Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: spaugh on November 21, 2017, 04:36:53 PM

Title: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 21, 2017, 04:36:53 PM
Anyone made one of these?  I am making one and have a few questions for those with experience using 6mil UV poly on a greenhouse type structure.  Specifically I am trying to determine the best method of attaching the poly to the end rails and also trying to decide if the galvanized hoops need to be painted white to reduce heat?  Also do the perlin clamps need something on them to keep the poly from rubbing on them or just go ahead and lay it right on top of the hoops and perlin clamps?
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 21, 2017, 04:43:39 PM
Heres the current state of the project.  The door is going up and then it will be time to cover it.  There is no rush since its 95F here today.  Just trying to take my time and do it right the first time.

We do not get frost here but we do get into the mid 30s a few nights a year and also have extreme heat and low humidity in summer.  The HH is equiped with a fan that can replace the air every minute and I am thinking aluminite shade will go over the outside during summer to regulate temps.  The goal is to provide a more moderate environmwnt for my young potted plants and a for fun plants like coffee etc.  Warmer and dryer in winter and cooler more humid in summer.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4582/37681007045_47836a5270_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 22, 2017, 09:51:21 AM
Looking amazing!  FarmTek, Greenhouse MegaStore and others will have the connectors you need.  You WILL need wet pads/fans in the summer if you keep the poly. I recommend white shade cloth and permanent end walls of polycarbonate.   

Metal gets hot as hell, reason why I painted my steel purlins and outside of the polycarbonate white. Still gets hot.

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: nattyfroootz on November 22, 2017, 10:57:51 AM
I am in the same exact place on my hoop house.  The poly latch wire and latch channel is the best way to go from what my research has told me.  I'm about to do the framing and installation of my fans. Is there any reason you decided to go with one fan instead of two on the intake?
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 22, 2017, 11:41:46 AM
Thanks Mark, I will have to look into the wet pad.  Never heard of it then googled it.  Looks like a swamp cooler type evap deal.  I was hoping to get away with misters or something low cost but will tackle that when the time comes. 

Nattyfrooootz, I have a 24" fan (iliving fan off amazon) for exhaust and a 36" farmtek shutter on the intake side.  Hopefully the fan will open the shutters automatically.  If not, I will get a motor for the shutters.

You can use multiple fans and or intakes.  Doesnt really matter.  I think you want to go larger on the intake side.  I thought about 2 x 24" intakes for symetry.  The problem is if that costs more and if they need motors its double cost again. 

I ordered wiggle wire rails from farmtek.  375$ worth !  Ouch!  I am trying to do this on the cheap but its already like a 2000$ project.  Probably 3 grand by the time Im done.  Im going to run a 30 amp power line to it and put outlets etc in it so I can run heaters or grow lamps etc.  Probably put a radio and whatever else in there and go live in there when my wife wants to get rid of me.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: waxy on November 22, 2017, 12:40:53 PM
Anyone made one of these?  I am making one and have a few questions for those with experience using 6mil UV poly on a greenhouse type structure.  Specifically I am trying to determine the best method of attaching the poly to the end rails and also trying to decide if the galvanized hoops need to be painted white to reduce heat?  Also do the perlin clamps need something on them to keep the poly from rubbing on them or just go ahead and lay it right on top of the hoops and perlin clamps?

1. 6mil poly will resist the abuse between the 1" galvanized hoops vs 40mph winds and 100F Heat.
2. I recommend PVC coated wiggle wire and a deep spring lock base, to overlap an additional layer of poly or shade cloth.
3. Sounds like a PITA but paint the galvanized pipes white, the heat coming from it against the poly is direct vs coating dissipation.
4. Just use the wiggle wire and strap the poly as tight as possible, it's VERY durable, mine has been up for 4+ years in 9b and during the storm of the century this year (Flooding and high winds)

The wiggle wire will be a very simple application for you, drill, bolt on the wood base and slap over the poly and you're set.
I use the deep base lock so that I can add another layer of poly during winter for insulation, shade cloth during spring - early fall.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 22, 2017, 01:24:15 PM
I ordered wiggle wire channels from farmtek and they only had one size.  I looked at GH megastore and almost went with the deep stuff for end hoops but decided I like the farmtek stuff better and am assuming it can hold 2 plys.  It says good to 20mil.

White paint is a pita but I think you guys are right, it is worth the effort. 

I will not be doing double poly but I am thinking the end wall poly and top poly will have to double on the end hoops.  Is that how you did it?  Poly on end walls?  Do you use the same rail to hold the end wall and top poly on the end hoops?  That part is not clear to me how people are connecting the end wall poly.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: waxy on November 22, 2017, 01:59:28 PM
I ordered wiggle wire channels from farmtek and they only had one size.  I looked at GH megastore and almost went with the deep stuff for end hoops but decided I like the farmtek stuff better and am assuming it can hold 2 plys.  It says good to 20mil.

White paint is a pita but I think you guys are right, it is worth the effort. 

I will not be doing double poly but I am thinking the end wall poly and top poly will have to double on the end hoops.  Is that how you did it?  Poly on end walls?  Do you use the same rail to hold the end wall and top poly on the end hoops?  That part is not clear to me how people are connecting the end wall poly.

I'm not sure if I understand your question but I'll try my best.

On each end, what you can do is slightly bend the spring lock base (SLB) to an arch, in tandem with the 2 ends.
With the deep SLB you can wiggle wire the sides on first, then the ends.

That way, when it's really warm out you can remove the ends.
Allowing it the air ventilation needed, then cover when it's snowing :)

The standard SLB will hold 2x 6mil poly and 2x WW very tightly.
The deep SLB will double that, with room to spare.

My greenhouse isn't a hoop, it's a 20x20 barn shape roof with vents.
I seal mine up just to fog with Horticulture/Neem/Orange oil for the annoying pests.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 22, 2017, 02:05:39 PM
So the end walls are going to be poly.  And so is the top.  I have 3 pieces of poly.  1 for each end wall and 1 for the length of the tunnel.  I will bend and screw the rail onto the two end rails.

What I want to know is do people attach the side poly piece into the same rail as the top sheet on the end hoop.  From all the documents and videos I have seen, no one really shows how they attach the end wall poly to the hoop.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: nattyfroootz on November 22, 2017, 03:24:45 PM
I'm going to be doing the same set up. Poly on both end walls and on the top. I am planning on putting my end wall poly on and then attaching the top sheet using a second piece of wiggle wire or the same one if I dont have space. It will be a double sheet of poly on the end wall connection. 

I am using the Johnnyseeds hoop bender set up and they have an instructional booklet, https://www.johnnyseeds.com/growers-library/tools-supplies/9018-quickhoops-high-tunnel-bender-instruction-manual.html (https://www.johnnyseeds.com/growers-library/tools-supplies/9018-quickhoops-high-tunnel-bender-instruction-manual.html)

Page 35 might be able to provide a little more info for you if you haven't seen this yet.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 22, 2017, 03:38:12 PM
Thanks!  You guys should post photos of your setups. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 22, 2017, 04:51:45 PM
Probably put a radio and whatever else in there and go live in there when my wife wants to get rid of me.

You too can become an honored member of the Fraternal Bros of Man Caves.  Membership comes with the requirement that you successfully smash a Lemon Zest between your hairy thighs.

Rules:

(https://s7.postimg.cc/oc5ux65zb/Man_Cave_Rules.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/oc5ux65zb/)

Prozit!

(https://s7.postimg.cc/pr7flvc7b/Markwith_Beerin_Greenhouse032015_resized.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/pr7flvc7b/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: waxy on November 22, 2017, 06:26:27 PM
I just cut excess poly on mine, which isn't much.
Both the ends and sides share the same deep SLB, since yours is a hoop then cut to shape.
That way it fits more snug without slack like it's being pulled and rolled up like toilet paper.
In addition to that, it does ruin the visibility of the sides if you're from the outside looking in, vice versa.

My setup is a bit automated, everything is digitally managed with a controller I installed.
I programmed several outlets to do the following:

- Exchange Fan (if x then x fallback off end)
- Ball valve propane feed
- Electric fan forced heater
- Mist system when humidity is below 30%
- Fogger on (if temp1 >55F switch on)
- Dehumidifier on when 90%
- Emergency shut down due to moisture
- CO2 >1800 PPM cycle Exchange fan

Wind and pressure notifications when it reaches 20mph so I can remember double check the logistics of the greenhouse.
Many cool things to do to adjust and control the environment.

Been working well since my rambutan, mangosteens and langsats are doing ok so far...
I'm an analytics kind of guy so looking at the graphs and such does help predict and anticipate adjustments to the microclimate.
I suppose it may be a bit redundant but when is it every enough? :D
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 23, 2017, 09:26:26 AM
I just cut excess poly on mine, which isn't much.
Both the ends and sides share the same deep SLB, since yours is a hoop then cut to shape.
That way it fits more snug without slack like it's being pulled and rolled up like toilet paper.
In addition to that, it does ruin the visibility of the sides if you're from the outside looking in, vice versa.

My setup is a bit automated, everything is digitally managed with a controller I installed.
I programmed several outlets to do the following:

- Exchange Fan (if x then x fallback off end)
- Ball valve propane feed
- Electric fan forced heater
- Mist system when humidity is below 30%
- Fogger on (if temp1 >55F switch on)
- Dehumidifier on when 90%
- Emergency shut down due to moisture
- CO2 >1800 PPM cycle Exchange fan

Wind and pressure notifications when it reaches 20mph so I can remember double check the logistics of the greenhouse.
Many cool things to do to adjust and control the environment.

Been working well since my rambutan, mangosteens and langsats are doing ok so far...
I'm an analytics kind of guy so looking at the graphs and such does help predict and anticipate adjustments to the microclimate.
I suppose it may be a bit redundant but when is it every enough? :D

Very nice high tech!  What mist system and fogger do you use, high pressure or low?  Am really getting sick of the two swamp coolers.  Maintenance much less efficiency is the pits.

Automation is the only way to go.  I have a iLink 800 controller, 8 cooling set points, 2 heating operating 2 very large vents operated by 1 HP Locke motors.  Reznor propane heater.  The open vents allow hundreds of pollinators to come and go in the spring.

I did a lean to in another city and the aspen pads cinched up in 3' W hardware cloth, fed by a cheap pond/fish pump really did a nice job.  The pads were made by laying out a 12' long piece, clipping wires here and there to act as pins when closed over the pads.  A 6' pad was laid on and the cloth was folded in half to make a 3' X 6' pad.  It was positioned left of a the entry door which was in the center.  Gutter, PVC drilled out over the top, etc.  High speed fan was on the other side of the greenhouse at the peak.  Grew and flowered the hell  outta orchids, ferns 6' across, etc.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 28, 2017, 12:31:57 AM
Got my door hung and started mounting the wiggle wire.  Should be ready to put plastic on just in time for our mild winter.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4540/37974955184_a3fef355a1_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 28, 2017, 09:03:13 AM
That is looking suhhhhhhweeet.  Is that redwood framing?  You could easily install very efficient DIY vertical wet pads each side of the door.

