Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy

[WGphil]

No, Lakeridge uses Noble for its red.   All they do there is muscadine.   Even though they have dry wines, most of the muscadines are sweet wines.   Free tasting so you can learn a lot there pretty fast.   


The  bunch grape musadine crosses like Southern Home can withstand Florida soil  and have that great bunch grape taste.  They are seeded, but to me they were better than store bought bunch grapes by far

These are sweet enough on their own. 

[Galka]

Our Walmart had bunch grape plants such as Catawba, Triumph and one with no tag which I thought could be Tari's Burgundi. Can somebody confirm it?

[gunnar429]

i am no expert on grapes but the leaves look like my tari.

I was under the impression that triumph were just regular muscadine grapes...

[Galka]

Thanks, gunnar429. I hope it is Tari, and you're right about the Triumph. 

[gunnar429]

Thanks, gunnar429. I hope it is Tari, and you're right about the Triumph. 

no prob.  The bunch grape hybrids I know about are: Tari, Dunstan's Dream, Southern Home, and Southern Jewel.  I believe you can grow a few different varieties of true bunch grapes in your zone, but down here, these are as close as we get, at least thus far.

Tari is the only ones of the above that I have tasted.

[FruitFreak]

Would have to agree with Jeff.  Although I have very limited experience with grapes there are a lot of similarities between the pictures you posted and my Tari.  I noticed that the Tari seems to have a dullness to the leave color compared to the bright/waxy look of other varieties.  Other thing I noticed was that the leaves feel almost velvety to the touch.  Hope this helps.

[zands]

Our Walmart had bunch grape plants such as Catawba, Triumph and one with no tag which I thought could be Tari's Burgundi. Can somebody confirm it?

From what I have sees highly doubtful that it is Tari. That Apopka nursery I see from the familiar one gallon bucket puts out some Northern grapes you mention and Muscadines.

You can phone them up at Apopka and ask
https://www.agristarts.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/plants.main/typeID/44/index.htm

You can call Pine Island nursery to see if they have Tari in stock to ship

[Central Floridave]

My Tari's are now 100 percent ripe.  I hate a bunch last night and they are really good.  The wife won't eat them due to the seeds, but I do.  Just sit outside and spit them out when needed! 

Do grape come true from seed?  Do they germinate easy?  Or, best to propagate with cuttings.   I have a few friends that say they want Tari's Burgandy and I haven't propagated them yet, due to a combo of forgetfulness and laziness.   

[zands]

My Tari's are now 100 percent ripe.  I hate a bunch last night and they are really good.  The wife won't eat them due to the seeds, but I do.  Just sit outside and spit them out when needed! 

Do grape come true from seed?  Do they germinate easy?  Or, best to propagate with cuttings.   I have a few friends that say they want Tari's Burgandy and I haven't propagated them yet, due to a combo of forgetfulness and laziness.   

I have posted this before---  I pick only the darkest of the dark off each bunch and leave the others to ripen. The darkest are the sweetest. When I pick by the bunch I get too many tart ones. Tart grapes are not my objective. But as always this is up to ones taste.

I don't want light or medium purple Tari grapes. I want darker.
My first year fruiting. Maybe the grapes will come in sweeter in the future

The wife won't eat them due to the seeds, but I do.  Just sit outside and spit them out when needed! 
She would eat them if that's all there were to eat. I prefer seeded grapes. They are more real to me. Seeds are a zero factor to me!

I know nothing about grape cutting propagation but Tari is such a vigorous grower it must not be difficult

[Central Floridave]

Ate not Hate.  LOL.

[Central Floridave]

Another grape cultivation question.

Now that the fruit have all been picked and all that is left is a wild vine growing all over the place...

Is this the time to cut it back?  I think you are suppose to cut it back when it goes dormant, but not sure.

The vine is all over the place.  Let me know if now is the time to cut back, or wait. thanks in advance.

