Author Topic: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown  (Read 66167 times)

Mango_Seed

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #200 on: August 06, 2019, 06:08:56 PM »
There are several links to information on the internet about polyembryonic mangos in the "Seed Balls" section of this forum http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31596.0

For example all the mangos in this rootstock list are poly except Glenn:

https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/43/6/article-p1720.xml

Poly article:

http://www.krishisewa.com/articles/seed-production/640-polyembryony.html



The following info was copied from a spread sheet on poly mangos lists name & country of orgin.
sp=some poly

13-1 Israel
p
Israel
Gow
p
Thailand
Nam Tan Teen
p
Thailand
A
p
Indonesia
Guadalupe
p
Peru
Nang Klarngwun
p
Thailand
Ambalayi
p
Sri Lanka
Gudang
p
Indonesia
Ngowe
p
Africa
Ampalam
p
Indonesia
Gullivers Triumph
p
Australia
Nixon's Special
p
Australia
Apple2
p
Kenya
Gundu
p
India
Number11
p
West Indies
Arumanis
p
Malaysia
Harumanis
p
Indonesia
Nuwun Chan
p
Thailand
B.O.T.
p
Australia
Harumanis Red
p
Indon/Malays
Ok Rong
p
Thailand
Bali Apple
p
Australia
Hindi-Khasa
p
Egypt
Olour
p
India
Banana-1
p
Australia
Hong Sa
P
 
Ono
p
USA
Bappakkai
p
 
Indian-17
p
 
Orange
p
USA
Baramasia
p
India
Indochinese
p
 
Pahutan
p
Philippines
Batawi
p
Kenya
Indochinese Late
p
 
Peach CG
p
Australia
Binoboy
p
Philippines
Ingham Late
p
Australia
Philippine
p
Mexico
Black Java
p
Australia
Jakarta
p
 
Pico
p
Philippines
Boribo
p
Kenya
Joellen
p
 
Pineapple
p
 
Bourbon
p
Brazil/Paragu
Kamerunga White
p
Australia
Rajah
p
 
Bowen Early
p
Australia
Kasturi
p
Indonesia
Reasoner
p
 
Brander
p
 
Kensington Bmboo
p
Australia
Roberts-3
p
Australia
Bullocks Heart
p
Australia
Kensington Pride
p
Australia
Rockdale Saigon
p
Indochina
Bundaberg Late
p
Australia
Kensington Rajah
p
Australia
Rosado de Ica
p
Peru
Cambodiana
p
Vietnam, 2ndry USA
Kensington Red
p
Australia
Rupee
p
Sri Lanka
Carabao 1
p
Philippines
Kensington Spooner
p
Australia Q
Sabre
p
South Africa
Carabao Chun Tie
p
Philippines
Keow Savoey
p
Thailand
Samini
p
USA
Carabao Harbon
p
Philippines
Kopu Reva
p
Tahiti
Sampee
p
Thailand
Carabao Lamao
p
Philippines
Kuala Selangor
p
Malaysia
Santaella
p
Puerto Rico
Carabao Pepe Gomez
p
Philippines
Kurashige
p
 
Senora
p
Philippines
Carabao Super Manila
p
Philippines
Kuru
p
Sri Lanka
Simmonds
p
USA
Carabao Timoeto Llena
p
Philippines
Laris
p
USA
Simpang Empat
p
Malaysia
Carne de Ica
p
Peru
Lebai Mohamad
p
Malaysia
Sings Late
pm?
India
Cathamia
p
India
MA 173
p
India
Spychala
p
Australia
Cecil
p
 
MA 2
p
Malaysia
Sri Lanka
p
India
Ceriese
p
South Africa
MA 3
p
Malaysia
Sungi Siput
p
Malaysia
Chandrakaran
p
India
Ma Muang Paa
p
Thailand
Taimour
p
Egypt
Chato de Ica
p
Peru
Madame Francis
p
Haiti
Tango
m?
Israel
Cheteau
p
India
Madu
p
Indonesia
Tekin
p
Australia
Chino
p
Cuba
Mag-B
p
Australia
Thomas
p
Australia
Coconut
p
Sri Lanka
Maha 165
p
Malaysia
Tok Boon
p
Malaysia
Colombo Black
p
India
Mammee
p
 
Torbet
p
USA
Coracao De Boi
p
Brazil
Manzano
p
Virgin Islds
TPP 1
p
Australia
Crimson Blush
p
Australia
Marr
p
Australia, WA
Trusso
p
Australia
Doubikin
p
West Africa, Kelmscott
Mekong
p
USA
Turpentine
p
Caribbean & Sth Amer
Dunlop
p
Malaysia
Mempelam Siam
p
Thailand
Tutehau
p
 
