Author Topic: Mango: a modified Walter Zill grafting Technique for the blind gardener  (Read 18395 times)

sc4001992

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Re: Mango: a modified Walter Zill grafting Technique for the blind gardener
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2021, 09:16:28 PM »
sapote, what type of fruit tree were you grafting that takes 2yrs for scion to bud out? Just curious.

FlMikey

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Re: Mango: a modified Walter Zill grafting Technique for the blind gardener
« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2021, 09:41:52 PM »
I'll be attempting this method on a Venus tree with 3 graft points.  In some of the pictures in this thread, it looks like this graft is done on a more woody part of the tree.  The areas I'm thinking about are a mixture of woody / green, so hoping this works well.  This will be my first time trying to graft, so I might as well be a "blind gardener".  I'll try to post pics of the process / results.  Do the areas I have marked look like good locations to attempt this graft?









FlMikey

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I used this technique today on my Venus, and hoping the grafts took, although I'm not sure.  Did my best to get some pics, but I don't have any of the left lateral side branch graft, and my camera was having issues focusing on close up shots on the others.

Center branch pics -





Right lateral side branch pics -





I think my biggest challenge was finding a position on the Venus tree that was wide enough to fit the scion into.  In one of the earlier posts, I believe sapote mentions this method is best when you have 4" of room to work with.  I had roughly 1", or maybe slightly less.  I was able to get the scions in, but it was tight. 

Right now, I have a bag taped over the scions, and sprayed a little bit of water in the bag, so it has a humid environment and also prevent water from getting into the scion. 

I'll post results here.  This is fun and really hope it works!!!

bsbullie

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I used this technique today on my Venus, and hoping the grafts took, although I'm not sure.  Did my best to get some pics, but I don't have any of the left lateral side branch graft, and my camera was having issues focusing on close up shots on the others.

Center branch pics -





Right lateral side branch pics -





I think my biggest challenge was finding a position on the Venus tree that was wide enough to fit the scion into.  In one of the earlier posts, I believe sapote mentions this method is best when you have 4" of room to work with.  I had roughly 1", or maybe slightly less.  I was able to get the scions in, but it was tight. 

Right now, I have a bag taped over the scions, and sprayed a little bit of water in the bag, so it has a humid environment and also prevent water from getting into the scion. 

I'll post results here.  This is fun and really hope it works!!!

Did you peel down to/past the cadmium layer on the scion?  If so, would not have done so.  Regular veneer would have been your best option.
- Rob

FlMikey

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I used this technique today on my Venus, and hoping the grafts took, although I'm not sure.  Did my best to get some pics, but I don't have any of the left lateral side branch graft, and my camera was having issues focusing on close up shots on the others.

Center branch pics -





Right lateral side branch pics -





I think my biggest challenge was finding a position on the Venus tree that was wide enough to fit the scion into.  In one of the earlier posts, I believe sapote mentions this method is best when you have 4" of room to work with.  I had roughly 1", or maybe slightly less.  I was able to get the scions in, but it was tight. 

Right now, I have a bag taped over the scions, and sprayed a little bit of water in the bag, so it has a humid environment and also prevent water from getting into the scion. 

I'll post results here.  This is fun and really hope it works!!!

Did you peel down to/past the cadmium layer on the scion?  If so, would not have done so.  Regular veneer would have been your best option.

I believe I did peel a little past the cambium layer.  I tried to keep it shallow.  I chose this method because it looked like the easiest for a beginner.  I've never grafted before (and haven't had an opportunity to see grafting in person), so I wanted to try something that was "dummy" proof.  In any case, why are you recommending side veneer?  Just trying to learn.

I also did a Guave mango tree, that I grafted Angie, and that one I used a side cleft graft.  I was forced to use it though as I didn't have enough bark on the tree for this grave / coffin technique.  I hope that one takes.




bsbullie

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Cleft may be the most dummy proof.  In my opinion,  the "coffin" graft is a poor method (and has nothing to do with nor any resemblance to a graft by Walter Zill).  I am not sure why you would have stripped the scion.  Cant see anything hood to come of that.

If done right, side veneer is a fast take and makes for a good graft union.
- Rob

bsbullie

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I just noticed that what I thought was the scion being stripped was the tree you are grafting onto.  Did you cut the branch to match the scion wood so that its a flat match?

I am still not a fan of this type of graft
- Rob

FlMikey

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I just noticed that what I thought was the scion being stripped was the tree you are grafting onto.  Did you cut the branch to match the scion wood so that its a flat match?

