The Tropical Fruit Forum
Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: Marcin on September 16, 2018, 08:41:36 AM
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Hi. I'd like to share my experiences on crossing kumquat with trifoliate orange.
I've heard many times that it's a really difficult cross to make, but I still wanted to try. So last year I've been making some pollinations.
Nagami kumquat x Flying dragon Poncirus
I used two different Nagami cultivars as the mother plants. Pollinated flowers set fruit easily, and seed set proved not bad. The seedlings germinated quickly, but soon some of them refused growing. Still, the rest is growing fine up till now and I hope they will stay like that. ;)
(https://images89.fotosik.pl/37/bc3e66e3c63c235am.jpg) (https://www.fotosik.pl/zdjecie/bc3e66e3c63c235a)
For comparison - standard Poncirus seedling on the left, Nagami x Poncirus on the right:
(https://images91.fotosik.pl/38/bfc3517414fe4c44m.jpg) (https://www.fotosik.pl/zdjecie/bfc3517414fe4c44)
Reale mandarinquat x Flying dragon Poncirus
In this cross, fruit and seed set were also not bad, but most of the seedlings proved weak and generally aberrant. Some had strange, narrow leaves, and some were even monofoliate. Maybe these abnormalities are connected with the fact that Reale is triploid. Still, I think that with a bit of luck this cross is worth a try.
(https://images84.fotosik.pl/1017/d518672d9f86bee2m.jpg) (https://www.fotosik.pl/zdjecie/d518672d9f86bee2)
So to sum up, I think that crossing kumquat with the trifoliate orange is not such a bad idea. There's a good chance of getting a really cold hardy citrus with quite edible fruits.
What do you think? Have you tried making similar crosses? If yes, have you met any obstacles?
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I have never tried this cross but I will follow your work with great interest! Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks for your report! Very interesting.
Could you please explain the other pictures on your photo account. There are many interesting pictures.
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It is good to hear that you have made these crosses successfully. I crossed Meiwa with Poncirus without fruit set. Meiwa has hundreds of tiny flowers, almost all of them never set fruit even under normal circumstances.
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You might get something even cold hardier on the second cross, that is, if you try to grow a seedling of the poncirus x kumquat hybrid. That would be due to possibility of recessive genes or weeding out a dominant gene that may be detrimental.
Unfortunately I would expect a poncirus x kumquat hybrid to be highly nucellar. You'd have to go through a lot of seeds to find a zygotic one, if there were any.
I've heard that kumquat x Satsuma can be pretty cold hardy, down 14 degrees F.
Kumquat is usually always zygotic, so you could always perform a second generation cross by using it as the fruit parent.
That is kumquat x (kumquat x poncirus)
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Very interesting Marcin, please keep us updated on the growth of these seedlings.
Do you remember what was the embryo color of hybrid seeds- green or white?
Have you castrated the Nagami flowers? I noticed that when it is flowering alone there are virtually no seeds formed. That is why this summer I pollinated non-castrated Nagami with Swamp Lemon, we shall see if there will be some hybrids.
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Maybe it will be similar to a citrangequat but with more poncyrus traits.
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Thanks for all your answers.
Mikkel, I've added descriptions to the photos.
Hardyvermont, this could also mean cross incompatibility. I'll try to check that when my Meiwa flowers. Thanks for sharing your observation.
Ilya11, I think the seeds looked more white than typical kumquat seeds, but I haven't removed the seed coats so can't be sure. Yes, I have castrated the flowers.
Nagami - Swamp lemon hybrid sounds good! I hope the cross will succeed.
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Thank you
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Nagami x Poncirus seedlings are changing colors.
(https://images90.fotosik.pl/429/042f16d73c5612a4m.jpg) (https://www.fotosik.pl/zdjecie/042f16d73c5612a4) (https://images89.fotosik.pl/430/4859f0ac568c6eb4m.jpg) (https://www.fotosik.pl/zdjecie/4859f0ac568c6eb4) (https://images89.fotosik.pl/430/55b883b9ce90356am.jpg) (https://www.fotosik.pl/zdjecie/55b883b9ce90356a)
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Thank you for keeping us updated
Your work is very interesting.
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thanks for posting!
Do you still have the Reale mandarinquat x Flying dragon Poncirus habrids?
