My 11 Mango Tree Collection from Top Tropicals tree update

[Mark in Texas]

Mark - much of what you say is true with our summer climate, not even mentioning the fact that my Socal desert climate does have some of the same obstacles (mainly high and very dry heat) as you Texans have, but it is the winters where the average low here is 45 or below, with many nights less than that, where the soil temperature drops enough that growth does not happen at all for 2-3 months with many of our plants, mangoes' for sure. ...

I understand and pointed that out in my link.  Almost all of my tropicals shut down during winter, especially citrus.   My greenhouse controller is set to turn on the heater at 33F.  It's been cold, but that little pencil sized Pickering I got and planted from PIN 5 months ago is blooming, everywhere.  Guess it can't read. 



If you guys think size is all that matters, well....good on ya.  I've been this too long to know better.  We'll see how Clay's big plants look in the future.

Mark

[Mark in Texas]

And I talked to the Dyna Gro people yesterday who gave me my new regimen which will
also start in about a month - weekly foliar spray with very diluted ProTekt stuff included
in a mix of other foliar mixes that I've purchased, rotated around...

I'm a fan of Dyna-Gro, for 30 years or so but there are some caveats you must observe with some of their products.

1.  Their Foliage Pro (still) has a short shelf life, a couple of years at best.  If you shake the bottle and hear chunks clinking, filter and check out the precipitates.  They were supposed to have corrected that issue using different salts.

2.  I foliar spray Foliage Pro on a commercial basis using a PTO driven air blaster.  I use NO MORE than what comes out to 1/2 tsp./gal. in rainwater (or any low TDS/PPM soft water) combined with a surfactant like Surf-King.  Water carrier should have a pH no higher than 7.5.  Around 6.5 is best.

3.  Never spray when you expect high temps, say......over 90F.

[Mark in Texas]

Yes ofcourse you're right. Initial mango plant size absolutely matters there in S. California, ....

It's all a moot point.  Can we put aside the FACT that Florida conditions are better than Texas or California for growing mangos?  Texas conditions are better for growing pecans than the Panama.  What's the point?   Of course it is, I get it.  But thinking you'll get a jump start with a bigger tree is simply ludicrous.  There are many factors which aren't being discussed in this thread.  It's all about the rate of establishment, the root growth, the vigor and mass of the root system and I've found over 40 years of gardening both on a personal and on a commercial basis that a smaller tree taken directly out of a pot and upcanned to a larger pot or put in the ground ESTABLISHES faster than a larger tree who has issues with root spinout and other factors which no one has addressed....factors that will separate the men from the boyz.    The top notch mail order nurserymen will ALWAYS ship a plant with no disturbance to its root system, the rootball is left in the pot.  PIN and Clifton's are an example and the way it should be done.  My avocados and mangos from PIN never skipped a beat, never knew they had been transplanted into their final home.  The little Oro Negro tree is bearing at 3' X 3' and has held 8 fine fruit going 15 oz +.

OK, ya'll won't believe me, your mind is made up, perhaps you'll READ something from Purdue, the experts who have done field tests and know what they're talking about:

Transplant Shock: Severity dependent on tree size and restoration of root-shoot balance
By Dr. Gary Watson, Morton Arboretum
It is common for a large tree to undergo a prolonged period of slow growth after being transplanted. This period of stagnancy can typically last several years. On the other hand, smaller trees transplanted at the same time will experience a shorter period of reduced vigor and in fact, may surpass the larger tree in size before the larger tree has fully recovered its normal growth rate. The reason for this difference involves the balance between the above and below ground portions of the tree.....
http://www3.ag.purdue.edu/counties/vanderburgh/Documents/Horticulture/Transplant%20Shock-Morton%20Arb.pdf

Yes, it is about ball/burlap but the botanical principles are the same.  Since Top erroneiously feels it must remove some of the rootball, butcher the root system for whatever stupid reason I don't know, that Purdue paper and the principles set forth apply.

Hope this helps,
Mark

[ClayMango]

And I talked to the Dyna Gro people yesterday who gave me my new regimen which will
also start in about a month - weekly foliar spray with very diluted ProTekt stuff included
in a mix of other foliar mixes that I've purchased, rotated around...

