Author Topic: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy  (Read 28392 times)

Central Floridave

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2015, 09:55:23 AM »
as a disclaimer, I refuse to use any pesticide/fungicide.  If it can't grow naturally other than occasional watering/fertilizer, I don't want anything to do with it.   I'm not a commercial grower or a winery.  I've always want to grow grape though and stroke out with a few other different variety. Tari's burgundy seems like a winner.  2nd year in a row of heavy fruiting with my plant.   I just want to eat the fruit while I do yard work. I have no interest in jelly/wine/juicing. Just eat out of hand.   5 pounds of fruit is enough.

for the experts, how important is trimming the vine back? I've read about the techniques, but how important is it?  Can I just let this vine grow out as much as it wants?  Or, to maximize fruit, should I hack it back to a single stem every winter?   It seems like the fruit developing is only near the stem this year with the vine that is further away there is no fruit. So, I'm thinking of next winter to trim it back and trellis it a little better.  Any advice is appreciated thanks! 


Mark in Texas

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2015, 10:08:08 AM »
Well as a disclaimer, I use and practice only methods that are safe to the environment and one's personal health.  I also train using Vertical Shoot Positioning or VSP.

Good luck

Central Floridave

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2015, 10:17:07 AM »
Thanks. I'll look up VSP.   I'm currently eating store bought grapes so I hope they use safe practices as well! 

FruitFreak

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2015, 10:45:29 AM »
Mark - Do you have any references that may provide additional information on VSP etc? 

I regularly spray most of my trees and plants with southern AG Neem mixed with nutrients.  However, its always a major bonus when you can plant something that doesn't require much effort to grow.  I'm currently looking at the following varieties for dooryard out of hand.

Florida Fry
Southern Home
Dunstans Dream
- Marley

Mark in Texas

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2015, 11:11:56 AM »
Thanks. I'll look up VSP.   I'm currently eating store bought grapes so I hope they use safe practices as well!

Nobody in Texas (or anywhere else for that matter) is using anything that hasn't been deemed safe by professionals either linked to Texas AgriLife or a research facility.  Vineyard managers are ethically and legally bound by how and when they use chemicals, how long before re-entry, how long one must wait until harvest, etc.  It is very strict and regulated. For instance one copper type fungicide, mancozeb, can not and is not used sooner than 66 days before harvest.

Store bought grapes can't be trusted as they mainly come from Chile or Mexico and who knows what they're using and how much.  Unless you're buying them local and can trust the source you really have no way of knowing.  The ONLY way you'll know if there are harmful substances is by a fruit tissue analysis which organic purists will not do nor have they ever. They rely on feelings, not facts to drive their purchase decisions.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2015, 11:25:32 AM »
Mark - Do you have any references that may provide additional information on VSP etc? 

I regularly spray most of my trees and plants with southern AG Neem mixed with nutrients.  However, its always a major bonus when you can plant something that doesn't require much effort to grow.  I'm currently looking at the following varieties for dooryard out of hand.

Florida Fry
Southern Home
Dunstans Dream

Yeah, no one likes inputs as much as me.  I don't spray as a matter of principle. I spray based on disease pressures, especially bunch rot.  Contrary to popular belief grapes like Blanc du Bois, Black Spanish and other "natives" are not resistant to fungus diseases and in the case of Blanc du Bois, it can harbor Pierce's Disease. Doesn't mean it will kill it but if a sharpshooter feeds on the xylem and then feeds on a susceptible grape the latter will die.

We have a commercial organic grower that uses nothing but neem and apparently it's working.  Google VSP, plenty of info out there.  I'll show you the basic structure, after pruning this spring.  Took me years to get here and even then I have to go out every other day in the spring and debud buds off the side or bottom of the fruiting spur, shoot thin, etc. to keep that purty upright vertical profile. 
 
Grenache 2014, 6th leafing



2015

Before:



After:



Notice I have the fruiting spurs at least a fist or better width away from each other for better shoot positioning, more airflow.  You terminate the 3' cordons (6' total length) at each end so there is a 6" space left between vines.   Shoots will fill that in.  You want to have good airflow and light penetration.  With the cordon at 36-42" harvesting is easy, that's where the fruiting zone is.  I lay the drip line on the ground, most tie it to another wire about 8" above the ground which is "make work" to me. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 11:36:37 AM by Mark in Texas »

zands

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2015, 11:51:37 AM »
Mark - Do you have any references that may provide additional information on VSP etc? 