[zands]

Another grape cultivation question.

Now that the fruit have all been picked and all that is left is a wild vine growing all over the place...

Is this the time to cut it back?  I think you are suppose to cut it back when it goes dormant, but not sure.

The vine is all over the place.  Let me know if now is the time to cut back, or wait. thanks in advance.

Train them to a trellis the way Mark fr Texas does. I plan to with my Tari and Ison grapes
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15206.msg200964#msg200964

[cohardy]

I am looking for the "Tari" muscadine grape hybrid and " Florida Frye". Does anyone know where I could obtain either? I am in Florida Z8B.   

[1rainman]

First of all Tari's Burgundy is a hybrid between vitis shuttleworthii (Calusa grape) and vinifera. The breeder mistakenly thought that the native shuttleworthii was a native muscadine. But it is clear the fruit, leaves, early ripening etc. is very similar to shuttleworthii, which is native to south florida. In my opinion is the best wild grape I have found. The berries of shuttleworthii are similar to store grapes but slightly better tasting, though the texture is terrible when ripe (muscadine type of gooey texture, though is crisp and edible when green). Though it does have a bit high acidity, this is usually toned down when hybridized. It also ripens very early as indicated here, which is why it only grows in Florida and suceptible to cold.

Almost every grape variety I tried in South Florida died on me even Florida varieties like Blanc Du Boise. I'm just not good at spraying and its too wet and humid. However I have finally had success with Z86 seeds I have gotten (zehnder grapes). This grape is actually 6% muscadine so the seeds are a little over 3% muscadine, though mostly gets disease resistance from aestavalis, the small drop of muscadine seems to really improve toughness as the grape is over half vinifera (cabranet sauvignon parent). This year I have some z86 x taris burgundy seedlings starting to grow.

My tari's burgundy rooted well from cuttings, but was slightly suceptible to anthracnose so the young cutting died. With my zender seedlings about 20% or so die from anthracnose and I Just keep the ones that have bullet proof disease resistance. I also bred a seyval blanc x shuttleworthii which is much tougher than Tari's Burgundy. I also had a CA8-15 at one time which is villard blanc x shuttleworthii. It is tougher than Taris because it isn't suceptible to anthracnose but it is suceptible to rust fungus (taris probably is as well). My seyval blanc x shuttleworthii seems to resist everything. CA8-15 is good for fresh eating but wine quality is not nearly as good as Taris and it is harder to root (though will root with some difficulty).

The actual muscadine hybrids like southern home, dunstan's dream etc. are good options too. But my Seyval blanc x shuttleworthii is actually tougher than muscadines like southern home. Though Southern Home survives pretty well down here it takes several years to dig its roots in deep and get established. I never had Dunstan's Dream but would like to get it. One of the muscadine/vinifera hybrid that Dunstan produced is in the background of the Z86 Zender hybrid. Wheras Dunstan's dream is straight up half muscadine half vinifera.

[1rainman]

Also the wal-mart vine is likely a lubrusca type- sunbelt probably- something related to concord. Lubrusca is nearly identical to aestavalis, I guess an expert can tell them apart but the leaves are about the same- thick leathery sometimes with hairs on the underside sometimes not. Mainly Aestavalis grows in the south and lubrusca native to the northeast but they are relates species. Shuttleworthii has thicker, glossier leaves, more hairs on the bottom, a blueish tint to the leaves and slightly different leaf shape. Very similar to the mustang grape of texas- shuttleworthii's closest relative. But the Taris Burgundy being a hybrid the leaves are less glossy, less thick etc. can seem similar to an aestavalis or lubrusca type leaf. The hairs under the leaves some lubrusca and aestaalis have them some don't. Shuttleworthii always has a lot of hairs (usually silver in color but sometimes turn orange) though when hybridized the wool on the underside is greatly reduced and tari's didn't seem to inherit the glossiness so it sort of resembles an aestavalis leaf but I can clearly tell it is half shuttleworthii. At any rate you never see these hairs on a muscadine leaf which clearly indicates Taris is not a muscadine hybrid (among other traits). As well the burgundy color is actually from shuttleworthii too. It is the only wild grape I have seen that is naturally red, though it tends to be a dark red, sometimes a reddish black when fully riped. I'm guessing it was crossed with a green grape so it basically inherited all the color from shuttleworthii.

