The Tropical Fruit Forum
Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: lavender87 on September 21, 2019, 12:53:03 PM
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Was there such a tree exited? Will this hybrid significantly decry the quality?
I know the Ichang Papeda fruit is itself a low quality citrus fruit, but yuzu has many uses in culinary field.
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Well if you think there is any quality in either the Yuzu or the Ichang Papeda, then I guess it will not lower the quality of either fruit.
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Well if you think there is any quality in either the Yuzu or the Ichang Papeda, then I guess it will not lower the quality of either fruit.
:-\? I thought yuzu is famous for its uses in many cuisines. I was thinking of seedless yuzu. I read a few posts about seedless yuzu available in Japan, but it seems to be impossible to find in the US. Some opinions also claimed that seedless yuzu in Japan is not as good as the orginal yuzu interm of fragrances. I knew there are at least several varieties of seedless Ichang Papeda in both Europe and the US, so I came up with an idea of crossing yuzu with Ichang Papeda to test my luck of finding a high quality seedless yuzu.
I am not so sure whether or not a seedless citrus mother or father would transfer his/her seedless character to off-springs.
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It is always worth a try. Many advances in citrus have been achieved by trying.
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Well if you think there is any quality in either the Yuzu or the Ichang Papeda, then I guess it will not lower the quality of either fruit.
:-\? I thought yuzu is famous for its uses in many cuisines. I was thinking of seedless yuzu. I read a few posts about seedless yuzu available in Japan, but it seems to be impossible to find in the US. Some opinions also claimed that seedless yuzu in Japan is not as good as the orginal yuzu interm of fragrances. I knew there are at least several varieties of seedless Ichang Papeda in both Europe and the US, so I came up with an idea of crossing yuzu with Ichang Papeda to test my luck of finding a high quality seedless yuzu.
I am not so sure whether or not a seedless citrus mother or father would transfer his/her seedless character to off-springs.
there is a hybrid with satsuma called Ichandarin Liudmila, it's said to taste similar to yuzu.
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there is a hybrid with satsuma called Ichandarin Liudmila, it's said to taste similar to yuzu.
Thanks, it is good to know it. Is it as hardy as yuzu? Is it seedless.
I at first just aim for the leaf taste, but then curious about seedless yuzu. I am working on it now. It might take several years, but it is fun to try.
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One technique to create a seedless citrus is by selecting for a triploid.
There's an old thread on the forums about determining ploidy in citrus.
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I am trying to do this for three years, approximately 5% of Yuzu seeds are small enough to be compatible with triploids. But these seedlings are growing rather slowly.
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I am trying to do this for three years, approximately 5% of Yuzu seeds are small enough to be compatible with triploids. But these seedlings are growing rather slowly.
Amazing, I wish you luck on your project. I think if we graft an extra rootstock to the existing slow growing yuzu seedling, it might force it to grow faster. Some types of fertilizer do help sometimes to boost growth in early stages. We can also collect scionwood after the seedling is older than 1 year old and try to graft it on a vigorously matured rootstock to boost growth.
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there is a hybrid with satsuma called Ichandarin Liudmila, it's said to taste similar to yuzu.
It might be a hybrid of ichangensis, we're not exactly sure. Its cold hardiness hasn't been tested.
There is another thread started about it, for further discussion.
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about Liudmila:
http://birds.songs.free.fr/papedas.html#liudmila (http://birds.songs.free.fr/papedas.html#liudmila)
who is "we"?
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Very funny! This site (http://birds.songs.free.fr (http://birds.songs.free.fr)) is a place where I put my dwaft version of my sites before I release them.
This version of Citrus Pages is deprecated.
The right place is now http://citruspages.free.fr (http://citruspages.free.fr)
It still not includes the genealogy that was discovered by DNA analyses. You might not use Citrus Page to define ancestry of citrus.
Next winter I shall update the site with the recent data.
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I`ve found both webadresses via google but there is nothing to be seen that one is just a draft and the other the proper one.
But good to know.
The point is that there is contradicting information on the web than the personal preferencies of Liudmilla descendence by some forum member.
