Author Topic: Greenhouse recommendations. (Read 3278 times)

Longranger · « **on:** August 07, 2020, 12:56:16 PM »

My property in Southern California would benefit greatly From a greenhouse if I am going to bring my orchard to the next level. I have built and used an 8 x 12 foot double walled Polycarbonate greenhouse in the past. That would be too small for my anticipated needs. I am thinking about a house with 300 to 1000 square feet. Seeing what works for our many members in similar climates would help a lot. I am open to almost any design that is not a true eyesore. Could go the DIY route to save $$ but also open to having a specialty company install. I do not have a set price limit but would get emotional as costs topped $25,000. Don,t have to worry about getting approval from neighbors. Have read a fair amount and suspect a hoop house design with really good ventilation will give the best bang for my buck. All input appreciated.

Jaboticaba45 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2020, 02:03:43 PM »

I got myself a 20 by 28 from growers solution. Pretty cheap- about 2k but with heating and the other accessories it would be around 5k
It is made of galvanized steel pipes and the height is 12 feet at the center with 7 foot sidewalls.

Longranger · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2020, 03:24:40 PM »

That is definitely in the range I am looking for. What do you do for cooling? I really really really hate squirrels too.

spaugh · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2020, 04:06:58 PM »

I'm happy with my hoop house, you may have looked at it when you were here. For cooling, I just roll up the sides and leave it open half the year. And it has a fan and thermostat on it during winter to keep it at whatever temp I want.

I built if from scratch but they sell kits. I got a 20' hoop bender if you want to use it. It turns 1-5/8" fencing top rail pieces into hoops. 3 pieces of top rail makes one 10ft high, 20ft wide hoop.

Longranger · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2020, 04:41:23 PM »

I liked your hoop house a lot. Do you close it up to retain humidity during Santa Ana winds?

Building myself would be ideal in terms of cost and pride of ownership. Not sure yet if I could take on this project myself. Age(63) and limited construction skill set might take this project out of my comfort zone. At very least I would have someone else make a level pad, and need a couple of buddies to help with particularly heavy components. I will price out the scenarios and continue to educate myself before making a decision but would like to have the greenhouse up for this winter. One of the first things I will do after the house is built is wait for you to have your variety Pack pineapple slip deals. Have had only limited success growing pineapples outdoors.

Jaboticaba45 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2020, 04:57:05 PM »

Quote from: Longranger on August 07, 2020, 03:24:40 PM

That is definitely in the range I am looking for. What do you do for cooling? I really really really hate squirrels too.

Just building it now lol. During the summer I plan to take the film off. Will have to think of some vents too. It also has roll-up sides.

spaugh · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2020, 05:00:28 PM »

If theres a santa ana event you can partially close it and hose it down periodically or run mist nozzles off a garden hose.

I did use a high pressure mist system for a while but it is such a pain to own and maintain. It's way easier to keep it as low tech as possible and just open the house and use low pressure mist on those rare events if you need too.

If you have a dirt floor, it's going to stay cooler than concrete. Concrete expensive and will get dirty also. If it's all dirt, you can hose it and it drains and never gets dirty. Weeds do grow though.

Come by if you want to look at it more and discuss. I would be willing to help you, I like building stuff.

Longranger · « **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2020, 05:22:37 PM »

I was thinking decomposed granite or pea gravel for the floor. If dirt works just as well great. Why spend more?

Would like to visit you and get more ideas. Also pick up that recently grafted Pura Vida if it is far enough along.

spaugh · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2020, 05:33:16 PM »

Quote from: Longranger on August 07, 2020, 05:22:37 PM

I was thinking decomposed granite or pea gravel for the floor. If dirt works just as well great. Why spend more?

Would like to visit you and get more ideas. Also pick up that recently grafted Pura Vida if it is far enough along.

Getting some pure coarse DG with no silt in it from a rock supply would be awesome. A couple inches on top of leveled and packed soil would ideal. Mine is just the native DG type soil. Weeds grow in it that is the only pain. And it has low spots, when it rains hard theres puddles. If you can elevate the floor a few inches so no puddles form that's best.

