Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: 561MangoFanatic on August 18, 2017, 04:22:45 PM

Title: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: 561MangoFanatic on August 18, 2017, 04:22:45 PM
So I wanted to change my fertilizers & was wondering if I use these to fertilize my mango trees (& my Miracle fruit), am I over doing it?


(https://s28.postimg.cc/rloy4v1mh/IMG_2726.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rloy4v1mh/)
Wanted to use this as my base. And then add this supplement for K-

(https://s28.postimg.cc/n12rpxhx5/IMG_2724.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/n12rpxhx5/)

Or use this to supplement-


(https://s28.postimg.cc/c2w3lhipl/IMG_2725.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Can I use this one regularly with the first one?
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: zands on August 19, 2017, 10:02:56 AM
What's so bad about going to Excalibur nursery and getting some of their 8-3-9?
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: 561MangoFanatic on August 19, 2017, 06:01:04 PM
What's so bad about going to Excalibur nursery and getting some of their 8-3-9?

Economically it's great for inorganic.. but I've talked to the person who helped formulate that fertilizer mix & I honestly didn't like that sewage cleaner type of chemicals "might" or could be present...  looking to go 100% Organic since others keep telling me it can't be done & also I want to grow only natural & organic food! You are what you eat!! & don't want anything else harmful that I can prevent with some research and time. & since I was trying to mimic a 8-3-16 fertilizer I don't see why I can't use a 8-4-22. I wanted to find a 0-0-16 to add to the 8-4-2 that way during winter I could go 0-3-22.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: bsbullie on August 19, 2017, 06:07:59 PM
You are way over thinking it and far to obsessed with being pure organic.  You are also focusing on the NPK numbers without knowing what is behind them (while the ratio is important, just cause it has a certain ratio does not make it good for fruit trees).  The Excalibur 8-3-9 is a great fertilizer for young trees.  It was custom blended for this area and to have a very good minor element package.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: zands on August 19, 2017, 07:31:30 PM
I vote over thinking too. Whatever infinitesimal bad stuff there is in 8-3-9 will never be found in your mangoes. Mulch heavily with wood chips in a three ft diameter. This is your organic faction. Sprinkle 8 3 9 on top of your mulch where to a certain extent it gets chelated into your mulch. Then it all gets into your soil, makes it black, organic, with lots of beneficial micro organisms.

Your mangoes will have a full "organic" taste.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: beefyboy on August 19, 2017, 09:05:51 PM
I also would put my dollar on the 8-4-8 with micro's, which has blown up everything it touches in my own yard.
You can't go wrong with any of these, depending on whats available in your area.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: gnappi on August 20, 2017, 12:41:55 AM
Every one of my trees took a definite uptick after switching to the Excalibur fertilizer. It's nearly 100 miles round trip for me and well worth it.

Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: 561MangoFanatic on August 20, 2017, 11:20:48 AM
I have minors that I had planned to add the 8-4-22 mix I was going to make. Anyway I still won't use the Excalibur mix personally.. I'll keep using this mix before I do that.. 


(https://s29.postimg.cc/9v8nmxb0j/IMG_2727.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9v8nmxb0j/)



As for over focusing on "organic", yeah possibly 🤣 But that's how I garden & everything I've ever grown & had tasted by others speaks for itself & its 100% "organic". To some that doesn't matter but I don't conform to that notion... doesn't mean I don't take into account everything that everyone else says, you guys have more knowledge & experience but if I can prove you wrong & find new ways to do things I will!!😁
Plus I admit when I'm wrong, even if I have to learn the hard way sometimes.. looks to be one of those  ::)
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: koundog on August 20, 2017, 12:19:33 PM
I'm for it I would never use an inorganic fertilizer either you seem to have a good plan as for you original question don't worry about the ratios I've used some of them before look into the cost of each bag and how much you will be needing if you have a lot of trees it can get expensive pretty quick.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: bsbullie on August 20, 2017, 12:23:11 PM
Dont worry about the ratios?  Hahahahahaha...giid luck with your trees.

Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: murahilin on August 20, 2017, 12:52:44 PM
I recommend Espoma Citrus Tone to fertilize your young mango trees (and most other fruit trees). I've used it for years and my trees have all done well. It's organic and has a good ratio.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Espoma-8-lb-Citrus-Tone-Plant-Food-100047221/202258534 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Espoma-8-lb-Citrus-Tone-Plant-Food-100047221/202258534)


edit: I also wanted to point out that I don't think "inorganic" is the correct term you should be using. "Non-organic" is better suited. Inorganic usually defines something that is not carbon based.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Guanabanus on August 20, 2017, 01:20:59 PM
Good points by Murahilin.

About the first three pictures of this thread, could we please see close-up pictures of the fine print giving the detailed ingredients?
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: palmcity on August 20, 2017, 01:41:53 PM
Once a plant takes up inorganic substances like potassium, calcium, Magnesium, etc. from the soil whether it be from an inorganic source added to the soil or from the death of an organic plant, animal, etc..... The plant that took it up is an organic plant.... If it absorbed the minerals etc....Great... If not adjust the quantity dispensed per time lower or higher, also ph, water, etc. till it does.... If it takes it up ..... I'm quite happy with my organic tree doing so....

My plants would probably take up some of all of the listed fertilizers but not all of the chemicals in any of the fertilizers....I bet my plants would grow just fine on top of a garbage land field with a covering of a few inches of surface soil and the roots growing through the garbage picking up only what they need and leaving the rest if water and adequate ph existed. I would also "probably" be comfortable eating the fruit from any of these trees for my own consumption... (also may need to add calcium, & other minerals to taste good) My plants tell me they take up what they feel they need... I know cause I talk to them... ha   ;) 

So to repeat again.... All may be good.... Just watch & talk to your plants (also check soil ph, NPK, minerals, if equipment is available)....

I noticed Har after I posted.... I'm just being amused with organic vs. inorganic words... He's the knowledgeable expert on probability of success with the products....
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: zands on August 20, 2017, 02:53:19 PM
When I plant a fruit tree I throw one or two bags of HD top soil in the hole and mix it in. This stuff is nice and black.

I would not bother using organic fertilizers. They are generally too expensive. My real concern is getting the soil that my mango tree or any fruit tree is planted in....Transforming that soil into a rich organic soil that is black and full of mycorrhizal bacteria which greatly help roots and root hairs pick up soil nutrients.

My experience shows this can be done with wood chip mulch and 8 3 9/which has those important minor elements. HD and Lowes carry avocado fertilizers that are 6 4 6 with minor elements. This is next best after 8 3 9.

Summary -- 3ft diameter wood chip mulch and sprinkle 8 3 9 on top of mulch and you will get organic soil for your fruit trees to grow in. Give it two years.

Then if you want to go all in you can also do foliar sprays. Anti fungal sprays and nutrient sprays like the easy to find Southern Ag citrus spray found in HD and probably Lowes. Though there are better ones.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: bsbullie on August 20, 2017, 03:07:01 PM
Adding top soil to a hole for trees in Florida is not a good idea (although anyone is free to do what the want).  Also, specifically with respect to mangoes, they do not like black, rich soils.  They love and thrive in well draining the sugar sand that is found in East Palm Beach County (Walter Zill's,  Chris Wentzel/Truly Tropical and Alex/Stuurock Grove).
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: zands on August 20, 2017, 03:19:41 PM
Adding top soil to a hole for trees in Florida is not a good idea (although anyone is free to do what the want).  Also, specifically with respect to mangoes, they do not like black, rich soils.  They love and thrive in well draining the sugar sand that is found in East Palm Beach County (Walter Zill's,  Chris Wentzel/Truly Tropical and Alex/Stuurock Grove).

All I can say is that this has worked for me to achieve mango tree lift-off. To establish a 3 gallon mango tree. I want black soil to start them off and than adding to, increasing the black soil via wood chip mulch and a solid fertilizer w micros like 8 3 9.  I would not do this in a mucky soil. Black is the new black as far as good soils go for fruit trees. At least in my book.

They love and thrive in well draining the sugar sand ......

In PB county you usually have that neutral PH sugar sand. My soil is hi-PH, is sandy, fast draining and calcerous with coral rock in it. So maybe me planting mango and other fruit trees with black, organic looking HD topsoil (in bags) is more necessary to counter act the high-PH soil so that nutrients can be absorbed better
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on August 20, 2017, 06:00:01 PM
You are way over thinking it and far to obsessed with being pure organic.