Which proofs nothing other than there are different statements.
As long as there is no link to an scientific paper it is just a statement.
That is what I wanted to point out.
Btw I don`t care about descendency. It is nice to know but I can`t see any advantage in this knowledge which helps me. Might be different for others of course.
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Here's the thread that contains all the information about Liudmila I was able to compile together.
" ichangensis x Satsuma ? " http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31947.msg351168#msg351168 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31947.msg351168#msg351168)
For some reason the thread doesn't appear in a search when I type in "Liudmila", so it's probably best I share the link here.
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I don't know if this is relevant here, but I just want to let everyone know I've tasted Yuzu and Ichang papeda, both picked fresh off the tree.
The peel of both fruits is soft and moderately edible, more edible than the peel of a lemon. In my opinion, the peel of the fruits could easily be used in cooking, especially if it was cut up into small enough pieces.
Yuzu and Ichang papeda are very similar in a way, but whereas Yuzu has a much more sour orange/mandarin type of flavor, Ichang papeda is much more lemon/citron like in flavor, maybe lime and Kaffir lime nuances as well. But they both have a little bit of deep pungency to them. Yuzu also has a bit of spiciness to its pungency.
I would say Yuzu clearly has the better quality of flavor of the two, and while Ichang papeda could potentially be used for culinary uses, it is indisputably inferior to a normal lemon or lime.
Yuzu also is completely packed with seeds, whereas Ichang papeda seems to have very few to no seeds.
(The peel of Ichang papeda might be slightly softer than Yuzu, but its peel also has a slight lemon skunkiness that I would say slightly more than negates this attribute. I would say the peel is about comparable to something like a mandarinquat or calamondin)
Yuzu and Ichang papeda are believed to be closely related to each other, but it is not known for sure exactly how. Most probably, Yuzu originated from hybridization between Ichang papeda and a mandarin. They both seem to have originated from near the same area of China.
(Changsha mandarin is another one that seems to have some relation to this group, although more distant)
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Lol Charlie. Long ago I asked Gene about this citrus. He said it was nothing more than a oddity.& did not recommend it. I passed...
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Lol Charlie. Long ago I asked Gene about this citrus. He said it was nothing more than a oddity.& did not recommend it. I passed...
Laaz, you don't even like Yuzu, so clearly you wouldn't like Ichang papeda.
(You told us before you cut down your trees because you were disappointed)
I agree it's certainly true Ichang papeda is an oddity and would not be a recommended variety in zone 9, and maybe even 8b, but it is one of the few things that can grow well outside unprotected in the colder parts of zone 8 in cooler more northerly climates, or possibly even the warmest part of zone 7 in the US South.
I do believe that's what we're talking about here.
Where you are, you don't have to worry about truly cold hardy citrus.
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Seedless Kishu mandarin is pollen fertile and 50% of its seedlings are seedless. This is not from my own experience, but is from an online journal paper.
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I agree it's certainly true Ichang papeda is an oddity and would not be a recommended variety in zone 9, and maybe even 8b, but it is one of the few things that can grow well outside unprotected in the colder parts of zone 8 in cooler more northerly climates, or possibly even the warmest part of zone 7 in the US South.
My ichang papdea leaves just turn slightly yellow with loads of small yellow spots after the temperature dropped down to 37 while my yuzu seedling was still doing great. My Harvey lemon also did not show clear signs of suffering in its leaves, and its leaves were still vigorous though the tree stopped flushing with any new bud.
I brought my ichang papeda inside because I did not want to lose its flower buds. I left my yuzu seedling outside last year and it lost all it leaves but survived without any damage. I personally think that ichang padepa would be less cold tolerant than yuzu, and if this assumption is true, it surprises me.
I live in zone 8a.
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I left my yuzu seedling outside last year and it lost all it leaves but survived without any damage. I personally think that ichang padepa would be less cold tolerant than yuzu, and if this assumption is true, it surprises me.
I live in zone 8a.