I regularly spray most of my trees and plants with southern AG Neem mixed with nutrients.  However, its always a major bonus when you can plant something that doesn't require much effort to grow.  I'm currently looking at the following varieties for dooryard out of hand.

Florida Fry
Southern Home
Dunstans Dream

Lowes here has Southern Home at 8$ for one gallon. The nursery where they are bred is in Apopka. Maybe your Lowes has them too.  Last year my Lowes had different muscadines at different time

gunnar429

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2015, 03:14:05 PM »
Mark - Do you have any references that may provide additional information on VSP etc? 

I regularly spray most of my trees and plants with southern AG Neem mixed with nutrients.  However, its always a major bonus when you can plant something that doesn't require much effort to grow.  I'm currently looking at the following varieties for dooryard out of hand.

Florida Fry
Southern Home
Dunstans Dream

Lowes here has Southern Home at 8$ for one gallon. The nursery where they are bred is in Apopka. Maybe your Lowes has them too.  Last year my Lowes had different muscadines at different time

Definitely include a Tari
There's also another hybrid called southern jewel that looks like it has potential.

I am most excited about: Tari bunch, dunstan's dream, southern jewel, delicious, southern home
~Jeff

"Say you just can't live that negative way, if you know what I mean. Make way for the positive day." - Positive Vibration

FruitFreak

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2015, 05:52:19 PM »
Mark - Amazing work my friend! Those are some impressive vines you have shaped.  Please share more pics with when you are closer to harvest.

Zands - I'll be sure to check out my local Lowes.

Gunman - My new Tari


Since this picture was taken it has exploded with new growth.  I have a bubbler staked at the rootball for irrigation and gave it a little fert.
- Marley

zands

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2015, 05:56:01 PM »
I'll show you the basic structure, after pruning this spring.  Took me years to get here and even then I have to go out every other day in the spring and debud buds off the side or bottom of the fruiting spur, shoot thin, etc. to keep that purty upright vertical profile. 
 
Grenache 2014, 6th leafing



2015

Before:



After:



Notice I have the fruiting spurs at least a fist or better width away from each other for better shoot positioning, more airflow.  You terminate the 3' cordons (6' total length) at each end so there is a 6" space left between vines.   Shoots will fill that in.  You want to have good airflow and light penetration.  With the cordon at 36-42" harvesting is easy, that's where the fruiting zone is.  I lay the drip line on the ground, most tie it to another wire about 8" above the ground which is "make work" to me.

Mark--

Do you think Muscadines could be pruned the same way your real vinifera grapes are? I really like your arrangement
Correct me if I am wrong but this is what I see

  • -- a thick grape trunk with two thick arms (branches) (cordons) with 6ft combined total length
  • -- you have about 8 fruiting spurs on each branch (cordon) making about 16 total
  • --after each grape harvest you prune back to the fruiting spur  (looks like you did early spring from one of the photos)
  • --each grape season you get new leaves and bunches of grapes
  • --- you have two rows of wires running above the main grape branches (cordons) to support grape bunches and foliage>>>meaning that>>>>>
  • --you are training your foliage into an upward growth each season to minimize chaos and make for easier grape picking-harvest
  • --  I think you have to go up and down the rows each week to hang wayward foliage and grapes on the two wires running above. To make sure they are hanging and clinging OK
thanks
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

zands

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2015, 06:07:38 PM »
@FruitFreak
Your Tari will out grow the lattice this year. This year or next you will have to cement posts into the ground and make a trellis. Mark has some good ideas on this thread and is "in the biz".
For real trellis posts you get 4inch by 4inch by 8ft posts/timbers. Dig with post hole digger. Place post in hole. Jam in some rocks. Pour in cement. More rocks. More cement. Lean some cement blocks against post so it does not shift while cement sets

