Author Topic: Not enough Durian Discussion  (Read 54305 times)

Gone tropo

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #175 on: August 01, 2021, 06:41:51 AM »
Cassowary I hope I’m rewarded I’m putting all my effort into my durian.  I figure if Peter Salleras can get them to fruit in 4 years then so can I by hand raising them so to speak.

jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #176 on: August 01, 2021, 08:59:42 AM »
In Malaysia durian trees are routinely top worked. They cut the tree off and cleft graft onto a sprout.

Durian is agile and you could top work a whole orchard.
Peter
I topped one of my 2 mature seedling trees this week - over 10m tall and trunk girth 300mm. Really hard to pollinate , hardly any fruit and they were crap anyway.
Hoping to get some expert help grafting the stump in a month or so. Based in their advice left one lower branch in place for now - apparently makes the tree less likely to die from stress.
Probably try a local cultivar that’s really popular called Peter Knutsford. The tree is is 14 years old so if the grafts take and with the root system it has it should take off like a rocket .
I’ll post up pictures of the progress
Cheers Jim

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #177 on: August 01, 2021, 04:43:13 PM »
Awsome stuff Jim I will be interested to see your progress and how you go about doing this.

jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #178 on: August 01, 2021, 05:46:31 PM »
Hey Andrew - Interesting journey 🙂. I have left it at about head height to keep the leafy branch but want to graft lower down than that and chop the rest off once it’s successful.
Peter I found a couple of videos of guys cleft grafting new shoots in the way you described. The other common one seems to be guys peeling back sections of bark and inserting scions onto the side of the trunk. I have no idea which would provide the strongest origin for a new tree as it were - logic would suggest to me that grafts onto new shoots generated by the original tree would do best ?
Not sure what we will do yet.
Drop by when you are next down this way Troppo. The red prawn, sunan and gumpun have come on well this year. I am going to up my attention to fertilisation this year - adding nitrophoska to the simple chook poo I have haphazardly used previously. The leaves on a few are looking a bit washed out and mineral deficient to me. Started putting a thick layer of crusher dust into the mulch and should start mineral foliage soaks
Cheers Jim

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #179 on: August 01, 2021, 07:41:40 PM »
hey tropo why don't you calculate the time spent on hand watering and compare it to a simple irrigation system with same L/Day as you are putting on now. If you have the water to bucket you have the water to fill the pipe unless your tree's are upp hill from the water source and then material cost goes up with pump cost.

In the beginning we where hand watering with buckets but I calculated it and found we would come out better with pipe, and pipe "never" forgets to water :)

IF (total annual time spent watering)*(hourly wort in $) IS MORE THEN (cost of materials + intallation cost + annual mantanaince cost in $) THEN it makes sense to put a irrigation system in.

IF (total annual time spent watering)*(your hourly wort in $) IS LESS THEN (cost of materials + intallation cost + annual mantanaince cost cost in $) THEN keep bucketing if you can bear it :)

This formula is for one year, piping last longer but it get's complicated to include lifecycle depreciation into this and if irrigation comes out better for one year it's definetly worth it financially in my opinion.


Hey Jim, at 10m tall and trunk girth 300mm I am woundering about the age of the tree's, if you could let me know, thanks.
Crusher dust is cheap that's for sure. If there any reports on this being beneficial or are you having a go at it?
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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #180 on: August 01, 2021, 07:59:33 PM »
In Malaysia I have seen some strange grafting practices that I don’t really understand. But I’ve also seen grafting that makes perfect sense to me and it is what I’m used to doing so that would decide it for me. Perhaps the tree will bud out much lower than where you cut it off.

I believe that rock dust accomplishes two things for me. What I’ve seen in Penang is that the soil is gritty. My soil is clay loam with no sand or anything. So we get some texture to balance out the soil a tad. The other is that, over time, it will release minerals slowly to my benefit.

Something that they apply every 2 weeks is a foliage spray calcium with boron and a little N. They swear by this and it’s not because their soil is acidic. They say the ph is 6.5.
Peter

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #181 on: August 01, 2021, 08:24:52 PM »
Thanks Peter now it makes sense to me.
Crusher dust is synonymous with rock dust which is a bi-product from mining and thus very fine and high in minerals.
I can see it's value as soil structure ammendment. But the rate at which the rock is broken down by microbial acids must be very low so to me it does seam inferior to organic material when talking about increasing the humus layer or plant avaliable nutrients.
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jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #182 on: August 01, 2021, 10:12:50 PM »
Hi Cassawory
The tree was about 15 years old …. I haven’t been structured with fertilising - could have progressed much faster I think.
I have started using the crusher dust on the advice of Neil from Limberlost - he says it is synonymous with rock dust. His suggestion is to put a thick layer on top of a thick layer of standard type mulch. He reckons that the acids produced by the mulch degradation helps to break down and release the mineral content from it
Peter it would be nice if some buds did come out lower …. We may actually try a few methods as the person helping me has access to the optimal PK for scions

Cheers

Gone tropo

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #183 on: August 02, 2021, 12:17:28 AM »
Cassowary eventually i will set up some sort of irrigation system at the moment I dont mind hand watering daily.