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Mikkel, unfortunately they were weak and died. It's very rare to get a healthy seedling from Reale.
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I'm always glad to learn about someone growing Poncirus hybrids. Please do keep us informed of results.
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Hello Marcin,
interessting cross.
Which temperatures in this winter did your
Kumquat x Poncirus take ?
Best regards Frank
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Frank, sorry for delayed reply. Last winter these hybrids were exposed to only slight frost, like -5 or -6 C, of course with no damage but that doesn't say much. This year I planted them inground, so the winter will be a real test for them.
They have an interesting trait in that the leaves change colors, but not all drop immediately. Some of them can last on the plant through the winter and become mostly green again. The leaves were already reddish in October, and many still hang on the plants now in the beginning of December and keep the color.
End of October:
(https://citri.pl/zdjecia/20211027_134350_449x599.jpg) (https://citri.pl/zdjecia/20211027_134350.jpg)
(https://citri.pl/zdjecia/20211027_134211_577x600.jpg) (https://citri.pl/zdjecia/20211027_134211.jpg)
Yesterday:
(https://citri.pl/zdjecia/20211206_130223_450x600.jpg) (https://citri.pl/zdjecia/20211206_130223.jpg)
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Thank you Marcin, very interesting plant and nice pictures with the reddisch leaves.
Curious how it develops in ground - good succes and regards Frank
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Thank you, Marcin for the nice pictures. That is interesting how the plants are half way between decidious and evergreen.
I have a Sanford Segentrange (noname) that gets slitely yellow leaves in autumn that are kept throughout winter and are dropped the following spring when new leaves develop. Its behaviour is somewhat similar to that of your hybrids.
Some of my Kucle (= Clementine x Fortunella) x Poncirus hybrids get yellow leaves, too, but not so constistently as yours.
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Very nice, did you graft or root incase your original plant dies?
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Excellent photos, Marcin. Your plants show both very good lighting and nutritional conditions. Finding a percentage of seedlings to be weak and unthrifty is to be expected in distant Citrus crosses, especially in F2 hybrids. Your citrumquats should carry the genetics needed for selecting even hardier F2 and F3 progeny within mass populations, especially after zygotic seed parents have been identified and utilized.
Nucellar parents can obviously serve as pollen parents, but zygotic x zygotic crosses are preferable in my opinion, as the subsequent progeny is probable to also be highly to completely zygotic.
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The red foliage phase is rather nice.
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The nice red color is inherited from Flying Dragon, normal Trifoliate and its hybrids have only yellow-orange autumn color.
I live in a similar climate and I think our winters are too much for F1 Poncirus hybrids. Marcin, I would suggest taking some cuttings a storing them in a refrigerator for grafting, if you do not have backup grafted plants already...one night with -18°C or - 20°C will most likely destroy them completely...
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The nice red color is inherited from Flying Dragon, normal Trifoliate and its hybrids have only yellow-orange autumn color.
Rootstock seedlings of the same strain of normal trifoliata are fairly variable as to autumn colour, and to some level when they change colour and how long they hold autumn colour. Weak seedlings, off types and runts can be clearly different in their colour and timing of change.
There are some oranges and reds possible, even verging on maroon.
Stressed or neglected trees, underfertilized etc can also turn colour earlier.
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Thank you all for the replies.
Till, it will be interesting to track your progress with Kucle x Poncirus hybrids.
Vnomonee, Jibro, I'm prepared that they can be harmed or killed by more severe frost. I've made backup copies of the three most promising plants.
Kumin, I find your breeding work really impressive. Maybe when I obtain fruits from these citrumquats, I'll manage to make a selection project similar to yours, although on a much smaller scale.
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Marcin, I will keep you updated with my Kucle x Poncirus. I have not much new information at the moment. Growth was not very good this year. Earth problems. The earth in which they prospered last year had seemingly changed its chemistry this year. I grafted some seedlings on older plants in order to fasten up blooming and planted most seedings in ground. (I have kept the garden soil in my winter garden, so that it is a real garden.) They should grow much better the next year.
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The citrumquats have survived winter inground. The lowest temperature was -13/-14 C, or possibly a bit lower. They have been covered with peat, rafia, straw and white cloth. It seems they have inherited the strong dormancy trait from kumquat. They are growing now but with a delay compared to Poncirus.