So basically its nearly impossible to tell an aestavalis or lubrusca type of variety from one another. I mean unless it is labeled hard to tell if it is concord or sunbelt or some other lubrusca. Shuttleworthii is a little more distinct but can also look similar when hybridized. Almost always the stuff at lowes, walmart etc. will not survive in the south other than their muscadines. They tend to sell all northern type grapes like concord or sunbelt.

[1rainman]

Centralfloridaave: A wild grape or a 100% vinifera will be pretty close to the parent, though with domesticated grapes usually not quite as good as the parent which is why they use clones. With hybrids (which is what we are dealing with in the USA) you get a huge amount of variation due to mixing of different types of grapes. With a first generation cross it will be almost impossible to get the same traits in a seedling- resistance to different funguses like rust, downy mildew, powdery mildew, anthracnose etc. are all different genes. It has to inherit all of these genes from the wild parent, which is unlikely. I grew about 30 seeds from last years crop that were all z86 x d370. Most of them were similar but many had different leaves. Even though the parents were tough due to being about half vinifera one seedling would be sucptible to downy mildew, but resist everything else. Another one suceptible to powdery mildew but resist everything else. About 15-20 percent croacked from anthracnose. I narrowed it down to 3 really tough ones out of 30. My z86 x taris about 15-20 percent have croaked from anthracnose. Only about 10 seeds out of 20 came up. So I have like six of them I think. I will have to see which ones do best.

The other problem is wild grapes are either male or female. Most domesticated grapes are self fertile (hermaphrodite). When I have gotten selfed seeds they grow but very slowly. They have low vigor due to inbreeding. You need a good female vine if you want to grow seeds. I have been getting seeds from a guy who has the z86 vine because its a really good female vine he can easily make crosses with. The experts are able to cross two self fertile vines together but its too difficult for amateurs like us.

Grape seeds are hard to germinate. They need 3 months of cold weather. You have to put them in a wet paper towel and put it in the fridge for three months, then take them out and put them in dirt. You could just throw them in dirt and leave them outside but a hard freeze might kill some of the seeds. And in Florida I have the opposite problem. Some varieties seem to come up with practically no winter. Most varieties we don't get enough cold weather for them and they end up not coming. Sometimes you can wait a second year and they'll soak up enough cold in two seasons to come up. It's just easier to put them in the fridge if that is an option.

If you root them from cuttings it needs to be warm and humid for the cuttings to root. Temps in the 80s with high humidity- florida is ideal for rooting cuttings though in winter/early spring may not be warm enough. They will rot if in the ground too long (or in water too long) without rooting. You can put them in a clear box or wrap a bag around them and keep it wet so it stays steamy and humid which helps them root. You can either pick them green and root them or cut off dormant pieces and root them in spring. Some sticks will root others won't. Some varieties root better than others. Muscadines almost never root dormant so they pick them green. Taris roots fairly well from dormant cuttings.

Anyway I mainly want to produced shuttleworthi hybrids since it is such a great wild vine- though does need to be hybridized to be worth growing.

[Mark in Texas]

Texas Gulf Coast growers (I grow vinifera only) usually plant only Pierce's Disease varieties like Blanc Du Bois (which produces an excellent dry white wine), Favorite, Lenoir, Lomanto.  One of our Guild members (RIP) Frenche co-developed the Victoria Red with the Aggies.  Excellent grape if grown well.....like all fruits.  Will hit brix of 21*, PD resistant, one or two seeds, good eating and good for wine/jelly.   Here's a cluster from their vineyard:
 


Frenche at one of our (San Antonio Wine Guild) monthly meetings .