I'm a fan of Dyna-Gro, for 30 years or so but there are some caveats you must observe with some of their products.

1.  Their Foliage Pro (still) has a short shelf life, a couple of years at best.  If you shake the bottle and here chunks clinking, filter and check out the precipitates.  They were supposed to have corrected that issue using different salts.

2.  I foliar spray Foliage Pro on a commercial basis using a PTO driven air blaster.  I use NO MORE than what comes out to 1/2 tsp./gal. in rainwater (or any low TDS/PPM soft water) combined with a surfactant like Surf-King.  Water carrier should have a pH no higher than 7.5.  Around 6.5 is best.

3.  Never spray when you expect high temps, say......over 90F.

WOW!!! Incredible Insight!!! Thanks Mark...

[shaneatwell]

I agree with you but I know our winters are mild enough for mangos to grow during that period.....our friend Behl came from a colder winters in North Indian and mangos grow like weeds down there. So what's the determining factor, Precipitation. Florida get an average of 60" a year vs 7" for us.

Eunice has a clever way to go around this: the perfect rootstock. Her grafted trees grow as well as any in south Florida but she had to top work her piña trees after growing them for 10 years to achieve that.
My advice, for whatever is worth, is to find yourself a vigorous rootstock, like your Manny that produce very mediocre mangos, and top work it like Eunice.

I'd like to hear more about Eunice as I'm trying to grow my own rootstocks inground from seed.

[phantomcrab]

Transplant Shock: Severity dependent on tree size and restoration of root-shoot balance
By Dr. Gary Watson, Morton Arboretum
It is common for a large tree to undergo a prolonged period of slow growth after being transplanted. This period of stagnancy can typically last several years. On the other hand, smaller trees transplanted at the same time will experience a shorter period of reduced vigor and in fact, may surpass the larger tree in size before the larger tree has fully recovered its normal growth rate. The reason for this difference involves the balance between the above and below ground portions of the tree.....
http://www3.ag.purdue.edu/counties/vanderburgh/Documents/Horticulture/Transplant%20Shock-Morton%20Arb.pdf

Good article.
For California growers I would suggest investigating how and which mango varieties are grown in northern Israel. The latitude and conditions there are similar to southern CA. Kent grows well there.
India and Israel have been collaborating on mango research for years.

[zands]

Good article.
For California growers I would suggest investigating how and which mango varieties are grown in northern Israel. The latitude and conditions there are similar to southern CA. Kent grows well there.
India and Israel have been collaborating on mango research for years.

Here is India hiring an Israeli firm to put in drip irrigation for mangoes and avocados same as is done in Israel
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/industry-and-economy/agri-biz/karnataka-planters-to-adopt-israeli-drip-irrigation-model/article2872365.ece


As a California alternative to drip irrigation how about>>>

• install a mister on a timer to mist young trees a few times a day
• five inch layer of wood chips mulch
• into the mulch you position 4-5 one quart plastic take out containers that have one pinhole on the bottom that water will leak from very slowly
• the containers will look hidden to the casual observer 20 ft away meaning they will not look unsightly
• once a day or every other day >>>
• take a garden hose and fill the take out containers
• also wet the wood chips mulch so it will decay into black humus sooner---- California has the heat to do this- Just add water
• ---
• ---
• I already do all of the above except no misters and no plastic containers
• But I am going to add containers to some of my smaller trees with thick mulch that I hit with the garden hose once a day or once every two day
• Harry posted a while ago that watering trees gets them growing faster
• Despite that once a mango trees gets dug in say 6 months it does not need watering. It will survive and grow but why not get it to grow faster

[MangoFang]

Yes, thanks Mark on the Dyna-Gro info - I'll look out for the salt buildup in the bottle.  I do get some evenings in the summer when it's over 90 and Now I'll wait till it's cooler before I spray.  I am worried about burning them.  Must one use a surfanctant like SurfKing (I assume that's for stickability on the leaves?)  I plan to use only about 1/8 of a teaspoon on my foliar and do it every week....unless I tire of that and go to 1/4 every other.....

Thanks again for your expertise!