I'll send you a message, just come by some morning if you would like before it gets hot.

brian · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2020, 07:22:17 PM »

If you are in southern california I doubt you need to go too crazy with your greenhouse. If anything I would focus on making it easy to cool. A hoop house with some kind of heater should be okay. I doubt you need an insulated foundation. Polycarbonate can't be rolled up like spaugh suggested, though it looks way nicer in my opinion. If you use polycarbonate you want a vented roof or something like that. Even in Pennsylvania mine gets really hot in summer and I need active cooling.

I have a Conley's hobby house kit and I am really happy with it. The kit was very high quality. They probably have vented roof designs. My build is documented here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18512.125

I have to worry about snow load where I am at, you could go with a much lighter design.

Longranger · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2020, 08:31:35 PM »

Beautiful greenhouse Brian. I agree that a more open design with
Less costly materials is called for in my climate. Not sure I would use any active heating In winter. We have little if any frost at my location. In winter I just want to shelter tender seedlings and plants that get root rot with prolonged cool wet days. The only reason for active heating would be if I try to grow some ultra tropicals. Summertime will probably call for fans and vents even with sides up. Depending on dimensions I might put shade cloth over a portion of the house to shelter seedlings from full sun. Lots of exciting possibilities.

brian · « **Reply #11 on:** August 08, 2020, 12:13:23 AM »

Quote from: spaugh on August 07, 2020, 04:06:58 PM

I built if from scratch but they sell kits. I got a 20' hoop bender if you want to use it. It turns 1-5/8" fencing top rail pieces into hoops. 3 pieces of top rail makes one 10ft high, 20ft wide hoop.

This is a really good idea. My brother was looking to build a cheap hoop house to extend the season, but we were shocked at how expensive the most basic frames cost compared to the cost of simple pipes/tubes from building supply stores. A pipe bending jig probably pays for itself the first run

SeaWalnut · « **Reply #12 on:** August 08, 2020, 03:44:04 AM »

If you are good at building i can reccomend you a geodesic dome like my greenhouse.
Due to the dome shape i realised that i dont need any cooling in the summer due to the chimney effect created by the 5 windows opened on the roof and entrance door opened.
I will still make a cooling sistems that will consist of a transparent waterfall integrated in the entrance door and with honney combs structures made from transparent plastic( like the regular evaporative cooling pannels just instead of cartboard infused with glass i will make my own DIY honney combs pannel from transparent plastic).
A geodesic dome like mein its not an easy build thogh.
A cheaper alternative for a dome would be the ziptiedomes system but you cant cover it in polycarbonate,just foil.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31675.0

Mark in Texas · « **Reply #13 on:** August 08, 2020, 11:19:32 AM »

Quote from: Longranger on August 07, 2020, 05:22:37 PM

I was thinking decomposed granite or pea gravel for the floor. If dirt works just as well great. Why spend more?

Would like to visit you and get more ideas. Also pick up that recently grafted Pura Vida if it is far enough along.

I am successful grafting, growing and producing citrus, avocado, mango, pineapple, etc. Dirt floor, bottomless Rootbuilder "pots", meaning they root into the native soil.

My new Aquafogger is the cat's meow. No maintenance compared to misting systems, no nozzles, draws on rainwater tanks using a self contained 1/2 HP pump/tank/switch.

30 X 36 X 18' H. Covered in corrugated Palram Dynaglas SolarSoft polycarb. Got at least 1,500 mixed citrus fruit off my key lime tree, am harvesting avocados, etc. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.msg240101#msg240101

If you can't find it here it doesn't exist. 1st PDF link. http://www.igcusa.com/catalogs/

Good luck!

Mark in Texas · « **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2020, 11:25:54 AM »

Brad, Jan Boyce graft is pushing nice on Sharwil. What a cocktail tree now - a large Sharwil grafted to Oro Negro green shoots with JB and Lamb Hass branches. Lamb is loaded.

Longranger · « **Reply #15 on:** August 08, 2020, 12:51:31 PM »

Thanks Mark. Your list provides a tremendous amount of information.