Jim I havent put any crusher dust down on mine yet just mulch, i have a weekly cycle of liquid power feed one week and seasol the next week and continue to do this, i also use a combination of nitrophoska special and organic fertlisers around the trees.

jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #184 on: August 02, 2021, 01:08:23 AM »
Hey Andrew
Just wondering …. Can adding fertiliser to the soil every week be too much?
I remember reading in the okd tropical forum about some guy locally who poisoned his trees with over fertilising

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #185 on: August 02, 2021, 05:06:35 AM »
Jim I only rotate the foliar fert and seasol weekly the fertiliser I use around the trunk only once every few months or so.

fruit nerd

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #186 on: August 02, 2021, 07:49:54 AM »
I planted out our first durian 2 weeks ago, unfortunately we got some hot sunny weather shortly after I planted it and it got a bit burnt. Lost a few leaves but looks like it will pull through. Should of given it a bit more shelter to start with. Hand watering too most days.

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #187 on: August 02, 2021, 09:30:47 PM »
Always shelter newly planted durians no matter what season. Rock dust does nothing as nutrients too tightly bound. Crusher dust does less than nothing and isnt even basalt. Listen to Neil and do the opposite I suggest. Power foliage feeding is ok for small stuff in pots I guess but can never supply a decent proportion of growing durians needs.Don't go crazy with fertiliser as it is a main cause of problems. Not more than 3 or 4 times a year for those in the ground. Be selective with good NPKs with micros and not too close to the trunk.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #188 on: August 02, 2021, 10:06:51 PM »
Thanks for the information Mike T. I have some given it some protection now. Lesson learned. I will be more careful with the next durians I plant.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #189 on: August 02, 2021, 11:33:33 PM »
Jim if you don't mind me asking. How many seasons did you try the fruit of the seedlings? where they always bad?
Had experience with a seedling tree having different fruit quality from one year to the next: one year big seeds, not much aril and bad taste and the next year aprox. half of the seeds aborted, good yeild and great taste.
So sometimes they change a lot it seams. Have also expereinced tree's that put out identical fruit every year (four years in a row). Not from my trees's from a friends durian orchard and the fruits get tagged so no confusion.


fruit nerd, if they get to burnt the recovery is very slow in my experience. We only plant tree's between december and april now, lost to many the first two years planting haphazardly. And some of the one's we'v planted at the right time of the year have over taken the older ones so not always better to just get them in the ground, in my opinion.
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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #190 on: August 03, 2021, 12:47:48 AM »
Always shelter newly planted durians no matter what season. Rock dust does nothing as nutrients too tightly bound. Crusher dust does less than nothing and isnt even basalt. Listen to Neil and do the opposite I suggest. Power foliage feeding is ok for small stuff in pots I guess but can never supply a decent proportion of growing durians needs.Don't go crazy with fertiliser as it is a main cause of problems. Not more than 3 or 4 times a year for those in the ground. Be selective with good NPKs with micros and not too close to the trunk.
I think the crusher dust here is good because it is volcanic rock, as good or better than granite dust. Yes minerals are tightly bound, so it takes long time for them to break down. But durian trees are going to be there many years. So it's good to add if you can get good quality dust for cheap price, like here.
Oscar

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #191 on: August 03, 2021, 01:50:13 AM »
Thanks Mike … not really sure what’s best then 😄 I assumed he knew what he was talking about
Cassawory was a few years. Seedling tree from same batch(Limberlost) easy to hand pollinate with consistent tasty fruit - 80 fruit last time.
The one I cut generally gets about 5 fruit even with extensive hand pollinating and every year they taste the same … bit of a cabbage flavour.
I have to hand pollinate as there is virtually no life in my trees at night - the orchard where I collect pollen is alive with moths and bats

Gone tropo

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #192 on: August 03, 2021, 06:29:50 PM »
Planting time from December to April most likely optimal for durian, however i planted my grafted trees on the 10th of July this year so dead set middle of winter and they are now pushing out multiple buds already in less than a month.  This has been a much warmer winter than average though.  I feel that when we hit september and the days warm up properly my trees are going to go gang busters. September is supposed to be the time of greatest new flush according to work at bellen den ker circa 2000.

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2021, 01:08:04 AM »
If you live in FNQ and have a mean streak and want to kill your your durian October to December planting will probably achieve that.  27c to 36c with tropical summer sun, even if rainy is not appreciated. I actually think April May June plantings are better if winter is not too cold.

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #194 on: August 05, 2021, 09:17:31 PM »
If you live in FNQ and have a mean streak and want to kill your your durian October to December planting will probably achieve that.  27c to 36c with tropical summer sun, even if rainy is not appreciated. I actually think April May June plantings are better if winter is not too cold.

Agree with you Mike, October to Dec is a really bad planting time (learn't that the hard way).  It's not pleasant for the the one digging either and I myself prefer planting in the cooling rain rather then in the intense sun.