If I had to do it all over again and wanted to produce fruit hortizonally rather than vertically I'd learn and do the japanese way for mangos, avocados, cherimoyas, etc.   My greenhouse columns are 10' with a roof peak at 18'.  Wish they were 8' to cut down on heating costs and maintenance.
Check out page 22 and on.   http://www.hawaiitropicalfruitgrowers.org/conferences/2016/2016_JohnYoshimiYonemoto_PruningforAvocadoandMangoProduction.pdf (http://www.hawaiitropicalfruitgrowers.org/conferences/2016/2016_JohnYoshimiYonemoto_PruningforAvocadoandMangoProduction.pdf)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 28, 2017, 11:02:57 AM
Thanks Mark, its pressure treated lumber.  I will certainly be looking into the wed pads.  Is that something you can rig up easily or is it better to buy a premade system?  I have banana plants just outside the HH so I could just dump runoff on them.  I don't necessarily need to recirculate the water.  But I have not looked into those systems at all yet.  I will check out your link this morning.  For the hoop house I am just going to be propogating trees and growing a few small container plants.  The peak is 8ft tall.  I am going to start propogating mango and avocado trees to plant out my property with.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 28, 2017, 11:44:12 AM
By the way Mark, is the floor of your GH dirt?  I was thinking of making my own 18 or 24" pavers and doing a floor out of those.  But not sure.  I figure a dirt floor will always be a mess otherwise.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: ScottR on November 28, 2017, 12:20:48 PM
spaugh, don't leave your G.H. floor dirt you'll fight weeds and moss constantly! ;)I know I just put in a floor covering in mine after 30 yrs' tired of pulling weeds! Some of the big G.H. suppliers have coverings that you can buy by foot in different widths. The one I bought was white to reflect sun rays to underneath plants but it's not permeable the only down side I would make sure that the covering is permeable. Your G.H. is looking good nice job!
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: simon_grow on November 28, 2017, 12:36:20 PM
Spaugh, your hoop house is looking awesome! Youíre going to be able to fit a lot of plants in there. Your yard also has some of the healthiest trees Iíve ever seen, especially considering their age.

Simon
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 28, 2017, 12:45:39 PM
spaugh, don't leave your G.H. floor dirt you'll fight weeds and moss constantly! ;)I know I just put in a floor covering in mine after 30 yrs' tired of pulling weeds! Some of the big G.H. suppliers have coverings that you can buy by foot in different widths. The one I bought was white to reflect sun rays to underneath plants but it's not permeable the only down side I would make sure that the covering is permeable. Your G.H. is looking good nice job!

Thanks, yeah Simon had mentioned the weed problem also.  Im thinking DIY pavers.  Its a ton of work but I have access to recycled concrete.  I just buy 90lb bags of portland cement and mix the crushed concrete 5:1.  All the footings on the HH were done using recycled concrete.  I think I spent around 25$ total to anchor 30 posts and the door footer. 

Im thinking 8x4' plywood sheet with 2x2" strips to form 8 two foot square pavers at a time. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: waxy on November 28, 2017, 01:50:07 PM
I used 5-6" of mulch for my greenhouse.
Weeds never seem to be a problem.
They're more of a problem in the containers than the ground itself.
I do soak the mulch with orange/neem oil to deter any pests they enjoy hiding in the mulch.
Don't use dirt, it's terrible in my experience, dusty and overall mess to deal with when moving potted plants or routine maintenance.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: waxy on November 28, 2017, 01:50:52 PM
That is looking suhhhhhhweeet.  Is that redwood framing?  You could easily install very efficient DIY vertical wet pads each side of the door.

If I had to do it all over again and wanted to produce fruit hortizonally rather than vertically I'd learn and do the japanese way for mangos, avocados, cherimoyas, etc.   My greenhouse columns are 10' with a roof peak at 18'.  Wish they were 8' to cut down on heating costs and maintenance.
Check out page 22 and on.   [url]http://www.hawaiitropicalfruitgrowers.org/conferences/2016/2016_JohnYoshimiYonemoto_PruningforAvocadoandMangoProduction.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.hawaiitropicalfruitgrowers.org/conferences/2016/2016_JohnYoshimiYonemoto_PruningforAvocadoandMangoProduction.pdf[/url])


Hot damn, that was like porn unfolding all the centerfolds.
Thanks for the awesome reference!
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: ScottR on November 28, 2017, 07:10:40 PM
OK spaugh can't wait to see end product!!keep up the great work and good luck!Keep us posted 8)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: ThangBom321 on November 29, 2017, 08:02:12 AM
This is so cool. I plan to build one for my parents next year. I want to grow a jackfruit trees, mangoes, avocados and other tropical fruits. Thurs is so educational.

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: simon_grow on November 29, 2017, 10:55:39 PM
If I had a large heated greenhouse or hoophouse, I would love to try fruiting Rambutan, Pulasan and maybe even Mangosteen just for fun. Your hoop house is coming along nicely Spaugh, please keep us updated!

Simon
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 30, 2017, 10:37:55 AM
By the way Mark, is the floor of your GH dirt?  I was thinking of making my own 18 or 24" pavers and doing a floor out of those.  But not sure.  I figure a dirt floor will always be a mess otherwise.

Am on my 3rd greenhouse and yes this one is dirt.  It's alot easier to rake leaves on dirt than on rock and as you know those trees will dump leaves all year long and lots of them.  I keep a qt. sprayer bottle handy with diluted glyphosate herbicide in it for very infrequent spot weed control.  I also have tomatoes crawling on the floor, some volunteer, one now that I planted next to a mango pot so it gets auto watered with the mango.  I can get maters 8 mos. out of the year.   Other greenhouses had a 24" walkway down the middle using cheap big box store 8X16" gray cinderblock type pavers (8 + 16 = 24") and pea gravel under the benches.  My dirt is a clay loam which can be like quick sand when wet.  I put on my old choos and make sure to keep the watering hose on the pots and not flood my floor.

The wet pad can be made by taking a 3'W roll of galvanized hardware cloth and doubling the height (length) you'll need.  You'll lay it on the ground and lay the piece of aspen pad on one end and then fold it over.  To secure the aspen I cut spikes, about 20 of them so that when you close the piece the spikes will pierce the fiber and hold it in place.  Heavy duty wire cutters will do.  Just cut and turn in 90* on a random basis. Make the finished unit overlap the framing sides about an inch so there are no air gaps, leaks around the pad.  Hang on nails at the top or anyway it's convenient.  Attach a closed gutter trough on the bottom below the pads to catch the dripping water.  Using a cheap pond pump to recycle the water, run a flexible tube from the pump which is sitting at one end of the gutter trough to a holy 3/4" PVC pipe above the pads, end being closed. Use a 1/8" bit, holes spaced about every inch or so.   It's cheap, very effective.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 30, 2017, 02:22:55 PM
Thanks Mark, I think the wet pad will be an easy bolt up deal.  Will install it on the same thermostat as the fan and shutters.  My only issue will be the shutter motor may be in the way.  Will have to figure that out. 

So I got the wiggle wire rail on the base boards and end hoops and am installing a 28x48ft piece of 6mil UV poly today.   The hoop house footpri t is 16x44'.  Have a few friends coming to help.  Will be installing the end wall plastic next then it will be usable.  I can switch to a hard plastic end wall covering later if needed.  For now I am trying to save $.

Here is a greenhouse megastore deep channel on the end hoops and farmtek channel on the base boards.  I figure I can throw another rail on the base board if needed for shade.  Although I think both products are deep enough to carry 6mil poly and shade cloth with 2 wiggle wires.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4546/38029799024_24b92835ae_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4565/26970169989_66995c6f52_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 30, 2017, 07:40:57 PM
Top poly went on well.  Had my neighbor and a couple other helpers come over.  End walls will be done in a day or 2.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4559/26977494369_b8da940653_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4519/24880314618_bb39282986_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4539/26977761909_ae549dbaa7_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: nattyfroootz on November 30, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Awesome! I am hopefully going to be getting my poly on saturday with two of my friends haha. Any reason you decided to do top before endwalls? Are you gonna lay extra wire on top of the existing wire? And if so does it look like there will be room on the greenhouse megastore latch channel? I actually bought the channel form GHmegastore and farmtek also haha.  I'll post pictures when I get to my greenhouse tomorrow
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on November 30, 2017, 08:49:13 PM
I did the top first because I may need to modify the end walls later so it will be easier to leave the top alone if its on bottom I figure.  Yes I put GHMegastore deep channel on the end rails and farmtek on bottom.  I think I like the farmtek better.  Its just about as deep but the wire is thinner.  Either will hold 2 rails.  Maybe 3.  The farmtek rail is tapered without a bottom demple thing too so the wire fits in easier.  The GHMega stuff has to be crammed into the bottom of the rail. 

If I was starting over I would put 2 hoops at each end and run farm tek double rail on the end hoops and baseboard.  Then you could run 2 layers and shade easily.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: nattyfroootz on December 01, 2017, 07:30:20 PM
I did the top first because I may need to modify the end walls later so it will be easier to leave the top alone if its on bottom I figure.  Yes I put GHMegastore deep channel on the end rails and farmtek on bottom.  I think I like the farmtek better.  Its just about as deep but the wire is thinner.  Either will hold 2 rails.  Maybe 3.  The farmtek rail is tapered without a bottom demple thing too so the wire fits in easier.  The GHMega stuff has to be crammed into the bottom of the rail. 

If I was starting over I would put 2 hoops at each end and run farm tek double rail on the end hoops and baseboard.  Then you could run 2 layers and shade easily.

I see, I purchased the regular channel from GH megastore and was a little worried it wouldnt fit two wires and two layers of poly but I did a little test today and it looks like it should be all good.
Here's where I am right now, 12'x20' sitting on a ton of top soil for the first time in my life. Very stoked to plant in the ground. 

(https://s17.postimg.cc/3wz1zxp57/IMG_20171201_153419.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3wz1zxp57/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 01, 2017, 07:59:30 PM
Great I love it.  Looks like you are doing roll up sides maybe?

I was going to do that but we have a lot of rodents and rattle snakes that go after them.  Trying to keep mine well sealed so the critters dont get in.  I have to always be on the lookout for rattle snakes here.  Almost stepped on many.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on December 02, 2017, 08:28:31 AM
Looks awesome.   Your comment about rattlesnakes is interesting. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 03, 2017, 04:17:05 PM
Got the plastic all tacked on today.  Its cooking in the HH, was around 90F in there and its in the high 70s outside.  Need to get power to this thing and do something with the floor and its good to go.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4556/38815354351_e085329433_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: boxturtle on December 11, 2017, 01:05:02 PM
how did it withstand the winds?
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 11, 2017, 01:18:38 PM
No problems with the wind.  We are on top of a mountain and get severe winds.  All the plants inside were spared from the wind.  Everything outside is looking parched. Which is nice because now I know there is no worries with wind and the HH.  Its quite sturdy. 

