Tasting “Luc’s” Mexican Garcinia - Female tree with large fruit

[Sleepdoc]

Today I picked and tried a “Luc’s” Mexican Garcinia from my 2nd largest tree. 

I made a quick video to show the tree and fruit.  I definitely picked it too early, as it definitely wasn’t fully ripe.  More to come in the next week or two, when I’ll try to get the timing right and have some other forum members give it a try.

As Harry used to say - stay tuned ...

https://youtu.be/bzWNUGPT4_c

[bradflorida]

Hi Clint,

Hope you’re doing well.  Thanks for posting the video!  My 6 foot tree flowered this year but dropped all of the flowers. 

I’m looking forward to the follow up video. 

Brad

[Epicatt2]

Sleepdoc,

Thanx for the video.  Helpful to see this tree and fruit since I have only one Luc's which is only a couple feet tall but starting to grow a bit faster now.  It's kept mostly in the shade.

What I did not know until seeing your video and comments was that this species is dioecious.  Is there any physical way to ID the males from the female plants before they bloom?

Or, having only a male around (should that be what mine turns out to be) will a male tree bloom and set any fruit?

Again, enquiring minds . . . .

Cheers!

Paul M.
==

[Stevo]

I've noticed that Lucs garcinia trees can have male and female flowers at the same time and the ratio of male to female flowers can vary
from season to season and I've seen Russell Sweet Garcinia do the same

[fruitlovers]

I've noticed that Lucs garcinia trees can have male and female flowers at the same time and the ratio of male to female flowers can vary
from season to season and I've seen Russell Sweet Garcinia do the same

I think male and hermaphrodite flowers at same time, not male and female.

[Sleepdoc]

Thanks for the comments.  From what a few of us here in S.Fla have noticed, there seems to be some trees that produce predominantly female flowers or hermaphrodite flowers, and others that produce predominantly male flowers.  Brandon has good # of trees that were/are predominantly female/hermaphrodite, and my larger tree predominantly male.   We are talking 100’s, if not 1000’s of male flowers on my male tree that produces 1 or 2 runt fruit per season.  Brandon had the opposite issue with what I’m calling “female” trees. 

It could be that once the tree’s mature they will produce mixed flowers.  Time will tell.  But for now we are collecting pollen from my male tree and hand pollinating to get quite good fruit set.  At least these things are easy to hand pollinate, and all flower at pretty much the same time.

[cbss_daviefl]

Awesome video Clint!

I have 4 "female" flowering trees. In January, all four trees flowered. Two of the trees produce a small number of male flowers. I hand pollinated using the male flowers but none of the hundreds of female flowers developed into fruit. This April, all 4 trees flowered again. This time I gathered the male flowers from Clint's tree and used the male flowers to hand pollinate. All 4 trees have developing fruit.

This February, I grafted scions from Clint's male tree to one of my female trees. I took scions from the upward growing tips of secondary branches and grafted 4 of them to similar locations.  So far, the new growth has been stunted. I also did a veneer graft in a more protected area and that is even more stunted. I cleft grafted 2 scions to 7 gallon potted plants in my shade house and those put out growth that is close to normal.

Fruit!


Grafts of male scions


Flowering in January that produced zero fruit

[TropicalFruitHunters]

You guys really know how to ruin a party.  Incredible blooms and fruit though.

[fruitlovers]

Thanks for the comments.  From what a few of us here in S.Fla have noticed, there seems to be some trees that produce predominantly female flowers or hermaphrodite flowers, and others that produce predominantly male flowers.  Brandon has good # of trees that were/are predominantly female/hermaphrodite, and my larger tree predominantly male.   We are talking 100’s, if not 1000’s of male flowers on my male tree that produces 1 or 2 runt fruit per season.  Brandon had the opposite issue with what I’m calling “female” trees. 

It could be that once the tree’s mature they will produce mixed flowers.  Time will tell.  But for now we are collecting pollen from my male tree and hand pollinating to get quite good fruit set.  At least these things are easy to hand pollinate, and all flower at pretty much the same time.

Have similar experience here. But time will tell if there is any change in the flowering patterns of these trees?

[Mike T]

The gender pattern in Garcinias seems to be complex. Many species seem to occupy the gender disneyland between monoecious and dioecious and some change sex or become more male or female as they age. I have 3 mature flowering Luc's. They flower as much as 5 times a year with no seasonal pattern. On 2 flowers are over 95% male and fruit set is light with only a few fruit setting from each flush. Fruit reach less than achacha size in most cases. I am hoping the proportions favour female flowers as the trees grow. The big ass dragging tree I have is older but only just flowering for the second time after flowering for the first time a couple of months ago. So far all flowers have been male. I have 2 small jumbos in the ground also and another standard Luc's and hopefully they will be more in touch with their female sides. I suspect all trees are monos with flower proportions varying wildly.

