Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Temperate Fruit & Orchards => Temperate Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: TriangleJohn on April 15, 2015, 09:15:55 AM

Title: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: TriangleJohn on April 15, 2015, 09:15:55 AM
Some of you may recall that last year I had one branch of one of my Asimina triloba trees flower late in the summer. All four of my trees had flowered and fruited like normal but this one also had one branch flower again in August (and the flowers were on top of the branch and facing upward, which is odd). At the same time my Cherimoya tree was flowering in the greenhouse. I attempted to hand pollinate flowers on both trees. I had been told that Pawpaw needed an unrelated cross in order to fruit and since no other pawpaws were flowering at that time I assumed any fruit produced would be a result of the Cherimoya pollen. I had hoped that the Cherimoya would make fruit since it is indoors and protected from cold, thinking that a hybrid between them would not be winter hardy. Well the pawpaw did set fruit and I sowed the seeds and kept them isolated from any pawpaw seeds that I also sowed. Of the 6 seeds only two sprouted and one of them died almost immediately after sprouting. The lone survivor is doing well but growing slow (which is normal at this stage). I had hoped that the non-crossed pawpaw seeds would also sprout so that I could evaluate their leaves to determine if I indeed have a cross but so far none of them have emerged. I've been told that because their chromosome count is different that they more than likely did not cross and that this plant is a solid pawpaw. I've also been told that the local university can't do any sort of analysis on the tissues to determine if it is a cross. So the only thing I can do at this point is watch it grow and hope it appears different than a solid pawpaw.


(http://s13.postimg.cc/qxc60hpcz/DSCN0685.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/qxc60hpcz/)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: nullzero on April 15, 2015, 04:21:39 PM
Keep us updated, even if its most likely not a cherimoya cross its always interesting to watch a seedling progress.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: shaneatwell on April 15, 2015, 10:39:23 PM
Very cool. Good luck!

Are they graft compatible?
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Marsbars on April 17, 2015, 03:07:21 AM
Did the supposed hybrid seeds look any different than  the pawpaw seeds?
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: TriangleJohn on April 17, 2015, 10:20:19 AM
The fruit was smaller and the seeds were smaller and rounder. Still flat, but more of a perfect circle than the long stretched out shape of a pawpaw seed. The branch that bloomed twice last year is blooming and setting fruit now. I'll keep an eye on it to see if it reblooms again this year. The Cherimoya is started to wake up from its winter nap and it is developing flower buds. I need to really pay attention to it this year and try harder to hand pollinate it.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on September 18, 2018, 06:19:55 AM
Helo John, can you tell us, how this seedling did grow and if you can see any differences to a "normal" Paw Paw plant and to a "normal" Cherimoya plant? This would be very interesting for me also! Because I am also working on creating such an hybrid. I had stored Asimina triloba pollen in an refrigerator. At time my Chermioyas begin to bloom, and i am working to pollinate the flowers with Asimina pollen. Enclosed you will find a picture of my pollinating trial. One pollinated flower has fallen down but I think that I pollinated it too early - before female stage. Some more flowers will develop in the next days so I am hoping that I will get results. I will keep you informed about my success!
(https://i.postimg.cc/VJk02YYP/DSC08305.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VJk02YYP)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on September 18, 2018, 04:40:08 PM
For informational purposes only:
Folks have tried crossing pawpaw with its tropical relatives before, if i'm not mistaken. Possibly as far back as Fairchild, Zimmerman...and possibly even Bill Whitman (I know he tried growing pawpaw but not sure about hybridizing).
Neal Peterson of eminent pawpaw fame has focused on Asimina inter-specific crosses and I believe had tried Annona crosses unsuccessfully prior to that (could be wrong on that).

To me the pawpaw is so unique and different from Annona species, i'm not sure what the goals of crossing would be. (legitimate question, not snark) :)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on September 19, 2018, 04:44:42 AM
Hello Triloba Tracker,

thanks for your comments and suggestions. I agree with you, there is not much chance of success, but who knows. I also researched a lot of literature and read testimonials on the subject, and everything I've read does not sound optimistic. But I mean, tasting is about studying. Certainly I have other individuals, live in another part of the world and certainly do not work in everything with the same parameters as all those who have already tried ... What motivates me is that I can already think of many things without much thought For example, the hybridization of Poncirus trifoliata with Citrus ichangensis, with Poncirus trifoliata as the parent plant, which was absolutely impossible according to literature research at the time .... it worked for me right away! Yes, the breeding goals you've been asking for, or the motivation to hybridize Annona and Asimina are the following - actually, I'd like to tweak some of Cherimoya's drawbacks:

- Cherimoya is subtropical, but not particularly cold tolerant. According to experience, light frosts are already causing massive damage to her. A hybrid could be a bit more cold-tolerant, but still suitable for warm climates (the pure Asimina develops poorly, it is poor in warm to hot regions)
- Cherimoya has a lot of seeds, but Paw Paw has few compared to the fruit mass, and there are also Paw Paw varieties that have very few seeds, taken as a parent ... .. A hybrid of both could be a kind of cranimoya with wizened cores
- The aroma of both parents is interesting in itself, in the mix, the Armoma could be a very special!
- Cherimoya has a relatively soft and sensitive skin, Asimina has a slightly more stable and pressure-sensitive consistency.
- Asimina has a clean separation of style and fear, even when ripe, she falls to the separation, and there is no hole in the fruit, which even when harvested to full maturity still allows a relatively long shelf life of the fruit. On the other hand, cherimoya dissolves from the stalk at full maturity, creating a crater-like wound in fear, from which mold and rot quickly spread, and spoil the fruit. A hybrid could have a smaller separation between style and fruit like cherimoya ....
- Pollination of Asimina-like flowers is easier for insects by the exposure of the inner flower parts, especially the female part, as pollination of the very closed female Cherimoya flower. A hybrid of both could have relatively exposed internal flower parts that are readily accessible to insects.
- last not least ... .The hybrid could be a cold-compatible pad for cherimoya, or you could ennoble these hybrids in addition to Asimina to grow as a hybrid in colder areas, or they as Zwischenveredlung (adapter) to then on to Cherimoya ennoble, also to culture in colder areas.