Daintree · « **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2020, 01:55:55 PM »

My STRONGEST recommendation is that you decide what size of greenhouse you think you will need, then DOUBLE it. If you have the room, TRIPLE it.
That would have saved me from adding on to mine, multiple times...

Cheers,
Carolyn

Longranger · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2020, 02:41:38 PM »

Oh boy. You are so right. As I look at hoop house prices, at least kits, the prices get significantly lower per square foot with larger structures. Very hard to predict what size I might want in a couple of years. Also I can envision a larger structure becoming my green man cave over the winter. I do have space to make a house way bigger than I think I need. Oh the temptation😈

Nyuu · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2020, 03:02:20 PM »

Making one yocan might be a little cheaper but a lot more work you can find a hoop house pipe bending some pipe and maybe 3 mil plastic and lastly all the gear fit test the pipes and Wood for the ends

spaugh · « **Reply #19 on:** August 08, 2020, 03:55:29 PM »

Standard hoop house best bang for the buck size is 20' wide x 50ft long. Thats a good size and most cost effective.

You wont wat to hang out in there in winter trust me, it will stay very hot even in winter.

Longranger · « **Reply #20 on:** August 08, 2020, 04:09:47 PM »

Hahaha. Winter gardening in the buff

Mark in Texas · « **Reply #21 on:** August 09, 2020, 07:57:50 AM »

Quote from: Daintree on August 08, 2020, 01:55:55 PM

My STRONGEST recommendation is that you decide what size of greenhouse you think you will need, then DOUBLE it. If you have the room, TRIPLE it.
That would have saved me from adding on to mine, multiple times...

Cheers,
Carolyn

Yep, I leave with bloody arms sometimes trying to worm my way thru the small space between a few citrus varieties with thorns and pitaya. Folks MUST give tropical fruit trees plenty of space which eats up real estate.

And to save on heating don't go with 10' columns like I did for folks that live in temperate climes. 6 - 8' is fine depending on your goals. Having said that I trim my Reed Avocado tree down to 10' about 3X a year. Sharwil, Ardith....they're all getting huge.

brian · « **Reply #22 on:** August 09, 2020, 01:24:02 PM »

One thing I learned from my temperate orchard is I am too lazy to deal with spraying and picking fruit that requires a ladder to reach. Now I cut back any limbs reach out of height. My greenhouse roof is about 9ft tall at the eaves and 15ft in the center (where I have ceiling fans), which feels perfect for me.

Longranger · « **Reply #23 on:** August 10, 2020, 07:34:08 PM »

Good orchard management Brian. In the past I have let some trees get out of control. It never caused me much grief mainly because I was pretty good on a ladder. The current orchard, now about 80 trees, is almost all small stuff planted this year. They will be trained to allow easier harvest than my last orchard. Also better shape and structure for long term harvests and safety.

growing a few trees in the greenhouse that will not thrive outdoors will be gratifying. Amoung those will be Guanabana, star fruit, and many others that have not survived the winter for me outside. Almost all of those were lost to a combination of cold and wet feet, even with what I thought was great drainage. Been continuing to mull over greenhouse size. It has grown to between 1000 and 1500 square feet. That should allow the luxury of quite a few trees to help shade seedlings or even grow some ultra tropical understory plants.

brian · « **Reply #24 on:** August 10, 2020, 11:20:17 PM »

Having a greenhouse really is fantastic. Im sure you won’t regret building one.

nattyfroootz · « **Reply #25 on:** August 11, 2020, 01:38:39 AM »

What are people's preferred or most optimal way to cool down a greenhouse?

I'm about to rebuild a 55 x 70 AgraTech Solar 18 with ridge vents and kind of am not too sure.

brian · « **Reply #26 on:** August 11, 2020, 11:03:45 AM »

In order of efficiency...

- Natural air convection is the best (roof vents + side vents), openable roof, rolled up sides, etc.
- Mechanical venting next (fans)
- Evaporative cooling (foggers, evap pads, misters, sprinkler running inside)
- And actual air conditioning would be he most expensive way I guess.

You can use shade cloth to reduce cooling needs.

