Author Topic: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch  (Read 1607 times)

Plantinyum

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Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« on: April 16, 2021, 04:19:48 PM »
Is anyone using forest ground litter as mulch, I have used pine needles as mulch for my tomatoes and have also been adding larger coarse particles of this to my potting soil for my potted tropicals. I havent seen any negative effects showing on any plant , and I wondered if someone else has been using such materials for mulching...
I placed a thick layer in the greenhouse where I will plant my tropical fruit plants , cherymoya ,dragonfruit etc etc..the litter is full of bio life and think this will really benefit my plants .





« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 04:24:31 PM by Plantinyum »

pineislander

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2021, 09:05:09 PM »
For those of us in Florida mulch is one of the most available sources of organic matter. Since we have a fetish about keeping yards clean most citizens carefully gather all organic material that accumulates on their property and give it to the government waste collectors to take away and grind up. Tree trimming is also a passion and since our roadways are often lined with trees and electric wires in the same space these must be pruned and chipped into mulch. Periodically we have hurricanes and great amounts are processed.
So yes, many of us use mulch here in Florida even though we don't generally harvest it from forests.

I can't seem to get enough. To me it is an energy source for soil building, mostly carbon but also with plenty of minerals. Here was my largest delivery after Hurricane Irma:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnaLWHgib5A&t


In some areas private pine forests are harvested for pine straw which is sold after collection with specialized equipment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrTyeIRFyFQ
 

Plantinyum

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2021, 01:40:04 AM »
For those of us in Florida mulch is one of the most available sources of organic matter. Since we have a fetish about keeping yards clean most citizens carefully gather all organic material that accumulates on their property and give it to the government waste collectors to take away and grind up. Tree trimming is also a passion and since our roadways are often lined with trees and electric wires in the same space these must be pruned and chipped into mulch. Periodically we have hurricanes and great amounts are processed.
So yes, many of us use mulch here in Florida even though we don't generally harvest it from forests.

I can't seem to get enough. To me it is an energy source for soil building, mostly carbon but also with plenty of minerals. Here was my largest delivery after Hurricane Irma:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnaLWHgib5A&t


In some areas private pine forests are harvested for pine straw which is sold after collection with specialized equipment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrTyeIRFyFQ
 
this I very nice to have such quantityes of mulch available when in need , do they give it for free ?? Here I can also buy mulch from different companies, but it is generally costly , so I prefer to take it for free from the forest. An additional well known benefit is weed control, I doubt that any weed will manage to grow trough the layer I have placed.


lol in the first video, that is one hell of a mulch pile, cant imagine the work that went in to spread it. In the forest, right under the mulch there are a few inches of really dark, airy and organically rich soil layer, I use this layer as a main ingredient in my homemade potting mix, plants love it. I have also found that this same layer in pine forests is better for this purpose ,compared to the same in deciduous forests, the pine one is much more darker and airy.

I didnt know that collecting pine straw was a thing ....
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 01:49:16 AM by Plantinyum »

Elopez2027@aol.com

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2021, 07:51:38 AM »
A very profitable thing.

850FL

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2021, 10:04:37 AM »
For those of us in Florida mulch is one of the most available sources of organic matter. Since we have a fetish about keeping yards clean most citizens carefully gather all organic material that accumulates on their property and give it to the government waste collectors to take away and grind up. Tree trimming is also a passion and since our roadways are often lined with trees and electric wires in the same space these must be pruned and chipped into mulch. Periodically we have hurricanes and great amounts are processed.
So yes, many of us use mulch here in Florida even though we don't generally harvest it from forests.

I can't seem to get enough. To me it is an energy source for soil building, mostly carbon but also with plenty of minerals. Here was my largest delivery after Hurricane Irma:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnaLWHgib5A&t


In some areas private pine forests are harvested for pine straw which is sold after collection with specialized equipment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrTyeIRFyFQ

