Author Topic: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project  (Read 54435 times)

mikkel

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #175 on: September 24, 2020, 04:18:01 PM »
What is the supposed hardiness of US1279, US 1281 and US 1282?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 04:26:30 PM by mikkel »

kumin

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #176 on: September 24, 2020, 05:00:35 PM »
US 1279 has Changsha Mandarin as it's Citrus parent. US 1281 and US 1282 have Cleopatra Mandarin as their Citrus parent. Based on their parentage I believe the scales would tip in US 1279's favor in regards to cold hardiness. I haven't seen any trial results, however.
Additionally, Changsha is much sweeter than Cleopatra.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 07:53:28 AM by kumin »

tedburn

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #177 on: December 16, 2020, 04:53:48 PM »

I am not fully agree with your reasoning for rejection of of the progeny of direct hybrids between poncirus and edible citrus.
Of course, if you consider all the plants in F2, F3 and so on generations, they become more and more heterogeneous in respect of the presence of genes for hardiness, but due to the chromosome crossing-overs the two genomes will be progressively  present in the smaller and smaller intermingled fragments finally resulting in the separation of genes for bad  quality of poncirus fruits from the genes of hardiness in particular plants. This will be less possible in your pop3 and pop2 populations.

If you select for extreme hardiness ( comparable to that of poncirus ) in each subsequent generation of intercrossing inside pop5 population, and simultaneously keep selection for better and better  fruit quality, discarding the rest, you will produce hardy plants with higher and higher proportion of edible citrus genome.
Last year I obtained around  400 hybrid seedlings of 5star citrumelo crossed to Morton citrange and Batumi citrumelo. After selection for the absence of poncirus taste of leaves. I have around 50 plants of each cross growing in the ground.
Now I need a good cold winter  ;D to see to what extent cold hardiness  and nasty poncirus aftertaste are linked.

Hello Ilya, this seems to be interesting crosses, how have they developped, concerning fruit and winterhardiness ?
Best regards Frank

Ilya11

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #178 on: December 17, 2020, 04:07:56 AM »
If you select out of large hybrid populations, there are sufficient number of hardy plants. Absence of trifoliate taste can be also assured. But of course for sweetness, size of fruits etc., you need to wait for plant maturity. I have a dozen of plants that produce fruits, but have not yet attained my goal.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

tedburn

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2020, 07:42:44 AM »
thanks Ilya, always interesting to hear news of your huge
frosthardy citruscollection and your breeding work.

Walt

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #180 on: March 18, 2021, 03:13:12 PM »
Bad news. 
Most of North America was hit by a worse than usual artic storm a while back.  Until then, this winter had been much warmer than usual.  And my citrus had been mostly in my basement doing PK.  They would have been doing better with more lights and warmer temperature, but they were OK.
Then that storm hit.  Electricity was off for a while.  We turned on the gas cook stove and kept the kitchen and bathroom from freezing.  Extra blankets kept my wife and I from freezing.  But in the basement, things were not so good.  The pipes going to the laundry room froze and broke.  So $100 damage, more or less.  Not bad compared with reports from Texas of $1,000 and more damage to some houses. 
But my citrus wasn't so lucky.  I had thought them safe in the basement.  But un-adapted citrus, actively growing, aren't so hardy as citrus that gradually get used to the cold. 
US 1279, US 1281, and US1282 came through fine.  Many others didn't.  I lost many F2 seedlings.  Other breeding stock were lost.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #181 on: March 18, 2021, 03:41:22 PM »
I had thought them safe in the basement.  But un-adapted citrus, actively growing, aren't so hardy as citrus that gradually get used to the cold. 
I have learned this as well. I have some citrus in the garage, to be stored through the winter dormant. It remains cold in there, but never goes below freezing.
If you have citrus, even hardy citrus, in warm active growing conditions, they will not handle sudden cold very well. Even on hardy citrus and even temperatures that never actually go to freezing, it can still cause branch die-back in this situation.
It actually makes it much more difficult to transfer citrus that is under warm active growing conditions inside to growing outside than it is to transfer dormant citrus from the garage to outside. The dormant citrus in the cold garage can be transferred outside much earlier in the year than the active growing citrus in indoor warm conditions.
So there are some advantages and disadvantages to growing citrus indoors with warmth and light over the winter.

kumin

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #182 on: March 18, 2021, 04:33:43 PM »
Walt, so sorry to hear about your losses. Did  any particular parentages have better survival rates? Did 1279, 1281 and 1282 still have the original scions on, or had new rootstock growth already pushed?

