Author Topic: Apples in hot, humid climates  (Read 1092 times)

TonyinCC

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Trying to enjoy home grown fruit 12 months a year
    • Cape Coral,FL
    • View Profile
Apples in hot, humid climates
« on: June 22, 2021, 07:51:24 AM »
There was a recent post on apples in Florida, I figured the topic deserves its own thread for those in similar climates. I do not think the Dorsett Golden and Anna are any good.
I grew apples for nearly 20 years on the coastal Plain of South Carolina. Lots of heat, humidity and fungal pressure, actually worse than my present location in Cape Coral.
 Summers there were sweltering with little air movement. Hard to think of a more hostile place to grow apples.
 I spent a couple years researching any and all apple varieties known to tolerate heat and humidity. I tried to grow well over 100 varieties, fruiting about 25 or so more than once. Dorsett Golden and Anna were both garbage, the fruit could not take the heat and humidity. Most apple trees themselves grew fine but not the fruit. I found that tolerance to heat, humidity, and fungal rots were much more important than chill hours. In the nearly 20 years I was there, chill hours ranged from about 450 to 850 at my farm in St. George, SC. On the plus side, the only insect pest was the plum curculio which only caused cosmetic damage.
 Apples can be grown at altitude in the tropics if they are defoliated with urea after cropping, that stimulates bloom. I attended a lecture at a fruit growers meeting in one of the Gulf coast states given by someone growing them.(red delicious) He grew them in the South Pacific at 5000-7000 feet of altitude not far from the equator. That is not a low chill cultivar and is the apple equivalent of a Tommy Atkins mango.
 I found that lack of chill extends bloom periods. This means drought followed by rain can stimulate bloom. Sometimes a period of cooler weather during the Summer/Fall can also do this. Mangos can sometimes throw a few off season bloom too, this is not unique to apples.  Some apples bloomed several times a year. You might never get a full bloom if chill is insufficient, but you will still probably get some fruit. One variety, Carolina Red June, even sometimes matured 2 crops in a year.( fruit was small, mediocre and mealy, don't plant it.)   
Extended and inconsistent bloom is bad for commercial growers on spray schedules, but not an issue for home growers.  Most of the low chill varieties I tried never completely defoliated in Winter unless we had a really hard freeze below about 15 degrees F.
Aside from fungal rots, internal breakdown is a major problem for most apples ripening in hot weather. Several varieties fruited fairly well but had mealy texture. William's Pride had bad breakdown. The only mealy apple that tasted pretty good despite the texture was Arkcharm. The only mealy apples I ever actually enjoyed eating.
The other problems on varieties that can fruit in hot climates are bitter pit and watercore. If you ever ate a bitter but otherwise beautiful Braeburn apple, it had bitter pit.
Water core is actually a treat for home grower. It is actually clear circular areas of flesh up to about quarter size that are SUPER sweet, brix off the charts. It shortens shelf life a lot, so that pretty much eliminates many varieties from large scale commercial consideration.
I grew the best Gala apples ever for a year or two but that variety needs CONSTANT spraying or the fruit will rot.  Even then, I lost a lot. I gave up on it, be warned... That variety ticks off all the boxes except for its extreme susceptibility to rotting. Would probably grow great in a desert, it can take triple digits while ripening without breakdown. Water core, yes, but fruit was not mealy.
Pink Lady is one of my favorite apples to eat and the only one I actually buy at the stores. It was nearly a perfect tree and was low chill but rarely held more than a few fruit to maturity despite plenty of pollen. The few fruit that were held, never sized well. It ticked off almost all of the boxes except for productivity. Fuji was unproductive as well as susceptible to rot and bitter pit.
One surprise was Bramley's seedling. It was one of the heathiest trees. Great Britain's best cooking apple, but very acidic and not eaten out of hand there. When I grew it, it had a nearly perfect sugar-acid balance. I bet the brix was close to 20. It was intensely sweet and subacid. An Englishman would probably drop dead of shock eating one like that. I am sure it never ever attained that level of quality in the British Isles. I do wonder how it would perform in Australia if anyone can chime in on that. The tree itself is triploid and seemed immune to fungal problems. Fruit needed minimal spraying since it was late maturity. My goat herd killed that tree when they got into the orchard so I only fruited it twice.
Pristine was also a big surprise. Small, Golden Delicious type. Extended bloom period and very disease resistant. At my farm it started ripening July 4th and season was over a month long. One year it reached 100 degrees F at my farm almost every day for the entire ripening period.  A very nice apple, there was some watercore but the fruit was crisp despite the extreme temperatures. Sometimes had partial bloom later in Summer but did not mature 2 crops.
One benefit of high temperatures in apples that can ripen fruit without breakdown is that brix can be off the charts. Most commercial apples are lucky to hit the mid teens, but a lot of apples I grew were over 20 most years.
For a large Golden type, I would recommend trying Ozark Gold. Eating a huge one with water core was a real treat. I tried a bunch of California apples, none of them really did well.
One class of apples that did well are Russets. American Golden Russet did the least well of that class but was still a high quality fruit.  Any of them are worth a trial. Hudson's Golden Gem and Brown Russet were very nice and were August to early September apples at that location.
 I tried a bunch of Japanese varieties, most took the heat but had high susceptibility to rots. You might not be able to grow apples as a commodity in a subtropical/ tropical climate, but if you are determined and pick the right varieties, you can probably grow some of your own apples. I had planned a pick your own/roadside market and would have been successful if the black bears would have gone away. They were protected and the wildlife people did not designate a bear as a problem for relocation or removal unless it was out and about causing trouble during the daytime. Even one bear can do a lot of damage.
 I would try to root a very disease resistant variety in a stooling bed to use as rootstock if I were to start over.