[Mike T]

This is what I see on my Lucs Garcinia and quite frequently I might add. A profusion of male flowers and the afternoon aroma is intoxicating.But a closer examination reveals more.


The occasional female flower and they are quite distinctive. This applies to many garcinias and this is what male and female flowers look like and many species including a number of Asian species like dulcis. It is easy to jump to conclusions that trees are male or female but it may take a while for the tree to show its true colours. Mine trees were always mono but just pretended to be males when they opened their accounts.



Lets look closer at male and female flowers of the Luc's Garcinia. The picture tells the story and shows what to look for in all Garcinias.

[Mike T]

While we are on a roll ny G.macrophylla has decided to get its ship together. Here is a female flower on that tree and look how similar it is to the Luc's.

[fruitlovers]

This is what I see on my Lucs Garcinia and quite frequently I might add. A profusion of male flowers and the afternoon aroma is intoxicating.But a closer examination reveals more.


The occasional female flower and they are quite distinctive. This applies to many garcinias and this is what male and female flowers look like and many species including a number of Asian species like dulcis. It is easy to jump to conclusions that trees are male or female but it may take a while for the tree to show its true colours. Mine trees were always mono but just pretended to be males when they opened their accounts.



Lets look closer at male and female flowers of the Luc's Garcinia. The picture tells the story and shows what to look for in all Garcinias.

Mike, are you sure those flowers are females, and not hermaphrodite flowers? If so post a photo of hermaphrodite flower to compare with?

[TropicalFruitHunters]

Good question Oscar.  Nearly all of the flowers on my madronos look like this and they are getting pollinated...by sugar ants.  I have noticed a couple distinct male flowers, but they were seldom present when the herm(?) flowers were.  So something seems to be working.  Unfortunately, my Luc's doesn't want to join the party.

[cbss_daviefl]

With my trees, there have been 3 - 4 flowerings per year for the last 2 - 3 years with zero fruit set without external pollen. Most flowers appear to be hermaphrodite and some appear to be male.   This is on 4 trees so it is not a self incompatibility issue. When I hand pollenate with pollen from Clint's tree, I get proper fruit set without fail. I have a chairecuela that produced a single flower this January and it set fruit that grew to maturity. My chairecuela is a true hermaphrodite. My luc's do not produce viable pollen.

[Mike T]

Good question alright Oscar and the size of the pistol and style do suggest female and the anthers appear sterile but I cant be sure of course. Some pictures from allegedly female trees would crack this case wide open.  I would expect a much larger pistol and style and atrophied male parts. We havent extablished if there are male trees or female trees nor have we established if bisex trees have male and female or male and bisex flowersor for that matter female and bisex. My sample size is too small but I would not be shocked if all trees are bisex with varying proportions of male an female flowers. Could even be a bit of climate triggered phenotypic plasticity.
We need people to snap some pix of flowers on their trees and if a 3rd type of flower exists I would love to see it.

[Mike T]

For reference G.brasiliensis comes in male, female and bisex trees. Pistillate flowers may have functional or non functional anthers and female trees may produce sterile male flowers. Apomixus also occurs so its complicated.

[Mike T]

Just maybe some of the Luc's are trisexual.

[cbss_daviefl]

I had the same idea that pics would help see what was going on but I really can't a smoking gun. I wish I had taken some close ups of Clint's flowers. Here are some close up pics I took with my phone of my Luc's flowers. Maybe someone can see something.
 




These are pics of the chairecuela that are definitely hermaphrodite.

[Mike T]

They look just the same as the 2 flower types on my Luc's but of course if male parts are sterile not bisex flowers. A trieocious tree would have male female and bisex flowers.

[Mike T]

On reflection if I do have male and bisex flowers would that make my trees trisex trees? I some female flowers were found also then they might be quadrisex trees. But alas I think I just have male and female flowers on them.

[Mango Stein]

On reflection if I do have male and bisex flowers would that make my trees trisex trees? I some female flowers were found also then they might be quadrisex trees. But alas I think I just have male and female flowers on them.

Common figs have just female flowers, whereas caprifigs have male and female. Therefore the species is deemed to be "gynodioecious."

Perhaps some Garcinias are "androdioecious." Though the analogy is not quite the same.

[Sleepdoc]

Update :  2nd fruit from the tree

https://youtu.be/vR7mtPA9Dnc

[fruitlovers]

On reflection if I do have male and bisex flowers would that make my trees trisex trees? I some female flowers were found also then they might be quadrisex trees. But alas I think I just have male and female flowers on them.

A tree with mostly male flowers and a few hermaphrodite flowers is then a hermaphrodite tree. Male trees don't make fruits, by definition. If a tree has male, female, and also hermaphrodite flowers that would be very interesting. I've never seen that. Don't see what the biological purpose would be for a tree to produce both female and hermaphrodite flowers? But garcinias have very strange sex lives.