Gary

[ClayMango]

Clay i'm sure Mark meant no harm at all, he and other members here were just curious in regards to your order , if it came in good shape / health of the trees and that it was the correct order. Just my two cents and everyone here i'm sure wish that you get some awesome healthy trees. Mike.

My concerns and questions are valid.  I want to know why and how TT is circumventing the law regarding the inspections fees.

Dave's Garden is your friend - there are 74 positives, 10 neutrals, and 34 negatives reported by customers on this company. 
http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/2785/

I spoke with TT concerning this matter by the way. They are 100 percent in compliance with all state and agricultural shipping Laws. When you go to their site, Notice much of their content states that "this item is not certified for CA shipping" while others are approved. Luckily for the CA backyard grower, T.T.'s Mango trees are approved for CA shipping so we dont pay 140 dollars for 3g tree like you do at Pine Island...Instead You can get a 3g beautiful tree from T.T. for 65.00 or 90.00 for a 7g with shipping included. I also have my Agricultural stamp on each box I recieved.

[Mark in Texas]

Yes, thanks Mark on the Dyna-Gro info - I'll look out for the salt buildup in the bottle.  I do get some evenings in the summer when it's over 90 and Now I'll wait till it's cooler before I spray.  I am worried about burning them.  Must one use a surfanctant like SurfKing (I assume that's for stickability on the leaves?)  I plan to use only about 1/8 of a teaspoon on my foliar and do it every week....unless I tire of that and go to 1/4 every other.....

Thanks again for your expertise!

Gary

Hi Gary, yep, you must use a surfactant or your time and materials will be wasted.  Even though expensive I like Surf-King because it not only eliminates leaf surface tension, acts as a spreader (resulting in a film not spots which run off) but it is rain fast.   2 hours of dry time and it's there for good.  It also acts as a penetrant AND pH reducer for your water carrier....drops it  by about a point.   If I'm only doing 1 gallon mixes I use about a teaspoon of a surfactant. 

If you meant 1/8 tsp/gallon of Dyna-Gro, you're wasting your time.  The effect will be moot.

Any non-ionic surfactant will be fine available on the cheap at your local feed and farm supply store.

Glad to share my experience and info.  I spend about 2 hours a day posting to different gardening forums.  Beats pissin' off my time on Facebook! 

Good luck,
Mark

[ClayMango]

Yes, thanks Mark on the Dyna-Gro info - I'll look out for the salt buildup in the bottle.  I do get some evenings in the summer when it's over 90 and Now I'll wait till it's cooler before I spray.  I am worried about burning them.  Must one use a surfanctant like SurfKing (I assume that's for stickability on the leaves?)  I plan to use only about 1/8 of a teaspoon on my foliar and do it every week....unless I tire of that and go to 1/4 every other.....

Thanks again for your expertise!

Gary

Hi Gary, yep, you must use a surfactant or your time and materials will be wasted.  Even though expensive I like Surf-King because it not only eliminates leaf surface tension, acts as a spreader (resulting in a film not spots which run off) but it is rain fast.   2 hours of dry time and it's there for good.  It also acts as a penetrant AND pH reducer for your water carrier....drops it  by about a point.   If I'm only doing 1 gallon mixes I use about a teaspoon of a surfactant. 

If you meant 1/8 tsp/gallon of Dyna-Gro, you're wasting your time.  The effect will be moot.

Any non-ionic surfactant will be fine available on the cheap at your local feed and farm supply store.

Glad to share my experience and info.  I spend about 2 hours a day posting to different gardening forums.  Beats pissin' off my time on Facebook! 

Good luck,
Mark

Mark,

So I need to add a Surfacant to the DynaGro Solution so the spray sticks and is more absorbed? I was under the impression that you need to rinse the supplement off of the leaves after a few hours or you could damage the leaves ? Is it safe to eave this stuff on there or do we need to rinse the leaves after a while?

[zands]

Mark--
How does dishwashing liquid or liquid soap rank as a surfactant? Thanks
I know you are commercial so you use the best but is liquid soap good enough for small guys like me?

[Mark in Texas]

So I need to add a Surfacant to the DynaGro Solution so the spray sticks and is more absorbed? I was under the impression that you need to rinse the supplement off of the leaves after a few hours or you could damage the leaves ? Is it safe to eave this stuff on there or do we need to rinse the leaves after a while?