Ewais
p
Egypt
Micongensis
p
Vietnam
Wester
p
USA
Fa Lal
p
Thailand
Millaroo 16
p
 
Xoài   Buoi
p
Vietnam
Fa Lan
p
Thailand
Millaroo 6
p
Australia
Xoài  Cat Hoa Loc
p
Vietnam
Fa Lan 97
p
Thailand
Mooyandun
p
 
Xoài  Thanh Ca
p
Vietnam
Fairchild
p
Panama
Mullumbimby Gold
p
 
Xoài  Túóng
p
Vietnam
Florigon
p
USA
Mun
p
Thailand
Xoài Cat Chu
p
Vietnam
Fred Roos
p
Australia
Mundappa
p
India
Xoài Cat Thom
p
Vietnam
G Allen
msp
Australia
Mylepania
p
India
 
 
 
Goldsworthy
p
Australia
Nam Doc Mai
p
Thailand
 
 
*m=mono
Golek
p
??
Nam Doc Mai 4
p
Thailand
 
 
p=poly
Golek 2
p
Malays/Indon
Nam Doc Mai Gold
p
Thailand
 
 
sp=some poly
 

Oolie

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #201 on: August 06, 2019, 06:53:01 PM »
I'm pretty sure this thread was specifically about the newer Zill releases.

Oolie

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #202 on: September 18, 2019, 05:44:55 PM »
So I have poured over the literature trying to determine the correct parentage for E4 and Gary.

From what I have found, it appears that there are two genes for the embryony of a mango, and the poly is dominant.
No organisms have been identified with homozygous poly genes.

So that means you can have Heterozygous Poly, or Homozygous Mono.

If you cross two poly parents, of four offspring, 3 will be poly, 1 will be mono.
If you have two mono parents, all offspring will be mono.
If you have one mono parent, and one poly parent, half of the offspring will be mono, and half will be poly.

Anyone else confused?

Pettigrew if it is the correct pollen parent of Gary and E4 must be Poly correct? Maybe there's more going on.

Guanabanus

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #203 on: September 18, 2019, 08:07:16 PM »
Very interesting!
Har

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #204 on: September 18, 2019, 08:08:48 PM »
Are you sure it can’t be a multi allelic trait? The whole thing regarding polyembrony can be more complex than a simple dominant/recessive trait. I believe the genes are on multiple different alleles and the more of these genes you can get, the better the chance of getting a Polyembryonic mango seed.

For some varieties that are almost always Polyembryonic, it may be a simple dominant/recessive trait. Other varieties may have been selected for so long that the alleles are set and act like dominant/recessive traits.

This is similar to how crown tail bettas used to be extremely difficult to breed because the crow tail trait was on multiple alleles and you needed multiple copies of specific genes in order to get a certain percentage of crown tail babies.

The crown tails now a days are so strongly set in their crowntail trait that all you need to do is cross a crown tail male with a crowntail female and you’re pretty much guaranteed to get a certain percentage of crowntail babies. This was not true before the genes were set through inbreeding, line breeding and out crossing in order to get healthy babies.

Simon

Oolie

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #205 on: September 18, 2019, 08:17:21 PM »
No Simon, at the moment I'm not sure of anything.

That said I am attempting to get to the bottom of this. The literature suggests that polyembryonism is a single allele dominant trait.

Which is what has led to this level of confusion, I don't have anything to counter the literature other than Gary Zill's strong beliefs as to the genes he's promoting, which to me is not enough to go off of when it contradicts the published literature.

He may be correct though, I can't dispute that, and your inference may be correct as well. But if that is the case, than the literature is incorrect, at least it is failing to acknowledge and important factor in the creation of polyembryonic offspring.

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #206 on: September 19, 2019, 01:10:50 AM »
i planted venus and e4 this season because they taste so good, not sure if ploy or mono, but i can share pics if needed
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Oolie

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #207 on: September 19, 2019, 02:11:35 AM »
i planted venus and e4 this season because they taste so good, not sure if ploy or mono, but i can share pics if needed

E4 is already confirmed to be poly, all reports on Venus so far are mono.

CA Hockey

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #208 on: September 20, 2019, 01:27:19 AM »
I had 6 e4s last year and 4 this year. Iirc, each seed put out only a solitary sprout. I took a closer look this year, and the e4 seed is tiny, almost negligible, but still puts out a sprout - just 1 though.

Oolie

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #209 on: September 20, 2019, 01:58:39 AM »
I had 6 e4s last year and 4 this year. Iirc, each seed put out only a solitary sprout. I took a closer look this year, and the e4 seed is tiny, almost negligible, but still puts out a sprout - just 1 though.