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9012
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: Apples in hot, humid climates
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2021, 08:01:19 AM »
Depends on how you define hot humid climates. Perhaps Af and Am on the Koppen classification. People here have tried to fruit Dorsett Gold forever or even longer and there is more chance of the Martians landing. But just a little over 1000 short miles away near the state Capital Brisbane, the fruit habg on but are sub standard.

Francis_Eric

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
    • 40 miles west of Chicago Aurora IL ZONE 5
    • View Profile
    • https://myspace.com/undisclosedforthetime/
Re: Apples in hot, humid climates
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2021, 08:47:16 AM »
There was a recent post on apples in Florida, I figured the topic deserves its own thread for those in similar climates. I do not think the Dorsett Golden and Anna are any good.
I grew apples for nearly 20 years on the coastal Plain of South Carolina. Lots of heat, humidity and fungal pressure, actually worse than my present location in Cape Coral.
 Summers there were sweltering with little air movement. Hard to think of a more hostile place to grow apples.
 I spent a couple years researching any and all apple varieties known to tolerate heat and humidity. I tried to grow well over 100 varieties, fruiting about 25 or so more than once. Dorsett Golden and Anna were both garbage, the fruit could not take the heat and humidity. Most apple trees themselves grew fine but not the fruit. I found that tolerance to heat, humidity, and fungal rots were much more important than chill hours. In the nearly 20 years I was there, chill hours ranged from about 450 to 850 at my farm in St. George, SC.
100 types
I  see Arkcharm is a seedling of a Limbertwig did you ever grow other  Limbertwig (types)?
I would not mind growing apple's in New Orleans one day or for my friends ,
 and that is the only southern apple " groupings type" I remember. (that and Arkansas Black apple)

What would of graft to Mayhaw ?
I thought southern crab Malus angustifolia  but I suppose it is endangered , and hard to find.

I know the rose family or apple crosses a lot of times with other species
 (apple with sorbus or mountain ash/rowen berry (europs name of it)
 I wonder what would be good to cross it with down south)? Mayhaw?

(random link so everyone doesn't have to look up limbertwig

Quote
e describe Limbertwigs as the “quintessential” Southern Appalachian apple. With just a few exceptions, most Limbertwig apples originated within an area encompassing northwestern North Carolina, eastern Tennessee, southwestern Virginia and southeastern Kentucky. There are more than 50 different strains of Limbertwig which have been described from this regional birthplace.

Quote
A notable trait of Limbertwig trees is the characteristic weeping growth habit, a physical feature created by the thin, “limber” twigs and branches which becomes more pronounced late in the season when the tree hangs heavy with ripening fruit. The weeping growth is not common to all known Limbertwig varieties, so you cannot use that feature to identify a Limbertwig. To confirm whether an unknown apple is a true Limbertwig, you have to go by the taste, for it’s that unique, one-of-a-kind flavor that makes a Limbertwig… a Limbertwig! Any meaningful discussion of Limbertwig apples must acknowledge the diligent work of the late Henry Morton of Gatlinburg, Tennessee, who has to be recognized as the one individual most directly responsible for locating, propagating and restoring dozens of “lost” Limbertwig varietie

http://bighorsecreekfarm.com/the-limbertwig-story/

Francis_Eric

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 616
    • 40 miles west of Chicago Aurora IL ZONE 5
    • View Profile
    • https://myspace.com/undisclosedforthetime/
Re: Apples in hot, humid climates
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2021, 10:18:43 AM »
DO you think that if you tried again you would try more cooking apples or even bitter sharp cider apples?