Amber. New growth is appearing. No bark damage.
(https://roslinycytrusowe.pl/zdjecia/amber01.06.22_m.jpg) (https://roslinycytrusowe.pl/zdjecia/amber01.06.22.jpg)
Maroon. This is the most vigorous one. New growth is appearing. Also no bark damage.
(https://roslinycytrusowe.pl/zdjecia/maroon01.06.22_m.jpg) (https://roslinycytrusowe.pl/zdjecia/maroon01.06.22.jpg)
Carmine. Growing but has some bark damage and significant twig damage.
(https://roslinycytrusowe.pl/zdjecia/carmine01.06.22_m.jpg) (https://roslinycytrusowe.pl/zdjecia/carmine01.06.22.jpg)
For comparison citsuma Prague has frozen nearly to the ground level. Only the rootstock and a few centimeters of Prague wood are alive. The rootstock is not pure Poncirus, but a citrange or citrumelo.
(https://roslinycytrusowe.pl/zdjecia/praga21.05.22_m.jpg) (https://roslinycytrusowe.pl/zdjecia/praga21.05.22.jpg)
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Awesome, thanks for sharing.
Also do you think the citsuma died back because the rootstock didn't go dormant? I am worried about mine outside in zone 7a if it's going to die like this from only -14c! But mine is on pure poncirus.
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It might be due to the rootstock. The plant has been inground since 2018, but it usually freezes in winter and then regrows. Grafting it on Poncirus would be a good idea.
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next step: backcross to Kumquat :)
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Mikkel, for my zone 6 climate I'd rather grow F2 generation of these citrumquats. Or try to produce hybrids of these citrumquats with another F1 citrus-Poncirus hybrid. There should be some very hardy plants among big populations.
But for a warmer climate a backcross to kumquat might be good too.
Now I hope that the few following winters will be relatively mild. Then the plants should survive and maybe will flower. No idea whether the fruits will ripen here, but at least pollen should be usable for breeding.
Another possibility is that someone else will obtain fruits of these citrumquats faster, growing them in a warmer zone or in a greenhouse. Then I'd be interested in getting the seeds.
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Hello, Marcin!
You have excellent results.
In the future you can try the cross of your citrquats with the ichangquat that Ilya has. In addition to good winter hardiness, it has a short fruit ripening period.
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I think the advantage of backcrossing to kumquat is to improve the fruit while reinforcing the good winter dormancy....
For winter hardiness, of course, it would need a strong selection from many seedlings. Most of them will not be hardy enough... So far the theory :)
The practical side is that they must first mature and form fruit.
I could imagine that a foil greenhouse could already work well with you, the summers with you are warmer than here and a foil greenhouse could push them properly. Just as @kumin has done. He has already had some flowering trees after 3 years that way.
I also dream of a garden in the south where I can raise the seedlings until they bloom.... or a cooperation with someone in the south..
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BorisR, thanks for the reply. Do you know the ripening time of that ichangquat? Is it shorter than that of kumquat (5-6 months)?
Mikkel, yes in theory with strong selection you can get such a backcross nearly as hardy as the original F1 citrumquat. The question is what is the maximum frost hardiness of these citrumquats? After this winter it's not bad, the two plants had only damaged leaves and a few twigs. But a stronger winter may prove that their hardiness is insufficient for my climate.
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Do you know the ripening time of that ichangquat?
It seems about 4 months. Ilya will tell you more precisely if he reads this topic. However, Ilya mentioned that this ichangquat may turn out to be a triploid, because its seeds are very rare.
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What do you think about Fortunella Hindsii, it ripens quickly but the taste is like acidic carrot lol. It's a very hardy kumquat supposedly taking down to -15c... I haven't tried to verify this yet. An idea I have is pollinate with poncirus, grow out the tree then backcross that to a sweet tasting kumquat like Meiwa. so offspring would be 1/4 poncirus and 3/4 kumquat. Thomasville citrangequat is 1/4 poncirus 1/4 orange and only 1/2 kumquat it can die to the ground in zone 7a also the fruit do not ripen until way past hard freezes here so I am not interested in this particular plant.
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4 months is fast. It seems an interesting citrus hybrid.