[Galatians522]

Centralfloridaave: A wild grape or a 100% vinifera will be pretty close to the parent, though with domesticated grapes usually not quite as good as the parent which is why they use clones. With hybrids (which is what we are dealing with in the USA) you get a huge amount of variation due to mixing of different types of grapes. With a first generation cross it will be almost impossible to get the same traits in a seedling- resistance to different funguses like rust, downy mildew, powdery mildew, anthracnose etc. are all different genes. It has to inherit all of these genes from the wild parent, which is unlikely. I grew about 30 seeds from last years crop that were all z86 x d370. Most of them were similar but many had different leaves. Even though the parents were tough due to being about half vinifera one seedling would be sucptible to downy mildew, but resist everything else. Another one suceptible to powdery mildew but resist everything else. About 15-20 percent croacked from anthracnose. I narrowed it down to 3 really tough ones out of 30. My z86 x taris about 15-20 percent have croaked from anthracnose. Only about 10 seeds out of 20 came up. So I have like six of them I think. I will have to see which ones do best.

The other problem is wild grapes are either male or female. Most domesticated grapes are self fertile (hermaphrodite). When I have gotten selfed seeds they grow but very slowly. They have low vigor due to inbreeding. You need a good female vine if you want to grow seeds. I have been getting seeds from a guy who has the z86 vine because its a really good female vine he can easily make crosses with. The experts are able to cross two self fertile vines together but its too difficult for amateurs like us.

Grape seeds are hard to germinate. They need 3 months of cold weather. You have to put them in a wet paper towel and put it in the fridge for three months, then take them out and put them in dirt. You could just throw them in dirt and leave them outside but a hard freeze might kill some of the seeds. And in Florida I have the opposite problem. Some varieties seem to come up with practically no winter. Most varieties we don't get enough cold weather for them and they end up not coming. Sometimes you can wait a second year and they'll soak up enough cold in two seasons to come up. It's just easier to put them in the fridge if that is an option.

If you root them from cuttings it needs to be warm and humid for the cuttings to root. Temps in the 80s with high humidity- florida is ideal for rooting cuttings though in winter/early spring may not be warm enough. They will rot if in the ground too long (or in water too long) without rooting. You can put them in a clear box or wrap a bag around them and keep it wet so it stays steamy and humid which helps them root. You can either pick them green and root them or cut off dormant pieces and root them in spring. Some sticks will root others won't. Some varieties root better than others. Muscadines almost never root dormant so they pick them green. Taris roots fairly well from dormant cuttings.

Anyway I mainly want to produced shuttleworthi hybrids since it is such a great wild vine- though does need to be hybridized to be worth growing.

Let us know if you come up with something good. You are working with some good quality material. Is Z86 is a Bob Zender cross from 1986, and D370 is a sibling of Dunstan's Dream (developed by Bob Dunstan)? Seeds from the Z67 series (Bob Zender cross 1967) that were sent to John Mortensen at the University of Florida eventually became the grandparents of the Southern Home grape grown all over the state. Also, if you know if anyone with some of the Fennell hybrids (Caribe in particular) I think there would be a number of people (myself included) who would be interested in buying cuttings/plants.

[Francis_Eric]

Centralfloridaave: A wild grape or a 100% vinifera will be pretty close to the parent, though with domesticated grapes usually not quite as good as the parent which is why they use clones. With hybrids (which is what we are dealing with in the USA) you get a huge amount of variation due to mixing of different types of grapes. With a first generation cross it will be almost impossible to get the same traits in a seedling- resistance to different funguses like rust, downy mildew, powdery mildew, anthracnose etc. are all different genes. It has to inherit all of these genes from the wild parent, which is unlikely. I grew about 30 seeds from last years crop that were all z86 x d370. Most of them were similar but many had different leaves. Even though the parents were tough due to being about half vinifera one seedling would be sucptible to downy mildew, but resist everything else. Another one suceptible to powdery mildew but resist everything else. About 15-20 percent croacked from anthracnose. I narrowed it down to 3 really tough ones out of 30. My z86 x taris about 15-20 percent have croaked from anthracnose. Only about 10 seeds out of 20 came up. So I have like six of them I think. I will have to see which ones do best.