I am still not a fan of this type of graft

Yes the scion wood was as close to flat as I could get it to the branch.  If this doesn't take, I'll try the side veneer - I'm definitely not giving up.  Also, I don't have an option to try this technique again as the bark wouldn't be wide enough on the tree branches I'm grafting.  That said, if it fails, will the tree heal the box area where I stripped the bark, or should I apply something to help it heal?

FlMikey

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On the Venus, it looks like 2/3 out of the 3 will have takes (the 3rd is still green so unknown status currently).  However, on the main central lead branch, I see the scion has a small brown square shape where the scion meets the bottom of the rootstock.  I'm not sure if this is part of the healing process or if this is rot that needs to be cut off.  Does anyone have suggestions - cut it off or leave as is?

Main central branch pics:





Left lateral branch pic (didn't have a pic of the graft at the time I did it, but can see it's pushing):



simon_grow

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The brown area looks fine. If the graft is good, it should heal over. Just be careful with all the rubber bands. If they are placed on too tightly, it could restrict the sap flow. Some grafts will grow vigorously and as the union heals and expands, it could restrict the growth of the scion. I’m not saying it’s too tight but just keep your eye on it. Good luck with your grafts!

Simon

FlMikey

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The brown area looks fine. If the graft is good, it should heal over. Just be careful with all the rubber bands. If they are placed on too tightly, it could restrict the sap flow. Some grafts will grow vigorously and as the union heals and expands, it could restrict the growth of the scion. I’m not saying it’s too tight but just keep your eye on it. Good luck with your grafts!

Simon

Thank you very much for the input and help Simon!  Noted about the rubber bands too.  At what point is it safe to remove the elastic bands?  I was thinking 4 weeks after the graft, but that's a purely arbitrary number.

simon_grow

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What you can do is re tie the bands a bit more loose at week 4. By week 4, especially in Florida, the union should at least be partially healed over if the graft was good it you still want something to prevent the scion from getting knocked off.

As long as the bands aren’t girdling the union, you could probably leave it on until the union has completely healed over.

Simon

FlMikey

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What you can do is re tie the bands a bit more loose at week 4. By week 4, especially in Florida, the union should at least be partially healed over if the graft was good it you still want something to prevent the scion from getting knocked off.

As long as the bands aren’t girdling the union, you could probably leave it on until the union has completely healed over.

Simon

Thanks again!  I think I'll play it safe and carefully remove and loosen the bands at week 4.  I know I pulled them pretty tight on 2/3 of them, so would rather play it safe.  I'll post results, good or bad, here in a couple weeks.

sapote

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sapote, what type of fruit tree were you grafting that takes 2yrs for scion to bud out? Just curious.

Sorry I have not checked back often enough. It is a Cat Hoa Loc scion on a Glen rootstock. I think it has nothing to do with the varieties, but due to the very green young scion that delayed the new shoot pushing process, then all other grafts already pushed new shoots and the rootstock just ignore this green/young scion. Unless I prune the branch above it, I don't think it will ever push a new shoot.

sapote

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On the Venus, it looks like 2/3 out of the 3 will have takes (the 3rd is still green so unknown status currently).  However, on the main central lead branch, I see the scion has a small brown square shape where the scion meets the bottom of the rootstock.  I'm not sure if this is part of the healing process or if this is rot that needs to be cut off.  Does anyone have suggestions - cut it off or leave as is?

Some observation:
The branch above the graft should be cut off to promote the "energy" flows to the scion and push new shoots.
The "hole" was dig too wide for the small coffin. Try to get the hole size close to the scion width and length.
The idea rootstock branch should be 1" or a little larger. Brown or green wood is fine.
Don't disturb the tape or rubber band the first few weeks to avoid separating the graft joint.

FlMikey

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Hi Sapote!  Thanks for chiming in.

I cut the new shoots off, but left some of the leaves above the graft to draw energy up.  Are you saying I need to cut more leaves off?

Here are some pictures to gauge how many leaves I have on the 2 branches where the scion is still green, but hasn't pushed yet.  Tomorrow will be 4 weeks, so am still hopeful.







I see buds forming on the right lateral branch of the tree.  Should I tip prune these to beneath the small bud growth?





There's a small bud growing on the center main lead branch too.  Should I tip prune here as well to beneath the small bud growth?



Tomorrow I was planning on changing the bags so that I can check the scions (I can see they're still green through the bag though), so will take pictures of the scions themselves.

Thank you for any input you can provide!