Polyembryonic trees can put out monoembryonic or polyembryonic seeds, but Monoembryonic trees can only put out monoembryonic seeds but not polyembryonic ones.

This is all assuming the literature has described the possibilities adequately, there is room for error in what has been written.

Oolie

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #210 on: April 18, 2020, 10:26:45 PM »
Anyone inspected the seed from Pineapple Pleasure? I found some reports that the seeds were mono, I'm just looking for more people to confirm.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 10:32:25 PM by Oolie »

Squam256

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #211 on: April 18, 2020, 10:37:09 PM »
Anyone inspected the seed from Pineapple Pleasure? I found some reports that the seeds were mono, I'm just looking for more people to confirm.

It’s monoembryonic.

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #212 on: April 19, 2020, 01:47:59 PM »
The Pineapple Pleasures I’ve had were also Mono embryonic.

The E4s I’ve had were Polyembryonic if I recall correctly. I thought I posted pictures somewhere on this forum.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #213 on: June 17, 2020, 12:32:26 PM »
Venus is mono. I had a mature tree and planted 3 seasons worth of seedlings....all one sprout each seed.
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gozp

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #214 on: June 17, 2020, 02:08:11 PM »
Venus is mono. I had a mature tree and planted 3 seasons worth of seedlings....all one sprout each seed.

I currently planted a venus seedling turned out to be poly seed.

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #215 on: June 17, 2020, 02:15:22 PM »
Are you sure it’s Venus? If yes, are you sure it isn’t just multiple sprouts from the same  root?

Oftentimes, Monoembryonic seedlings will sprout out multiple shoots from the same root but this does not make it Polyembryonic. This often happens when the original sprout gets injured.

You may want to check out the roots if you can do it without harming your seedlings.

If each sprout has its own root, then I don’t know what to think. All the Venus I’ve had were Monoembryonic.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #216 on: June 17, 2020, 02:47:38 PM »
Are you sure it’s Venus? If yes, are you sure it isn’t just multiple sprouts from the same  root?

Oftentimes, Monoembryonic seedlings will sprout out multiple shoots from the same root but this does not make it Polyembryonic. This often happens when the original sprout gets injured.

You may want to check out the roots if you can do it without harming your seedlings.

If each sprout has its own root, then I don’t know what to think. All the Venus I’ve had were Monoembryonic.

Simon

Simon 100% correct on this... best way to tell if mango is mono or poly is usually pretty obvious when you dehusk seed before planting. I haven’t been following this thread but if it hasn’t already been stated cotton candy is polyembryonic...recently dehusked and planted a few.

Joe

Future

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #217 on: August 31, 2020, 06:37:44 PM »
I found a Phoenix seed that appears to be poly.

I got one more this year with multiple sprouts.  Anyone else seeing this with Phoenix?

roblack

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #218 on: August 31, 2020, 07:03:42 PM »
forgive me if I missed this:

Does anyone know if Ceci Love is mono or poly?

Future

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #219 on: September 01, 2020, 05:17:11 PM »
forgive me if I missed this:

Does anyone know if Ceci Love is mono or poly?

Mono

TheGivingTree

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #220 on: September 01, 2020, 07:37:35 PM »
I have a 20+ yr old tree in my backyard that was here when I moved in. The closest I can compare it to is a Haden mango but could surely be an unnamed seedling. Of the seeds that sprout they are 90% mono, 10% poly. If mono trees don't have poly seeds, does that mean a poly tree can give 90% mono seeds?

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #221 on: June 27, 2021, 06:19:18 PM »
Someone recently reported that their Kathy(K3/Kryptonite) had a poly seed. Can anyone confirm if Kathy is mono or poly?

I found that one of my Butter Cream seeds was mono but a different Butter cream had what appeared to be a Polyembryonic seed. Here’s a picture of what appears to be a Polyembryonic Butter Cream seed.




Simon

MangoMikeFl

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #222 on: July 29, 2021, 12:39:29 PM »
Does anyone know for sure if Orange Essence is mono or poly.

cassowary

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #223 on: July 29, 2021, 10:41:35 PM »
Polyembryonic mangifera indica seeds produces nucellar clones, they are not a zygotic offspring.
Australian research papper suggest to leave only the most vigorous shoot and cut the others out.


If you hsve plenty of time and space and want to pkant seeds for experiments or just for shits and giggles,  then great but otherwise why are people planting seeds?  With the time, effort  and aforementioned space, just buy grafted trees.  They are available and while they may cost more for some, it will still save monetarily in the long run.

I don't get it ether unless somebody plants hundreds of seeds.
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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #224 on: July 30, 2021, 01:03:02 AM »
 ;D ;D