Well, at least from what I've personally observed in the climate here, at least only going by how the leaves behave, it does seem like Ichang papeda is significantly less hardy than Yuzu.
This seems very surprising to me also.
I'm in zone 8a, but much farther north than you, in the Pacific Northwest (Olympia, WA), long period of cold and wet.
The leaves on the Ichang papeda all turn very pale and yellowish, with only the slightest hint of green. About half of the leaves fell off last year, and the other half eventually started slowly regaining a little bit of their color late into the year after temperatures had long since warmed up, but they never seemed to fully recover, and those leaves still looked yellowish and not the deepest shade of green, while the new leaves of that year looked better.
The Yuzu held onto all of its leaves last year, and they did seem to recover most of their color the next year. The year before that, during a very cold winter, the Yuzu may have lost about 30% of its leaves, but even then the other leaves that survived through winter later recovered.
I have not had the chance to observe bark damage on Ichang papeda yet to see if it is hardier than Yuzu in that way. Neither the Yuzu nor Ichang papeda suffered any bark damage or branch die-back this year, though the previous year the Yuzu did a little bit. (But the Ichang papeda was not in the ground yet that winter)
I have seen a big Ichang papeda tree 2 hours south of here in Portland, but it was right up against a visitor center building, and being near a big city might be preventing temperatures from going as low. And it was also planted in a spot well protected from wind. It's leaves probably looked similar to my Yuzu. But bigger trees often seem to display more cold hardiness, and it was a big tree.
The point is, I can't really say for sure that Yuzu is more cold tolerant than Ichang papeda.
I'm growing 4 Yuzu plants outside and 3 Ichang papeda, one in a container. So these are not just single plants I am talking about.
The Yuzu that were grown from seedlings growing on their own roots still appear to be doing better than my Ichang papeda.
Sorry to make this so complicated, but I am trying to give all the relevant details in case anyone wanted them.
I am thinking it might still be possible than Ichang papeda could be able to survive more absolute low temperatures, but maybe just does not do as well in cold overall.
Another possible contributing factor might be that Ichang papeda's roots might not be as tolerant to high levels of moisture during the winter, which might be making its leaves look more yellow than the temperatures alone would cause it to look. The climate here does have wet winters, whereas its native climate in China has drier winters.
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Another reason that Ichang papeda could be more desirable in crosses is that it is more "lemon-like", whereas Yuzu is a little bit more "orange-like" than Ichang papeda, in both color and flavor. Even though Yuzu overall does have slightly better flavor and fruit quality, in the case of someone trying to breed a cold hardy "lemon", Ichang papeda might help give something closer to what is being desired.
For sweeter more orange-like fruit, Yuzu may be the better one to use in crosses.
Although I have to say, my Clementine x Yuzu hybrid is not doing too great here. Definitely still technically alive, but it has not managed to put out any new leaves since the very cold winter 2 years ago. Although it has tried to send out leaf buds both years. This year it managed to put out a little bit more than 1cm of green growth on one of the buds.
For hybrids like this, it might require another backcross to get something more cold hardy. There could be useful recessive genes still in there, that just will not be able to express themselves until another generation of crossing.
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Thanks Socal for your extremely detailed description. It is very helpful and enjoyable.
I just thought of a reason explaining why the ichang papeda displayed more leaf damage than the yuzu did. Perhaps ichang papeda responds better to cold weather than yuzu, so it went through some internal chemical changes to signal the leaves to turn yellow and probably prepared for falling off to conserve energy. A good example of this is Poncirus Trifoliata which will drop all its leaves at a temperature below 50F. If this hypothesis is true then ichange papdea is absolutely more cold tolerant than yuzu. We might need more observation to come to a final conclusion.
I am guessing that a citrus variety which has leaves most sensitive to cold weather could be least suffered bark damage.
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I just thought of a reason explaining why the ichang papeda displayed more leaf damage than the yuzu did. Perhaps ichang papeda responds better to cold weather than yuzu, so it went through some internal chemical changes to signal the leaves to turn yellow and probably prepared for falling off to conserve energy. A good example of this is Poncirus Trifoliata which will drop all its leaves at a temperature below 50F. If this hypothesis is true then ichange papdea is absolutely more cold tolerant than yuzu.
