Author Topic: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots  (Read 3632 times)

Gone tropo

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Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« on: October 29, 2020, 07:52:31 PM »
So I have 3x rambutan trees that were grown from seedlings unsure of variety, i have also been able to get my hands on a yellow rambutan marcot (unsure of variety possinly R156??) which i will soon add.  I understand that marcots and grafted trees are preffered by most on this forum for most fruit types.

This will be a good experiment on my own property to see the difference in growth rate and time to fruit etc between a seedling rambutan and a marcott grown under the same conditions.  My question is how variable are my seedling trees likely to be??? I realise i will find this answer out myself in quite a few years but wonder if anyone has already been down this road who can give me an answer.

I believe there are some advantages to a seedling tree whilst living in the cyclone belt they are supposedly stronger and more resilant to many things.

Finca La Isla

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2020, 09:28:45 PM »
I have planted more than 50 seedlings.  Roughly half will be male trees that will never produce a fruit.  The productive trees vary greatly but, in my case, it got some very good material that is sought after in our very competitive rambutan market.  Most of the rest have been eliminated.
I have grafted rambutan and experienced a delayed incompatibility although that doesn’t seem to be common as grafting is the choice of most nurseries in Costa Rica.
But we use marcotting.  You will hear that it’s not a good idea because the marcotted tree doesn’t have a good tap root.  I have never seen the evidence of this being a problem.  The lateral root system is impressive and, I think, helps the tree develop faster if the superficial soil is good.
Our marcots will fruit in 2-3 years.
Peter

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2020, 10:22:21 PM »
I have planted more than 50 seedlings.  Roughly half will be male trees that will never produce a fruit.  The productive trees vary greatly but, in my case, it got some very good material that is sought after in our very competitive rambutan market.  Most of the rest have been eliminated.
I have grafted rambutan and experienced a delayed incompatibility although that doesn’t seem to be common as grafting is the choice of most nurseries in Costa Rica.
But we use marcotting.  You will hear that it’s not a good idea because the marcotted tree doesn’t have a good tap root.  I have never seen the evidence of this being a problem.  The lateral root system is impressive and, I think, helps the tree develop faster if the superficial soil is good.
Our marcots will fruit in 2-3 years.
Peter

Thanks for that Peter, how many trees do you estimated you have kept and are worthy of those 50?  Yeh i had also read that marcots will tear out with cyclones quicker than seedling trees but i guess in a catergory 4 or 5 even seedling trees will probably tear out.  I live in the cyclone belt of australia and fruit orchards just to the south of me have been decimated by category 4 and 5 cyclones.  Lots of exotic fruit farmers left the industry due to decades old trees been torn out of the ground.

Im not growing commerically this is just for my family but i rate rambutan as one of the very best fruits.  I may get 3 marcotted trees and compare them to the 3 seedling trees, i will tear out all male trees except one.

Mike T

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2020, 02:45:43 AM »
Grafted vs marcot would be fairer. The top varieties are all clones of bisex lines that have seedling which are male or female as well as bisex.

Finca La Isla

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2020, 11:31:59 AM »
I have been lucky with rambutan seedlings.  I got one that could be the best in the country.  It’s just luck to get that.
Of the fifty seedlings which were all from very select seed, there are about 3 others that are high quality.  One of those is a tad too acidic for some but has profound flavor and there are people who want that one.
Peter

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2020, 04:55:44 AM »
I sold 100 seedling rambutan trees to a local farmer. He reported to me that all those trees produced fruit. None were male. I started those trees from my grove all hermaphrodite trees. This leads me to conclude that the case is similar to papaya. If you select papaya seeds from hermphrodite groves then you will not get any males. All plants will turn out to be either hermaphrodites (2/3) or females (1/3).
Oscar

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2020, 05:27:34 AM »
I think sex ratios in trieocious papaya where 3 alleles go to sex determination are pretty well documented. It could be the same ratios for rambutan if sex determination is the same in that species.

Chandramohan

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2020, 06:07:12 AM »
How difficult is it to marcot rambutan? I have a very good quality fruit rambutan tree and I would like to have a few more of the same. My efforts at grafting have all been failures and now I am thinking of marcoting. Any help would be greatly appreciated .

Finca La Isla

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2020, 06:53:35 AM »
Rambutan is one of the easiest to marcot.  We select branches in the sun with active growth that are from 1-2cm.  Coco coir is our medium and we wrap with foil. Takes about 6-10 weeks for us.
Peter

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2020, 06:55:50 AM »
That’s very interesting Oscar.  What about the quality, how uniform was it?
Peter

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2020, 05:30:43 PM »
That’s very interesting Oscar.  What about the quality, how uniform was it?
Peter
Don't know about that, was not on my farm.
Oscar

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2020, 05:33:31 PM »
Rambutan is one of the easiest to marcot.  We select branches in the sun with active growth that are from 1-2cm.  Coco coir is our medium and we wrap with foil. Takes about 6-10 weeks for us.
Peter
I do the same except use sphagnum moss. It stays together and is easier to handle while applying to tree. The size of branch does not matter much. Bigger branches will also airlayer well. The time for good rooting here is longer. Usually at least 3 months, sometimes longer.
Oscar

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2020, 06:08:08 PM »
Macotting is pretty routine but some people prefer grafts a they stand up to hurricanes and cyclones better. Ringbark, root hormone and pack and 6 weeks later most will have good roots. The survival rate after chopping isn't always as good as say longkong. They have to be babied.

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2020, 08:20:36 PM »
I had a mature marcot break off at the ground level.  It sprang back and is now a large productive tree.  That wouldn’t have been the case if it had been grafted.