Thank God I'm not the only one that thinks this way.  You don't know what's in "organics" either unless you submit those rocket fuels to a lab for analysis. 

Recommend Peter's if you're worried about purity.

I use slow release foods too on my trees, tropical and otherwise.  Takes most of the maintenance out of it.   
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Guanabanus on August 20, 2017, 09:01:34 PM
Definitely true, that composts can have just about any kind of pollutant in them. 

Around here (sandy soils paralleling the old US-1 and I-95), locally produced woodchips and composts from wood chips, are rather spiked with Lead, from the old-fashioned leaded gasolines.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: palmcity on August 20, 2017, 11:59:14 PM
Do NOT panic concerning growing mangos ......May as well read over current EPA material concerning LEAD...

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-03/documents/urban_gardening_fina_fact_sheet.pdf (https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-03/documents/urban_gardening_fina_fact_sheet.pdf)


"While gardening, the GREATEST risk of exposure to contaminants is from contaminated
soil getting into your MOUTH or by BREATHING in contaminated dust. For example,
children playing in the garden may directly EAT SOIL through hand-to-mouth play, or
people may eat plants without first washing them to remove soil and dust. SKIN CONTACT
(dermal exposure) with soils containing contaminants such as PAHs, chromium and
trichloroethylene (TCE) can pose health risks."


ONCE washed & Brought in to the TABLE = MINIMUM RISK with ROOT products being higher risk in this minimum risk category::: per EPA:::
"Some edible plants do take up and accumulate contaminants. A plantís uptake of
contaminants depends on many factors, including the type of plant and the pH and
organic content of the soil. However, research shows that there is MINIMAL RISK of
exposure from eating plants grown in contaminated soils. To reduce concerns of
exposure from eating plants, wash produce thoroughly before eating to remove
potential soil contamination. Root vegetables have a higher potential for accumulating
contaminants. In some cases, it may be prudent to avoid growing edible plants in soils
with high contaminant concentrations. "


However, the following is A COMMON HEALTH RISK:::
Touching lead weights etc. with bare hands. If one then puts their fingers in their mouth = more chance of absorption... Tell your kids not to touch lead weights etc... (common when people are going fishing)... https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002473.htm (https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002473.htm)


Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: pineislander on August 21, 2017, 07:43:43 AM
You mean that when I bit those split weights to crimp them on the line that was a bad thing? Used to play with Mercury in bare hands too. Wonder I'm alive and not a dope, well sorta senile at 62........
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: zands on August 21, 2017, 08:25:03 AM
Definitely true, that composts can have just about any kind of pollutant in them. 

Around here (sandy soils paralleling the old US-1 and I-95), locally produced woodchips and composts from wood chips, are rather spiked with Lead, from the old-fashioned leaded gasolines.

Lead gasoline was phased out long ago and the lead that was put out from automobiles has washed downward through our sandy soils and must be washed out to the oceans by now. Even if we were still in the leaded gasoline era, all that wood in the trees acts as a buffer. The lead would lodge in there.
You know better, but I would say that you take the above ground wood and leaves of a mango tree and it must weigh 10-20 times more than the fruit it produces.

You will never find much lead in the mango fruits or other fruits. The tree filters them out and absorbs them.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: palmcity on August 21, 2017, 08:41:59 AM
You mean that when I bit those split weights to crimp them on the line that was a bad thing? Used to play with Mercury in bare hands too. Wonder I'm alive and not a dope, well sorta senile at 62........

Unfortunately, I'm with you in the category that crimped the lead sinker weights on fishing line with my teeth when a kid... I was not warned... They say the risks are higher for problems with nerve development the younger you were when exposed. Maybe we were just lucky with the amounts exposed/absorbed and the response by the body to the exposure... Then again, maybe we just don't know how bad off we really are...