It must stay on to do any good, reason why God created surfactants.     Why would you apply it only to wash it off?  Spray both the top and bottom of the leaves til runoff.  If you don't have easy access to a surfactant then Ivory liquid dish soap will work as a decent spreader.  There are many good surfactants available in smaller quantities - Red River, Hi-Yield Spreader-Sticker for example.   ALWAYS spray just a few branches/leaves first as a test if you're not familiar with the product or the response of a particular plant material.  I've learned the hard way let me tell you.

Also, just a thought.  I often see people "throwing" stuff at their plants thinking it might help, feeling that they may have a deficiency.  They're fishing or trying to push their plants, both which will get you in deep doo doo.  Like using pesticides, confirm what the issue is before taking action that not only may be a waste of time and materials but may produce harmful results.

I use foliar sprays only as a supplement.  Root uptake is still the best avenue regarding nutritional uptake.  Also, get familiar with the concept of nutritional antagonism.  It's very important to understand that an overage of one element will cause a lockout or deficiency of one or more.  Good example is high phosphorous foods which can cause a deficiency of micros.

BTW, morning sun is your best sun so what you're doing sounds good.  Just go easy regarding sunrise to sunset exposure or you'll end up with leaf scorch, shock.

Good luck

[Mark in Texas]

Gary, I must have read your mind.    Problem with Ivory is it has no sticking properties.

[MangoFang]

Wait...Mark....so Ivory is NOT a sticking-surfacant or is an OK substitute
for SurfKing, but only as a spreader?

This may be a stupid question, but what about a very diluted mixture containing
Ivory and Elmer's glue put in the foliar?

(He asks with a serious face -  )


Gary

[mangomanic12]

Mark will molasses work as an effective Surfacant ?

[puglvr1]

What about Neem oil as a surfacant...or Murphy's Oil soap? For us hobby growers that don't have a lot of trees?

Thanks Mark!

[ClayMango]

Hi Clay. I lived in Murrieta for 2 years so I am familiar with the growing conditions out there. The soil is tight packed clay and is a bear to dig a hole. The summers as you mentioned are very hot and very dry. I remember in 2004-2005 (I think that is the winter) it snowed about 3-4" there...it killed a Plumeria in my front yard.  I don't think it is a good mango/lychee/longan climate, but plums, cherries, apples, etc. seem to do well there.
I wish you the best with your tropicals.

BluePalm

Mark, JF, Gary, Mango Surf, Everybody!!!

Blue Palm on this thread here has scared me to death when he mentionted snow and really cold weather... Well I've been trying to dig research on the climate and so I've found that the lows typically don't drop below 30 on a typical Winter. However this Wikipedia Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murrieta,_California     Mentions that Murrieta/Temecula has several Micro Climates that have seen Temps vary as  much as 18 degrees.    "The city is also subject to the phenomenon typical of a microclimate: temperatures can vary as much as 18°F (10°C) between inland areas and the coast"

Anyone have any information on this Micro Climate buisness? I'm scared now for my babies..I mean we only saw 33 this year, but then again this was a mild winter.

[ricshaw]

Mark, JF, Gary, Mango Surf, Everybody!!!

Blue Palm on this thread here has scared me to death when he mentionted snow and really cold weather... Well I've been trying to dig research on the climate and so I've found that the lows typically don't drop below 30 on a typical Winter. However this Wikipedia Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murrieta,_California     Mentions that Murrieta/Temecula has several Micro Climates that have seen Temps vary as  much as 18 degrees.    "The city is also subject to the phenomenon typical of a microclimate: temperatures can vary as much as 18°F (10°C) between inland areas and the coast"

Anyone have any information on this Micro Climate buisness? I'm scared now for my babies..I mean we only saw 33 this year, but then again this was a mild winter.

Because of the above, this is the exact reason the ‪mangoprofessor‬ told me on the phone he was working on cold tolerant Mango trees for California.

[MangoFang]

Clay - First of all Blue Palm is of the female persuasion....