The other problem is wild grapes are either male or female. Most domesticated grapes are self fertile (hermaphrodite). When I have gotten selfed seeds they grow but very slowly. They have low vigor due to inbreeding. You need a good female vine if you want to grow seeds. I have been getting seeds from a guy who has the z86 vine because its a really good female vine he can easily make crosses with. The experts are able to cross two self fertile vines together but its too difficult for amateurs like us.

Grape seeds are hard to germinate. They need 3 months of cold weather. You have to put them in a wet paper towel and put it in the fridge for three months, then take them out and put them in dirt. You could just throw them in dirt and leave them outside but a hard freeze might kill some of the seeds. And in Florida I have the opposite problem. Some varieties seem to come up with practically no winter. Most varieties we don't get enough cold weather for them and they end up not coming. Sometimes you can wait a second year and they'll soak up enough cold in two seasons to come up. It's just easier to put them in the fridge if that is an option.

If you root them from cuttings it needs to be warm and humid for the cuttings to root. Temps in the 80s with high humidity- florida is ideal for rooting cuttings though in winter/early spring may not be warm enough. They will rot if in the ground too long (or in water too long) without rooting. You can put them in a clear box or wrap a bag around them and keep it wet so it stays steamy and humid which helps them root. You can either pick them green and root them or cut off dormant pieces and root them in spring. Some sticks will root others won't. Some varieties root better than others. Muscadines almost never root dormant so they pick them green. Taris roots fairly well from dormant cuttings.

Anyway I mainly want to produced shuttleworthi hybrids since it is such a great wild vine- though does need to be hybridized to be worth growing.

Let us know if you come up with something good. You are working with some good quality material. Is Z86 is a Bob Zender cross from 1986, and D370 is a sibling of Dunstan's Dream (developed by Bob Dunstan)? Seeds from the Z67 series (Bob Zender cross 1967) that were sent to John Mortensen at the University of Florida eventually became the grandparents of the Southern Home grape grown all over the state. Also, if you know if anyone with some of the Fennell hybrids (Caribe in particular) I think there would be a number of people (myself included) who would be interested in buying cuttings/plants.

Just going through my email I happen to see a saved link of that (by chance)
was going to post some other stuff , but busy right now.
I do like looking at the Pictures though
 (see second link one I was also going to share
even before you brought Him Bob Zehnder up RIP. which I never got the pleasure to meet)

http://thefruitblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/grape-breeder-bob-zehnder-dies.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/grapebreeders/Articles/Bob_Zehnder/Bob.htm

Here is one as well
http://texasoctobergrapes.blogspot.com/2012_11_01_archive.html

[1rainman]

I think it was z89 something actually. It is cabranet sauvignon x a complex hybrid that is mostly v. simpsonii but with bigger better tasting berries and which is 1/8 muscadine though it doesn't show any muscadine characteristics other than good disease resistance. The z89 performs really well with good disease resistance, makes a good cab. sauvignon type wine but with a very slight off flavor (which I suspect is probably caused more by hot weather than anything because cab. sauvignon develops off flavors in hot climates but that theory is yet to be tested). z89 has a better sibling with the same parent but crossed with ruby cabranet instead. Ruby cabranet is half cab. sauvignon but bred for hot weather. This produces a high quality cab. sauvignon wine and has solid disease resistance (same disease resistance as the z89). Probably the best red wine grape for the south. But the guy I'm getting the seeds from just has the z89 to use. Both of them are female so easy to breed with. z89 and cab. zehn are a little over 6% muscadine thus my seeds are a little over 3%.