Well said!! Some tree trimming/chipping companies will give you entire truck loads for free! I have a routine of scouring the neighborhood for bags of pine straw and leaves. After i empty the bags I recycle them at walmart. No one has a problem with that, been doing it 5 years. Many plants respond with enormous growth, must be all the humic acids and microbes and fungi. Although i generally stay away from grass trimmings because so many people tend to use pesticides and herbicides on their lawns. Or, i might dump them around the perimeters of the property where there are only ornamentals. Also all the coffee shops save big bags of grounds for me, like every day type thing. It takes a couple months or at least a few hard storms to drain a lot of the caffeine and tannins out to make em useful though, but after 9-12 months they are very rich soil. also you want to layer brown leaves, mulch, or pine straw on top of the grass trimming and coffee grounds to help them decompose properly. I make mounds of all this within a couple feet of each sapling, so the fresh stuff isnt exactly over the main root mass, but close enough so the roots will find their way to it by the time it all breaks down (and so that you dont have to waste time and energy shoveling decomposed dirt out of some main mulch pile)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 10:07:44 AM by 850FL »

Plantinyum

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2021, 12:53:02 PM »
For those of us in Florida mulch is one of the most available sources of organic matter. Since we have a fetish about keeping yards clean most citizens carefully gather all organic material that accumulates on their property and give it to the government waste collectors to take away and grind up. Tree trimming is also a passion and since our roadways are often lined with trees and electric wires in the same space these must be pruned and chipped into mulch. Periodically we have hurricanes and great amounts are processed.
So yes, many of us use mulch here in Florida even though we don't generally harvest it from forests.

I can't seem to get enough. To me it is an energy source for soil building, mostly carbon but also with plenty of minerals. Here was my largest delivery after Hurricane Irma:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnaLWHgib5A&t


In some areas private pine forests are harvested for pine straw which is sold after collection with specialized equipment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrTyeIRFyFQ

Well said!! Some tree trimming/chipping companies will give you entire truck loads for free! I have a routine of scouring the neighborhood for bags of pine straw and leaves. After i empty the bags I recycle them at walmart. No one has a problem with that, been doing it 5 years. Many plants respond with enormous growth, must be all the humic acids and microbes and fungi. Although i generally stay away from grass trimmings because so many people tend to use pesticides and herbicides on their lawns. Or, i might dump them around the perimeters of the property where there are only ornamentals. Also all the coffee shops save big bags of grounds for me, like every day type thing. It takes a couple months or at least a few hard storms to drain a lot of the caffeine and tannins out to make em useful though, but after 9-12 months they are very rich soil. also you want to layer brown leaves, mulch, or pine straw on top of the grass trimming and coffee grounds to help them decompose properly. I make mounds of all this within a couple feet of each sapling, so the fresh stuff isnt exactly over the main root mass, but close enough so the roots will find their way to it by the time it all breaks down (and so that you dont have to waste time and energy shoveling decomposed dirt out of some main mulch pile)
in my country if I ordered a truckload of mulch it would cost me a fortune. Here no one cares if a tree in the city is sick, not well shaped or whatever, they only trim it if it falls and blocks a road..lol .Most of BG is like this ,I think this is the problem why u have to pay for your mulch here, esthetic  does not matter, so there is a shortage of supply.

For the coffee grounds, I always take the leftover grounds from my mother's morning coffee , and use it on my potted plants straight on the soil surface, have never had any problem with this thought the amount is very small , I would imagine with a thick pile right on a root zone it would maybe cause a problem?

pineislander

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2021, 07:56:04 AM »
Our bounty is a legacy of our affluence and Bulgaria's dearth is a legacy of socialism. I'm not counting on our cheap mulch continuing, I currently pay the tree trimmers $20USD per load about 5 yards. I expect that eventually this resource will get more costly and demand to go up.
I'm working on my last acre of land mulching everything heavily but just one time and the plan is to plant accumulating species between the trees using a whole new system. I'm documenting it and will post about it later.
I'm over halfway now in preparation for planting out in a month or so. These were the first 3 rows, I am up to six out of 10 complete, each 120 feet long.
 


Mark in Texas

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2021, 11:17:57 AM »
Our bounty is a legacy of our affluence and Bulgaria's dearth is a legacy of socialism. I'm not counting on our cheap mulch continuing, I currently pay the tree trimmers $20USD per load about 5 yards. I expect that eventually this resource will get more costly and demand to go up.
I'm working on my last acre of land mulching everything heavily but just one time and the plan is to plant accumulating species between the trees using a whole new system. I'm documenting it and will post about it later.
I'm over halfway now in preparation for planting out in a month or so. These were the first 3 rows, I am up to six out of 10 complete, each 120 feet long.
 


Simply amazing and what a good deal! 

Pine needles are the best.  They also suppress weeds much more than pine bark mulch.