Maybe there are other arguments, but the mentioned ones motivate me anyway enough and enough to work on the hybrid. I've had it in my head for a long time, never done it, but after reading all that was written about it, I decided ....
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on September 19, 2018, 08:29:38 AM
I absolutely think you should do whatever you are driven to do! As we say, "there's a first time for everything."

Do you have mature Asimina triloba trees of your own? Or where are you getting your pollen?

I would quibble with a few of the things you mentioned about Asimina triloba:
1) If the fruit falls on its own, there will be a "scar" - a hole in the skin and slight indentation in the flesh. The fruit definitely does not have a clean separation like a mango or apple or pear. It can be cut at the peduncle to avoid this, but not if the fruit is in a cluster or if you are harvesting a lot of fruit.
2) The skin is actually usually quite thin and fragile. From the cherimoyas i've eaten, the cherimoya skin is much, much thicker and tougher than pawpaw
3) short shelf-life of pawpaw is considered one of its major drawbacks. I would say it's about the same as cherimoya, possibly worse.
4) i think a comparison of seed-to-flesh ratio of pawpaw and cherimoya would be interesting. Pawpaw is considered pretty "seedy" except for a few varieties particularly from Neal Peterson. Cherimoyas do have a lot of seeds, in a sense, but they are small and easily avoided. Pawpaw seeds are a little more annoying.

Take care!!
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: starch on September 19, 2018, 09:44:09 AM

4) i think a comparison of seed-to-flesh ratio of pawpaw and cherimoya would be interesting. Pawpaw is considered pretty "seedy" except for a few varieties particularly from Neal Peterson. Cherimoyas do have a lot of seeds, in a sense, but they are small and easily avoided. Pawpaw seeds are a little more annoying.

Take care!!

It's funny because it is all relative. After eating lots of sugar apples that have *tons* of seeds, I don't think cherimoyas are all that seedy! It all depends on your basis of view :)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on September 19, 2018, 12:10:27 PM

4) i think a comparison of seed-to-flesh ratio of pawpaw and cherimoya would be interesting. Pawpaw is considered pretty "seedy" except for a few varieties particularly from Neal Peterson. Cherimoyas do have a lot of seeds, in a sense, but they are small and easily avoided. Pawpaw seeds are a little more annoying.

Take care!!

It's funny because it is all relative. After eating lots of sugar apples that have *tons* of seeds, I don't think cherimoyas are all that seedy! It all depends on your basis of view :)

Agree!
That’s why seed to weight/flesh ratios would be interesting to compare.
For example Neal Peterson’s Susquehanna pawpaw he reports only 3% seed by total weight. That’s considered very low (good).
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on September 19, 2018, 05:05:41 PM
@all: Thanks for your replies and thoughts!

@Triloba Tracker
to 1) I agree with you that with Paw Paw, when it is ripe from the tree, a small scar is formed, but for a long time there is no wound as big as that of the Cherimoya, when the fruit is fully ripe and trapped by gravity, the stem becomes full Fruit marc ripped from the middle of the fruit when it falls from the tree. Here are a few photos that show how small the wound is when Paw Paws fall from the tree. There is nothing left behind, and the fear has a small wound that dries quickly, and nothing bad at the fruit happens in the next days. while at same time a Chermioya fruit will begin rottenn and smudges at her great wound and the fruit soon spoils ....all happens after it falls fully ripe from the tree. Of course, you can trim them immature on the stem, but fruits ripened on the tree are more valuable in terms of better flavor.
Regarding 2) The Paw Paw strains I have and the Cherimoya strains that I have are the other way round, it is quite a skin resistant to pressure and injury to Paw Paw and quite sensitive and sensitive to the skin of Cherimoya , It may be that there are varietal differences regarding the stability of the skin in both Paw Paw and Cherimoya.
to 3) I have experienced that Paw Paws harder if they fall from tree like Cherimoyas, probably because of 1)
to 4) Definitely there are some - and also non-Petersen - varieties, which fruits show little number of seeds and much flesch. The best I have is Prima 1216, an Italien breed. As a rule, the fruit is no longer like 6-7 seeds, and the fruits are also huge!
In addition, Paw Paw quickly finished when you cut the fruits along, you pull out the manageable number of cores, as they are usually all sees and finds, and can spoon out the rest. At Cherimoya, the core quest does not stop until the fruit is finished .... it's really annoying! A hybrid of both might have a smaller number of nuclei like Chermioaya.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N5RZMRVh/DSC08370.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N5RZMRVh)

(https://i.postimg.cc/TyN4S0yb/DSC08371.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TyN4S0yb)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fk9r2xM3/DSC08372.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fk9r2xM3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/K1Zp8wBL/DSC08387.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K1Zp8wBL)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QF049mJz/DSC08390.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QF049mJz)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QF049mJz/DSC08390.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QF049mJz)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on September 19, 2018, 05:29:27 PM
I agree and all excellent points!
Great pictures.