I have the fan and shutters on a thermostat and am keeping it in the 90s during the days.  It dips down at night so a heat source may be in the future.  Cool thing is all the mango plants in there that were stalled out for winter are now flushing again.  Will post some more photos soon.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 11, 2017, 03:34:42 PM
by the way, the hoops are all concreted into the ground.  The hoops are 1-3/8" top rail bent with a bender.  And there are 1-5/8" pipes concreted into the ground sticking up for the hoops to screw into. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on December 12, 2017, 09:03:35 AM
Looks great.  My floor is raw clay loam dirt.  Makes raking a lot easier than dealing with leaves that get stuck in rock and such.  Solid floor would solve that.  My elves recently raked and bagged up about 30# of leaves for my veggie garden.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: boxturtle on December 12, 2017, 12:34:58 PM
would the fans still do anything if it's 105 outside? 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 12, 2017, 01:29:38 PM
There will be a 50% shade over it and an evaporative cooler sitting in front of the air intake during summer.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on December 13, 2017, 08:27:49 AM
There will be a 50% shade over it and an evaporative cooler sitting in front of the air intake during summer.

Someone's gonna be doing some tweeks!  Been there, done that.  I have 2 5,000CFM swamp coolers and they are marginal even at a RH of 25*.  Pad area is just too small.  Am considering a high pressure flash system as the coolers are worthless and a bitch to maintain - float valves screw up, salts build up in the pads.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 13, 2017, 11:03:20 AM
What is the volume of your GH Mark?  Mine is about 4000CF.  I have room for 18sq ft of wed pad and a 4000CFM fan already. I may go with a fog system but they cost $$$.

The thing is here its super dry.  Its literally been 1% humidity all week.  Its pretty much bone dry all the time when I would need a cooler running.  Since I am surround by several miles of native vegetation in all directions there is just no moisture in the air.  The guys living in town don't get as dry as here with all of the landscaping and irrigation going on there.

Its so dry here even a low pressure mist system may be enough to really drop the temps quick. 

I am planning on getting a 150 gal per day RO system too so I have pure water to use on the plants.  I could always go bigger with that and use some RO for cooling also if it helps keep things clean.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on December 14, 2017, 09:36:41 AM
What is the volume of your GH Mark?  Mine is about 4000CF.  I have room for 18sq ft of wed pad and a 4000CFM fan already. I may go with a fog system but they cost $$$.

The thing is here its super dry.  Its literally been 1% humidity all week.  Its pretty much bone dry all the time when I would need a cooler running.  Since I am surround by several miles of native vegetation in all directions there is just no moisture in the air.  The guys living in town don't get as dry as here with all of the landscaping and irrigation going on there.

Its so dry here even a low pressure mist system may be enough to really drop the temps quick. 

I am planning on getting a 150 gal per day RO system too so I have pure water to use on the plants.  I could always go bigger with that and use some RO for cooling also if it helps keep things clean.


My greenhouse is 31 X 37 X 18 peak, or about 16,000 Cu. Ft.

Spent a lot of time researching R/O and pressure nozzle systems.   Everything has some frickin' caveat. For example, due to my water quality I need a salt water conditioner before the R/O unit or you'll have a lot of wear and tear and maintenance changing out membranes.  R/O technology was founded on purifying salt water.  Then there's the tank.  There's a cheap, self contained 96 gal. R/O system, float valve, the whole enchilada that I looked into for whole house R/O.    You will definately need the RH so any kind of water cooling system would be great.  I can see it now, based on the single digit RH the internal temp of your greenhouse will be 40F.   Am a bit shocked you're able to grow much of anything under those RH numbers.

Here's a few links out of dozens collected.

http://www.raindancewatersystems.com/whole-house-reverse-osmosis.html (http://www.raindancewatersystems.com/whole-house-reverse-osmosis.html)

https://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/ (https://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/)

Template Assisted Crystallization, TAC.  Saw one of these in action feeding an outdoors patio flash system at an Austin restaurant.  It was amazing.  No white dusting of the tropical trees and plants.  Austin water is limestone based and rock hard.
https://www.purewaterproducts.com/articles/template-assisted-crystallization (https://www.purewaterproducts.com/articles/template-assisted-crystallization)

Misting

https://www.advancedmistingsystems.com/misting-pumps/ (https://www.advancedmistingsystems.com/misting-pumps/)

http://www.mistingdirect.com/ (http://www.mistingdirect.com/)

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 14, 2017, 10:13:56 AM
Thanks for all the links Mark.

Yes it is exceptionally dry right now.  Has not rained in 9 months.  I am surprised things are growing too.  All my plants are looking so much happier already inside the hoop house.  I had about 100 potted plants outside that are now inside.  I go out there and just hose it down inside and it keeps the RH around 30% inside the HH.  Do you have a preferred temperature and humidity that you can suggest Mark?  I asked Simon and he thought 90F and 50% was good but he wasnt really sure.  Since its so dry, its not hard to adjust the RH to where it needs to be.  And keeping the HH around 90 seems to work well also.  The fan runs on medium about half the time.

 Besides fruit trees, we also use a lot of cactus and succulents in our landscaping.  You can see why.

For the fruit trees, mulch mulch mulch, water water water....

Heres our water tank and power system
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4546/39043279761_d730c63441_b.jpg)

Happy plants
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4521/25185873128_ef5c49c18b_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on December 15, 2017, 10:08:06 AM
I'd say the RH and temps is whatever is indigeous to their natural environment.  Before I embark on an kind of plant material I find out how and where they grow and try to duplicate it.  Based on your production it's pretty nice that they adjust well.

Beauty of a water/solar system!   Pumping treated water into the tank and then out as needed is fine.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 19, 2017, 11:18:41 PM
Mark, hoop house plants are growing awesome.  Only issue right now is keeping humidity up.  I am able to keep the temps around 90+ no problem even in December.  As soon as the exhaust fan kicks on to cool it, the humidity goes super low.  I ordered misting nozzles and fittings and hose from advanced mistings.  They are pretty close to my location.  Going to plumb it all up then order a 1000psi pump in a few weeks.  Should have the cooling humidity system online in January.  Can't wait, plants are looking so good its amazing how fast they have responded.

I also got the 150gal RO system hooked up and a couple of 30 gal drums on float valves hooked to RO system.  One is pure RO and the other I am going to  mix fish fertilizer or dyna grow in.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4686/39143590912_3939e7a8f2_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on December 20, 2017, 09:43:15 AM
Wow, what an awesome system and set up.  You've taken the stress off those plants.  Can't wait to hear how the high pressure system works.  Mind linking me to the R/O system you used?

Helper looks quite amused too.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 20, 2017, 10:27:29 AM
Heres a ling to the RO system.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01MYVS35X/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513783347&sr=8-1-fkmr0&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=hydrologic+ro+150 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01MYVS35X/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513783347&sr=8-1-fkmr0&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=hydrologic+ro+150)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on December 22, 2017, 08:08:15 AM
Heres a ling to the RO system.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01MYVS35X/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513783347&sr=8-1-fkmr0&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=hydrologic+ro+150 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01MYVS35X/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513783347&sr=8-1-fkmr0&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=hydrologic+ro+150)

Thanks.  I have been on the fence since my well water TDS is so high, 800 ppm plus.  What is your TDS and how often do you expect to replace the membranes?
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 22, 2017, 10:43:52 AM
Last I checked our well TDS was aroud 600.  City water in San Diego is 400ish. 

I already have an RO system in my house for drinking water and only do the membrane every year.  Its always still getting us down to 75ppm but we still replace it.

I havent checked what the TDS is at on this outdoor unit.  I assume its similar to the house unit and 75ish ppm.  Will check that out.

I am planning on filling the hoop house with plants and they will all get RO.  So it will be getting used.  My guess is 2 or 3 used membranes a year max. The unit does have an adjustment for how much waste water it produces.  I ran a long line out of the hoop house onto my bananas and passion fruits with the waste water.  So the RO is flushing extra water onto my outside plants.  The high waste water setting is supposed to extend membrane life.  Since you and I have well water and also can use the waste water, no need to feel guilty or worry about cost to using more water.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on December 24, 2017, 08:48:24 AM
Thanks for the info.  Your 600 PPM for TDS doesn't make me feel so challenged.

Isn't more waste water slough off an indication of purer treated water, lower PPM?  I could care less about the amount BTW.  I'll just run the waste tube out into the weeds by the greenhouse.

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on December 24, 2017, 01:00:40 PM
The unit is making 35ppm.  Thats pretty good.  More waste means less wear on the membrane.  So this unit cleans pretty well...
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Th3_BrazilianShark on January 05, 2018, 08:59:39 PM
The unit is making 35ppm.  Thats pretty good.  More waste means less wear on the membrane.  So this unit cleans pretty well...

Congratulations! I really loved it and I can't wait to start building mine. I have a similar RO system, but to avoid replacing the membrane so often, I decided to install a Hydro-Logic Tall Boy De-Chlorinator and Sediment Filter. The reason I did that is because the tall boy filter are very cheap and it doesn't overload the RO.

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on January 25, 2018, 09:00:15 PM
Mark, I just wanted to update you on the mist pump.  All I can say is it works amazing.  Not cheap, probably 1500$ or so of misting pump, fittings, nozzles, and a couple fans.  But this thing works amazing.  I have a 30$ amazon humidity controller running it automatically.

The exhaust fan and shutters in the HH are on a thermostat and come on around 90F or wherever I set it.  Then as dry air is pulled int, the humidity drops below 40% or whatever its set to and the mist pump kicks on.  Runs for a minute or so and shuts off and drops the temps.  The exhaust and mist usually shut off at the same time and the temperature and humidity in the HH are pegged wherever I want them. 

I would highly recommend it with one exception.  Since you guys have more humidity, I don't know if it will work as well for you.  Humidity here has been 15 to 35% lately.  Quite low and this is our wet season.  It should work extremely well in summer.  I can do a video next time its hot here.  Had it running quite a bit a few days ago.  Today it was cooler and more humid and hardly ran.

The HH is doing amazing things for my plants.  I always thought I was bad at growing container plants.  It turns out having the right humidity makes a huge difference.  No more brown leaf tips and everything is actively flushing mid winter. 

Ive got about 50 mango trees and 50 avocado trees started.  Lots of cherimoyas and dragon fruits also.  I put some coffee seeds in pots recently, hopefully those pop.  We are also growing tomatos, cilantro, onions, and peppers.  We also let loose 1500 lady bugs inside and they fixed the aphids we had on some trees in just a few days.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Samu on January 25, 2018, 09:39:13 PM
Wow Spaugh, looks like your HH is really getting to be a comfortable environment for your plants to grow in; congratulation!

One thing though, seems like there is a correlation between owning a HH and a boat that I used to own. Every time I looked and thinker, yes it will get improved, but it ain't cheap! I read this in boating forum years ago, someone said the acronym of B.O.A.T.
is Break Out Another Thousand... ;D

Wondering if one can have a functional Hoop House built on a budget?
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on January 25, 2018, 10:13:03 PM
Haha, hoop house is much cheaper than a boat.  But yes way more $ than I ever planned on.  Its all finished now and I am quite happy with it.

If you ever come to san diego you should come for a visit Samu.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Samu on January 26, 2018, 02:12:41 AM
Glad that it's "all finished" now, but, are you sure Spaugh?  ;D

Ok, when opportunity present itself for me to go down to San Diego,
I would love to pay you a visit Spaugh; thanks a lot!
Same to you, an open invitation for coffee etc. if you happen to be in
my neighborhood...