This thought had occurred to me as well, as a possibility. However, I noticed that the color of the branches looks similar to the color of the leaves.
I also noticed that the small Ichang papeda plants did not seem to handle temperature changes well, between day and night. What I mean is that the Ichang papeda started putting on new leaf growth at the same time as Yuzu, and initially the leaves looked a very dark healthy color, but eventually as the leaves grew to full size they started appearing a little bit more of a paler color. Still functional but did not look as healthy as Yuzu.
Keep in mind they didn't really begin putting out leaf growth until the start of June, so this (leaf yellowing) might have been around June 25 to June 30. We can still get fairly cold nights in late June (not freezing of course), and I think the citrus may not respond well to the big temperature swings between night and day. Consistently warm nights don't really begin until July here.
(Interestingly the winter mostly doesn't have as big temperature fluctuations between night and day, because it is so wet at that time in this climate)
It could of course be that Ichang papeda grows better in some other climate further south. I don't know. (I'm at 47 degrees latitude here, so the temperatures for most of the year are much cooler)
As I have said before, there was an anecdotal report of a lemon tree (presumably Ichang papeda but I cannot be sure, they did post a picture of a bowl of the fruit though and said it was edible), doing very well and bountifully fruiting in inland North Carolina on the border between zone 8a and 7b.
Maybe they just need a longer period of heat to be able to put on some growth, because I've noticed Ichang papeda is much more of a slower grower and less vigorous growing than Yuzu (though not a weaker grower, you can tell the plant has plenty enough energy, it just does not want to grow very fast).
One last possibility I considered is it could be possible the roots of Ichang papeda just more easily go into dormancy, and that this climate is just not cold enough to force Poncirus trifoliata and some of its hybrids into a similar state of dormancy. (My poncirus hybrids do not seem to loose their leaves over the winter in this climate, even though poncirus is supposed to be deciduous). Maybe someone growing Poncirus trifoliata in a climate like zone 6 could tell us if the smaller branches start becoming very pale and yellowish by February.
The roots going into dormancy would stop the flow of iron and result in a temporary nutrient deficiency that would turn the plant more of a yellow color. I see this in my hardy gardenias, and they are later able to recover their color just fine.
I know this is all complicated and there are many different thoughts, and different possibilities here.
I think the only way to be sure is to continue to grow them for several years, and to see how they grow, and watch for any bark damage following particularly cold winters.
And to get reports from people growing Ichang papeda in different climates.
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Thank Socal2warm for sharing your experience in a very detailed manner.
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Will this hybrid significantly decry the quality?
I know the Ichang Papeda fruit is itself a low quality citrus fruit, but yuzu has many uses in culinary field.
Well, I would maybe put it to you this way: Yuzu fruit isn't that high quality, and Ichang papeda isn't too low quality.
Let's imagine hypothetically that the only citrus in existence was Ichang papeda, and let's say you were wondering whether people would buy it if it was sold at the market. I personally believe about half the population in society would buy them, and half the population wouldn't, thinking they were not worth the trouble. Hopefully maybe that gives you some idea of their level of eating quality.
It would of course not be a fruit for eating out of hand. (Just as most people do not eat lemons like they would an orange)
In at least some ways Yuzu and Ichang papeda are actually very similar. They are closely related to each other, after all.
I don't think crossing them would reduce the fruit quality all that much, although there would be some noticeable reduction in fruit quality.
The peel of Ichang papeda is actually very slightly more soft and edible than Yuzu, although the difference is not really all that much. Although the peel of Ichang papeda is also very slightly skunkier with slightly worse flavor. Yuzu do not really have the most juice, but Ichang papeda has an even lesser amount of juice. I would definitely say the difference in this is not big, only moderate.
Let's also remember there are a few people who think that even Yuzu is a "worthless" fruit, so I think much of this here may be the subject of personal preference and human opinion.