FlMikey

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Hey Sapote,

I changed the bags this morning, so the bags are completely transparent instead of the tan tint.  Hopefully I'll see some growth soon  ;D

I think the right lateral branch may be a take.  I say that because the scion is still really green.  I'd imagine if it was a failure, I would see it drying up now.  Apologies for clearness / flash brightness, the photo was taken early this morning.


The middle branch is still green, but I observe some signs of drying up a bit.  I also saw signs of the tree trying to sprout some green shoots below the scion, so I cut those off in case it drains energy.  Thinking is I don't have a take there as the tree is trying to push energy into new shoots instead of the scion.








The final product  8)



I'm hoping that within the next 2 weeks, I get lucky.

FlMikey

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The scions are still green (approaching 5 weeks), and I tip pruned both branches a bit more to try to divert energy to the scions.  Does anyone have any tips to encourage scion growth?  I was thinking of foliar application of liquid seaweed to the leaves above the scions?  Not sure if this would even do anything though or just send more energy to the leaves instead of the scion.  Thanks in advance for any feedback!!!

sapote

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Hi Sapote!  Thanks for chiming in.
I cut the new shoots off, but left some of the leaves above the graft to draw energy up.  Are you saying I need to cut more leaves off?

It seems you left too many nodes above the graft where the tree will try to push out new shoots. I would cut below all nodes and save any leaves below the last node. In SoCal there are leaves in between the nodes.

On the graft, I would use clear tape and tape up from bottom to top of the scion -- do leave about 2mm gap at the bottom of the coffin for any moisture to drain. Once I see the new buds I then carefully open the tape and then wrap around the buds and expose the buds but cover the remain scion.

pick off any new shoots not from the scion.

All your scions still have the chance.

I looked carefully at all your grafts: you have the scions not completely covered and this could dehydrate them. Cover them bottom to top but only leave about 2mm gap at the bottom for drainage.

Make sure to cut off the top branch below the last node. If no leaves below it, it's OK.

Last pic looks like there is new bud on the scion.  I think if you had cut off the top branch below the last node then the scions already have new shoots by now.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 12:24:31 AM by sapote »

FlMikey

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Thank you for the very helpful reply!!

I took your advice and tried tipping more growth off, but if I cut below the node, then there won't be any leaves above the scions.  This is what it looks like now:




Does it look good, or should I completely remove all the leaves now?

I believe the center branch may be pushing as I see some growth coming out (it rained this morning so sorry about the water in the pic):



Tomorrow I'll work on wrapping the buddy tape like you're saying.  I made a tiny slit in the bag, and I've been using a water bottle to spray water in the bag and on the scions 2 - 3 times per day, then seal the bag where I made the slit.  I was concerned it would dry out, but wrapping with the buddy tape is probably better in case I'm unable to spray.

sapote

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I made a tiny slit in the bag, and I've been using a water bottle to spray water in the bag and on the scions 2 - 3 times per day, then seal the bag where I made the slit.  I was concerned it would dry out, but wrapping with the buddy tape is probably better in case I'm unable to spray.

You are in the rain country and so there is no need for spraying water. I am in dry SoCal climate and never need such. Too much moisture under the cover bag could be the reason why some of your scions have the black mold -- bacteria.

Re the top branch, I would try to cut below all the nodes, or just have about 3 or 4 leaves remain for each graft. If needed, provide shake protection from strong hot sun.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 05:17:11 PM by sapote »

FlMikey

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Thank you!  So are you saying where I have the arrows in these pics of the scions it's mold? 

Right lateral branch scion


Main central branch scion


I have a new bag taped around the scions, but have not been spraying.  The bag is trapping the humidity though, so I will remove if it looks like mold.

Additionally, if it's indeed mold that I'm referencing in the main central branch scion pictures, should I carefully remove that section of the scion so the mold doesn't spread?


sapote

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I would leave them alone -- healthy three will overcome the mold, but don't need to cover with bag.

FlMikey

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Success on 2/3 grave coffins.  EXCELLENT results considering was my first time grafting.  It was about 6-7 weeks but I'm very happy they took!

Here's a pic of both of them.  The right lateral branch is much farther along than the central lead.



Better shot of the right side.



Main central lead making some headway.



Keeping the central lead shaded for a while longer until it grows more.


I've been keeping a loose rubber band on the right branch as it's completely uncovered now, and I was concerned with the wind blowing it off.  Is this valid, or should it be ok with just the tape on?  Also, at what point should I remove the tape?

Thanks again for this great method!!!

MangoMaven888

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Providing an update on my Venus (under different screen name, got locked out my previous & unable to restore.  Ended up getting 1/3 success on my first grafting attempt.  2 years later, I have fruit on my Orange Essence scion grafted to my Venus  ;D