Mark in Texas · « **Reply #27 on:** August 21, 2020, 07:54:04 AM »

Quote from: brian on August 10, 2020, 11:20:17 PM

Having a greenhouse really is fantastic. Im sure you won’t regret building one.

Still lots of maintenance like pressure blasting mold, fungus and dirt off the covering every few years. Simple Green sells a 1 gal. jug of a landscape friendly detergent that works really well.

Also I think a greenhouse amplifies insect problems and sometimes diseases. I am forever fighting mealybug which is almost out of control and to a much lesser degree mites and scale. Scale is really bad on citrus. Also, we have a grasshopper epidemic stripping all shrubs. I lost a huge afghan pine because they ate the bark off the smaller branches. I kill a dozen in the greenhouse every day.

Mealybug on mango. I just wipe it off. Doesn't hurt the fruit quality, just a PITA. Shows up on the back side where you can't see, like where the fruit touches the sides.

brian · « **Reply #28 on:** August 21, 2020, 03:28:31 PM »

Yes I had huge issues with cottony cushion scale, mealybugs, and spider mites in my greenhouse. Repeat, strong doses of imidacloprid finally got rid of the CCS, and I think the mealybugs (crossing fingers), but I have yet to find anything to eradicate spider mites only suppress them.

When I move my container trees out of the greenhouse their insect problems mostly go away. Rain & predators, I assume.

Mark in Texas · « **Reply #29 on:** August 24, 2020, 11:09:58 AM »

Quote from: brian on August 21, 2020, 03:28:31 PM

Yes I had huge issues with cottony cushion scale, mealybugs, and spider mites in my greenhouse. Repeat, strong doses of imidacloprid finally got rid of the CCS, and I think the mealybugs (crossing fingers), but I have yet to find anything to eradicate spider mites only suppress them.

When I move my container trees out of the greenhouse their insect problems mostly go away. Rain & predators, I assume.

Forbid 4F is the silver bullet for mites and white flies and has excellent residual qualities. Expensive as hell too. Daily blasts of water will kill them too.

Francis_Eric · « **Reply #30 on:** August 24, 2020, 03:59:14 PM »

Quote from: brian on August 11, 2020, 11:03:45 AM

In order of efficiency...

- Natural air convection is the best (roof vents + side vents), openable roof, rolled up sides, etc.
- Mechanical venting next (fans)
- Evaporative cooling (foggers, evap pads, misters, sprinkler running inside)
- And actual air conditioning would be he most expensive way I guess.

You can use shade cloth to reduce cooling needs.

I always Wondered If you rented a backhoe , and dug a root cellar
if that would keep it more cool?

All I ever read about green houses is a 70's book a long while back
Just here, and there ,
but there was a thing about A house with in a house circulating the air from the Basement on TV.

Francis_Eric · « **Reply #31 on:** August 24, 2020, 04:01:36 PM »

OH a passive house

Not sure if something like that would help , but a interesting idea .

Does anyone else know about the air circulation recycling in a house inside a house?
(it was on TV Not much into watching TV, but (maybe if hungry) as a caregiver Seen this 15 years or so ago
(before a entertainment company bought out the science channel it was discovery nation I believe)

As I remember

The house within a Had a Hot attic , hollow walls,
the hot Air would rise to the attic, but the cool basement
would re circulate the hot air with a fan back around ,
and vents were designed to bring the air back into the house.

So I wonder about those Japanese double walled green houses
wonder if they have done something like this?
Anyone Heard of it before.

Mark in Texas · « **Reply #32 on:** August 28, 2020, 08:48:52 AM »

Quote from: nattyfroootz on August 11, 2020, 01:38:39 AM

What are people's preferred or most optimal way to cool down a greenhouse?

I'm about to rebuild a 55 x 70 AgraTech Solar 18 with ridge vents and kind of am not too sure.

I have a similar design, a Nexus Zephyr. After years of trials my new Aquafogger GT-500 running off of sustainable rainwater is the only way to go. My well water is too hard.

Fans/wetpads, swamp coolers and high pressure nozzles are crap in comparison to the efficiency and no maintenance of this fogger.

News:

Author Topic: Greenhouse recommendations. (Read 3278 times)