By the way, did you know that our long time member "Mark in Texas" suffered tremendous loss due to heater malfunction on his GH due to recent cold waves?  Feeling so sorry for him. He posted the news at the Buy/Sell/Trade section on JF's scion sales...http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=22770.300 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=22770.300)


Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on January 26, 2018, 09:35:48 AM
I had not seen that.  That really sucks.  Luckily here the cold is not an issue.  The heat on the other hand could cook my plants.  If there is a power outage and my fans and mist system go down when its 110 things are going to get roasted.   I am usually around and have a small generator in as of emergency. 

And yes, this thing is done done.  For now...
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on January 27, 2018, 08:31:33 AM
Really glad you got the setup going, thanks for the update!  New crop sounds great.  FWIW, cilantro and dill thrive on cold weather.  Mine went thru 13F for hours with no damage.  When planted late spring, they and many other veggies like lettuce go to seed quickly.

Been toying with the idea flash system for years, still running these damn swamp coolers.  Having said that what pump did you finally get and is it loud?  Did you place it outside or inside of the greenhouse?  I assume it receives R/O water so you don't have to worry about clogging nozzles.  I was thinking about starting with about 12 ruby nozzles with a ring around the dry outputs of the coolers and some hanging in the rafters.  What maintenance issues do you foresee other than changing out R/O filters?  Appreciate the feedback Brad.

Yeah, I lost everything including exotics like dwarf Plumerias from Thailand, rootstocks, pitaya, maters, mangos, avocados, etc. stuff I've been sourcing and grafting since about 2008.  Felt physically sick for days thanks to the loss.  The only thing that may come thru undamaged is a Meyer lemon on Flying Dragon.  Had 18F, for how long I don't know and what's ironical is I had wrote in our TX Fruit Facebook group I was going to get a wireless alarm system installed.   Never did get the alarm and am playing the "kick me" game now.  I also had a 50K BTU propane back up system, a big garage pot type heater. Many Texas growers took a big hit indoors in greenhouses and out.  Ed Self, a long time collector and once Florida resident lost priceless collections from the 80's when a flying shed busted into his hoop house while he was away.  Got down to 13F for him.   FWIW he sold most of his stock to Adam before moving to central Texas.  Our March 3 scion exchange will be more of a Pity Party.  ;D 
 
(https://s10.postimg.cc/oyus560o5/Sweet_Tart_Jan25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/oyus560o5/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/6lu6ue0f9/Oro_Negro_Jan25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6lu6ue0f9/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/k2r5d9q6d/Citrus_Jan25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/k2r5d9q6d/)

Holiday still hanging on the dead cocktail tree (Ardith, Holiday, Pinkerton, Sir Prize). Huge, must be 2#.  Had a couple of them and this was from a 2016 grafting.  Highly recommend this one.

(https://s10.postimg.cc/ondbs49ut/Holiday_Jan25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ondbs49ut/)

We made a huge batch of orange marmalade yesterday with about 85% Blood oranges, the rest being one large delicious grapefruit, Meyer lemons, key lime. I added 2 vanilla beans.  Needless to say we've juicing a lot too and still have tons of fruit hanging, on the ground, kitchen counter, etc.  I bet I have 100 Reeds and Oro Negro, the latter just beginning to turn black. ON is not up to the quality of stuff like Reed, Sir Prize, Pinkerton, etc. but the quality is surprising. Seems the older the tree the better (richer) the fruit.  Big seed, great texture, not really nutty though, thick peel which I like.

(https://s10.postimg.cc/4u17zkot1/Blood_Orange_Juice.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4u17zkot1/)

Based on what happens (I need rootstocks) am playing the waiting game to see if anything pushes from the soil or mulch. Then I can go from there.  Have had tremendous offers for scions which is greatly appreciated.  Lost a shitload of pineapples many the White Sugarloaf and very big White Jade.  Will order clones in a month.

(https://s10.postimg.cc/hy6scayv9/Reeds_Jan25.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hy6scayv9/)

Regards,
Mark
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on January 27, 2018, 08:45:35 AM
I had not seen that.  That really sucks.  Luckily here the cold is not an issue.  The heat on the other hand could cook my plants.  If there is a power outage and my fans and mist system go down when its 110 things are going to get roasted.   I am usually around and have a small generator in as of emergency. 

And yes, this thing is done done.  For now...

I had failure with an on board limit switch.  This was a Melnor fan forced 120K BTU propane heater - controllers tell the burners to kick on, fan failed to run, unit gets hot, safety device trips, heater is put into a temporary shut down mode.  A/C tech had it fixed in an hour.  Point being you can't count on electrical devices, reason why I had a big garage type propane pot in case the electricity went out.  Never thought of a heater failure during one of the coldest nights in many years.

If you got the bucks you could install a self starting Generac whole house generator tying into the main breaker box. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on January 27, 2018, 10:31:32 AM
Mark, I am really sorry to hear that.  The time, effort and money that goes into building a collection like that...  So sorry.  I actually have a lot of seedlings in 1/2 gal grow bags.  Avo, mango, cherimoya, and dragon fruit.  If you want any of it I can mail you starter trees and scions.

The mist pump is 1/3 gpm fully enclosed from aeromist.com 
Its running on well water filtered down to 5 microns.  I have our entire property filtered to 5 microns but if you don't have that it would bet an additional item for maintenance.  Otherwise I see little to no maintenance needed on this thing.  Its a beast and should keep on ticking for a long time.  It sucks 8amps so its 1000w power hog.  I dont really care since we have a big solar system and have excess power.  But that could be a concern for people with already high power bills.  Pump is mounted inside.  It makes a little noise but nothing annoying.  You can sit right next to it and have a conversation and barely notice it.  It kind of hums and noise should not bother you.  I am running 8 .008" nozzles.  Your GH would require a larger pump.  Maybe 1/2 gpm or 3/4gpm.  You really want to put the nozzles on fans.  The water evaporates a lot better on a fan. 

I will post up photos in a bit when I get out in the garden today.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on January 27, 2018, 12:42:29 PM
(https://s14.postimg.cc/b13jhfzrx/20180127_083833.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/b13jhfzrx/)

(https://s14.postimg.cc/6rytfaby5/20180127_083919.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6rytfaby5/)

(https://s14.postimg.cc/z4ub5qaj1/20180127_083953.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/z4ub5qaj1/)

(https://s14.postimg.cc/p7jacnv7h/20180127_084048.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/p7jacnv7h/)

(https://s14.postimg.cc/gp9u8b1jh/20180127_093324.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/gp9u8b1jh/)

(https://s14.postimg.cc/oi0i0bht9/image-20180109_215842.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/oi0i0bht9/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on January 28, 2018, 09:49:51 AM
Mark, I am really sorry to hear that.  The time, effort and money that goes into building a collection like that...  So sorry.  I actually have a lot of seedlings in 1/2 gal grow bags.  Avo, mango, cherimoya, and dragon fruit.  If you want any of it I can mail you starter trees and scions.

Wow, how nice is that!  Will PM you my plans.  BTW, a staff and avid gardener at RootMaker told me recently that the grow bags are her favorite.  Not only do they do what they're designed to do but require less watering during the hot Alabama summer months.  I just got a roll of Rootbuilder to add onto my greenhouse pots, not that I'll need it any time soon now, but.  If interested, try to get it wholesale.  It's $160 a roll wholesale, 96 panels.  UPS cost me $40.  4 panels = 15 gal.; 5 = 20 gal.; and  so on.  8 = 55 gal. which is what I finish out at.  You're probably only using the house for starters though.

Quote
The mist pump is 1/3 gpm fully enclosed from aeromist.com 
Its running on well water filtered down to 5 microns.

You're not worried about the salts clogging the nozzles or dusting the plants white?  That's the main reason why I haven't jumped on this yet.  Was advised to go with a R/O system (or rain water) preceded by a water softener which extends the life of the R/O membranes.  Hell, if you think I can get by with straight filtered well water at a TDS of 830 PPM, I'm ordering tomorrow.

BTW, that is one sweet set up.  You're really doing it right.

Quote
  I have our entire property filtered to 5 microns but if you don't have that it would bet an additional item for maintenance.  Otherwise I see little to no maintenance needed on this thing.  Its a beast and should keep on ticking for a long time.  It sucks 8amps so its 1000w power hog.  I dont really care since we have a big solar system and have excess power.  But that could be a concern for people with already high power bills.  Pump is mounted inside.  It makes a little noise but nothing annoying.  You can sit right next to it and have a conversation and barely notice it.  It kind of hums and noise should not bother you.  I am running 8 .008" nozzles.  Your GH would require a larger pump.  Maybe 1/2 gpm or 3/4gpm.  You really want to put the nozzles on fans.  The water evaporates a lot better on a fan. 

300 or 1,000 PSI pump?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: ThangBom321 on January 28, 2018, 10:26:59 AM
Omg so sorry Mark. I'd be so pissed! Hell I'm pissed right now that my passion fruit vine died!

What a nice hoop house! There one I plan to build will be late budget. I like that rocket mass heater. Will most likely add that idea. Anyhow, you guys are cool! I want to join the cool hoop/green house kids.

Thangbom
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on January 28, 2018, 11:55:42 AM
Mark, its 1000psi pump.   Its the lowest flow rate they make in 1000psi.

https://www.aeromist.com/misting-pumps/enclosed-direct-drive-1000-psi/totally-enclosed-direct-drive-pump-1-3-gpm.html (https://www.aeromist.com/misting-pumps/enclosed-direct-drive-1000-psi/totally-enclosed-direct-drive-pump-1-3-gpm.html)

Remember my HH is about 4000 cu ft volume.  I would say this pump is maybe still slightly oversized.  You could go with 1/2 gpm size for your GH.  1 gpm might be ok but you will be throwing a lot of water around with that.  I bought .006", .008", and .012" nozzles just to see how they all work.  The smaller ones evaporate and have less drop out than the larger ones.  My advice would be get a smaller GPM pump and run lots of small nozzles. 

Time will tell but no Im not that worried about clogging nozzles.  The nozzles can be cleaned.  And its been several weeks now and they are working fine.  Worst case scenario the nozzles can be replaced.  The tip with the oriface can be replaced for a few bucks each.  If that starts to be a problem, I can just use RO.  The reason I am not using RO is because I dont really know what kind of input pressure the pump needs.  I have RO in a barrel right next to the pump and could easily use it.  I just don't know if it needs a boost pump.  I could call and find out.  If not, I may do that.  The water evaporates really quick and doesnt seem to leave white spots on the plants. 

I am growing a few plants for fun in 15 gal plants.  Then Ive got a bunch of smaller starter trees that will get planted out or sold.  The plan is to get a slot at the farmers market to unload some fruit from our orchard in a few years and maybe get into selling trees locally.  I have about 100 trees of all types in ground currently.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: knlim000 on January 28, 2018, 05:38:10 PM
My heart aches for you Mark in Texas. You got lots of nice collections and was doing so well too.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on January 28, 2018, 06:56:02 PM
Thanks for the kind words knlim000 and ThangBom.  All I got to say, again, is...."mother nature is a cruel mistress".