Dive weights commonly stored in the house often have lead and should be secured away from young children.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: sidney on August 21, 2017, 10:38:25 AM
I don't know much about mangos but recently attended a talk by a grower at our club meeting and he recommended using lie nitrogen ratios. The goal is not dark green leaves but high sugar fruit. I am trying his ideas.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: behlgarden on August 21, 2017, 10:54:11 AM
I vote over thinking too. Whatever infinitesimal bad stuff there is in 8-3-9 will never be found in your mangoes. Mulch heavily with wood chips in a three ft diameter. This is your organic faction. Sprinkle 8 3 9 on top of your mulch where to a certain extent it gets chelated into your mulch. Then it all gets into your soil, makes it black, organic, with lots of beneficial micro organisms.

Your mangoes will have a full "organic" taste.

I agree with Both Zands and Rob, if you think about it the chemical fertilizers are also natural occurring from planet earth derived via process, in the end NPK is still going to be NPK regardless of how it was formed. The biggest key is to ensure there is decent mulch which will provide much needed cover, make soil fertile, and fix water issues.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on August 21, 2017, 11:38:38 AM
Salts, 13 essential elements is required for production.  Whether it's derived from organic sources or conventional fertilizers, our plants/trees don't care.  Only humans do who have been brain washed and shaped by crafty marketers into a nation of sucker bets, hypochondriacs and neurotics.

The other elements like silicon can be beneficial to some plants regarding disease resistance..........

Bring on the Round-up.  :D
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: 561MangoFanatic on August 25, 2017, 11:53:18 AM
Good points by Murahilin.

About the first three pictures of this thread, could we please see close-up pictures of the fine print giving the detailed ingredients?

Could not find for the 1st pic.

(https://s30.postimg.cc/v1k6j1wct/IMG_2738.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/v1k6j1wct/)

(https://s30.postimg.cc/4hrlgwvt9/IMG_2728.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/4hrlgwvt9/)

(https://s30.postimg.cc/m937vdb7x/IMG_2729.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/m937vdb7x/)

Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: 561MangoFanatic on August 25, 2017, 01:01:44 PM
I recommend Espoma Citrus Tone to fertilize your young mango trees (and most other fruit trees). I've used it for years and my trees have all done well. It's organic and has a good ratio.

[url]http://www.homedepot.com/p/Espoma-8-lb-Citrus-Tone-Plant-Food-100047221/202258534[/url] ([url]http://www.homedepot.com/p/Espoma-8-lb-Citrus-Tone-Plant-Food-100047221/202258534[/url])


edit: I also wanted to point out that I don't think "inorganic" is the correct term you should be using. "Non-organic" is better suited. Inorganic usually defines something that is not carbon based.


Thank You!!!😁👍 I was looking at that & this also-

(https://s30.postimg.cc/l1tvgwah9/IMG_2730.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/l1tvgwah9/)

(https://s30.postimg.cc/unnfx71n1/IMG_2731.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/unnfx71n1/)
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Guanabanus on August 25, 2017, 03:07:52 PM
The langbeinite and Seaweed extract and that Citrus mix will provide most of what mangos need, except for Manganese, of which you need as much at least as Iron, and except for Calcium.  The 3% Calcium in the Citrus mix is not nearly enough to balance with all the Potassium going on from the three other products--- unless your soil or irrigation water are already rich in Calcium.

Have you had your soil and irrigation water tested?
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: 561MangoFanatic on September 01, 2017, 12:40:08 PM
The langbeinite and Seaweed extract and that Citrus mix will provide most of what mangos need, except for Manganese, of which you need as much at least as Iron, and except for Calcium.  The 3% Calcium in the Citrus mix is not nearly enough to balance with all the Potassium going on from the three other products--- unless your soil or irrigation water are already rich in Calcium.

Have you had your soil and irrigation water tested?

Thank You! & No I need to but unfortunately I'm also growing my trees in containers for the moment as I hope to find them a permanent home.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: VUgearhead on September 01, 2017, 05:22:10 PM
Regarding organic vs. non-organic fertilizers, raises a question.

While the tree may not care whether the nutrients it absorbs is derived from organic or non-organic sources, I grant is moot. What I had always been taught, though, was that non-organic (or 'chemical') fertilizers damaged the soil micro-organism eco-system to the point that organic soil based supplementation was no longer effective. So, you were, in essence, left with a choice of either going 'chemical' for all your plant nutrient requirements, or going the organic path by building the soil (micro-organisme, organic matter as a nutrient base, natural chelating agents to enable nutrient uptake).