Fortunella hindsii is a good candidate for breeding in my opinon, thanks to its very short juvenile period. Even its small seedlings can fruit. I don't have pure hindsii, also I won't judge on its hardiness, but I've produced some hybrids with hindsii descendants - procimequat and Reale mandarinquat. One seedling Nagami kumquat x Procimequat has already flowered at a low node. So there's hope that the fast flowering trait from hindsii can be passed to the next generations of hybrids.
It would be worth to try combining hindsii genes with Poncirus. I wish you good luck with your plans!
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Great news, Marcin!
My ideas to the suggestions made here:
--> Ilya said that it is almost impossible to create hybrids with his ichangquat. So I would not invest the time. A better idea might be to cross with pure C. ichangensis or Yuzu. A yuzu seedling of mine has withstand late frost of almost -10°C at the end of april without twig damage while poncirus lost almost all buds and almost all the growth of last year. Yuzu has also a more or less edible rind.
--> A back cross to edible poncirus might also be good.
--> I am a bit skeptical about the idea of backcrossing to kumquat. The heat requirement of kumquat is very high. That might be detrimental for your climate. We want plants that have a good dormancy (better then poncirus) but plants that don't stay dormant till summer as does kumquat in my climate (cool atlantic climate). I have though no experience with F. hindsii. It might perform better.
But as always: Theory is nice but experiments are better. Your cross has already falsified a time honored theory that poncirus and kumquat do not hybridize.
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I like Meiwa. I wonder if the skin on a Meiwa/poncirus hybrid will taste nice. Or it might taste like poncirus. Won’t know til y’a pop it in your mouth and chew it up!
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4 months is fast. It seems an interesting citrus hybrid.
Refreshed my memory. On the Ukrainian forum (https://citrusforum.org.ua/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=89&p=11121&hilit=%D0%98%D1%87%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82#p11121), Ilya posted photos of ichangquat fruits, which ripened in about 2.5 months.
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The big disadvantage of hindsii is that probably only the tetraploid version is available. At least I have not seen the diploid version yet. But this would inevitably lead to triploid offspring. Only in rare cases can triploids produce seed. I believe procimquat is such a case (but I'm not sure if my memory is correct)
Also other kumquat types are supposed to be early flowering, maybe other types are suitable?
@Marcin I have different hindsii from different sources. If you are interested I will send you some budwood.
@Till backcrossing with kumquat would also have to include selection against such strong dormancy. But in Marcin's case, he is in a more continental climate with warmer summers than our climate. That might be less of a problem for him?
But the disadvantage is indeed that large quantities of seedlings are needed to select for these traits. And that, as always, is a problem.
Backcrossing with Poncirus is disadvantageous in my eyes because Poncirus is already sufficiently winter hardy, but the backcrosses are very unlikely to have improved fruit (it is still not impossible of course) a backcross with Kumquat would first improve fruit quality. With simultaneous strong selection for winter hardiness.
In theority, backcrossing the hardy BC1 hybrids would then have to be done again with kumquat, until winter hardiness and other traits are transferred.
I think this is at least one way, but not the only one.... for time reasons alone, I would go both ways. And it is theory, there may well be other ways.
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I like Meiwa. I wonder if the skin on a Meiwa/poncirus hybrid will taste nice. Or it might taste like poncirus. Won’t know til y’a pop it in your mouth and chew it up!
Meiwa is the most valuable kumquat in my eyes. It is very tasty, much better than the varieties from the supermarket.
But Meiwa is supposed to be strongly nucellar. Since Poncirus is often too nucellar, it would be quite a challenge to produce hybrids. But it should work with a large number of seedlings....
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Till, it would be interesting to produce a hybrid of citrumquat with yuzu. Or maybe it would be even better to produce a hybrid like: (Kumquat x Poncirus) x (Yuzu x Poncirus). Then in theory you could find a seedling with all Poncirus hardiness + additional dormancy and fruit quality traits from kumquat and yuzu.
BorisR, thanks for the info. 2.5 months is super fast ripening for a citrus. It's a pity that this variety is problematic in breeding.