How long have you been growing pawpaw? Would like to hear more about your trees, etc
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on September 19, 2018, 05:34:52 PM
Hi, to your question - for 25 years I am growing Paw Paws now! Yes, we can Keep in contact of course!
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on September 19, 2018, 06:15:24 PM
That's awesome!

yes feel free to send me a message.. also it might be nice to hear about your pawpaws, in general, over on the "asiminaholics anonymous" thread...
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triphal on September 21, 2018, 08:26:16 PM
Since September 5, I have been picking and plucking over hundred (100) fruits a day average. Only about 30 left in the trees now. I have planted 3 grafted trees 'clumped or packed within 12 feet! One each of Pennsylvania, Susquehanna and Sunflower about 8 or 9 years ago. Last year we had more fruits,so didn't expect much this year.
The seeds are very light but  bulky. And Neal Peterson's " seeds are 3% of the fruit" is unintentionally misleading. By volume I feel seed to pulp ratio is about 55 to 45. Most (over 95%) of our harvest was distributed to friends. If we mulch generously and keep the under brush heavy, fruits will have less injury. We are about 4 to 5 miles away from the closest river. But a stream connecting that river is only half a mile away from our property. Our well is about 200 feet deep and the water table is about 125'. We had a dozen of almost 6" long fruits! But in general fruits of variable sizes from one and a half inches(very few) to 5". They are all delicious.
Early yellowish change in the color and fullness at the stalk  and sometimes small insects floating around and of course the smell are signs to harvest. But the trees are about 35 feet tall and it is hard to harvest most of them by hand without using a ladder. As soon as you harvest keep it in the refrigerator in the garage.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on September 22, 2018, 05:05:31 PM
Thank you for sharing your experiences here with us. I can confirm much of what you have done. The repeatedly stated small appearing ratio of the seeds to the rest of the fruit is actually misleading! The weight of the seeds is relative to their volume very light and much lighter than the pulp of the fruit. I can confirm that about 50%, with some varieties it is a little better. The best variety is Prima 1216, an Italian selection, it has not only a better ratio of semen volume to fruit volume, but few kernels, at most only 5-7 kernels per fruit, which are quickly found and removed. The kernels are slightly larger than at other paw paw varieties, but as I said, they are quickly found and removed due to the low number of pieces! So the food of the fruit is not so tedious and it makes more joy. To taste, I find all varieties good.

Interesting what you wrote to determine the fruit ripeness. I have not noticed the colouration of the string in the direction of yellow, but now that you've written it, I notice ...... you're right! Of course, the smell is an unmistakable sign, and those that grow close to the ground, where I carefully test whether they detach themselves from the stalk, because I like them most when they fall fully ripe from the tree. Only if they actually fall, and land on the ground, then they can be damaged, and worse, come with me from time to time also snails and eat them. For many years now, I have been attaching small nets to the respective branch for particularly large and beautiful fruits, which actually come as waste from fruits and vegetables from the supermarket. The ripe fruit then falls into the net and remains undamaged and unreachable for Schnecken! I attach a photo to it. This year, for a test, I stretched a net under a tree into which the ripe fruit could fall. It has proven itself. It is less work and if you check it several times a day, it does not or rarely happens that one fruit falls on another fruit. Of course, the net has to be fastened in several places and supported in the free areas more than soft. Attached also a photo of the net that has just caught a fruit.

This year, I harvested every few fruits and passed them on ... I usually weighed between 80 and 170 grams. Some (few) were smaller, some were a bit bigger. Since we had a hot, dry summer, about 50% of the fruit fell off in July and partly in August, the kernels were still light, the flesh was not finished yet, you could not eat it ... but it still existed still enough ripe fruit now in September. I've been harvesting Paw Paws for three weeks, but now all the fruit has been harvested. I have also distributed some in the circle of acquaintances. Also some that you have not known. Almost everyone is excited. Only one said he did not taste it, it's the consistency of the flesh that's not his case. But he also does not like cherimoyas .... I'll sit with you for the storage of the fruits, a cool place helps to extend the shelf life, but still, I like the most ripe ones from the tree when the shell is getting dark , and then the taste changes, I think they are not that great anymore, but they are eaten anyway!
(https://i.postimg.cc/r0X6k6Hg/Fruit_not_fallen.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/r0X6k6Hg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/F7WHQRVZ/Fruit_in_Net.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7WHQRVZ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qN64VGRJ/Fruit_in_net_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qN64VGRJ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rRp2h13L/Fallen_Fruits.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rRp2h13L)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on October 12, 2018, 04:53:30 PM
Update: One of the Cherimoya  flowers which I have pollinated with Asimina pollen set fruit. I am not to 100% sure that it is only pollinated with Asimina pollen, it could also be pollinated with pollen of Cherimoya. Nevertheless.... the Asimina pollen has been the first who could have pollinated the flower....Now we will wait - hoping that the fruit will get ripe add not fall down unripe.