Someone tell me if I am wrong here. I have never heard any learned advocate (i.e. research professor) state unequivocally that you could have/do both.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Guanabanus on September 01, 2017, 06:48:44 PM
I suspect that the main "chemical" culprits for killing off beneficial soil organisms, are Ammonia, Urea, and Potassium Chloride (a natural mined substance).

Also fast-release fertilizers can easily be overdone, which can burn plants, and presumably also soil organisms.

Moderate applications of slow-release fertilizers, with little or none of the above ingredients, with the main source of K being Potassium Sulfate, aren't too likely to hurt soil organisms.

"Organic fertilizers" from poop or composts tend to have lots of beneficial micro-organisms, if the bags weren't stored in a hot place.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: spaugh on September 01, 2017, 08:34:24 PM
Urea is an organic molecule.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: pineislander on September 02, 2017, 08:10:12 AM
Definitely true, that composts can have just about any kind of pollutant in them. 

Around here (sandy soils paralleling the old US-1 and I-95), locally produced woodchips and composts from wood chips, are rather spiked with Lead, from the old-fashioned leaded gasolines.

Off topic, but I found a report on chemical composition of typical Florida yard wastes.

http://soils.ifas.ufl.edu/lqma/Center/Report-09.pdf (http://soils.ifas.ufl.edu/lqma/Center/Report-09.pdf)
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 02, 2017, 08:33:24 AM
....What I had always been taught, though, was that non-organic (or 'chemical') fertilizers damaged the soil micro-organism eco-system to the point that organic soil based supplementation was no longer effective.

Not true, another one of those internet myths that just won't die.

Quite the contrary, the use of chemical fertilizers increases microbial populations and their respiration rates.  Carlos, being on the cutting edge of organics, did the test via a lab, like a 5 page analysis of soil samples taken from an orchard that uses both organics AND synthetic fertilizers.  Here's page 3 of 5 as an example.

(https://s26.postimg.cc/bh96m7wph/Carlos_Soil_Test.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bh96m7wph/)

I do the same, combine both for the best of both worlds regarding proper nutrition, lower cost inputs, productivity.

The most over rated and over used macro is P.  I have been using a very low P soluble plant food for decades in ratios like a 5-1-3.  I have also innoculated thousands of farm shade, fruit, nut, grapevines, tropical trees, etc. and acres of commercial Xmas trees with Micro Apply Soluble Maxx, a mycho/bacteria agent. 

Mark
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: edzone9 on September 02, 2017, 08:41:25 AM
You need to research Plant Ormus !
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Guanabanus on September 02, 2017, 10:50:38 PM
Thank you, PineIslander, for the updated, upbeat research paper on contaminants in yard wastes composts.

It shows, on page 37, that the current study's mean concentration, from 12 samples taken in Palm Beach County ("southeast"), of Lead (Pb), was 3.09 mg/kg.
That was a huge improvement over the 2002 Palm Beach study referenced on page 29, for which the result was 60.2.

Also in 2002, I was running a small commercial composting experiment for a resort near US-1 in southeastern Palm Beach County, which showed similarly high levels of Lead.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 03, 2017, 09:30:00 AM
Thank you, PineIslander, for the updated, upbeat research paper on contaminants in yard wastes composts.

It shows, on page 37, that the current study's mean concentration, from 12 samples taken in Palm Beach County ("southeast"), of Lead (Pb), was 3.09 mg/kg.
That was a huge improvement over the 2002 Palm Beach study referenced on page 29, for which the result was 60.2.

Also in 2002, I was running a small commercial composting experiment for a resort near US-1 in southeastern Palm Beach County, which showed similarly high levels of Lead.

As opposed to pure salts like Peters' foods, you really don't know what's in organics.  I have read lab analysis from NW universities who test all kinds of products and many times the organic foods and compost come back tainted.  Some manures are still positive for broadleaf herbicides like picloram which is passed thru a horse and even after brewing in a compost pile for a while will burn sensitive plants like tomatoes and peppers.

Quite ironical really.  Folks are driven into this "organic", "natural" cult by feelings and the ideology they choose to believe.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 03, 2017, 09:50:26 AM
Definitely true, that composts can have just about any kind of pollutant in them. 