21st of Dec is summer solstice this year and that's around the time when I will start and that's usually around the time the rains come for us here but will wait for the first big rain to come. The soil gotta be easy to dig into, if it's still dryish and hard I postpone (digging in hard soil is painfull). Timmed like this last year and had better survival rate of durian seedlings.

I think around may is when some southerners come up to plant natives with the NGO's around here, probobly best for them as the wet would make them go tropo.

Iv seen that when I plant in may/june durian do ok until sep/october and then they start to suffer. I assume roots are not established enough to deliver fluid to the leafs as it get's dryer and more intense sun.


Thanks Jim, will help me select trees as your experience can give me some confidence to remove un-desireable tree's.
One durian farmer I spoke to said the native fan palm is desired by the native bats that are nectarivores. Mybe it's the flowers they like or maybe it's a suitable habitat. Maybe some palms and some low growing moth-larve host plants "could" increase the population and thus "could" increase pollination. We got large amounts here, they even fly into the house sometimes!


Gone tropo,
September would be between summer and winter solstice, can't see any reason why plants would grow more then compared to around the summer solstice (theoretical peak summer temperature). Average temp for sep is lower then dec so growth rate shouldn't be higher in sep unless we take water and nutrients into the function. https://en.climate-data.org/oceania/australia/queensland/cairns-589/

And durian thrive in equatorial regions where average annual would be around 26 C. https://en.climate-data.org/asia/indonesia/central-kalimantan-1214/
And here we only have those average temps montly temps in dec, jan, feb. If I read the data right.
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Gone tropo

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #195 on: August 05, 2021, 09:51:27 PM »
Cassowary its been a little while since i read the big study they did at zappalas at belen den ker around 2000 but im 99% sure that report stated that the greatest new flush was in september.  I agree with you I would have thought it would be mid December or middle of wet season, i will recheck the report to make sure this is correct.

EDIT i just checked the report and this is what it stated

5.3.2 Tree Phenology
New flush activity occurred throughout most of the monitoring period with a major peak in spring
(late September) and a smaller peak in mid December following a dormant period through October
and November (Figure 15). The patterns of flushing are similar for trees grown on both soil types.
Despite relatively cool conditions from May through to the end of September (minimum
temperatures ranging from 10° to 18° C) there was active vegetative flushing taking place during this
time.

In north Queensland during the 1999 season, there
were 4 flushing periods, with the peak flush occurring through September. The differences between
NT and NQ flushing patterns is most likely due to temperature and relative humidity differences,
with NT having a lower relative humidity during May to October. In conclusion, shoot activity is
more prolific then imagined, with trees exhibiting the ability to remain vegetatively active during
periods of relatively cool conditions.

In north Queensland durian shoot development appears to be active
throughout the year despite the relatively cool conditions which occur during the winter months.
This finding concurs with that observed by Mansfield (1995). These conditions are considerably
cooler than the tree experiences in its native environment yet tree shoot development appears to be
unaffected. Notably peak shoot production occurred from late September as night and day
temperatures increased. This may have also coincided with a period of higher radiation inputs.
Observations have revealed that flushing activity often occurs in parts of the tree rather than
uniformly over the canopy. Hence it is rare that flushing activity on any single tree is synchronous.
Activity also varies considerably from tree to tree within the same block and variety. Hence, it was
not unusual for trees side by side to exhibit entirely different phases of activity. This feature makes it
difficult to present any realistic generalisation of flushing activity, because the variation among
individual trees is high.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 10:13:00 PM by Gone tropo »

jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #196 on: August 05, 2021, 10:59:00 PM »
I have planted some of my grafts out in this time to get some roots established prior to the wet.
I always start them in a shade cage - 80% cloth and they are all connected to my irrigation and get watered every night. Very obvious if the irrigation goes off - they are struggling within a day.
The hardest time I have found is when they are a couple of years old and they are outgrowing the shade house - mine have all struggled ( all very wilted at the end of the day)for a couple of years before toughening up - must be toot ball getting to critical mass I think
Cheers Jim

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #197 on: August 05, 2021, 11:47:22 PM »
Root not toot ! 🙄🙄

cassowary

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #198 on: August 06, 2021, 04:57:54 PM »
Yes agree they don't like the change from shade to full sun. And if water is withdrawn they suffer. Have some direct seeded ones that survive by themselves.
Have special pots now to try and make them more resilient on their own, 50cm high so hopefully this will help keep some roots cool and moist once planted. Had better succes with 20L pots then the 4.5L pots so wanted to try with a very deep homemade pot. Made from PVC pipe and PVC cap with lots of holes.
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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #199 on: August 06, 2021, 08:29:18 PM »
I think that 80% cloth is a lot.  Perhaps if you need that then somehow you could gradually go to full sun by switching to 50% or something.  We go from 70% to being shaded by glyrcidium which gets slowly pruned away until the trees are perhaps 1.5m and the rainy season is starting. 
Peter