The only problem is pierce tolerance takes several genes and generally most pierce tolerant hybrids don't pass on tolerance very well (the one exception being this BD something hybrid that is a Stover x Daytona cross but passes on pierce tolerance better than either parent. When crossed with a non pierce tolerant variety about 2/3 of offspring are tolerant. When crossed with another pierce tolerant variety you probably have 90% or so tolerant offspring. The BD also has crisp non slip skin texture and is a decent table grape though its thick skinned.

D 370 has no muscadine in it. It is Florida w1521 (lake emerald x fl. 449) crossed with a mostly vinifera parent that has a small amount of lubrusca in its background and also a villard blanc grandparent. So D370 is about 47% or so vinifera with berries that are good for juice and fresh eating, and it has survived for years without spray in south carolina. My D370 x Z89 are roughly 50% vinifera but in terms of disease resistance they are more like aestavalis vines. I have one offspring of that cross that seems to resist every disease and a second one that resist every disease other than some mild black rot. But pierce tolerance is a wild card as its hard to pass on in hybrids.

These are two of the top Dunstan and Zehnder vines out of the hundreds or thousands of crosses they have made. I had Caribe at one time I rooted from a cutting. It was one of the few vines that did well and one of the few that resisted rust ) though most of my z89 seedlings resist rust- v. simpsonii is rust tolerant and passes it on, as does v. tillifolia). I accidently killed it from neglect. A member of the southern grape growers group has Caribe and has been growing it for several years without spray but it seems to get a fair amount of downy mildew on its leaves and he says the grapes don't taste much different from a wild grape and they didn't have the crisp table grape texture they were supposed to have (I guess this may vary according to location). It was ok for him but he was not impressed with it. He had Fairchild as well (Caribe's parent) which he liked better because it had zero disease though the berries are ok and not any better than Caribe. Though in terms of breeding second generation crosses are a lot harder to get all the disease resistance in compared to a first generation cross so I would rather go with Caribe for breeding purposes. He said he did cross some Fairchild with Caribe.

Caribe would be decent especially for breeding since its female. Tari's Burgundy fruit is probably just as good as Caribe though without the downy mildew issue. The Zehnder and Dunstan stuff is better as it represents a lot more generations of selective breeding.

University of Florida had two really good hybrids they never released. CN1-90 (Suwannee x Verdelet) A good table grape and wine grape (Verdelet is also a good table and wine grape with some pierce tolerance. CN1-90 has similar berry quality as Verdelet but a little more pierce tolerance and adaptation to the south so is a slight improvement). The other is BD5-117 (Daytona x Stover) which passes on pierce tolerance really well, but also a decent table grape. It is about half way between Stover and Daytona in most respects- Daytona has some of the best fruit quality out of any pierce tolerant southern hybrid but it is disease suceptible, low vigor, low yields. BD5-117 is not super vigorous but a little better than Daytona, and disease resistance is half way between stover and daytona so is decent.

I guess they had a labeling mix up or something some years ago which is why they stopped releasing new cultivars and these two never got named and released though they are the next generation and proven themselves as improvements upon the previous generation. I'll have some BD5-117 crossed with z89 seeds next year.

[1rainman]

Victoria red is a great vine but most people who have tried growing it in the south says that it died on them. There are other diseases and issues besides only pierce disease. Its similar with blanc du boise and daytona they need a really good spray regime and assistance to do well. Something like Taris Burgundy or Suwannee is relatively low maintenance. I'm breeding stuff that will grow well with little to no spray. Victoria red would be really good to cross with a shuttleworthii though- get something similar to Tari's Burgundy but with pierce tolerance from both sides of the family.