Maybe I would say that the quality of Yuzu is very slightly better than so-so and the quality of Ichang papeda is very slightly worse than so-so (mediocre).
Yuzu certainly has plenty of great culinary uses, and I believe Ichang papeda could find culinary uses if you really wanted, but it would be a little bit forced and not optimal.
The quality of Ichang papeda is not terrible at all, it's just not all that great either.
I am actually snacking on an Ichang papeda right now that I had kept in the refrigerator, as I write this. (I promise I am not making that up) So my description here is not just from memory.
It almost does taste very peculiarly Yuzu-like, in a way. I mean I taste a certain, very slight skunky, deep pungentness in the peel.
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You read it everywhere that Yuzu is a hybrid of Ichang Papeda. But genetic studies are not in favor of that constantly repeated supposition. I have an article in mind that demonstrated that Yuzu is not directly related to C. ichangensis but to an unknown Papeda that does probably not exist any more, which is at least not known today to any citrus expert. I try to remember the article. It was not on Yuzu but on the genetic relationship of Citrus in general. Perhaps I remember. Then I can post it here.
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Here it is: link (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969)
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You read it everywhere that Yuzu is a hybrid of Ichang Papeda. But genetic studies are not in favor of that constantly repeated supposition.
It is not known for certain how Yuzu originated, but genetic studies do confirm that Yuzu is closely related to Ichang papeda; it is just not known with certainty exactly how.
It's not even really known/agreed whether Yuzu should constitute its own species or came about as the result of hybridization.
There are some records from ancient times of citrus grown fairly far north near the Yangtze river, where citrus does not normally grow, but due to the ambiguities in the Chinese language, we cannot be sure exactly what type of modern variety those fruits would correlate to. They might not have had separate words for the two.
One possibility, sometimes separate species can evolve with genetic introgression from another species. This basically means there's a genetic pool of many separate individuals, and gradually over time, genes from an outside species enter into that gene pool, through many separate individual hybridization events, over many generations.
I don't want to get too much into this topic here, however.
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Thank you, Ilya. For those who do not want to read too much, just look for the headline "Origins of C. ichangensis and other acid citrus varieties" in the article. Interesting also what it states about Ichang Lemon.
If someone wants to create new hybrids the exact genetic relationships of different species can often be ignored when you just look at the results of antient hybridization events and take them as they are. I think, however, that such a practical and somewhat superficial approach should keep us away from too much speculation. The motto "just try!" is good, often perhaps the only think we can do. But we should then not be disappointed when we don't get what we wanted if our plans and wishes were based on wrong assumptions about the nature of the parent species we used.
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I am content to regard Yuzu as most likely having arisen from hybridization between Ichang papeda and sour mandarin or mandarin, probably not from a single hybridization event.
There may have been a cross between the two, and after that the offspring got propagated from seed, so there was further genetic mix-up.
In the initial cross, Ichang papeda probably would have been the female parent. The genetic marker studies show that Yuzu shares a much closer affinity to Ichang papeda than to mandarin.
"Sour mandarin" may be a sub-species of mandarin, kind of like a wild mandarin type, originally native to China.
Or it may be possible "sour mandarin" actually came from the regular species of mandarin but just with a little bit of Ichang papeda-type genes mixed in.
(If you look at the Hybrid Origins of Citrus Varieties Inferred from DNA Marker Analysis of Nuclear and Organelle Genomes, Tokurou Shimizu, article, Citrus sunki seems to stand out as the only near pure mandarin with some additional few genes like C. ichangensis or C. medica, probably the former)
If that is the case, then it may be of little meaning whether the ancestry came from sour mandarin or mandarin. And it is also of course a possibility sour mandarin may have ultimately arisen from Yuzu, rather than the other way around. Or even no direct parental relationship.
None of this is fact, it is informed speculation, an attempt to try to fit together the pieces.
We don't know if this hybridization resulted naturally, or came about as a result of human activity.