Plantinyum

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 11:19:19 AM »
Our bounty is a legacy of our affluence and Bulgaria's dearth is a legacy of socialism. I'm not counting on our cheap mulch continuing, I currently pay the tree trimmers $20USD per load about 5 yards. I expect that eventually this resource will get more costly and demand to go up.
I'm working on my last acre of land mulching everything heavily but just one time and the plan is to plant accumulating species between the trees using a whole new system. I'm documenting it and will post about it later.
I'm over halfway now in preparation for planting out in a month or so. These were the first 3 rows, I am up to six out of 10 complete, each 120 feet long.
 

lol very nice, what is the thickness of the layer u have placed, just wondering ...I'll follow your future tread about your new planting place !!

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 11:45:36 AM »
Oh, the irony. I pay a yard guy to bag up the oak leaves on my rentals for the city sweepers to haul away. Oaks leach tannins which suppress growth, so they would be better as a moisture layer of mulch than for topsoil. Then I pay again, to have grass seed and straw spread in the low patches that had collected leaves.

Although I do have some corners on the properties with many years of accumulated leaves left to decompose. I suppose there could be good soil under there.

850FL

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2021, 01:16:13 PM »
Oh, the irony. I pay a yard guy to bag up the oak leaves on my rentals for the city sweepers to haul away. Oaks leach tannins which suppress growth, so they would be better as a moisture layer of mulch than for topsoil. Then I pay again, to have grass seed and straw spread in the low patches that had collected leaves.

Although I do have some corners on the properties with many years of accumulated leaves left to decompose. I suppose there could be good soil under there.

I must digress when you say the oak tannins suppress growth.. perhaps fresh green oak leaves, and perhaps for a short period of time, or maybe a plant exposed to very high concentrations of those tannins? Or perhaps plants that require basic soils? but I have never had an observable issue with oak leaves and I mulch all my saplings with bags of oak leaves almost daily, at least weekly. after a couple months it turns into great rich compost!!
Although I will say, pouring bags of coffee grounds right around a root zone will for sure have a suppressive effect. Never let them touch the trunk either. The concentration of tannins in coffee grounds is much higher, also the caffeine inhibits growth. This suppressive effect can last for months (and decomposing coffee mounds get HOT) , but once it all breaks down it too is a great rich compost

You are right when you say the leaf layers hold down moisture. Also I think the problems with oaks and grass have more to do with smothering
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 01:20:27 PM by 850FL »

Galatians522

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2021, 01:52:23 PM »
Our bounty is a legacy of our affluence and Bulgaria's dearth is a legacy of socialism. I'm not counting on our cheap mulch continuing, I currently pay the tree trimmers $20USD per load about 5 yards. I expect that eventually this resource will get more costly and demand to go up.
I'm working on my last acre of land mulching everything heavily but just one time and the plan is to plant accumulating species between the trees using a whole new system. I'm documenting it and will post about it later.
I'm over halfway now in preparation for planting out in a month or so. These were the first 3 rows, I am up to six out of 10 complete, each 120 feet long.
 


Simply amazing and what a good deal! 

Pine needles are the best.  They also suppress weeds much more than pine bark mulch.

You are spot on. Some kinds of pine actually produce an allelopathic chemical in their needls that suppresses the ability of many plants to sprout and grow normally. If you plan to use them as a mulch for weed suppression this can be very handy. Apparently Black Walnut, Australian Pine (Casuariana), Brazilian Pepper, and some kinds of Eucalyptus produce similar chemicals.

Plantinyum

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2021, 02:19:02 PM »
Our bounty is a legacy of our affluence and Bulgaria's dearth is a legacy of socialism. I'm not counting on our cheap mulch continuing, I currently pay the tree trimmers $20USD per load about 5 yards. I expect that eventually this resource will get more costly and demand to go up.
I'm working on my last acre of land mulching everything heavily but just one time and the plan is to plant accumulating species between the trees using a whole new system. I'm documenting it and will post about it later.
I'm over halfway now in preparation for planting out in a month or so. These were the first 3 rows, I am up to six out of 10 complete, each 120 feet long.
 


Simply amazing and what a good deal! 

Pine needles are the best.  They also suppress weeds much more than pine bark mulch.