Mikkel, triploids with hindsii parentage can be fertile. So triploidy is a problem in this case but only to some extent. Reale (clementine 'Monreal' x F. hindsii) is triploid and it produces zygotic seeds and marginally viable pollen. The original procimequat is triploid and is known to produce seeds. The procimequat available in Europe might be either triploid or judging on the very thick leaves it might have also higher ploidy level, it produces nucellar seeds and viable pollen.
Yes, there are also other kumquat types that are said to flower fast from seed. Like Meiwa, Fukushu, maybe also others. It would be good to select the earliest flowering specimens among them to use them in breeding.
By the way, I think backcrossing works best when you want to transfer a single gene responsible for some trait. Here there are many genes responsible for frost hardiness, dormancy and fruit quality that we want to combine in one plant. So backcrossing might not be the best option.
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What made you think it is diploid? I was thinking about it too, but Lenzi told me he has no clue what is the caes with these both...
I found similiar types (which might be the same, who knows? ) via a friend in a small nursery. I keep collecting hindsiis :)
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I was talking to Bernhard Voss. He said the one with thorns is the diploid one. the tetraploid one has no thorns. At least one of these should be the diploid one.
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Finally I got both hindsii types. The thornless one and the one with thorns.
It remains to find out which is the diploid type.
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What made you think it is diploid?
Oh, sorry! I didn't see what you were asking me. Well, I certainly don't know that any of them are diploid, but I assume that the one that is "double" is diploid, and the one that is "wild" is tetraploid. The diploid seems to have slightly larger fruits. I don't know about the thorns. I read somewhere that even in the wild there is a diploid form, but the Swingle got a tetraploid form when describing the species. I wanted to order both from Lenzi this spring, but due to the events taking place in our country, they canceled delivery this year.
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The Riverside citrus collection has 2 accessions of hindsii. Each came to them labled as tetrapliud. Chromosomr counts of both showed they are diploid.
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I will pollinate both and see what comes out.... but it might take a while before the first fruits appear.
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Just did Hindsii x poncirus+ (dry pollen)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MnCYpYyD/20220829-150440-HDR.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MnCYpYyD)
I have a little bonsai/ year old hindsii cutting noticed several flowers today.
My eyes hurt. Biggest issue I had was the dry pollen would not adhere to the paint brush
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interesting! keep us updated.
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Marcin, did I already write that I have Yuzu x poncirus? The seedling first grew a bit slower than Yuzu and then was extremly slow growing but healthy. I repotted it into citrus earth from a building store this year. Leaves are darker green now. (They never looked bad though.) It is to hope that it will finally grow to an exeptable extent. Winter dormancy seems to be like Yuzu. Roots had no problems with root rod in loamy garden soil. Leaves are almost 100% monofoliate.
I hope I can one day send you pollen.
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Can I ask a question about my Flying Dragon tree. I have one branch with Yuzu grafted (10yrs old graft) and this year I had fruits of the FD and Yuzu. I saved the seeds from my FD fruits (lots). If I plant these, will there be any cross from the Yuzu, and if there is how can I tell from looking at the seedling.
Here's my FD seeds (1700). Thanks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9X9Q5THK/FD-Seeds1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Potentially, it is possible to find such a hybrid, FD is giving a decent proportion of zygotic seeds.
But at least in my area, there is not much overlap in flowering time between these varieties.
Also, the lack of bees in early spring could be a hindering factor.
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Ilya11, ok, thanks for the info.
My FD tree which is old, had flowers and fruits this year that overlapped the Yuzu flowers and now I have fruits on my Yuzu grafts that should ripen in another month. In addition to the Yuzu, I have many other citrus varieties which are grafted on my old Bearss lime tree which is only 10 feet away from this FD tree. On the Bearss lime tree I have Sumo, Eureka lemon, var. Valencia orange, var. Hamilin, var. Blood orange, Australian finger lime, Hybrid key lime, Sanbokan, Pink Lemonade, NZ lemon, Tarocco #7 blood orange, Prague Citsuma, Kabosu, Satsuma mandarin, Harvey lemon, and Volckamer lemon. Some are fruiting, would any of these naturally cross with my FD?
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Some are fruiting, would any of these naturally cross with my FD?
Of course, potentially there are no insurmountable barriers between these varieties.
But usually one will need an excess of foreign pollen to achieve hybridation. And again, poncirus varieties are usually flowering few weeks ahead of others.