Hopefully, you can rebuild your breeding stock. More important, I hope you don't suffer too much of a setback.

Pandan

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #183 on: March 18, 2021, 06:18:44 PM »
 I hate to hear of those losses and I hope you and yours are ok through that terrible storm. I know this may be painful but in regards to the breeding program / on the bright side you've narrowed down on cold-hardy genetics. I know of rocky mountain tomato breeders who've done similar things to select a line.

Walt

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #184 on: March 19, 2021, 03:23:58 PM »
What is the supposed hardiness of US1279, US 1281 and US 1282?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 04:26:30 PM by mikkel »

I don't knw.  I haven't seen anything published on their hardiness.  Al I know first hand is that they were unhurt by my winter damage this winter.  They were not at all dormant but survived a freeze that killed some other citrus.

Walt

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #185 on: March 19, 2021, 03:41:42 PM »
I'm doing my email etc. from a public library so my time is limited.  Yesterday I didn't get a chance to finish.
As I said, freezing broke some pipes.  But I spent some years as a plumbers assistant in my younger days, So all I had was cost of plastic pipes.  In other words, the only real damage was to the citrus.
So Many seedling look bad.  These were seedlings from US 852, Taitri, and Clemtriclem.  I am treating them like they are living, in hopes that some will come back from their roots.
I believe the following are dead, but I'm hoping some come back from roots.
Citrus medica seedling.  This is just a source for precocity.  Online reports (few) say it is very cold sensitive.
Finger lime on Ponciris.  I got it for precocity, but I became interested in it for itself.  The Ponciris rootsock came through in good health.
Unnamed kumquat.  I bought this because it was in bloom and cheap.  And I love kumquats.  I was suprised it was even hurt.  But I'm sure the temperature was very uneven in the basement.

shaneatwell

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #186 on: May 10, 2021, 11:53:06 AM »
citrus breeding question (not so much cold hardy), if I get open polinated citrus seedlings that germinate and are super pale, is that some indication of hybridization?
Shane

Ilya11

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #187 on: May 10, 2021, 01:30:37 PM »
In most cases albino seedlings come from  infection by Alternaria fungus.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

sc4001992

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #188 on: May 11, 2021, 07:22:09 AM »
How about the seedlings from variegated citrus fruits?
I have been growing these seeds and find a lot of albino seedlings, they will eventually die but still looking for the variegated seedling to stay alive. I don't think these albino are from infection by fungus.

Ilya11

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #189 on: May 11, 2021, 08:34:34 AM »
With  few exceptions variegated plants are periclinal chimers, albino seedlings in this case come from an embryonic layer  deficient in the ability to synthesize  chlorophyll. 
Best regards,
                       Ilya

sc4001992

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #190 on: May 11, 2021, 10:52:43 AM »
.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 07:16:11 AM by sc4001992 »

Ilya11

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #191 on: May 12, 2021, 03:23:57 AM »
Eventually these branches will die, but if the rootstock is vigorous and still growing you will probably have this curiosity for some time.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

sc4001992

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #192 on: May 12, 2021, 04:05:27 AM »
Ok, I'll see how long it lasts before it drys up and die. My lemon tree has similar branches and it has survived on the same tree for over 5yrs.

bussone

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #193 on: January 04, 2024, 10:34:39 AM »
Interesting articles in combo:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36905139/
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Pedigrees-of-Citrus-and-hybrids-including-P-trifoliata-in-their-pedigree-Those-having_fig1_347769166
https://irrec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/irrecifasufledu/docs/pdf/citrus-show/Progress-in-the-USDA-Scion-Breeding-Program.pdf

If I chain these together, I think my takeaway is that poncirus x duncan descendants have potential if crossed with Ambersweet. (I think 1-7-38 has duncan x poncirus in its ancestry)
The surprise may be crossing poncirus with nakon pomelo.

Florida tests, so no idea of cold tolerance.

mikkel

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #194 on: January 05, 2024, 11:19:08 AM »
SunDragon which has US119 in its pedigree is supposed to be HLB tolerant. It is fully edible.

just an idea about US119 if (only if) Duncan is heterozygotic for the acidless genes like in Siamese Sweet (although it isn`t offspring of Siamese Sweet) it would be likely to think that the combination of this Citrumelo hybrid with the acidless Succari Orange can led to a sweet US119.
(I know that the acid-free genes in pomelos are different from the acid-free genes in oranges, but as an abstract (simplified sweet / non sweet), it's a good idea of how backcrossing could lead to better hybrids).