You are spot on. Some kinds of pine actually produce an allelopathic chemical in their needls that suppresses the ability of many plants to sprout and grow normally. If you plan to use them as a mulch for weed suppression this can be very handy. Apparently Black Walnut, Australian Pine (Casuariana), Brazilian Pepper, and some kinds of Eucalyptus produce similar chemicals.
also juglans regia, the english walnut

K-Rimes

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2021, 02:34:48 PM »
Oh, the irony. I pay a yard guy to bag up the oak leaves on my rentals for the city sweepers to haul away. Oaks leach tannins which suppress growth, so they would be better as a moisture layer of mulch than for topsoil. Then I pay again, to have grass seed and straw spread in the low patches that had collected leaves.

Although I do have some corners on the properties with many years of accumulated leaves left to decompose. I suppose there could be good soil under there.

I have almost 2' of oak leaves under all the red oaks on my property and the soil is high alkaline / calcium / sand exposed seabed. The soil underneath the leaves is pretty much identical to anywhere else on the property. I think leaves can be "a part of" mulch, but they seem to take forever to decompose here hence being feet deep. I dunno. Maybe if it rained more it would help decompose faster? It rained maybe 5 times this winter and I don't expect more rain till December. F.

Plantinyum

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2021, 05:16:14 PM »
Oh, the irony. I pay a yard guy to bag up the oak leaves on my rentals for the city sweepers to haul away. Oaks leach tannins which suppress growth, so they would be better as a moisture layer of mulch than for topsoil. Then I pay again, to have grass seed and straw spread in the low patches that had collected leaves.

Although I do have some corners on the properties with many years of accumulated leaves left to decompose. I suppose there could be good soil under there.

I have almost 2' of oak leaves under all the red oaks on my property and the soil is high alkaline / calcium / sand exposed seabed. The soil underneath the leaves is pretty much identical to anywhere else on the property. I think leaves can be "a part of" mulch, but they seem to take forever to decompose here hence being feet deep. I dunno. Maybe if it rained more it would help decompose faster? It rained maybe 5 times this winter and I don't expect more rain till December. F.
it is my experience, and rather have just seen it with my own eyes that in deciduous forests the leaf matter that falls to the ground does not create a nice and well defined rich humus layer . Maybe the leaves just get consumed faster by the bio life and dont have the time to decompose and create soil ,unlike pine needles for which  I just have a feeling that they dont get so much eaten from worms and such .... Water and air the two main things that trigger the decomposition, anything submerged in water or staying always wet without sufficient air to let microbes do their work ,gets to decompose way slower .. maybe the leaves have accumulated so that they do not let air to get into, as u also said if its dry decomposition gets slowed.
Those are just my thoughts and if anyone gets their hands on a science study regarding this, I would be happy to read it and educate myself ...

EddieF

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2021, 06:02:47 PM »
Hope not off topic, pine bark part of the mulch?  How's bark compare to needles?

Plantinyum

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2021, 06:08:37 PM »
Hope not off topic, pine bark part of the mulch?  How's bark compare to needles?
I have used both with similar results, needles brake down faster than bark , thought bark is more pleasant to look at than needles in my opinion

CarolinaZone

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2021, 07:24:26 PM »
I use pine needles as mulch. The only issue is that they acidify the soil. They work great on  blueberries. I don't know if most tropicals like acid soil. I use it on  my miracle fruit plants. I don't use any cover for my plants so they all get full sun so the pine straw(that's what we call it) help to keep the soil from drying out.

pineislander

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2021, 09:09:10 PM »

lol very nice, what is the thickness of the layer u have placed, just wondering ...I'll follow your future tread about your new planting place !!
[/quote]
Between the tree beds it is starting out about six inches(15cm) but will compress quickly to 3 inches and one inch by the end of a rainy season. On the tree beds I put 4 inches compost then six inches or more of mulch. The plants I'll be planting between tree beds will be cut and used on the tree rows as further mulch and biomass. We don't get ordinary pine in my area rather a mix of exotic trees, some oaks, some palms, acacia, and etc. being mulched. It is a good mixture and I try to leave it for months piled high. The piles heat up quickly and steam for months. Usually the lower parts cool off enough for millipedes and arthropods decomposers to thrive in it. The heating helps reduce weed and tree seed in the mulch, very few germinate after months of steam treatment.