Appreciate the great info Brad and the link.  I figured out how much gph I'd need and noted it on file.  Wasn't much.   I may just go with the system on well water and tweek as necessary.  I can always rinse the trees with rain water is the bicarb dusts collect.  There's a large restaurant north of Austin that has an outdoor dining patio using with flash high pressure cooling.  The plants and patrons look and feel fine.  ;D  The owner treats his water with TAC technology both for drinking and the cooling system.  Water is processed through a catalytic media using a physical process called Template Assisted Crystallization (TAC).  https://www.wqpmag.com/water-conditioning-take-your-pick (https://www.wqpmag.com/water-conditioning-take-your-pick)

From May thru Sept. my RH runs around 15 - 40%, depends on recent rains which are pretty rare during the summer. 

Regards,
Mark



Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on January 28, 2018, 07:54:05 PM
Heres a video Mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIbdq446Rio&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIbdq446Rio&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on January 29, 2018, 04:41:25 PM
Heres a video Mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIbdq446Rio&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIbdq446Rio&feature=youtu.be)

Wow, "very cool" !   Love the fans.  Super nice setup.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 11, 2018, 07:50:50 AM
Excellent site regarding all phases of greenhouse management.  Here's a fine article on fogging Brad.
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/technology/natural-ventilation-and-fog-increase-cooling-efficiency/ (http://www.greenhousegrower.com/technology/natural-ventilation-and-fog-increase-cooling-efficiency/)

Efficiency and effects on plants using indirect heating (combustion products are exhausted) and free standing non vented heaters is also interesting.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on February 12, 2018, 02:49:31 PM
Mark, I talked to aeromist and they said no issue gravity feeding RO water to my 1/3gpm mist pump.  So I have one of my barrels feeding the pump now with RO.  Seems to work fine.  I was getting calcium on the fans and figured may as well try it with RO.  Seems fine, just have to make sure the RO keeps up with the pump size and usage.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: andrewq on February 13, 2018, 01:00:30 AM
That is looking suhhhhhhweeet.  Is that redwood framing?  You could easily install very efficient DIY vertical wet pads each side of the door.

If I had to do it all over again and wanted to produce fruit hortizonally rather than vertically I'd learn and do the japanese way for mangos, avocados, cherimoyas, etc.   My greenhouse columns are 10' with a roof peak at 18'.  Wish they were 8' to cut down on heating costs and maintenance.
Check out page 22 and on.   [url]http://www.hawaiitropicalfruitgrowers.org/conferences/2016/2016_JohnYoshimiYonemoto_PruningforAvocadoandMangoProduction.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.hawaiitropicalfruitgrowers.org/conferences/2016/2016_JohnYoshimiYonemoto_PruningforAvocadoandMangoProduction.pdf[/url])


my mind is blown
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 13, 2018, 08:01:21 AM
Mark, I talked to aeromist and they said no issue gravity feeding RO water to my 1/3gpm mist pump.  So I have one of my barrels feeding the pump now with RO.  Seems to work fine.  I was getting calcium on the fans and figured may as well try it with RO.  Seems fine, just have to make sure the RO keeps up with the pump size and usage.

Thanks for the info again.  Have decided to not include a water softener before the R/O knowing full well I'll be replacing filter membranes often.

Yeah, those Japanese methods are pretty wild Andrew.  Just wonder how they would hold up after 10 years or so.  Note, they can't be getting a lot of light but look at that production, sheesh!
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: andrewq on February 13, 2018, 10:20:18 AM
Mark, I talked to aeromist and they said no issue gravity feeding RO water to my 1/3gpm mist pump.  So I have one of my barrels feeding the pump now with RO.  Seems to work fine.  I was getting calcium on the fans and figured may as well try it with RO.  Seems fine, just have to make sure the RO keeps up with the pump size and usage.

Thanks for the info again.  Have decided to not include a water softener before the R/O knowing full well I'll be replacing filter membranes often.

Yeah, those Japanese methods are pretty wild Andrew.  Just wonder how they would hold up after 10 years or so.  Note, they can't be getting a lot of light but look at that production, sheesh!

itís almost like container growing... the container forum folks strongly encourage root pruning and replacement of the container mix every 1-2 years. iíve asked them about mega-sized container growing and there doesnít seem to be as much experience.

i missed the part about decreasing exposure to light. what was the reason?


iím going to try this with my some of my container lychees
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on February 14, 2018, 10:35:11 AM
Mark, I talked to aeromist and they said no issue gravity feeding RO water to my 1/3gpm mist pump.  So I have one of my barrels feeding the pump now with RO.  Seems to work fine.  I was getting calcium on the fans and figured may as well try it with RO.  Seems fine, just have to make sure the RO keeps up with the pump size and usage.

Thanks for the info again.  Have decided to not include a water softener before the R/O knowing full well I'll be replacing filter membranes often.

Yeah, those Japanese methods are pretty wild Andrew.  Just wonder how they would hold up after 10 years or so.  Note, they can't be getting a lot of light but look at that production, sheesh!

Did you settle on a pump?

I think no softener is good.  You would just be paying for salts instead of membranes and more crap to maintain.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 16, 2018, 12:27:56 PM
Did you settle on a pump?

I think no softener is good.  You would just be paying for salts instead of membranes and more crap to maintain.

Not yet.  I need to get other farm chores out of the way and we still have about 3 mos. before hot weather hits.  BTW, I did all the calculations a few years ago.

R/O was originally designed for purifying salt water.  Talked to quite a few techs and they parrot the same thing - considering my super hard water which is high in bicarbs of Mg and Ca and sulfates, I should precede the system in order to extend the life of the membranes.  I know, doesn't make sense to me either.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on February 16, 2018, 01:10:48 PM
Did you settle on a pump?

I think no softener is good.  You would just be paying for salts instead of membranes and more crap to maintain.

Not yet.  I need to get other farm chores out of the way and we still have about 3 mos. before hot weather hits.  BTW, I did all the calculations a few years ago.

R/O was originally designed for purifying salt water.  Talked to quite a few techs and they parrot the same thing - considering my super hard water which is high in bicarbs of Mg and Ca and sulfates, I should precede the system in order to extend the life of the membranes.  I know, doesn't make sense to me either.

I would try it and just see how it goes.  Membranes are an easy fix and you are back to new again.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 16, 2018, 03:09:01 PM
Did you settle on a pump?

I think no softener is good.  You would just be paying for salts instead of membranes and more crap to maintain.


Not yet.  I need to get other farm chores out of the way and we still have about 3 mos. before hot weather hits.  BTW, I did all the calculations a few years ago.

R/O was originally designed for purifying salt water.  Talked to quite a few techs and they parrot the same thing - considering my super hard water which is high in bicarbs of Mg and Ca and sulfates, I should precede the system in order to extend the life of the membranes.  I know, doesn't make sense to me either.


I would try it and just see how it goes.  Membranes are an easy fix and you are back to new again.


Everyone including Aeromist has confirmed that if your water is hard you need a salt softener first.  http://blog.watertech.com/is-reverse-osmosis-needed-if-have-a-water-softener/ (http://blog.watertech.com/is-reverse-osmosis-needed-if-have-a-water-softener/)

This dilemna is what has kept me on the fence for years.  Think I'll go with another but much bigger rainwater tank, stuck under the un-used greenhouse gutter, tie the two tanks together and draw off that for both watering plants and the mist system.  Aeromist is working me up a system now - rings on the outputs of swamp coolers and nozzles in the rafters.  Can buy a 1,075 gal. tank for $610 plus a short drive to Austin to pick it up.

(https://s10.postimg.cc/gmvjers8l/Greenhouse.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/gmvjers8l/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on February 16, 2018, 03:21:30 PM
If you get enough rainfall throughout summer to keep the tank from drying up then for sure that is the best option.

I dont doubt a softener helps the RO unit last longer.  What I don't really know is if buying one and then paying for salts will ever offset the cost of membranes.  The membranes are only 20$ and I really can't see needing to replace more than 2 per year.

I will find out though.  I am nonitoring the TDS of my RO water that feeds the mist pump.  As long as its staying at 35ppm or close to that I'm not touching it.  Its been a few months now and still at 35ppm.  I use the water for misting and watering.  Seems like it should last quite a while before replacement is necessary.

I will for sure keep an eye on it and let you know.  If I had rain here, thats what I would use too.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: simon_grow on February 16, 2018, 04:36:16 PM
I read somewhere that people were using their used membranes as a pre filter to extend the life of the new filter. Iíve never done this myself but it makes sense.

Simon
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 17, 2018, 06:50:04 AM
Whole house rainwater systems are pretty common around here.  Many have tank capacities of up to 42,000 gal.  Even the drought of 2011 when we got 4.5" or rain sustained my doctor's family of 6. 

Will be interesting to see how those filters hold up.  Your water is softer than mine.  For pre filters this is all I use, Amiad.  No cellulose filters, just a cylindrical S/S that you can take out of the body, wash and you're good to go.  Have one on the  house and field. http://www.amiadusa.com/filters/PL101_2.asp?filterNum=PL101 (http://www.amiadusa.com/filters/PL101_2.asp?filterNum=PL101)

http://www.amiadusa.com/filters/PL101_2.asp?filterNum=PL101 (http://www.amiadusa.com/filters/PL101_2.asp?filterNum=PL101)

You can get a 3/4" for as low as $15.  Dripworks is higher. Can't find the vendor link I just got one from.  https://www.dripworks.com/amiad-filters-high-pressure (https://www.dripworks.com/amiad-filters-high-pressure)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 18, 2018, 09:09:47 AM
After getting a bid from Aeromist, I'm right back where I started.  Based on a 1 GPM pump and an outrageous calculation of (28) .008 misters, we're talking 336 gal. per day will be required.  My best guess is that would put me into a wet spa type environment!

Needless to say a storage tank is out of the question unless I want to go with a 10,000 gal.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on February 18, 2018, 11:06:41 AM
Could you get a system half that size to augment you existing coolers?

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 20, 2018, 12:07:25 PM
Could you get a system half that size to augment you existing coolers?

The logistics of maintaining the swamp coolers is out of the question.  Salts ruin it.

Aeromist worked up another quote using less nozzles.  12 vs 28.  Nothing's easy.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on February 20, 2018, 12:43:47 PM
Mark, you could always add more nozzles.  I think a 1/2 gpm pump will work for you.

And you can get a humidistat like I got and it will only run a fraction of the time. 

It should use way less than you calculated, that wold be if you ran it non stop all day.  Only on the very hottest days will it be running a lot.  My pump cycles on and off like 100 times a day.  It kicks on for 30 seconds and is off again for 5 miutes or so.  Same with my venting, it is on a thermostat and opens and closes automatically and only runs part time.



Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 20, 2018, 02:20:21 PM
Mark, you could always add more nozzles.  I think a 1/2 gpm pump will work for you.

And you can get a humidistat like I got and it will only run a fraction of the time. 

It should use way less than you calculated, that wold be if you ran it non stop all day.  Only on the very hottest days will it be running a lot.  My pump cycles on and off like 100 times a day.  It kicks on for 30 seconds and is off again for 5 miutes or so.  Same with my venting, it is on a thermostat and opens and closes automatically and only runs part time.