I’ve also used moss as a medium.  I think it holds water better but that the roots are a little more brittle because of that.  We don’t always do it but I teach mixing 10% potting mix in with the rooting medium.  It’s one thing to get the layer to root and another to establish it.  With some soil in the rooting medium the roots are a little better adapted to their eventual growing medium.  Nice size layers like that could easily be at least 6 months ahead of a grafted tree.
Peter

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2020, 08:48:57 PM »
I had a mature marcot break off at the ground level.  It sprang back and is now a large productive tree.  That wouldn’t have been the case if it had been grafted.

I’ve also used moss as a medium.  I think it holds water better but that the roots are a little more brittle because of that.  We don’t always do it but I teach mixing 10% potting mix in with the rooting medium.  It’s one thing to get the layer to root and another to establish it.  With some soil in the rooting medium the roots are a little better adapted to their eventual growing medium.  Nice size layers like that could easily be at least 6 months ahead of a grafted tree.
Peter
Bill Whitman makes the same point about airlayers being better in hurricane areas in his book 5 Decades with Tropical Fruits. Yes you don't have to worry about a tree getting snapped below the graft line. Unfortunately Julia Morton in her book Fruits of Warm Climates states that rambutan air layers fail, and a lot of people have believed that rambutan airlayers don't work ever since that. But the rambutan airlayer failures were all in Florida limestone. Everywhere else they work pretty well.
I never thought of mixing potting soil with sphagnum moss, i guess because already have high suceess rate. But will try it out.

Oscar

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2020, 09:23:41 PM »
In the Innisfail area that had 2 Cat 5 cyclones a few years apart rambutan plantations were looked at pretty closely afterwards. Recommendations to graft instead of airlayering/marcotting were not taken up because of the extra effort need with rootstock growing. it was found that narcotted trees had a tendency to blow over and grafted trees usually snapped off above the graft. The industry never recovered from the last big cyclone in 2011.

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2020, 09:53:50 PM »
My rambutan tree that snapped off at ground level was a one time event that was not caused by wind but by a larger tree falling over on it.  We get strong squalls but no hurricanes/cyclones so we are not presented with the same risks as Queensland.  If I were there I might have come to a different conclusion.

Marcotting has always been easy for me while I’ve had issues with grafting sometimes.  I continue marcotting rambutan, longan, and pulusan and some lansium although it doesn’t seem as easy. 
I’ve really worked on improving grafting on durian, Mamey sapote, and sapodilla which is coming along pretty well now.  Champedek still gives me problems to cleft graft and I am approach grafting it right now.  The rest are mostly clefts.
Peter

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2020, 02:14:53 AM »
Thank you everyone for giving me a positive outlook about marcotting rambutan. I am going to try my level best marcotting my tree.

Mike T

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2020, 04:06:06 AM »
Yes it was based on severe wind damage on the trees and the nature of sudden gusts. Cyclone Larry had the strongest gust measures at 290km/hr and 5 years later as the rambutan industry was recovering Cyclone Yasi was more severe and that is what drove the thinking. Of course with less hurricane/cyclone threat then air layering/marcotting is much preferred.

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2020, 08:08:49 AM »
Quote
Unfortunately Julia Morton in her book Fruits of Warm Climates states that rambutan air layers fail, and a lot of people have believed that rambutan airlayers don't work ever since that. But the rambutan airlayer failures were all in Florida limestone.

I thought virtually all of Florida except maybe the keys was too cold to grow rambutan long term??

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2020, 04:56:09 PM »
Thank you everyone for giving me a positive outlook about marcotting rambutan. I am going to try my level best marcotting my tree.
I noticed that in India and Thailand they use cow dung to make the arilayers. It seemed to work pretty well.
Oscar

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2020, 04:58:15 PM »
Quote
Unfortunately Julia Morton in her book Fruits of Warm Climates states that rambutan air layers fail, and a lot of people have believed that rambutan airlayers don't work ever since that. But the rambutan airlayer failures were all in Florida limestone.

I thought virtually all of Florida except maybe the keys was too cold to grow rambutan long term??
Yes that is correct. The trial was only to see if rambutan airlayers would succeed once planted out.
Oscar

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2020, 10:31:12 PM »
So the consensus is that maybe seedling trees are better living in the cyclone belt?  My rambutan and pulasan are thriving at the moment they have new growth coming out everywhere.  All are seedling plants.

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2020, 03:22:57 AM »
So the consensus is that maybe seedling trees are better living in the cyclone belt?  My rambutan and pulasan are thriving at the moment they have new growth coming out everywhere.  All are seedling plants.
If your seeds came from a plantation that were all hermaprhodite trees than yes. But if you just got seeds willy nilly, then you are going to get a whole lot of male trees that don't produce fruits. Since you only have 3 trees i would go with either airlayers or grafted trees. What good is it that a seedling male tree stands up to hurricanes if it's never going to produce fruit?
Oscar

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Re: Rambutan seedlings VS Marcots
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2020, 05:56:37 PM »
So the consensus is that maybe seedling trees are better living in the cyclone belt?  My rambutan and pulasan are thriving at the moment they have new growth coming out everywhere.  All are seedling plants.
If your seeds came from a plantation that were all hermaprhodite trees than yes. But if you just got seeds willy nilly, then you are going to get a whole lot of male trees that don't produce fruits. Since you only have 3 trees i would go with either airlayers or grafted trees. What good is it that a seedling male tree stands up to hurricanes if it's never going to produce fruit?

Oscar i bought the rambutans from a nursery I will try to find out if the seeds came from a farm of hermaphrodite trees.  I think i will get another 3 airlayer plants anyway, cant have too many rambutans hey!!!!!