Galatians522

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2021, 10:57:21 PM »
The abstract for this study seems to indicate that pine litter contains less nutrients (including nitrogen) than spruce or birch litter. Maybe the higher nutrient levels allow faster decomposition that prevents a thick layer of humus from building up?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://academic.oup.com/forestry/article-abstract/68/1/49/602696&ved=2ahUKEwiZtd3GoonwAhU9QjABHRpaBm8QFjAAegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw2Nsev9c9m080ShzDtJ4G02&cshid=1618800147112

850FL

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2021, 01:01:41 AM »
Our bounty is a legacy of our affluence and Bulgaria's dearth is a legacy of socialism. I'm not counting on our cheap mulch continuing, I currently pay the tree trimmers $20USD per load about 5 yards. I expect that eventually this resource will get more costly and demand to go up.
I'm working on my last acre of land mulching everything heavily but just one time and the plan is to plant accumulating species between the trees using a whole new system. I'm documenting it and will post about it later.
I'm over halfway now in preparation for planting out in a month or so. These were the first 3 rows, I am up to six out of 10 complete, each 120 feet long.
 


Simply amazing and what a good deal! 

Pine needles are the best.  They also suppress weeds much more than pine bark mulch.

You are spot on. Some kinds of pine actually produce an allelopathic chemical in their needls that suppresses the ability of many plants to sprout and grow normally. If you plan to use them as a mulch for weed suppression this can be very handy. Apparently Black Walnut, Australian Pine (Casuariana), Brazilian Pepper, and some kinds of Eucalyptus produce similar chemicals.

Would you say pecans and hickory also have this chemical in their leaf mulch? Because they seem to have very similar leaves as walnuts, the smell of crushed leaves and nut hulls being the same. and there are very few walnuts around here, but plenty of hickory and pecans..
Also is this allelopathic chemical mostly in the leaves when they are green, and leach out as they turn brown??
Because ive never had a problem with mounding tons of Brown pine staw around my saplings.. Maybe the effect is mostly on little weeds and annuals and grasses?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 01:03:24 AM by 850FL »

Plantinyum

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2021, 03:47:47 AM »
I use pine needles as mulch. The only issue is that they acidify the soil. They work great on  blueberries. I don't know if most tropicals like acid soil. I use it on  my miracle fruit plants. I don't use any cover for my plants so they all get full sun so the pine straw(that's what we call it) help to keep the soil from drying out.
I think tropical plants, and plants in general that come from rainy environments like at least a slightly acidic soil reaction .
The abstract for this study seems to indicate that pine litter contains less nutrients (including nitrogen) than spruce or birch litter. Maybe the higher nutrient levels allow faster decomposition that prevents a thick layer of humus from building up?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://academic.oup.com/forestry/article-abstract/68/1/49/602696&ved=2ahUKEwiZtd3GoonwAhU9QjABHRpaBm8QFjAAegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw2Nsev9c9m080ShzDtJ4G02&cshid=1618800147112
I feel like wind may also have a part in this, like when theres strong winds and the fallen deciduous leaves are not wet ,they get picked up from the wind and dispersed , preventing the build up of the leaf layer, whereas the pine straw has not so much surface area for wind to pick up and carry ,so it falls and stays under the trees ...

Someday when I get to go to the forest I will look around and maybe make my own picture research, like where does the most leaf matter accumulate, the humus layer under it and so on ..

Galatians522

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Re: Forest leaf/ pine needle litter as mulch
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2021, 10:44:15 AM »

Would you say pecans and hickory also have this chemical in their leaf mulch? Because they seem to have very similar leaves as walnuts, the smell of crushed leaves and nut hulls being the same. and there are very few walnuts around here, but plenty of hickory and pecans..
Also is this allelopathic chemical mostly in the leaves when they are green, and leach out as they turn brown??
Because ive never had a problem with mounding tons of Brown pine staw around my saplings.. Maybe the effect is mostly on little weeds and annuals and grasses?

Diffeeent trees produce chemicals that act in various ways. I was amazed at the number of trees that produce chemicals harmful to other plants when I looked it up. Juglone in walnuts is particularly harmful and has apparently been known to kill certain plants (such as tomatoes) even when they are not in the seedlind stage. Pecans and hickories also produce Juglone, but in smaller amounts that are not as harmful to other plants. Acording to this article, concentration of the chemical is stronger in new leaves and gradually disipates through out the year and is eventually removed completely through the decompodition process.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.warnell.uga.edu/sites/default/files/publications/WSFNR-17-06%2520Coder.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwigxIffw4rwAhWARjABHXZrDnQQFjARegQICRAC&usg=AOvVaw3I8JNB7V8RJP7RaK-zc1cJ