And now I am collecting some Chermimoya pollen to pollinate some Asimina flowers next spring;-) Because Imy Cherimoya plant is small and have only few flowers I try to collect any pollen possible with a little plastic box which I have fastened below the flower a short time bevor switching into the male mode.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Vd438n9Z/Young-Fruit.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qhTTR0N1/Pollen-collecting-with-cap.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZWvtx03f/Pollen-fallen-in-cap.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: KarenRei on October 12, 2018, 08:11:44 PM
And now I am collecting some Chermimoya pollen to pollinate some Asimina flowers next spring;-)

You expect it to be viable for that long?
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on October 14, 2018, 03:37:47 PM
@Karen: Yes, I do. Commercial growers of Cherimoya are soring the pollen of Cherimoya in the refrigerator to be able to pollinate flowers sometime later. I will kepp the pollen frozen by -25 °F until next spring for pollinating Asimina flowers with it.
Maybe I will make a test next year for visbility.....and take some of this pollen for seeing the result when pollinating Cherimoya flowers with it....
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: TriangleJohn on November 14, 2018, 07:58:00 PM
usirius - do you get any natural pollination on cherimoya? I have to hand pollinate my flowers, the local insects ignore them.

I still have two of the possible hybrids. They have been very slow growing which is typical for pawpaws under my care. I have had them outside in pots this fall but my drag them into the greenhouse to save them from harsh winter weather. The leaves look just like pawpaw leaves so I doubt they are hybrids.

For years I collected and sowed seeds for my pawpaws but now I simply wait for a very rainy day in the middle of the winter after the suckers around the parent trees have gone dormant and I simply pull the suckers out of the ground. They snap off of the mother plant's root with a sort of an elbow shape and often one tiny fragile root. I pot them up with standard potting soil and leave in a sheltered area. They sprout in the spring and usually start growing very fast. I plant them in the ground after one full year in a pot (to get maximum root growth). Some of these transplants even flower and fruit while still very small. This method is much better than seed growing for me.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on November 15, 2018, 08:12:30 AM
That’s really interesting, TJ. Goes against everything I’ve read about near-impossibility of transplanting or especially starting from a sucker.
Of course, that means precisely nothing! There are few absolutes in this business . Obviously it’s working for you!
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on November 27, 2018, 03:22:24 AM
@ TT/TJ: Most of my PawPaws are breeded varieties. Only one tree produces suckers. Only one has started last year to make root shoots. I let them grow first, they are still small. Usually I either buy grafted plants or I even refine sorts that are not or hardly available for sale. For example, I have a variety that is self-pollinating, but is not both the Prima1216 variety and the Sunflower variety. Refining is a bit tricky, you have to refine dormant material to driving documents at the right time. With a bit of luck, that will work. Rooting of vines, which is not a problem with other fruit trees such as citrus, apples, berry bushes and so on, I have not made at Paw Paws yet. -  @ TJ: To your question, whether pollinating insects Paw Paws with me: Once this actually worked without any help from me, but usually I have to dust by hand to get fruit. For the PawPaws this took a while until the insects learned it here, the Paw Paw is not homey here. But now they know it, and have probably "inherited" the learned knowledge to their offspring, every year more and more flies, small insects and different beetles such as rose beetle or wood beetle come. - The mention of the mentioned me asimina pollen pollinated flower blossom has formed a fruiting body, which is still on the plant, see attached picture, it is now about the size of a cherry. 12 hours later, after pollination with Asimina pollen, I dusted up with cherimoya pollen ... to make sure that the fruit does not fall off ... so some kernels could actually have Asimina as father ... it remains exciting. In the spring I will pollinate in turn, frozen cherimoya pollen on asimina flowers. I will report.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KKL5xMrz/Cherimoya-x-Paw-Paw.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KKL5xMrz)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Draak on March 22, 2019, 01:28:49 AM
This is really exciting! I have 4 pawpaws, but another annona fruits really struggle here. I'm really hoping you get some good results :).
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Guanabanus on April 01, 2019, 09:23:30 PM
In the early 1990's, Mr. Crafton Clift and I, both of whom had been working for years as plant breeders, repeatedly over-night-mailed pollen of Asimna triloba and Annona species to each other, and used it immediately when it arrived.  For this experiment, he was in his hometown, Newburn, Tennessee, with plenty of large Pawpaw trees, and I was in Boynton Beach, working with the many species and varieties available in the breeding collection at Zill's. 

Although most of this pollen was used when it was less than 24 hours old, it was definitely not fresh, and not refrigerated or prepared in any way, just enveloped as it was.

All cross-genera pollinated flowers  were quickly rejected. Dropped.  Hundreds of them.

One cannot prove a negative, but pollen mailed that way is probably going to be a waste.  Fresh on the same property?  Who knows!  We were never so blessed.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on April 17, 2019, 06:15:12 AM
Thank you for sharing your interesting experiences by using mailed pollen. I cannot imagine that normally stored Asimina or Cherimoya pollen will survive for more than two or three days and than still be able to pollinate flowers. I pollinated a cherimoya flower with asimina pollen stored in a freidge. I hope that the fruit of the result does include hybridisized seeds. The fruit has growed to a big fruit in the meantime, I will upload a picture later. From the flowering Cherimoya I stored some pollen frozen in my fridge. In some days my Asiminia plants (I will take the varieties Sunflower or Prima1216 ) will start to bloom and than I will pollinate some flower with Cherimoya pollen and mark them. I give updates as soon as there are any news.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on April 17, 2019, 12:52:16 PM
Thank you for sharing your interesting experiences by using mailed pollen. I cannot imagine that normally stored Asimina or Cherimoya pollen will survive for more than two or three days and than still be able to pollinate flowers. I pollinated a cherimoya flower with asimina pollen stored in a freidge. I hope that the fruit of the result does include hybridisized seeds. The fruit has growed to a big fruit in the meantime, I will upload a picture later. From the flowering Cherimoya I stored some pollen frozen in my fridge. In some days my Asiminia plants (I will take the varieties Sunflower or Prima1216 ) will start to bloom and than I will pollinate some flower with Cherimoya pollen and mark them. I give updates as soon as there are any news.