I am prejudiced against lattices against (southern) walls for Muscadines. The grapes got lost in balloons of foliage
But Tari is only half muscadine so lattice away....for now..... 8)

Tari being a bunch grape, it will be harder to lose sight of the grapes. You are planting your Tari nice and early so you should get some grapes next year

Lowes muscadines--- they also might have alachua and delicious. Both are black muscadine grapes like Southern Home
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 07:21:06 PM by zands »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2015, 10:41:45 PM »
Mark--

Do you think Muscadines could be pruned the same way your real vinifera grapes are? I really like your arrangement

Yes, but is it the best for that variety, or grape family?  It's my understanding you could go from a 6' wide cordon for a vinifera to a 12' cordon with a muscadine due to their vigor.  If I did muscadine, that's what I'd do - a very long cordon.

Quote
Correct me if I am wrong but this is what I see

  • -- a thick grape trunk with two thick arms (branches) (cordons) with 6ft combined total length
  • -- you have about 8 fruiting spurs on each branch (cordon) making about 16 total
  • --after each grape harvest you prune back to the fruiting spur  (looks like you did early spring from one of the photos)
  • --each grape season you get new leaves and bunches of grapes
  • --- you have two rows of wires running above the main grape branches (cordons) to support grape bunches and foliage>>>meaning that>>>>>
  • --you are training your foliage into an upward growth each season to minimize chaos and make for easier grape picking-harvest
  • --  I think you have to go up and down the rows each week to hang wayward foliage and grapes on the two wires running above. To make sure they are hanging and clinging OK
thanks

You are a quick learner. Basically yes to all of the above.  I run a 12.5 ga. cordon wire about 36-42" above the ground.  That is used to support a permanent T - trunk and cordon arms.  After planting, when my very young trunk reaches that cordon wire I pinch it off just above the wire and take the most vigorous upper most, top laterals, one on each side, and start training, tieing them down and along the cordon wire while removing all other shoots that are useless to me that occur along the trunk below that point.  This insures all vine resources are directed into my future profile, the trunk and very young, brand new shoots that are my future cordon shoots/canes.  Most folks just let their vines go wild the first year.  You don't have to do that, you're wasting time to get to where you want to go.  You can get a full term trunk and cordon the first year by pinching out the crap you don't want and tieing down what you do want.  When the young shoots reach the end of their cordon run, the 3' run each side, I clip them to induce lateral branching which will become the future fruiting spurs of 1-4 buds each.  There will be plenty of buds pushing that want to go south and sideways, remove them as they occur the first year and every year thereafter.  It's really easy, but quite labor intensive, at least for the first couple of years.

Now....you can either be sloppy/lazy with your daily activities and have a mess, or, you can get your boots out into the vineyard and train your new shoots up between (2) 16 ga. catch wires about 14" above the cordon wire and another 12-18" above the first catch wires each year.   Use a ratchet type fence tightener to wrench up and tighten the wires each spring. Loosen them to relieve tension during the winter.





« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:58:27 PM by Mark in Texas »

From the sea

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2015, 07:40:43 AM »
I have been growing this for 3 years now. It does well here with the warm winters, It goes dormant when the temps are still in the 70's, and grows fast but not too fast. I am going to try wine with it this year. 

zands

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2015, 12:18:16 PM »
I have been growing this for 3 years now. It does well here with the warm winters, It goes dormant when the temps are still in the 70's, and grows fast but not too fast. I am going to try wine with it this year.

What is this? How do they taste? Tari is "this"? What month have they been ripe?  thanks!

zands

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2015, 01:07:18 PM »
@Mark in Texas
Thanks for the further information. I have to read it a few times to understand it. I get the part about Muscadines being wild so needing double the cordon length to run

Mark in Texas

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2015, 02:32:46 PM »
@Mark in Texas
Thanks for the further information. I have to read it a few times to understand it. I get the part about Muscadines being wild so needing double the cordon length to run

Time to get that neck red and those finger nails dirty.  Then you'll understand.  :D
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 08:02:57 AM by Mark in Texas »

From the sea

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2015, 06:44:02 PM »
I have been growing this for 3 years now. It does well here with the warm winters, It goes dormant when the temps are still in the 70's, and grows fast but not too fast. I am going to try wine with it this year.