Around here (sandy soils paralleling the old US-1 and I-95), locally produced woodchips and composts from wood chips, are rather spiked with Lead, from the old-fashioned leaded gasolines.

Off topic, but I found a report on chemical composition of typical Florida yard wastes.

[url]http://soils.ifas.ufl.edu/lqma/Center/Report-09.pdf[/url] ([url]http://soils.ifas.ufl.edu/lqma/Center/Report-09.pdf[/url])


Wow, you Florida peeps are NASTY!  ;D  Seriously, that's some scary findings.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: greenman62 on September 03, 2017, 05:13:46 PM
i agree with Zands
The best way is to get the soil right.
a good compost, woody mulch and leaf mulch are the best ways.
i use fish emulsion to stimulate the microbes.

Yes chemicals do hurt the soil.
no one fertilizes the forest, and it does quite well on its own.
lots of work has been done in soil science in the last few years.

ive been using legumes as nitrogen fixers
since most dry nitrogen (organic or not) will wash through very fast.

this might help...
Farm Profits in Root Depth (No Fertilisers Required)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHckFprozDc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHckFprozDc)

Elaine Ingham discusses the different forms of nitrogen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyMQBDvXKx0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyMQBDvXKx0)

Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: VUgearhead on September 03, 2017, 05:43:30 PM
Mark,

This isn't a recent 'internet myth'. This has been a prevalent warning from the organic constituents since the late 70's, early 80's. That's when I read about it in Rodale Press's Organic Gardening magazine..... back when it was digest sized.

Now, how many of you can remember that?
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 04, 2017, 10:17:14 AM
Mark,

This isn't a recent 'internet myth'. This has been a prevalent warning from the organic constituents since the late 70's, early 80's. That's when I read about it in ..... back when it was digest sized.

Now, how many of you can remember that?

How many can read a simple chart?  ;D  Rodale Press's Organic Gardening magazine?  Give me a break.  ::)  You cherry picked from a magazine that has a one sided agenda.  Par for the course. 

I gave you scientific evidence that proves the opposite, a real world study on 3 soil samples.  Contact Carlos aka CTMIAMI if you don't believe me.  He sent me the entire lab analysis with soil samples taken from an orchard that is nourished with synthetic fertilizers.  By the same token, it's rich in organics too which the microbial populations and their respiration rates and N output reflects.  Look at the first graft. The 4.05 rating is in the USUALLY HIGH SOIL MICROBIAL ACTIVITY area.

How about 4.45 (high microbiological activity) for soil sample 50-5-10?  "SOIL HAVE VERY HIGH LEVEL OF MICROBIAL ACTIVITY."

(https://s26.postimg.cc/jwsevk3f9/Carlos_Soil_Test_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jwsevk3f9/)

DeNial is not a river in Egypt.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: druss on September 05, 2017, 06:27:01 PM
Hi Mark do you have the whole writeup? Im interested to read it.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: WGphil on September 06, 2017, 07:20:39 AM
I grow organic in that no herbicides , insecticides, or vermacides are used to protect my soil


I will use fertilizer like 839 but with sandy soil and lots of rain it washes through so I give it a little more often to get nutrients to the plants instead of the drinking water

I walk out and snack as I go without reading a label first

Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 06, 2017, 10:05:36 AM
Hi Mark do you have the whole writeup? Im interested to read it.

No, only the grafts that I got from Carlos who did the study.  He's always on the cutting edge of dispelling theories and myths and just wanted to put this issue to rest once and for all.   
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: greenman62 on September 06, 2017, 01:09:50 PM
I gave you scientific evidence that proves the opposite, a real world study on 3 soil samples.  Contact Carlos aka CTMIAMI if you don't believe me.  He sent me the entire lab analysis with soil samples taken from an orchard that is nourished with synthetic fertilizers.

sorry, some guys lab results is not science.

Rodale is one of the leading soil science company for many years
They are very well respected.
and they are... science.

Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 07, 2017, 09:34:07 AM
sorry, some guys lab results is not science.

Ya think?  That's ridiculous.   I'm sure Carlos would deliberately choose and pay some pot shot, partisan lab to do his tests.  ::)

Tell ya what, how 'bout you call 'em up, or visit in person - Denele Analytical, Inc. Environmental and Agricultural Analysts and tell them their full of shit.  ;D  (209) 634-9055
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: greenman62 on September 08, 2017, 08:52:55 AM
sorry, some guys lab results is not science.