Secondly, I think you should try going to http://classic.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=Murrieta,%20California&wuSelect=WEATHER . It's one of the sites that some of us use to gage
our weather prediction and history.  Go to the bottom of this page and you'll see "March Calendar View"
and you can see that and then to previous months and years of statistics. Play around with the whole site and see if you can find a location nearest you. It's only a general gauge of course.  The old microclimates do exist in every place and town. 

Other people may have some other ideas for weather websites that may access your zip code for perhaps a more accurate picture.....

Don't freak out and leave the planet yet.  Also, why not check with your neighbors to see what their experience is. Didn't you also say there was a 20+ foot mango tree down the road near you?  That should speak pretty loudly too!!!!

Gary

[MarinFla]

Gary, wait until I post pics from the ship once I get home to a computer...

While everyone was hitting the town in Portland living the life...I found the nearest mart and stocked up on mangos for the trip back homevere..everyone thought I was crazy..I don't think they understand my passion for mangos lol

We get it! My daughter would go on patrol on the USCG Gallatin for 100+ day long patrols out of Charleston. The fresh mangoes and bananas would be gone within the first week out to sea and she (a South Floridian from birth) would dream of tropical fruit until they ported somewhere from Gitmo to Panama or Colombia after 30-40+ days out to sea. First stop after finding dry land....a hotel and MANGOES!! and well.... maybe an ice cold mango margarita
Her high endurance cutter will be retired/decom at the end of this month and she is being restationed closer to Florida (Brunswick GA) so now I won't have to be shipping her home grown mangoes to Charleston anymore THANK GOD! I can just drive them up to Jacksonville!
Good luck with your trees! You have made a great selection.

[BluePalm]

BluePalm is a man.

Sincerely,
BluePalm

 

[JF]

Hi Clay. I lived in Murrieta for 2 years so I am familiar with the growing conditions out there. The soil is tight packed clay and is a bear to dig a hole. The summers as you mentioned are very hot and very dry. I remember in 2004-2005 (I think that is the winter) it snowed about 3-4" there...it killed a Plumeria in my front yard.  I don't think it is a good mango/lychee/longan climate, but plums, cherries, apples, etc. seem to do well there.
I wish you the best with your tropicals.

BluePalm

Mark, JF, Gary, Mango Surf, Everybody!!!

Blue Palm on this thread here has scared me to death when he mentionted snow and really cold weather... Well I've been trying to dig research on the climate and so I've found that the lows typically don't drop below 30 on a typical Winter. However this Wikipedia Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murrieta,_California     Mentions that Murrieta/Temecula has several Micro Climates that have seen Temps vary as  much as 18 degrees.    "The city is also subject to the phenomenon typical of a microclimate: temperatures can vary as much as 18°F (10°C) between inland areas and the coast"

Anyone have any information on this Micro Climate buisness? I'm scared now for my babies..I mean we only saw 33 this year, but then again this was a mild winter.

Clay

Like I said, I believe is this thread, I was in Temecula/Murrieta Friday around de Luz road if you are around that area you will have no problem growing mango. I will let you know in April when I visit my friend again.

[MangoFang]

oops...my bad, Blue Palm.  For some reason I get you mixed up with MarinFla....

apologies.....Gary

[ClayMango]

Gary, wait until I post pics from the ship once I get home to a computer...

While everyone was hitting the town in Portland living the life...I found the nearest mart and stocked up on mangos for the trip back homevere..everyone thought I was crazy..I don't think they understand my passion for mangos lol

We get it! My daughter would go on patrol on the USCG Gallatin for 100+ day long patrols out of Charleston. The fresh mangoes and bananas would be gone within the first week out to sea and she (a South Floridian from birth) would dream of tropical fruit until they ported somewhere from Gitmo to Panama or Colombia after 30-40+ days out to sea. First stop after finding dry land....a hotel and MANGOES!! and well.... maybe an ice cold mango margarita
Her high endurance cutter will be retired/decom at the end of this month and she is being restationed closer to Florida (Brunswick GA) so now I won't have to be shipping her home grown mangoes to Charleston anymore THANK GOD! I can just drive them up to Jacksonville!
Good luck with your trees! You have made a great selection.

Wow...I guess I'm not the only one after all... And thanks for your Daughters service to our Country! I know she makes Mama Proud!