Awesome - good luck and can't wait to see the pictures.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on April 19, 2019, 03:36:12 PM
Enclosed you will find some actual pictures from my trials of hybridization of Paw Paw and Cherimoya:

- Fruit of Cherimoya - Flower has been pollinated with Paw Paw pollen - hoping that noCherimoya pollen has also pollinated the flower
- Flowering Paw Paws - Varieties Mango, Sunflower and Prima1216 - which today have been pollinated with frozen stored Cherimoya pollen - pollinated flowers are wrapped in a thread as marking method
- Protection net to make sure that hopefully no insect pollinates the pollinated flowers

(https://i.postimg.cc/grm2Jqwr/Chrimoya-pollinated-w-Asiminia-pollen.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/grm2Jqwr)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8s4PrJW4/Mango-cherimoya-pollinated.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8s4PrJW4)

(https://i.postimg.cc/21bzJ0t9/Prima-1216-Flowers.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/21bzJ0t9)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sMkVRpdj/Protection.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMkVRpdj)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Ln09NcxZ/Sunflower-chrimoya-pollinated.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ln09NcxZ)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on April 19, 2019, 05:10:52 PM
Wow that’s really cool what you have going there!

Have you tried putting bags or mesh around the individual flowers?
I’ve never done controlled crosses like this but always thought if I did I would bag target female flowers before they even open, remove bag just for me to pollinate, and immediately bag it again until fruit begins to form.
I have organza (type of fabric) bags from papermart.com
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: pvaldes on April 19, 2019, 08:59:23 PM
How do you deal with the frost in Germany @usirius? Is not too cold there for Cherimoya survival or fruiting?
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on April 20, 2019, 04:03:21 PM
@ Triloba Tracker:

I covered not evry single flowers with a bag due to I do not have such bags and due this is more work and time intensive. I covered some twogs together with a net. The insects which here visits the flower are considerably smaller than the size of the holes of the net.

My strategy of pollinating Paw Paw with Cherimoya Pollen this year is the follwing:

- use several Varieties of Paw Paw to increase the likelihood of success
- take also Paw Paw verieties which are self fertile - they seem for me having less probles with other pollen
- take not the first flowers and not the last oness. Be between, but more tot the beginning wher enot so much Paw Paw Pollen is available
- pollinate the same flower several times - each time with freshly unfrozen pollen - which I have frozen in protions in my fridge
- mark pollinated flowers
- avoid other pollination by protection

I think tomorrow I will be ready with pollinating Paw Paw flowers in this sprng...because I am not having very much Chermioya pollen. I have pollinated in total a little bit more than 20 flowers. And but if only one fruit crossed with Cherimoya Pollen will develop to full maturity I would be happy!

@ pvaldes:

In Germany it is only possible to grow Cherimoya in plein air during spring until autumn where it flowers. From autmn to spring  it need to be protected from freees. Perfect would be a green house - or a sunny place in a house and at temperatures around 15°C . According to my Long year experiences fruits develop and get ripe by treating the plants as described. And they are as tasty as those grown in warm climates.

Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on April 21, 2019, 04:32:49 PM
Today the fruit of Cherimoya has fallen down after fully ripened - the flower before this fruti has developped has been pollinated in last autumn by cool (not frozen) stored Asiminia pollen. Now let's see what happened or not...I first will enjoy teating the fruit of course and take some photos after opening it. Enclosed you will find some photo from the still unopened fully mature fruit after falling down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9zvQ0Vcn/DSC00353.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9zvQ0Vcn)

(https://i.postimg.cc/JszvWD9V/DSC00354.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JszvWD9V)

(https://i.postimg.cc/23vfHWf0/DSC00355.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/23vfHWf0)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on April 21, 2019, 04:41:27 PM
Today I was able to take photosn which show how effective this simple form of protection - a fine-meshed net - can be in protecting flowers from unwanted foreign pollination for hybridisation trials! -The two picture show a rose beetle that likes to eat pollen from pollen containing flowers like the Paw Paw flowers. Before I took those two pictures, the beetle flew around the net for about 1 minute! So he wanted to get to the flowers that are protected in this net!
(https://i.postimg.cc/9rs21BDg/DSC00358.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rs21BDg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2LVp7qrf/DSC00359.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2LVp7qrf)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on April 25, 2019, 05:06:56 PM
Now it is time to inform you what I have found in t he inside of the frut where the flower has been  pollinated with Paw Paw Pollen.
At first I noticed after the oven that it contained relatively much flesh and relatively few seeds. It was very pleasant to eat! And the taste like Ananas with some Lemon aroma. Only 20 seeds I could find in this big fruit, that's almost Paw-Paw level! The seeds have an unusually small size. The weight of the 20 grains has been 4,5 grams. They are smaller than Paw Paw kernels and smaller than Cherimoya kernels. But they seemed to be developed. The question is how to proceed now. Stratify? Or rather not, because Paw Paw has genes in it. It remains exciting! The first two PawPaw flowers pollinated with Cherimoya pollen have fallen off today, but there are still a lot of them hanging around. We'll see how the hybridization story goes on, it's not over for me yet!