Ya think?  That's ridiculous.   I'm sure Carlos would deliberately choose and pay some pot shot, partisan lab to do his tests.  ::)

Tell ya what, how 'bout you call 'em up, or visit in person - Denele Analytical, Inc. Environmental and Agricultural Analysts and tell them their full of shit.  ;D  (209) 634-9055

i didnt questions lab results.
i also didnt question intention or ethics.

all i see is a snapshot.
there is no before and after, no timeline
no CONTROL PLOT.

what was the starting density ?
what was the moisture content before and after
(did it just rain? - what was the PH of any moisture input ? N content ?)
temperature ?
did someone add compost a week before, and its just breaking down during the test ?

by "microbial activity" it could mean that the chemicals
killed all the good biology, and there is an explosion of root-not nematodes and anaerobic microbes
eating up all the dead microbes.
or...
Maybe this works for 1 week, then it all goes to hell ?

this is off the top of my head
there are im sure a dozen more parameters which would need to be taken into account
before anything remotely called science can be attached to 1 number.
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 08, 2017, 09:45:20 AM
i didnt questions lab results.
i also didnt question intention or ethics.

all i see is a snapshot.
there is no before and after, no timeline
no CONTROL PLOT.

what was the starting density ?
what was the moisture content before and after
(did it just rain? - what was the PH of any moisture input ? N content ?)
temperature ?
did someone add compost a week before, and its just breaking down during the test ?

by "microbial activity" it could mean that the chemicals
killed all the good biology, and there is an explosion of root-not nematodes and anaerobic microbes
eating up all the dead microbes.
or...
Maybe this works for 1 week, then it all goes to hell ?

this is off the top of my head
there are im sure a dozen more parameters which would need to be taken into account
before anything remotely called science can be attached to 1 number.

Now's not the time but if you're really interested message Carlos.  He has an avocado orchard in Homestead.  It's my understanding  that he started with a rather poor soil profile, built it up with amendments including compost, added bio products some which he brews himself like EM1 and used plenty of synthetic fertilizers over the years to increase production.  Like me, he is a hybrid grower which means if he needs to spray with pesticides and such, he will.  We know what we're doing based on experience and education.

You're overthinking this and/or don't want to believe something contrary to the same ol organic purist mantras, the "what ifs" and doom and gloom crap gleaned off big City, anti-Monsanto, non-GMO doom and gloom, "come enjoin Acme and Associates attorneys in a class action suit".... fake news sites.

BTW, you profess indulging in green manure crops, legumes.
Quote
ive been using legumes as nitrogen fixers
since most dry nitrogen (organic or not) will wash through very fast.
Ever planted any?  I have, 3 successive years on about 14 acres.  Cost me $1,000's in contract labor and seeds.  Crops were elbon rye for the humus and hairy vetch and Madrid yellow sweet clover for the humus, N fixing and some of the best choices to act as a biological soil plow in my newly bought but over farmed farm acreage.  Here's a pic or two.

(https://s26.postimg.cc/k761ddnpx/Rye-_House.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/k761ddnpx/)

(https://s26.postimg.cc/9fd2c0xn9/Snoballlin_Rye.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9fd2c0xn9/)
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 08, 2017, 09:54:17 AM
...
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Guanabanus on September 13, 2017, 10:52:36 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: Mango tree fertilizer
Post by: Mark in Texas on September 20, 2017, 10:25:56 AM
Nice!

Thanks!  Planting green manure crops specifically selected for your area and soil and laying off the high P foods really helps your plant material.  Going only on blind faith and an ad, I also innoculated thousands of trees, grapevines, berries, etc. with MycoApply Soluble Maxx at the time of planting.  For instance, when planting grapevines which come in bound bundles of 25 I'd mix in about 2 tsp. of the mychorrzial stuff into about 2 gals. of water, 5 gal. paint type bucket.  Drop the bundles of vines in and then plant in already prepared holes.

Like I said, I wanted to break up hard pan and a nasty heavy clay loam so I spent months researching those crops that would act as "biological soil plows".  Those would be clover, lupines, turnips or other invasive root crops like daikon radishes.