I will quote a source here:
" Swingle and Reece (1967) noted that: […] hybrids that show astonishing similarity to the Yuzu have now been produced in this country between the Ichang papeda and the satsuma orange (a form of C. reticulata ). "
https://idtools.org/id/citrus/citrusid/factsheet.php?name=Yuzu
Which lends some support to the hybridization theory.
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I don't understand it. Once again, it looks like Yuzu is recovering better and more vigorously than Ichang papeda. I have two Ichang papeda plants and several Yuzu, both on rootstock and on their own roots, planted in ground, and the Yuzu are all beginning to leaf out right now, while the Ichang papeda have no new leaf buds and look rather pale and very yellow-greenish in hue, both the leaves and stems. This seems to be an indicator to me that Ichang papeda, or at least this ascension of Ichang papeda, is not as cold resistant here, although I can't really say that for sure, since this is not talking about actual survival.
This is in the Pacific Northwest climate, zone 8a.
I don't understand why Yuzu seems to be doing so much better here than Ichang papeda. All the sources say that Ichang papeda is supposed to be more hardy. (And yes, I am aware what the distinctive shape looks like of the leaves of Ichang papeda. This is Ichang papeda)
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My seedlings from ichang papeda fruits have not proven to be as hardy as trifoliate hybrids. I thought that it was supposed to be hardy to 0 degrees according to Tom McClendon’s Hardy Citrus for the Southeast book. I had a really warm winter this year with temps getting above freezing every day and I lost two more three year old seedlings and one suffered minor damage with only being protected by plastic sheeting cover a few nights this winter. I’m done trying to grow papeda here. I have one yuzu but it will be protected like a satsuma here when I plant it in ground. I lost a seedling yuzu years ago when I tried protecting with only frost cloth.
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My seedlings from ichang papeda fruits have not proven to be as hardy as trifoliate hybrids. I thought that it was supposed to be hardy to 0 degrees according to Tom McClendon’s Hardy Citrus for the Southeast book. I had a really warm winter this year with temps getting above freezing every day and I lost two more three year old seedlings and one suffered minor damage with only being protected by plastic sheeting cover a few nights this winter. I’m done trying to grow papeda here. I have one yuzu but it will be protected like a satsuma here when I plant it in ground. I lost a seedling yuzu years ago when I tried protecting with only frost cloth.
Funny you should say that. I know several people in Germany and Austria who say that their seedlings are more coldhardy than their plants that are grafted on Poncirus (and also hardier than Poncirus hybrids). I guess it depends on so many factors..
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Funny you should say that. I know several people in Germany and Austria who say that their seedlings are more coldhardy than their plants that are grafted on Poncirus (and also hardier than Poncirus hybrids). I guess it depends on so many factors..
Partially agree with you, my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret , its hardiness depends on more factors than that of poncirus. But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.
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my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret ... But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.
Just to point out, there is one picture of a C. ichangensis in Germany zone 8a here:
"Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland"
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=30863.0
But it does seem to be in the middle of a residential suburban neighborhood, which may be having an effect on temperatures.
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my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret ... But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.
Just to point out, there is one picture of a C. ichangensis in Germany zone 8a here:
"Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland"
https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=30863.0
But it does seem to be in the middle of a residential suburban neighborhood, which may be having an effect on temperatures.
I know the guy and it is a seed-grown plant. It is by far the best ichangensis I have ever tasted (he sent me some fruit last year). They are early-ripening, seedless and easy to peel. Also, he says the plant is very coldhardy.
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Funny you should say that. I know several people in Germany and Austria who say that their seedlings are more coldhardy than their plants that are grafted on Poncirus (and also hardier than Poncirus hybrids). I guess it depends on so many factors..
Partially agree with you, my experience with C.ichangensis is very difficult to interpret , its hardiness depends on more factors than that of poncirus. But up to now I have not seen any photos of mature pure ichangensis that survived long term in the Northern part of Europe.
Ilya.