(https://i.postimg.cc/KkBcj1LD/DSC00564.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KkBcj1LD)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yWh0xPFt/DSC00582.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWh0xPFt)

(https://i.postimg.cc/345DJ4W3/DSC00639.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/345DJ4W3)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: SeaWalnut on April 25, 2019, 05:18:27 PM
To avoid stratification you could try gibberellic acid on them .Various concentrations and not on all the seeds ,keep some to sow like annona.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on April 26, 2019, 01:43:40 AM
SeaWalnut

Thank you for thiis useful hint, sounds well. I thought to treat some of them in a medium like manner - by regarding sawing of Cherimoya and Paw Paw seeds..
, I will try to store them two or three weeks at a cool er place - maybe 10 °C and than let them gow at a warm place.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: NickTheNZgrower on May 01, 2019, 12:35:22 AM
This is an amazing experiment and I'm following with interest. No one, as far as I know, has got as far as you, to have seeds now from a Cherimoya pollinated with pawpaw. The seeds actually look like a mix of cherimoya and pawpaw seeds so this looks really promising... Wow. Be sure to update us once the seedlings emerge. I'd try a few stratified and the rest planted like cherimoya :)

Nick
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: SoCal2warm on May 07, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
Some research I was able to dig up:

George A. Zimmerman undertook an 18-year project to breed pawpaw, attempting to produce intergeneric hybrids by crossing Sugar Apple (Annona squamosa) and atemoya (A. squamosa x A. reticulata) with Pawpaw (Asimina triloba). He was unsuccessful. But he did successfully create interspecific
hybrids by crossing Asimina obovata, A. longifolia, and Asimina reticulata with Asimina tribola. The A. triloba x A. obovata hybrids appeared fertile.
Unfortunately, Zimmerman died in 1941 before his other crosses matured.

Pawpaw Variety Development: A History and Future Prospects, R. Neal Peterson,
Horttechnology, July-September 2003
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 07, 2019, 02:30:10 PM
Most otther Asimina species are verry little shrubs except A Tetramera from what i remember and are highly endangered species.They are also edible but reports say they dont taste as good as A Triloba.In USA there is a woman that dedicated her time in conservating those endangered Asimina species.http://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2018/3/13/the-other-pawpaws (http://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2018/3/13/the-other-pawpaws) Here is a link with an interview with that lady about the otther Asimina species she is trying to protect. http://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/floridas-amazing-native-pawpaws/ (http://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/floridas-amazing-native-pawpaws/)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on May 07, 2019, 02:58:33 PM
Most otther Asimina species are verry little shrubs except A Tetramera from what i remember and are highly endangered species.They are also edible but reports say they dont taste as good as A Triloba.In USA there is a woman that dedicated her time in conservating those endangered Asimina species.[url]http://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2018/3/13/the-other-pawpaws[/url] ([url]http://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2018/3/13/the-other-pawpaws[/url]) Here is a link with an interview with that lady about the otther Asimina species she is trying to protect. [url]http://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/floridas-amazing-native-pawpaws/[/url] ([url]http://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/floridas-amazing-native-pawpaws/[/url])


Very interesting - thank you for sharing! I have not really had any interest in other Asimina species. I have seen them in the Florida panhandle quite readily (e.g. Watercolor/Seaside), however, and even have found fruit. Not sure which species these were.

I love the picture of the massive taproot. Also interesting to hear that these other pawpaws have the same strong taproot and do not like the roots disturbed.

I have bare-rooted container grown pawpaws and it didn't kill them but it did seem to slow them down. However, I just planted a container-grown tree in the ground; the potting mix all completely fell away, so it was basically bare root. But it is growing vigorously. (KSU Chappell)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Guanabanus on May 07, 2019, 03:58:06 PM
Asimina tetramera is a small shrub;  the several dozen that I have seen were all under 4-feet tall.

Asimina parviflora and Asimina obovata can be small trees, over 10-feet tall.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on May 08, 2019, 06:17:54 AM
SeaWalnut, Guanabanus, So2Calwarm: Thanks a lot for sharing those interesting information. To work on cross and hybridisizing experminets with different representants of the Paw Paw family seem to be interesting! I could imagine that the geometriy and colour of the flower can be a sign for the success in cross trials. For example A. triloba and A. parviflora show similarlities in their flowers - and has been crossed with success....

 Nevertheless I am going on in working on my Asimina hybrids....from for about 20 pollinated flowers still 10 are alive. But I am not 100% sure that those flowers have also been pollinated with Paw Paw pollen by very small insects like ants or emmets....because the holes in the net are wide enough for such insects and I have seen ants in flowers of other Paw Paw trees I have. But what I can say is that the Cherimoya Pollen has been the first on the stamps of the pollinated flowers ;-) We will see what happens.

The seeds of the Cherimoya fruit which flower has been pollinated with Paw Paw Pollen some months ago are already put and stored in some moisty soil for I would say 4 weeks and for about 5°C, I think not too cold for Cherimoya and cold enough for stratification if needed.... 