Based on 10 hours run time from 10:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. May thru Sept.  I have clear polycarb on the north wall so those plants under it get direct sun.

Yep, you have to start somewhere and there will be a dozen tweeks like my irrigation system.  Aeromist specked out a 1/3 HP pump.

My metal greenhouse gets hot, always 10 - 25 degrees hotter than ambient air temp.

 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on February 20, 2018, 02:44:51 PM
If you run it non stop it will be so foggy you will not be able to see in there.  And you will have water on everything. Trust me on this you will need to get a humidistat to throttle it back. 

This is the one I use and it keeps the humidity at 40%

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01FQKXRXA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1519155758&sr=1-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=humidistat&dpPl=1&dpID=41p3jLw61%2BL&ref=plSrch (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01FQKXRXA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1519155758&sr=1-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=humidistat&dpPl=1&dpID=41p3jLw61%2BL&ref=plSrch)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on February 21, 2018, 12:05:42 PM
If you run it non stop it will be so foggy you will not be able to see in there.  And you will have water on everything. Trust me on this you will need to get a humidistat to throttle it back. 

This is the one I use and it keeps the humidity at 40%

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01FQKXRXA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1519155758&sr=1-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=humidistat&dpPl=1&dpID=41p3jLw61%2BL&ref=plSrch (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01FQKXRXA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1519155758&sr=1-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=humidistat&dpPl=1&dpID=41p3jLw61%2BL&ref=plSrch)

Thanks for the link.  Yes, I'd put it on a stat.  BTW, Axeon recommends a poly-phosphate pre-filter especially if your water is high in Ca and Mg bicarbs.  It would extend the life of your R/O membranes.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on March 08, 2018, 01:37:12 PM
I have a lot of weeds in the hoop house.  Big surprise I know.  What do you guys think about spraying with a pre emerchant?  I hate to spray chemicals in there but I wonder if I kill the weeds and sterilize it with pre emerchent that weeds will stay gone?
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: FrankDrebinOfFruits on March 08, 2018, 02:23:29 PM
I have a lot of weeds in the hoop house.  Big surprise I know.  What do you guys think about spraying with a pre emerchant?  I hate to spray chemicals in there but I wonder if I kill the weeds and sterilize it with pre emerchent that weeds will stay gone?

I have heard 95% shade cloth pulled tight and staked is the best solution. I used junk plywood on top of visquine, rotted in 2 years...
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on March 08, 2018, 05:57:17 PM
I have a lot of weeds in the hoop house.  Big surprise I know.  What do you guys think about spraying with a pre emerchant?  I hate to spray chemicals in there but I wonder if I kill the weeds and sterilize it with pre emerchent that weeds will stay gone?

You're not growing in the ground so it's a moot point.  I am, and I use glyphosate on weeds that grow right up to the pots which are bottomless.   Contrary to the Monsanto haters' drivel....... microbes feed on glyphosate and it's rendered benign upon contact with soil.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on March 08, 2018, 06:04:23 PM
I have a lot of glyphosate.  The power company pays for it so I will maintain a fire break for them.

I have 2 kinds.  41% and 41% with premerchent (total control).

I am thinking remove everything and nail it with the nuclear stuff and then move back in.

Its more pain for me mark because I have lots of small propogation pots crammed together.  I have to move them all out to spray or risk getting on all the plants.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on March 09, 2018, 08:38:35 AM
I hold a barrier in one hand against my fave and spray using a qt. bottle with the other hand for such close up work.

If you really want to kick up the burn add 1 tsp. of sprayable ammonium sulfate and additional surfactant to your mix.  I use a non-ionic surfactant, about a tsp/gallon.  1 to 1.5 oz will get grasses and some broadleaves, 2 oz. will even get thistle and hard to kill broadleaves like silver nightshade.

All of this converted of course if I'm mixing 40 gallons at a time.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on April 09, 2018, 06:17:55 PM
I used total control on the greenhouse floor mark, no more weeds.

Its 99F and 16% humidity outside today.  The mist pump is having no problems keeping the temperature down inside.  I have 7 .006" misters running.  I am going to start running bigger misters soon but looks like keeping the HH cool is not going to be a problem even when its 110 outside.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on April 10, 2018, 08:21:19 AM
That's wonderful news Brad.   Have a friend who knows the R/O technology well.  He advises to run the system year round daily if only a few minutes.  He's been on his for 2 years and not changed out filters.  His water is harder than mine, same aquifer.  His water filters thru more limestone than mine.

Based on my greenhouse design you think I could get by with foggers on oscillating fans rather than hassle with the ring nozzles?  Could cut down on the system size versus 2 rings attached to the fan housings, 8 nozzles and 4 nozzles hanging a foot or so down from the rafters.  Am still pondering this.  (I tend to over think this stuff)

Two high speed fans, 5000 cfm each.  Had wrens nesting in the housing!

(https://s18.postimg.cc/hq0rdcr8l/wren_3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hq0rdcr8l/)

2' H roof vent, facing leeward north side.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/t52af627p/Clear_NRoof_Polycarb.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/t52af627p/)

4' wall vent, oriented south, windward.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/6lgup5x91/Wall_Vent_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6lgup5x91/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on April 10, 2018, 11:09:52 AM
That's wonderful news Brad.   Have a friend who knows the R/O technology well.  He advises to run the system year round daily if only a few minutes.  He's been on his for 2 years and not changed out filters.  His water is harder than mine, same aquifer.  His water filters thru more limestone than mine.

Based on my greenhouse design you think I could get by with foggers on oscillating fans rather than hassle with the ring nozzles?  Could cut down on the system size versus 2 rings attached to the fan housings, 8 nozzles and 4 nozzles hanging a foot or so down from the rafters.  Am still pondering this.  (I tend to over think this stuff)

Two high speed fans, 5000 cfm each.  Had wrens nesting in the housing!

(https://s18.postimg.cc/hq0rdcr8l/wren_3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hq0rdcr8l/)

2' H roof vent, facing leeward north side.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/t52af627p/Clear_NRoof_Polycarb.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/t52af627p/)

4' wall vent, oriented south, windward.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/6lgup5x91/Wall_Vent_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6lgup5x91/)

So I have been running a lot of RO water for my pump and for my plants.  I have gotten a new RO membrane that is larger and rated at 400gpd.  Im not sure it makes that much but it flows pretty well.  It always keeps my barrel topped off.  69$ off ebay for the membrane and the housing.  Then it needs 2 (1/4" threaded elbows to 1/4" tube) and 1 (3/8" threaded elbow to 3/8" tube) and an autoshutoff valve.  Whole setup is under 100$.  It needs a prefilter which is already done upstream near my well to 5microns.

(https://s31.postimg.cc/9ttajj4fr/20180410_075324.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9ttajj4fr/)

For oscilating fans and rings I just run cheapo fans and use the regular flexible tubing and make my own.

(https://s31.postimg.cc/uqpio8kh3/20180410_075110.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uqpio8kh3/)

I think you will be fine whatever you decide.  The mist evaporates best whererver there is air moving.  Either above an air inlet to the GH or on a fan.  You could do both.  For sure put some nozzles whever air is entering the GH.  And if you run some down the middle above everything use .006 nozzles since they evap really fast.  You can always buy more tubing and fittings and adjust it.  I am sure you will need to. Based on the photos, I would probably just run a row of misters above the air intake and one aling the rafters in the middle of the GH about 10' high. 

Do your fans blow in or suck out?

Heres some photos of my HH.

Tomato and watermelon starters

(https://s31.postimg.cc/5xfynpyxj/20180410_075341.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5xfynpyxj/)

Cherimoya starters

(https://s31.postimg.cc/fj9j3ualz/20180410_075401.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fj9j3ualz/)


Avocado grafted starter trees

(https://s31.postimg.cc/v3gwumd3b/20180410_075350.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/v3gwumd3b/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/ic2qo4b13/20180410_075414.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ic2qo4b13/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/3svlmouqv/20180410_075418.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3svlmouqv/)

Coffee starters
(https://s31.postimg.cc/xkso1x7af/20180410_075424.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xkso1x7af/)

Mango starters

(https://s31.postimg.cc/wiihjeyrr/20180410_075431.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wiihjeyrr/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/6zq56ds2f/20180410_075441.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6zq56ds2f/)

Desert rose

(https://s31.postimg.cc/6a7cu1u3r/20180410_075338.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6a7cu1u3r/)

Cherry tomatos year round

(https://s31.postimg.cc/blm9es3br/20180410_075510.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/blm9es3br/)

Dragon fruit mother plants

(https://s31.postimg.cc/jr4bcyu5j/20180410_075520.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jr4bcyu5j/)

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on April 10, 2018, 02:20:19 PM
Damn!   Everything looks great and thanks for sharing the info and photos.

Wait to you see this rectangular RootBuilder pot I built.  As soon as get thru pulling a mile of irrigation line to sell to a peach grower and gonna backfill and plant Sugar Pitaya, Santa Barbara Red, Purple Haze.

Fans inject.  Principle is to use both injected air and air coming off the south prevailing winds thru the wall vent.  They get bad too.  Recently had gusts to 38 mph.  Pollinators and hummingbirds come and go when the vents are open.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on April 10, 2018, 03:10:20 PM
Damn!   Everything looks great and thanks for sharing the info and photos.

Wait to you see this rectangular RootBuilder pot I built.  As soon as get thru pulling a mile of irrigation line to sell to a peach grower and gonna backfill and plant Sugar Pitaya, Santa Barbara Red, Purple Haze.

Fans inject.  Principle is to use both injected air and air coming off the south prevailing winds thru the wall vent.  They get bad too.  Recently had gusts to 38 mph.  Pollinators and hummingbirds come and go when the vents are open.

Thanks, if your fans inject I would run a ring on them or above them.  And above the other vent.  And maybe above everything. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on April 11, 2018, 08:57:29 AM
Thanks, if your fans inject I would run a ring on them or above them.  And above the other vent.  And maybe above everything.

That's what I was thinking, a ring with 4 nozzles on each fan housing and a couple hanging from the rafters.  I also have HAF fans that point down a few degrees.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: CA Hockey on April 11, 2018, 10:01:51 AM
How do you preserve your vents in heavy winds? Iíve heard that they can be blown away.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on August 07, 2018, 10:56:49 AM
Mark I just wanted to post a photo of this new pump and give an update on the HH.  First of all, RO is a must in the misters.  I started using well water and the plants got the mineral fallout on them and became unhappy.  Im planning to go get some battery acid and make some fake RO rainwater to give them an acid bath and reverse the damage.  Also the 1/3 gpm pump is way bigger than necessary for my setup.  So now Ive got a better feel for things Im switching to a smaller .13gpm pump.  Its the smallest pump CAT makes.  Going to only be running 6 .006" misters.  If you ever need a pump, let me know I can help you put one together a lot cheaper than aeromist or others sell them for. 