[Mark in Texas]

Victoria red is a great vine but most people who have tried growing it in the south says that it died on them. There are other diseases and issues besides only pierce disease. Its similar with blanc du boise and daytona they need a really good spray regime and assistance to do well. Something like Taris Burgundy or Suwannee is relatively low maintenance. I'm breeding stuff that will grow well with little to no spray. Victoria red would be really good to cross with a shuttleworthii though- get something similar to Tari's Burgundy but with pierce tolerance from both sides of the family.

Even muscadines have disease issues.  I'm in the biz.  We're (Fredericksburg) the NAPA of the SW with a huge wine tourism trade just in the hill country.  I have found no grape that matches vinifera in quality whether it be eating or for wine. 

Sprays are a must and growing organically is out of the question.  At least in Texas.  Those who have tried fail.

Good luck with your breeding efforts!

[Mark in Texas]

These are sweet enough on their own.

Ever measured the brix with a refractometer?

We harvest as high as 26 degrees which can make a pretty "hot" wine.  That's sugar sweet.  We usually harvest when they hit 21 to 25.

2 pounder.
 

[1rainman]

Even muscadines have disease issues.  I'm in the biz.  We're (Fredericksburg) the NAPA of the SW with a huge wine tourism trade just in the hill country.  I have found no grape that matches vinifera in quality whether it be eating or for wine. 

Sprays are a must and growing organically is out of the question.  At least in Texas.  Those who have tried fail.

Good luck with your breeding efforts!

I disagree. Muscadines here in south florida are weeds. They grow everywhere and choke out other vegetation. You might see a spot here and there of black rot or whatever on the wild grapes, but it doesn't cause any measurable harm to the grape. The domesticated varieties of muscadine when grown down here have slightly more disease than the native, but they still grow well without any spray or care. Shuttleworthii isn't quite a weed like the muscadines but it grows really well here in the wild as well. Shuttleworthii grapes actually taste better than most vinifera grapes. It is similar to vinifera but has a bit of its own flavor. Though the quality is lower due to slip skin, really pulpy inside and high acidity. As well the bunch weight is much smaller on native vines compared to domestic vines bred for high yields. Though typically shuttleworthii hybrids have good quality fruit for fresh eating or wine (depending on what it was crossed with) and tend to grow pretty well. They are just hard to hybridize. They bloom earlier than everything else so don't naturally hybridize and I have pollinated them repeatedly and only on occasion does the pollination actually take. Then most of those seeds when I grew them animals or something ate the babies.

Native aestavalis here tastes pretty good too. Its usually similar to concord but without the foxy flavor. Lake Emerald also tastes better than typical store grapes in my opinion though it has its own unique flavor.

My hybrids are growing well without spray. Cabranet Zehn produces a wine about the same as a Cab Sauvignon without any non-vinifera flavors and it grows pretty well without spray. The main problem is getting these hybrids. Hard to find any place that sells southern hybrids. Blanc Du Boise is about the only variety that became popular.

[1rainman]

In terms of just picking them off the vine and eating them hybrids, even wild grapes generally taste better than store grapes. I guess its a matter of opinion. I'd rather plant something like Taris Burgundy in the backyard and have good tasting grapes to pop off the vine compared to vinifera types. But the downside is they don't keep like store grapes- none of the wild grapes keep that long and not many hybrids. Pick them and a day or two later they are shriveled up whereas a regular vinifera table grape can last in the fridge maybe a month. But the University of Arkansas has released new table grape hybrids that last over a month when picked though they may need some spray (Joy, Hope etc. grapes). Europe also came out with hybrids that match premium vinifera quality wine- namely Regent, Laurot, and Malverina. Chambourcin and Seyval Blanc can still produce a decent wine as hybrids.

The only odd thing is all these great hybrids exist but nearly impossible to buy them anywhere. Most websites that sell grapevines are still selling 50 year old varieties like Seyval Blanc, Chambourcin etc. which are ok but there are better ones now. A lot of hybrids would make good juice grapes too but they only ever sell concord juice anywhere.