All: Do you think, that growing of such hybridisized seeds can work when treated in such manner?
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Ilya11 on May 09, 2019, 03:13:48 PM
Annona and Asimina have very similar genome size (1.7pg) but different chromosome numbers: 2x7 for Annona and 2x8  for Asimina.
It is probably worth to produce tetraploids in both species by chromosome doubling and than to  cross them.
Like this the fertility barrier has been broken in many other agriculturally important plants.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on May 21, 2019, 01:47:40 PM
@ Ilya11
 
Thank you for explanation of the scientific / genetic correlation and background. Well, this sounds logical that this may have a significant influence on the probability of pollination / hybridization success.

 
@All
I will not give up so quickly! One of my well experienced life mottos is “tasting is about studying”

Enclosed you will find some pictures of my actual Asiminia-Cherimoya-hybrid trials.

From about more than 20 pollinated flowers there are still some remaining an seem to grow to a fruit. As already noted some time before  I have marked the pollinated flowers with a tie.

First Picture: With Cherimoya Pollen pollinated flower of variety 'Mano' - still alive
Second Picture: With Cherimoya Pollen pollinated flower of variety 'Sunflower' - still alive (also two other omes)
Thir Picture: With Cherimoya Pollen pollinated flower of variety 'Prima1216' - dead (there are also many other dead pollinated flowers - all varieties)
Fourth Pictur:  With Cherimoya Pollen pollinated flower of variety 'Prima1216' - still alive
Fifth Picture:With Cherimoya Pollen pollinated flower of variety 'Prima1216' - still alive (and three other ones)
Sixth Picture: Do you have any idea?  ;-)

We will see what will happen the next weeks and months.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LhjR8d8f/DSC06192.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LhjR8d8f)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PPmq9pwg/DSC06195.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PPmq9pwg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hh8Wq921/DSC06198.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hh8Wq921)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qzQPNpVt/DSC06199.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzQPNpVt)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tYCXSS9x/DSC06200.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYCXSS9x)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dL1Ymh9R/DSC06201.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dL1Ymh9R)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Ilya11 on May 21, 2019, 02:05:44 PM
Actually, do somebody know if there are  tetraploids of Asimina?
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Guanabanus on May 21, 2019, 03:00:28 PM
A paper published in Australia in 2014, indicated a lack of success, up till then, in producing tetraploids of atemoyas [called "custard-apples" over there].  I haven't seen any updates.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Ilya11 on May 22, 2019, 04:26:18 AM
It seems that spontaneous triploids and  tetraploids are observed in cherimolaX atemoya backcrosses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6378316/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6378316/)

Triploids seedlings  also occur in Asimina in areas with high temperature fluctuation during flowering
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2481881?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents (https://www.jstor.org/stable/2481881?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)

That  means that a sufficient number of unreduced diploid pollen grains is produced in Asimina and can be used to pollinate flowers of cherimolaX atemoya that  has a natural tendency to produce fertile unreduced female gametes.
This may result in tetraploid and probably fertile AnonaXAsimina plants.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on May 22, 2019, 11:39:20 AM
It seems that spontaneous triploids and  tetraploids are observed in cherimolaX atemoya backcrosses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6378316/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6378316/)

Triploids seedlings  also occur in Asimina in areas with high temperature fluctuation during flowering
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2481881?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents (https://www.jstor.org/stable/2481881?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)

That  means that a sufficient number of unreduced diploid pollen grains is produced in Asimina and can be used to pollinate flowers of cherimolaX atemoya that  has a natural tendency to produce fertile unreduced female gametes.
This may result in tetraploid and probably fertile AnonaXAsimina plants.

That C i made in college genetics is coming back to haunt me.....  ???
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Guanabanus on May 22, 2019, 03:48:06 PM
Thank you, Ilya11, for finding that very recent paper!

I am surprised at the implication that we have been producing triploids and tetraploides all along, simply by interspecific breeding. 

None of the interspecific hybrids that I produced were seedless.  Quite a few, however, were fruitless.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on May 22, 2019, 04:39:54 PM
So, fill in the blanks for this Mendelian flunky....

What does all this tell us about the possible pathway to, say, a seedless pawpaw? Someone needs to start crossing Asimina triloba with Annona cherimola x atemoya backcrossed progeny?
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Ilya11 on May 22, 2019, 05:06:37 PM
Diploid Asimina/Anona hybrids that Usirius is trying to produce will most probably be non fertile since two parents have different chromosome numbers.
But crossing the combination of two tetraploids will give a tetraploid hybrid with balanced chromosome number. This could be done either by a generation of tetraploid Asimina and Anona by colchicine  or oryzalin treatment and than crossing such plants, or by pollination of hybrid  atemoyas with an excess of Asimina pollen.

Triloba Tracker,
I do not think that triploid asimina will be very fertile like triploid citrus varieties.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on June 30, 2019, 12:31:23 AM
Also thanks from my side for this interesting paper and thoughts for possible future crossing work!

Back to the thread here....I will give you a short update about my crossing trials of Paw Paw togehter with Cherimoya.

- From my spring crossings of Asiminia triloba flowers with Cherimoya pollen most flowers died after Setting fruit. Also many other "normally" Asimina flowers died - may be the wheather (cold period with some night freezes after flowering) may be the root cause. One fruit of a pollinated flower is still alive...

- The seeds of the fruit harvested in spring as result of last year done cross Chermioya flower with Asimina triloba pollen now are germinating - see 2 photos enclosed. One seed seem to germinate as a pair of twin plants...I will keep you informed concerning growth and viewable interspecific signs or properties...