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #195 on: January 22, 2024, 11:37:58 PM »
SunDragon which has US119 in its pedigree is supposed to be HLB tolerant. It is fully edible.

just an idea about US119 if (only if) Duncan is heterozygotic for the acidless genes like in Siamese Sweet (although it isn`t offspring of Siamese Sweet) it would be likely to think that the combination of this Citrumelo hybrid with the acidless Succari Orange can led to a sweet US119.
(I know that the acid-free genes in pomelos are different from the acid-free genes in oranges, but as an abstract (simplified sweet / non sweet), it's a good idea of how backcrossing could lead to better hybrids).

hello!  I know that the issue of genetics is complex, sometimes things appear that should not be there, like citranges that are partially zygotic but their parents are not, it is very strange.  But did you read that about "acid-free genes" being different in species? Did you read that in any scientific publication?  It would be good to share it because I am focused on that side to make the hybrids sweeter: ex: Nagami x orange without acid, Poncirus x (citrus without acid)

mikkel

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #196 on: January 23, 2024, 04:47:26 PM »
We discussed this in the acid-free thread. You can read it once. I know that Ilya mentioned it. Maybe you can find a link in this thread

https://citrusgrowersv2.proboards.com/thread/728/inheritance-low-acidity

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #197 on: January 24, 2024, 01:19:07 PM »
gracias, ahí leí. ahí está la teoría , veremos en un par de años (talvez 3 ) la práctica porque antes de leer eso polinice rampurg (que florece rápido, uno de mis híbridos de 2 años ya floreció) , con naranja sin ácido y C. limetoide, también tengo lima dulce ya florecida que es de semilla a ver qué sale su fruta. 😋veré que logro con mis prácticas, también polinice nagami con naranja sin ácido. lastima que con poncirus no agarró ninguna fruta. Este es un tema de años, tenga me paciencia y les podré dar mi experiencia, y si sale mal a lo sumo tendré variedades ácidas nuevas 😋. eso sí, hay que hacer una distracción ya que presta a la confusión: la antocianina no está relacionado ni a la domesticación ni al dulzor, solo es así en estos mutantes ya que hay variedades sin antocianina en sus brotes pero es absolutamente ácido , ej: rampurg, limón rugoso, mandarina silvestre y de pie de injerto, Pummelo ácido, citranges, citrumelos, Poncirus, kumquat, etc. así que si ven algo con antocianina en sus brotes que un plantin no la tiene... guardenlo!

mikkel

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #198 on: January 25, 2024, 02:28:38 AM »
I'll take the liberty of translating your text into English :)

thanks, there i read. there is the theory , we will see in a couple of years (maybe 3 ) the practice because before i read that i pollinate rampurg (which flowers fast, one of my 2 year old hybrids already flowered) , with acid free orange and C. limetoide, i also have sweet lime already flowered which is from seed to see what comes out its fruit. 😋I will see what I achieve with my practices, also pollinate nagami with acid free orange. too bad with poncirus did not grab any fruit. This is a matter of years, bear with me and I will be able to give you my experience, and if it goes wrong at most I will have new acid varieties 😋. that yes, we must make a distraction as it lends to confusion: anthocyanin is not related neither to domestication nor to sweetness, it is only so in these mutants as there are varieties without anthocyanin in their shoots but it is absolutely acidic , ex: rampurg, rough lemon, wild and graft-foot mandarin, acid Pummelo, citranges, citrumelos, Poncirus, kumquat, etc. so if you see something with anthocyanin in its buds that a seedling does not have..... save it!

Lauta_hibrid

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Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« Reply #199 on: January 27, 2024, 08:39:13 AM »
thanks mikkel!  Sorry, I didn't realize it and I wrote it without putting it through Google Translate 😅.  If strange things appear, it is surely because of the translator who usually does not understand Argentine expressions.  there I read both scientific works about and I see that yes... unfortunately the "acidless" trait is not inherited in the hybrids of limes, oranges and lemons without acid, but it is in the "C. maxima Siamese acidless", also codomina, so using it as a father or mother would give a "citrumelo" type with low acidity.  and that in F2 it could come out absolutely "without acid".... I know that C. maxima takes 7 years to produce flowers and fruit... I have a couple of 5 years in the RES technique (I call it cultivation vertical) and has not influenced early flowering even though the size I agreed to stimulate flowering grew (3.5 meters).  but hey, if everything goes well my plan is to get C.maxima siamese acidless, did anyone get it in the group?  because Riverside doesn't have buds for sale 🤦