(https://s33.postimg.cc/rch3t0hkb/20180806_164001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rch3t0hkb/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: brian on August 07, 2018, 11:29:46 AM
Would you mind providing a bit more information about your misting setup?  I am looking into doing the same for my 18x32' greenhouse.  I have city water which is pretty clear so I am going to try this as-is and do a RO system if it turns out to be necessary.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on August 07, 2018, 12:03:27 PM
Would you mind providing a bit more information about your misting setup?  I am looking into doing the same for my 18x32' greenhouse.  I have city water which is pretty clear so I am going to try this as-is and do a RO system if it turns out to be necessary.

Brian, you should get a TDS meter and check how much junk is in the water.

For your size greenhouse you could probably use the small one like this.  Its a CAT .13gpm

To be honest it would take me a LOT of time to tell you everything you need to make it work.  Theres a ton of pipe fittings and stuff you will need to source from multiple places.  I have it on a humidistat and have a relay setup, its own breaker etc.  I ordered the pump from kleen rite in PA which sources it from CAT. 

The mist line and misters and mist fittings are from aeromist.com and the pipe fittings are from mcmaster.  Relay was off amazon.

Basically you are going to need to know how to do plumbing and electrical to set it up.

I will take photos of it when I put it together later today.  Then if you want you can call me to discuss later in the week. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: brian on August 07, 2018, 02:38:02 PM
Thanks for the info!   I know quite a bit about electric and plumbing so I expect I can make it work, but I had no idea where to start looking for parts.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on August 07, 2018, 10:18:20 PM
Ok, pump is pretty much setup.  All the stuff on the output side needs to be rated for 1000psi.  It came with a vibration dampening hose and you have to add all the external pipe fittings.  I put a liquid filled anti vibration pressure gauge on it and it has low pressure quick connects on the input port and bypass and will have a 1000psi push to connect in the outlet. 


(https://s15.postimg.cc/nqgmlhxtj/20180807_162543.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/nqgmlhxtj/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/wy8v28f6f/20180807_165211.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wy8v28f6f/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/sccqtve7r/20180807_165222.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/sccqtve7r/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/llw9kfbmf/20180807_165229.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/llw9kfbmf/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/rmtyhildz/20180807_165233.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rmtyhildz/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/60ey0h7dz/20180807_165237.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/60ey0h7dz/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: brian on August 09, 2018, 12:38:01 PM
Awesome!   Thank you for the details.   I am thinking of putting a grid of fogger bars on my inlet shutters.  My water comes in via a Woodford frost-free faucet.  I am thinking I can attach a tee with one end for my watering host and other to the fogger pump, and initially trigger it from a line voltage thermostat.  I will look into specialized evaporative cooling controls, but the ones I saw when I looked briefly once before were very expensive.   
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: behlgarden on August 09, 2018, 12:43:00 PM
Mark I just wanted to post a photo of this new pump and give an update on the HH.  First of all, RO is a must in the misters.  I started using well water and the plants got the mineral fallout on them and became unhappy.  Im planning to go get some battery acid and make some fake RO rainwater to give them an acid bath and reverse the damage.  Also the 1/3 gpm pump is way bigger than necessary for my setup.  So now Ive got a better feel for things Im switching to a smaller .13gpm pump.  Its the smallest pump CAT makes.  Going to only be running 6 .006" misters.  If you ever need a pump, let me know I can help you put one together a lot cheaper than aeromist or others sell them for. 

(https://s33.postimg.cc/rch3t0hkb/20180806_164001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rch3t0hkb/)

Brad, I would recommend that you use a simple sediment filter before feed goes to your RO, this will extend life of your RO filters and sediment filter is cheap, and will catch most just upfront.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on August 09, 2018, 02:58:15 PM
Yeah I have lots of filters, theres 5 stages of filtering before the water ever hits the RO membranes.  Kind of overkill but even with 5 filters in series the filters turn brown after a week in use.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on August 10, 2018, 10:20:19 AM
Mark I just wanted to post a photo of this new pump and give an update on the HH.  First of all, RO is a must in the misters.  I started using well water and the plants got the mineral fallout on them and became unhappy.  Im planning to go get some battery acid and make some fake RO rainwater to give them an acid bath and reverse the damage.  Also the 1/3 gpm pump is way bigger than necessary for my setup.  So now Ive got a better feel for things Im switching to a smaller .13gpm pump.  Its the smallest pump CAT makes.  Going to only be running 6 .006" misters.  If you ever need a pump, let me know I can help you put one together a lot cheaper than aeromist or others sell them for. 

(https://s33.postimg.cc/rch3t0hkb/20180806_164001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rch3t0hkb/)

Nice job and again thanks for sharing your info.  Yes, I'll be picking your brain fer sure.   You're right about knowing electrical and plumbing.  Most of the work is learning what fittings you'll need to hook the thing up.

I figured the well water was going to last all of about 1 day.   :D  It will toast you equipment and paint your plants white with salts.  R/O or rainwater is the only way to go.

Regards,
Mark
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on August 10, 2018, 10:36:04 AM
Mark and Brian search google for "4040 RO membrane"  or "4040 RO stainless housing". 

For the cost thats probably the best option for RO water.  2500GPD for under 300$

I will be going that route when the time comes to replace the current membranes.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on August 10, 2018, 11:14:35 AM
Mark and Brian search google for "4040 RO membrane"  or "4040 RO stainless housing". 

For the cost thats probably the best option for RO water.  2500GPD for under 300$

I will be going that route when the time comes to replace the current membranes.

Got it, thanks!   https://www.amazon.com/Dow-Filmtec-XLE-4040-Commercial-Membrane/dp/B00D43H6W0 (https://www.amazon.com/Dow-Filmtec-XLE-4040-Commercial-Membrane/dp/B00D43H6W0)

This is what's been keeping me busy.  Some of these bad boyz went up to 3#.  Fruit is pristine.

(https://s22.postimg.cc/4iteqqeyl/Mouv_Aug8_5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4iteqqeyl/)

(https://s22.postimg.cc/61te9mayl/Mouv_Aug8_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/61te9mayl/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on August 10, 2018, 11:42:22 AM
They have the stainless 4040 housings for 99$ and membranes for 170$ on ebay.  2500gpd is not a joke.  Thats a lot of RO.

Mark, grapes are looking good.  We got some ruby grapes starting to ripen up here.  I have to be honest I know very little about growing grapes.  It seems like the less I do for yhem the better they perform.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 07, 2019, 03:08:53 AM
I build RODI filters for reef aquariums .For misters you would need only RO without the DI( deionisation resin) resin wich its expensive and needs to be replaced quite offten.The most important thing to have when you have a RO filter its a TDS meter wich stands for Total Dissolved Solids.Beware that somme TDS are expensive,somme can be mounted inline with the filter ,but there are verry cheap and accurate ones on Ebay( 5 dolars or so cost).Without DI you will never get zero TDS instead ,depending on the tap water you should be good enough with 30-40 TDS.You dont have to use the RO filter every day but the membrane should stay always wet and most important its to clean the membrane periodically or when the TDS gets too big ( it has a special valve for cleaning,you turn that on and off).You need at least 4 atm of pressure and a container with a float switch that turns it off.If you dont have 4 atm pressure you can use a booster pump.If you have verry hard water you can use a polyphosphate filter( preferably for human consumption )before the RO system.Also beware that the RO makes clean and more dirrtyer water than the tap water wich will have the TDS much higher .You could use that water for something instead of throwing it on the sewage.You would need 3 filter for the RO instalation,first -5 micron filter,second active charcoal filter and the last its the membrane.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 08, 2019, 07:05:23 AM
I build RODI filters for reef aquariums .For misters you would need only RO without the DI( deionisation resin) resin wich its expensive and needs to be replaced quite offten.The most important thing to have when you have a RO filter its a TDS meter wich stands for Total Dissolved Solids.Beware that somme TDS are expensive,somme can be mounted inline with the filter ,but there are verry cheap and accurate ones on Ebay( 5 dolars or so cost).Without DI you will never get zero TDS instead ,depending on the tap water you should be good enough with 30-40 TDS.You dont have to use the RO filter every day but the membrane should stay always wet and most important its to clean the membrane periodically or when the TDS gets too big ( it has a special valve for cleaning,you turn that on and off).You need at least 4 atm of pressure and a container with a float switch that turns it off.If you dont have 4 atm pressure you can use a booster pump.If you have verry hard water you can use a polyphosphate filter( preferably for human consumption )before the RO system.Also beware that the RO makes clean and more dirrtyer water than the tap water wich will have the TDS much higher .You could use that water for something instead of throwing it on the sewage.You would need 3 filter for the RO instalation,first -5 micron filter,second active charcoal filter and the last its the membrane.

How long does that polyphosphate filter last?  Gallons?

I'm getting quotes on a RO system to provide water for an Aquafog.   Hang it and you're done.  My TDS runs 678 - 800 ppm but the problem is the hardness is way up there in the 400's.  With such a hardness value vendors recommend a water softener first.  That's just another gadget I don't feel like installing in line including loading it with salt. All of this takes up precious greenhouse real estate too.

Out of about 6 vendors I have yet to contact here's the first quote I got yesterday for everything needed, I guess.  ::)

On demand 1000 GPD R/O.  https://reverseosmosis.com/products/evolution-ro-1000-gallon-per-day-on-demand-ro-system (https://reverseosmosis.com/products/evolution-ro-1000-gallon-per-day-on-demand-ro-system)

Booster pump before the R/O unit - https://reverseosmosis.com/collections/pumps/products/aquatec-8800-3-8-hi-flow-booster-pump-w-pressure-switch-transformer (https://reverseosmosis.com/collections/pumps/products/aquatec-8800-3-8-hi-flow-booster-pump-w-pressure-switch-transformer)

Carbon prefilter that apparently removes much of the solids first. https://reverseosmosis.com/products/evolution-ro1000-kdf-carbon-prefilter (https://reverseosmosis.com/products/evolution-ro1000-kdf-carbon-prefilter)

Water delivery pump to the tank.  https://reverseosmosis.com/products/aquatech-5800-water-delivery-pump (https://reverseosmosis.com/products/aquatech-5800-water-delivery-pump)

Storage tank which I assume feeds direct to the Aquafiog fogger which requires a minimum 10 PSI input. https://reverseosmosis.com/collections/storage-tanks/products/14-gallon-water-storage-tank (https://reverseosmosis.com/collections/storage-tanks/products/14-gallon-water-storage-tank)

15 gph fogger with sump and float valve - https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/products/gt-500-series/gt-500-hanging-sump/ (https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/products/gt-500-series/gt-500-hanging-sump/)

Total - $2,391

R/O unit is overkill at 1000 GPD. I figure the fogger will need 150 gpd.  $625 is cheap enough for an on demand type.

 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on May 08, 2019, 10:24:09 AM
I put roll up sides on the hoop house and ditched the mist system.  Im pretty happy with that move.  So much less crap to deal with. 

Mark, are you able to just install more windows or something on the GH so you dont have to buy all that stuff?  It seems like a like of pieces. 