[Mike T]

The biological purpose of male and hermaphrodite flowers on the same tree is also questionable and I think male and female are more likely. I think the naming conventions probably dont distinguish between a tree producing all hermaphrodite and hermaphrodite and male flowers. The difference between hermaphrodite and female flowers is likely to be subtle and relate to sterile male parts on the female flower.

[fruitlovers]

The biological purpose of male and hermaphrodite flowers on the same tree is also questionable and I think male and female are more likely. I think the naming conventions probably dont distinguish between a tree producing all hermaphrodite and hermaphrodite and male flowers. The difference between hermaphrodite and female flowers is likely to be subtle and relate to sterile male parts on the female flower.

Biological purpose of male + hermaphrodite seems pretty clear to me, and that is production in solitary trees, which would otherwise bear no fruits.

[Mike T]

Not what I was getting at really. Does that level of clarity extend to reasoning why a hermaphrodite tree with predominantly male flowers would 'choose' to produce bisex flowers rather than female flowers as the second flower type? Female flower production would equally address the isolation and there is no need for extra pollen production.

[fruitlovers]

Not what I was getting at really. Does that level of clarity extend to reasoning why a hermaphrodite tree with predominantly male flowers would 'choose' to produce bisex flowers rather than female flowers as the second flower type? Female flower production would equally address the isolation and there is no need for extra pollen production.

I don't know, but it seems for some reason it's easier for male trees to suddenly produce some hermaphrodite flower than to produce female flowers. Look, for example, at what male papaya trees do. Ever seen a male papaya tree suddenly produce female flowers? But they can suddenly start producing hermaphroditic flowers. Similar in garcinias. Lone male imbe (G. livingstoneii) will sometimes produce hermaphroditic flowers and set fruits.

[Mike T]

Good point Oscar and it may be physiologically harder for that tree to produce female flowers. Male papaya fruit are different from those from  bisex tree being seedless and having diminished taste. Maybe the flower is not a regular bisex one also. Back to Garcinias, I have been a bit frustrated that my russell and luc  have been gender bending or not producing good crops of full sized fruit. Makes me wonder if like some reptiles their environment rather than genetics is driving sex determination.

[Sleepdoc]

The fruit keep dropping from the tree, found 3 on the ground this morning.  They are yellow, but still pretty hard and I think not yet ripe.  I’ll probably open one today as a few people are stopping by. The others most likely I’ll let sit and hopefully they ripen up.  Only 2 left on the tree.

[Mike T]

I gave one to a friend and we spotted flowers on his tree yesterday. 4ft high and maybe close to 5 years old it has only female flowers so far. I could have used it instead of having what appears to be a male and 2 male dominated bisex trees. I still have 2 jumbos and a standard in the ground I am waiting on but knowing my luck they will all be males..

[fruitlovers]

Good point Oscar and it may be physiologically harder for that tree to produce female flowers. Male papaya fruit are different from those from  bisex tree being seedless and having diminished taste. Maybe the flower is not a regular bisex one also. Back to Garcinias, I have been a bit frustrated that my russell and luc  have been gender bending or not producing good crops of full sized fruit. Makes me wonder if like some reptiles their environment rather than genetics is driving sex determination.

My Luc's garcinia trees have been super frustrating, producing lots of flowers, but little in the way of fruits. At first i thought it was lack of dry climate, like they have in Mexico. But now it also seems possible that they have a hard time deciding what sex they prefer to be? 

[mangaba]

This is what I see on my Lucs Garcinia and quite frequently I might add. A profusion of male flowers and the afternoon aroma is intoxicating.But a closer examination reveals more.


The occasional female flower and they are quite distinctive. This applies to many garcinias and this is what male and female flowers look like and many species including a number of Asian species like dulcis. It is easy to jump to conclusions that trees are male or female but it may take a while for the tree to show its true colours. Mine trees were always mono but just pretended to be males when they opened their accounts.



Lets look closer at male and female flowers of the Luc's Garcinia. The picture tells the story and shows what to look for in all Garcinias.

Mark:  Thus this criteria use for "Luc´s" apply to Garcinia Indica or Kokum

[Mike T]

Heya mangaba great to hear from you buddy. Yes I believe so and many Garcinias have similar flowers but in thos divergent asian ones the same pinciple applies. You can tell the males from females quite easily but not female from bisex flowers if bisex flowers truly exist. Many species are mono anyway so it isnt an issue. Bisex trees rarely if ever have perfect flowers but rather make and female flowers on the same tree by my reckoning.
While I have you let me say the lisa/recife soursop has been a powerhouse pumping out fruit like a machine. I never succeeded with growing mangabas and they would experience sudden dieback when less than 30cm. I think I know what the problem is. While my soils pH is under 6 naturally my potting mix is close to neutral and I suspect it has been the pH has been too alkali.