What is this? How do they taste? Tari is "this"? What month have they been ripe?  thanks!

yes tari is the this, late may to june. last year most of the fruit fell off because I didn't water enough, but the fruit from the year before were good; sweet, sour had a thicker skin, but the skin wasn't bitter.

zands

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2015, 08:25:00 PM »
I have been growing this for 3 years now. It does well here with the warm winters, It goes dormant when the temps are still in the 70's, and grows fast but not too fast. I am going to try wine with it this year.

What is this? How do they taste? Tari is "this"? What month have they been ripe?  thanks!

yes tari is the this, late may to june. last year most of the fruit fell off because I didn't water enough, but the fruit from the year before were good; sweet, sour had a thicker skin, but the skin wasn't bitter.

Thanks for the further information on Tari. Non-bitter skin is sounding good. Astringent thick skin with muscadines...keeps out the fungus and insects

zands

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2015, 09:41:44 PM »
@Mark in Texas




Those are wine grapes but how do they taste just eating fresh? They look sweet and delicious going by their dark dark color and bunch firmness=health

Mark in Texas

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2015, 08:41:05 AM »
Well considering the brix is way up there upon harvest, 23-27* they taste sugary and very grapey or fruity.  Problem is the seeds.  I do have some really outstanding seedless varieties I can recommend - the Summer or Autumn Royal and Crimson seedless.  Those are the real big black or rose colored grapes you see in the stores from Chile. They are also very crunchy as opposed to my wine grapes that tend to be juicy. It is not unusual to get 1 gal. of juice per 10-13 lbs. from most of my varietals if you're into grape juice with no amendments of water, sugar, or acid.  The jelly is excellent.  We'll make up a batch of say....merlot, add blueberries to the boiling mix to kick it up a notch and then can. 

For a white that makes excellent wine and is great for eating fresh due to few seeds, Vermentino, an italian grape is excellent.  Italians use this for a table grape too.  Here's some friends/customers holding up Vermentino during a crush. It makes a large, broad shouldered cluster.  Unlike muscadines, it doesn't take many of these to fill up a 25 lb. bucket.





« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 08:51:55 AM by Mark in Texas »

mangomandan

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2015, 10:52:56 AM »
Great pictures, guys. There is something about big bunches of grapes that suggests plenitude and opulent, bounteous fruitfulness.*

I am in the process of turning an old porch swing into an grape arbor. Already got a couple nice plants from Mike at Bender's.


*yup, I have a thesaurus  :o

Central Floridave

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2015, 10:45:25 AM »
Thanks for all the info on cultivating grape. Interesting info!

Here is current shot of my Tari's Burgundy and my lazy-man trellis.







mangomandan

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2015, 08:12:34 AM »
My old porch swing was too heavy to lug to the curb.
It was easier to plant grapes next to it. I guess the next step is some sort of mesh for the plants to latch onto.




zands

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2015, 08:58:34 AM »
My old porch swing was too heavy to lug to the curb.
It was easier to plant grapes next to it. I guess the next step is some sort of mesh for the plants to latch onto.




No mesh needed.
Looks like Tari from your photo. Very nice mangoes aside it. what kind? Grapes are very needy and clingy :) with the tendrils they send out.    Get some free Home Depot twine and string some from the swing set to the wooden fence. If I am a grape vine I am headed to the wooden fence to colonize it

Great pictures, guys. There is something about big bunches of grapes that suggests plenitude and opulent, bounteous fruitfulness.*

yep and they get many mentions in the Bible. Sadly enough mangoes, lychees, avocados, citrus don't get any :(
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 09:06:47 AM by zands »

mangomandan

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Re: Grape for Florida Tari's Burgundy
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2015, 12:12:35 PM »
I think we just have to assume, Zands. After all, it would not have been a true Eden without mangoes.

I have some twine. But the grapes would eventually have to compete with weedy vines that come from the other side of the fence (which I don't have access to). The mango tree to the left is a Dot. Some parts of it have some nice clusters growing. Other parts not so great, but I'm hoping for a good year overall.