I am really bad at posting pictures but believe me, I have a seedling of Ichangensis IVIA in my garden that now is in ground for round ten years. Is is 150cm high and was never protected and was never damaged from cold. Is is deeply green an looks much healthier than my poncirus which does not like the soil. It seems to be much more resistant to limestone than PT. (https://i.postimg.cc/t1w3vmsQ/20210220-113605.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t1w3vmsQ)
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A very nice plant Robert. Does it give already the fruits?
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Not this plant but its sibling. I have a second plant in pot it started blooming four years ago.
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@Zitrusgaertner Bernhard Voss has an Ichang Papeda at a similiar size of yours. And hardy since years.
Where did you get your plant from?
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I am really bad at posting pictures but believe me, I have a seedling of Ichangensis IVIA in my garden that now is in ground for round ten years. Is is 150cm high and was never protected and was never damaged from cold. Is is deeply green an looks much healthier than my poncirus which does not like the soil. It seems to be much more resistant to limestone than PT.
You say you are in Vienna, zone 7b.
Do you think you might be in a part of the city that is actually more like 8a ?
Thank you for sharing the picture and information about your Ichang papeda growing there.
I wonder why my Ichang papedas don't appear to be looking as hardy. Maybe what I have is a different cultivar of Ichang papeda that is not as hardy? Maybe something about the climate here, with its wet winters and lack of heat in the early part of the year?
One additional piece of evidence that points to Yuzu being more likely to be a hybrid is that it is always full of many seeds, and most of those seeds are nucellar, whereas Ichang papeda often seems to have almost no seeds, presumably due to not being pollinated by a different variety, and I think the seeds in Ichang papeda are zygotic.
Typically hybridization (between different species) often results in that sort of situation.
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@Zitrusgaertner Bernhard Voss has an Ichang Papeda at a similiar size of yours. And hardy since years.
Where did you get your plant from?
The seeds came from Bernhard Voss, as far as I can remember. He told me that IVIA would not be very hardy. I kept the young seedlings in the open ground for 3 years. Together with a craftet "very hardy" ichangensis that came from Bernhard. In the first winter the "hardy" C. ichangensis (he tagged it 5*) died and all IVIA seedlings and a few seedlings of another cultivar survived with some damage from winter sun and frost. After three years one or two plants bloomed. I had to repot these plants and some time later planted one of them in ground again and kept another in a container. The latter one bloomed after three or four years. Typival IVIA-fruit. I have a crafted IVIA fom ADAVO aswell. The one from ADAVO had a lot of seeds the fruits of my seedling none.
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I am really bad at posting pictures but believe me, I have a seedling of Ichangensis IVIA in my garden that now is in ground for round ten years. Is is 150cm high and was never protected and was never damaged from cold. Is is deeply green an looks much healthier than my poncirus which does not like the soil. It seems to be much more resistant to limestone than PT.
You say you are in Vienna, zone 7b.
Do you think you might be in a part of the city that is actually more like 8a ?
Thank you for sharing the picture and information about your Ichang papeda growing there.
I wonder why my Ichang papedas don't appear to be looking as hardy. Maybe what I have is a different cultivar of Ichang papeda that is not as hardy? Maybe something about the climate here, with its wet winters and lack of heat in the early part of the year?
One additional piece of evidence that points to Yuzu being more likely to be a hybrid is that it is always full of many seeds, and most of those seeds are nucellar, whereas Ichang papeda often seems to have almost no seeds, presumably due to not being pollinated by a different variety, and I think the seeds in Ichang papeda are zygotic.
Typically hybridization (between different species) often results in that sort of situation.
My part of Vienna (north of river Danube) is hot and dry. Zone 8a at least. Tmin in the last 5 years -10°C The point is sun protection on clear winter days. Ichangensis is in a shady place. Therefore it does better than Citrumelo. All my outdoor-plants had to take -14° six years ago. Ichangensis lost 2/3 of its leaves but no branches as far as I remember. Citrumelo had severe bark-cracks and die-back of 1/3 of its branches. US812 was not very impressed and showed only minor loss of little twigs. Prag was not harmed at all. So C. ichangensis IVIA (F2) is one of my most hardy citrus in open ground. And it is on its own roots. I will test it as rootstock for Yuzu.