I do not mind eating apples with sooty blotch which look like a dirty apple
when you say rot do you mean oxidized, and rotten brown inside?

IS there a window where you could of picked early before that happens and eaten it sour ?
or left out to try to ripen on the counter top more so.

We have marble size crab apples so acidic I would believe they would not rot in the climate
they can be frozen to break down,
 and used in tea after becoming and fully dethawed to softness
 or just use hard -- a blender in a smoothie would work.

do you have bad outbreaks or did you of cedar apple rusts

If that hard cooking apple did good I wonder if a hard quince would turn softer and juicier
(I like them hard, and dry  so I can dehydrate , and also store (whole left alone), but that'd be interesting)

Quote
One surprise was Bramley's seedling. It was one of the heathiest trees. Great Britain's best cooking apple, but very acidic and not eaten out of hand there. When I grew it, it had a nearly perfect sugar-acid balance. I bet the brix was close to 20. It was intensely sweet and subacid. An Englishman would probably drop dead of shock eating one like that. I am sure it never ever attained that level of quality in the British Isles. I do wonder how it would perform in Australia if anyone can chime in on that. The tree itself is triploid and seemed immune to fungal problems. Fruit needed minimal spraying since it was late maturity. My goat herd killed that tree when they got into the orchard so I only fruited it twice.
Pristine was also a big surprise. Small, Golden Delicious type. Extended bloom period and very disease resistant

Cedar apple rust


« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 10:21:28 AM by Francis_Eric »

achetadomestica

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2243
    • FLORIDA 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Apples in hot, humid climates
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2021, 10:51:27 AM »
I tried to grow low chill apples and was not impressed with the low production
and mediocre taste. Apples aren't really up there on my favorite fruits anyway.
I settled and bought a couple Thai jujubes. They fruit around December and January
and are very low maintenance. I get literally thousands of fruit every year. I must
have given at least a thousand fruit away and ate a handful every morning and still
had thousands laying on the ground left over

TonyinCC

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Trying to enjoy home grown fruit 12 months a year
    • Cape Coral,FL
    • View Profile
Re: Apples in hot, humid climates
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2021, 01:24:54 PM »
None of the standard Low chill apples did well on the South Carolina coastal plain. Sooty blotch and flyspeck are pretty much a given in the southern US. Limbertwigs didn't like the coastal plain much .
 As far as rot, I mean real rot, like from nothing to unusable in a day or two. Like anthracnose on a mango but even faster to spoil the fruit. Black rot , white rot, bitter rot. Some varieties could be partially salvaged for pies,etc. Crabapples did poorly too and when they rot there is nothing to salvage. Bramley's was intended to be grown as a cooking apple but was a fine dessert apple in that climate. Several russet varieties were excellent and more tolerant to rot.
Thai jujubes are a decent substitute for a bland store bought Granny Smith. Great texture and pleasant but very little flavor and only slightly sweet. I actually prefer them to a Granny Smith.
 Granny Smith apple did not do well but it seedling Reverend Morgan from the Houston area was a very good fruit. One of the better choices.
 Black limbertwig fruited but the bears always got to the fruit before me.
Apple breeding programs should focus on heat tolerance, disease resistance and fruit quality to be ready for a warmer world. If you market varieties with a short shelf life in season locally, they will sell out. Commodity apples suck as a general rule.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 01:34:20 PM by TonyinCC »

Fygee

  • Las Vegas Gardening Community Admin
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
    • Las Vegas, NV
    • View Profile
    • Las Vegas Gardening Community
Re: Apples in hot, humid climates
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2021, 01:33:31 PM »
Similar to Vegas where it's stupid hot and dry, apple trees will grow just fine but the fruit tends to be low yield and not all that great tasting, even with low chill varieties.

We just don't get the proper chill hours during the winter for them to produce like they're supposed to. I presume it's even more difficult in Florida since your winters rarely have days you can define as "cold".
Continuing my journey to disprove those who say "You can't grow that in the desert" since 2013.

TonyinCC

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Trying to enjoy home grown fruit 12 months a year
    • Cape Coral,FL
    • View Profile
Re: Apples in hot, humid climates
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2021, 01:38:10 PM »
I found varieties with much better quality than the standard low chill apples and mentioned a few earlier in the thread. Might be easier to grow some of them in Vegas than in SC due to less fungal pressure. Try topworking a few branches if you have trees in the ground.