- My mother plants of Cherimoya starts to flower again (see photo enclosed)  - as early as never before - two monts later than Asimina triloba ended flowering....so I will be able to pollinate this tame with more fresh pollen whch I have stored frozen in my fridge - spollen of everal varieties of Asimina I will try to use. I will Keep you informed.

Now I am looking Forward concerning new pollinating Trials and growing of the Young seedlings. And with some luck I will harvest a fruit of Asiminia in autumn wihich flower has been pollinated with Cherimoya pollen.

So there are still many Options for success..we have to wait still some time and than we will see what has happened ;-)

(https://i.postimg.cc/JD76FGD8/DSC06687.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JD76FGD8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/G9HTjd7s/DSC06688.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G9HTjd7s)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HV1W7gfm/DSC06690.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HV1W7gfm)

Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: NickTheNZgrower on July 09, 2019, 04:19:01 AM
This all looks great, thanks for the update. I'm really glad the seeds are germinating. Were these ones stratified?

Looking forward to seeing the seedlings once they have more size.

Nick
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on July 09, 2019, 12:05:13 PM
@ Nick,

the seeds I have treated for stratification as I proposed some time ago - I used only coldness.

In detail I did the following steps:

- After opening the fruit and cleaning the seeds from the fruit flesh I dryed the seeds for a half day at 15°C
-  Than I layed the seeds in slightly moisty soil
-  After this I stored them some days at  temperatures for about 15°C
-  Next step I put the seeds into a fridge and stored them there for 4 weeks at about 5°C
-  Now I put them into plein air - summer time -  temperatures 24-33 °X - first germinating occured after about three weeks waiting time

Enlosed there are some new pictures of the seedlings. For me the leafes looks more similar to Cherimoya leafes. One seedling still is connected with the shell of one of the very special shaped grains - this Picture Show that those seedlings have really germinated from the very Special shaped grains coming out of the fruit of the one Asminia pollinated Cherimoya flower which I posted  here some months ago ,
(https://i.postimg.cc/zbzPpx9H/DSC07002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zbzPpx9H)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QVVftKsD/DSC07003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QVVftKsD)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XZV80pxT/DSC07004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZV80pxT)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WtD7jR6b/DSC07005.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtD7jR6b)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on July 13, 2019, 10:18:50 AM
Now the time has come to start second trial of hybridization using Cherimoya as mother and Asiminia as father - because in the new season the first Cherimoya flower began to open. I took pollen from Asiminia "Prima 1216"- see photos enclosed. For the next fowers which will follow I will also use pollen of several other Asiminia varieties. Please see photos enclosed of pollinating.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mcFznr46/DSC07125.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcFznr46)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rdWsJYGB/DSC07127.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdWsJYGB)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mPg7mRh0/DSC07130.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mPg7mRh0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sQ7WMg0Z/DSC07133.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sQ7WMg0Z)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xkCDjk8t/DSC07135.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkCDjk8t)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QHTcPSqq/DSC07138.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHTcPSqq)
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on July 13, 2019, 11:04:58 AM
Very cool!
I’d never seen a cherimoya flower before.

When was the Asimina pollen collected?
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on July 13, 2019, 12:05:31 PM
@ Triloba Tracker: Thanks for your reply. To your question: I collected Asiminia pollen from several varieties of Paw Paw end of April 2019 and stored it frozen at -25 °C ( -13 °F) until today when I used it the first time. I have taken several other samples of pollen which I still will keep frozen for pollinating next flowers...As it looks like many Cherimoya flowers willl flower in the next weeks - an I will have this time enough Asimina pollen  - frozen in several little cartridges to be able to thaw and use them individually for the several planned pollinations - means to have for each pollination a new pollen batch available.
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: Triloba Tracker on July 13, 2019, 01:00:28 PM
Sounds like a great plan
Title: Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
Post by: usirius on July 19, 2019, 04:00:42 PM
Today I will give some updates:

1. One of the seedlings of the crossing which I did last year Chemimoya (Mother) x Asiminia (Father) by using dried pollen shows crippled growth. Possibly a real hybrid? With the different number of chromosomes of the two parents, it is possible that no normal behaviour can be expected in such a difficult cross... Who knows? We will see...

(https://i.postimg.cc/hfYP9D2V/DSC07200.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hfYP9D2V)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dDHqYQPg/DSC07201.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dDHqYQPg)


2. the recently pollinated flower of Cherimoya is still hanging and it has not (?) dried up. It seems as if the fruit set is still struggling with whether it was really pollinated or not. An unpollinated flower of Cherimoya would have dried out after this time. A properly pollinated flower would have a thicker stalk...so the result is somehow in between. Let's see what else is going on! In contrast to last year I had not pollinated with Chermioya pollen at a later time.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sM0f4VKp/DSC07196.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sM0f4VKp)


3. Cherimoya's second flower this season (and the last one for a long time to come) will probably wait for pollination tomorrow. I will pollinate this time with pollen from Sunflower.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MX8BQDnz/DSC07202.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MX8BQDnz)

4. One of the in last spring pollinated flowers Asiminia (Mother)  x Cherimoya iincludes is still alive - we had freezes after flowering time, therefore many Young fruits Drops down, also normally pollinated fruits. So I hope that ithis fruit will grow further and get ripe- maybe it includes also norma asininia seeds, because I was not able to exclude to 100% pollination by insects.


(https://i.postimg.cc/ykyydGnq/DSC07181.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ykyydGnq)