Regarding RO unit GPD ratings, go way bigger than you think you need.  My experience is they dont make as much as they claim by a longshot.  Some of those specs are with really high input pressure ratings like 400psi.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 08, 2019, 01:36:42 PM
The polyphosphate filter its cheap and you might get away only with it and a carbon filter ( + a 5 micron mesh)for the fogger.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PureOne-PS1-Polyphosphate-Set-1-Stufige-Filteranlage-10-Zoll/162876113904?hash=item25ec2c43f0:m:mdOGXS8Y9_l5Kl00I_j0Fdg (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PureOne-PS1-Polyphosphate-Set-1-Stufige-Filteranlage-10-Zoll/162876113904?hash=item25ec2c43f0:m:mdOGXS8Y9_l5Kl00I_j0Fdg) So,your planning to make 600 litters of RO water per day to run that fogger for 10 hours continuously?Thats a lot of RO water and you will loose a few cubic meters of water as waste water daily.You probably need a controller to turn the fogger on and off intermitently or even a timer socket so that way you would use much less RO water .If you have high pressure tap water,then you dont need the booster pump.150 gpd membrane plus housing at just 34 dollars( verry cheap) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Reverse-Osmosis-Membrane-Filter-2012-150-GPD-Replacement-for-TF-3012-500-TFM-100-/263260804792 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Reverse-Osmosis-Membrane-Filter-2012-150-GPD-Replacement-for-TF-3012-500-TFM-100-/263260804792)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on May 08, 2019, 03:52:07 PM
Those RO filters dont make as much water as they claim unless you have several hundred psi input pressure.  And you need to run a lot of waste water to get low TDS.  You are much better off getting an industrial size 4040 membrane and housing.  Trust me on this.

Mark, if it were me, I would hook the RO unit onto your rain catch tank on a float valve.  Then use a small boost pump from the tank to the mister.  Probably need a small bladder tank after the booster to give some elasticity to the system.  You wanna size the booster correctly also or its going to be cycling on and off constantly.  Thats a great way to burn up a motor.

Get the water softener and put it outside the GH along with a proper 4040 stainless membrane housing.  They must make weather proof softeners. 

And to control the mister, they have 30$ humitidy and or temperature controllers on amazon, that part will be easy.  But you should ask the mist company how often their mist pump can be cycled on and off.  That was a problem I ran into, the mist pump was cyxlig too much and the charge cap on the motor didnt have time to charge.  Motor wouldnt start, and breaker would get thrown on that outlet. 

Major pain in the ass.  Glad Im not doing that anymore.

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: tve on May 08, 2019, 04:51:01 PM
spaugh, any idea yet about the level of humidity on hot&dry days? Or did you just ditch the misting this winter? I'm wondering what I can do in terms of hoop house or similar in the summer to increase humidity without spending a lot of water and without having to run big fans for cooling due to plastic covering, etc. I.e., I'm wondering what the minimum is to create a bit of a microclimate that captures the plant transpiration...
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on May 08, 2019, 06:22:29 PM
For winter you dont need the misting, having a fan or enough windows and wind is enough to keep things cool.  I have my fan and shutters on a thermostat and can keep it whatever temp I set it to easily in winter.  Summer is a dofferent story.  You need to open the GH all the way up or have mist etc to keep it cool.  Otherwise its way too hot. 

The best way to raise the humidity level is going to be having lots of plants crammed in a small protected area.  Greenhouses can hold in humidity but its also going to be holding in the heat.  So yeah its a pain to get all that right.  If you are paying for city water, probably just plant a bunch of dense bushes around an area, get some canopy trees or shade cloth, and make a protected area instead of a GH. 

Probably not what you wanted to hear but thats my advice. 

The other thing is the hoop houses dont offer much night time warmth.  Its not a problem for me since it doesnt get that cold here but if your goal is to keep your plants from freezing you want a GH with dual pane walls that actually hold heat in at night.  A single layer of plastic isnt going to cut it. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 08, 2019, 07:01:31 PM
Off course that the bigger the membrane the better and i posted that 150GPD /30 dollars housing and membrane as an example for the right price and having in mind that Mark wont really need 600 litters of RO water a day.In his link the RO unit has 2 membranes and housings.Membranes are set to work between 40-60 psi .100 psi would damage most peoples instalations in homes.No matter what membrane you will use you will still have probably 4 times  more wastewater than the quantity of the RO water.I know its frustrating to need the RO water fast and to have to wait hours until its produced .That polyphosphate filter i found on Ebay ,would last years if only used without RO membrane ( with RO membrane,lifespan reduces to probably less than a quarter of time because you will throw 3 quarters of the RO waste water and will have to filter those also.For cirsculating high pressure pumps ,the chinese make somme really nice 12 Volts diaphragm pumps for like just 20 dollars.They really strong,stronger than the expensive booster pumps and they last the same as the expensive booster pumps @ 3000 hours because they have brushed motoŕs and those brushes are consumable parts. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Diaphragm-Water-Self-Priming-Pump-High-Pressure-Car-BOAT-70W/153352524781?epid=2172218673&hash=item23b485d3ed:g:9JIAAOSwp3dcS0DR (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Diaphragm-Water-Self-Priming-Pump-High-Pressure-Car-BOAT-70W/153352524781?epid=2172218673&hash=item23b485d3ed:g:9JIAAOSwp3dcS0DR) These small pumps get to 130 psi and can work on lower voltages like 4 volts or so, to last longer oŕ be more quiet.Can also be used with solar pannels but they  need amperage @4 amps.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: tve on May 09, 2019, 12:02:45 AM
If you are paying for city water, probably just plant a bunch of dense bushes around an area, get some canopy trees or shade cloth, and make a protected area instead of a GH. 

The issue I see is the shade. For shade plants, yeah; the difficult situation is for plants that should get more or less full sun. I've been wondering about using some insect barrier covering or something like that. Should let >80% of sunlight through. Dunno how much of the humidity it keeps in if it's just the overhead part.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 09, 2019, 09:34:20 AM
Those RO filters dont make as much water as they claim unless you have several hundred psi input pressure.  And you need to run a lot of waste water to get low TDS.  You are much better off getting an industrial size 4040 membrane and housing.  Trust me on this.

Mark, if it were me, I would hook the RO unit onto your rain catch tank on a float valve.  Then use a small boost pump from the tank to the mister.  Probably need a small bladder tank after the booster to give some elasticity to the system.  You wanna size the booster correctly also or its going to be cycling on and off constantly.  Thats a great way to burn up a motor.

Get the water softener and put it outside the GH along with a proper 4040 stainless membrane housing.  They must make weather proof softeners. 

And to control the mister, they have 30$ humitidy and or temperature controllers on amazon, that part will be easy.  But you should ask the mist company how often their mist pump can be cycled on and off.  That was a problem I ran into, the mist pump was cyxlig too much and the charge cap on the motor didnt have time to charge.  Motor wouldnt start, and breaker would get thrown on that outlet. 

Major pain in the ass.  Glad Im not doing that anymore.

Yes it is and thanks for the detailed food for thought.  Hell, I might just install a 9,000 gal. water tank under the other gutter, tie it into the tank I already have and draw from that.  The existing 305 gal. water tank would last all of 3 days.

No misters, pump, etc..... just hang one of these and forget it.  Video is worth watching. https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/products/gt-500-series/gt-500-hanging-sump/ (https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/products/gt-500-series/gt-500-hanging-sump/)

Or, install a TAC system.  This no salt softener tech is bonafide.  Here's some lab tests on 3 water conditioners - magnetic, electromagnetic and Template Assisted Crystalization or TAC. https://watereuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Webinar-WateReuse-08-06.pdf (https://watereuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Webinar-WateReuse-08-06.pdf)   

I assume that because scale does not form that the R/O unit would flush it out, meaning I could go direct from the conditioner to the R/O system?

I got a couple of quotes so far.  Still working on it.   One includes a booster pump before and a small pump aft, pressurized tank, etc.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 09, 2019, 09:41:19 AM
Off course that the bigger the membrane the better and i posted that 150GPD /30 dollars housing and membrane as an example for the right price and having in mind that Mark wont really need 600 litters of RO water a day.In his link the RO unit has 2 membranes and housings.Membranes are set to work between 40-60 psi .100 psi would damage most peoples instalations in homes.No matter what membrane you will use you will still have probably 4 times  more wastewater than the quantity of the RO water.I know its frustrating to need the RO water fast and to have to wait hours until its produced .That polyphosphate filter i found on Ebay ,would last years if only used without RO membrane ( with RO membrane,lifespan reduces to probably less than a quarter of time because you will throw 3 quarters of the RO waste water and will have to filter those also.For cirsculating high pressure pumps ,the chinese make somme really nice 12 Volts diaphragm pumps for like just 20 dollars.They really strong,stronger than the expensive booster pumps and they last the same as the expensive booster pumps @ 3000 hours because they have brushed motoŕs and those brushes are consumable parts. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Diaphragm-Water-Self-Priming-Pump-High-Pressure-Car-BOAT-70W/153352524781?epid=2172218673&hash=item23b485d3ed:g:9JIAAOSwp3dcS0DR (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Diaphragm-Water-Self-Priming-Pump-High-Pressure-Car-BOAT-70W/153352524781?epid=2172218673&hash=item23b485d3ed:g:9JIAAOSwp3dcS0DR) These small pumps get to 130 psi and can work on lower voltages like 4 volts or so, to last longer oŕ be more quiet.Can also be used with solar pannels but they  need amperage @4 amps.

Thanks for the info!  After looking at units on Amazon, ebay, etc.  I've settled on this unit.  Not the cheapest but it has a booster pump, gauges to monitor pressure, etc. https://www.freshwatersystems.com/collections/reverse-osmosis-systems/products/axeon-l1-200-series-commercial-reverse-osmosis-system-200-gpd (https://www.freshwatersystems.com/collections/reverse-osmosis-systems/products/axeon-l1-200-series-commercial-reverse-osmosis-system-200-gpd)  80 gal. bladder tank on top of that.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 09, 2019, 09:48:06 AM
I put roll up sides on the hoop house and ditched the mist system.  Im pretty happy with that move.  So much less crap to deal with. 

Mark, are you able to just install more windows or something on the GH so you dont have to buy all that stuff?  It seems like a like of pieces. 

Regarding RO unit GPD ratings, go way bigger than you think you need.  My experience is they dont make as much as they claim by a longshot.  Some of those specs are with really high input pressure ratings like 400psi.

Like we discussed on the phone, I have about 10X the venting most greenhouse techs recommend.  Wall vent is 4' X 36' and faces south prevailing winds that can sometimes get into the 40's mph. Roof is 2' X 36'.  2 swamp cooler provide a total of 10,000 CFM input.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fkv5GhP7/Greenhouse-South-Vent.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Fkv5GhP7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/t1D28pCs/Greenhouse.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t1D28pCs)


(https://i.postimg.cc/14FDqyhD/Clear-NRoof-Polycarb.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14FDqyhD)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on May 09, 2019, 11:33:46 AM
Mark, you have big vents but its still not enough obviously.  You probably won't like my idea but after dealing with the same problems, its what Im doing.  I'm removing the end walls and lifting the long walls open. 

In your case, it might be easiest to just remove the the panels on E, W, and N Ends of the GH and let it fully breath.  If thry come off easily thats what I would do instead of building a big mist system that sucks water and power and filters...

I'd just open that SOB up half the year. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 09, 2019, 03:53:22 PM
I use RODI a lot and continuously and i dont buy allready build systems because im always changing charcoal,DI resin to them,even the 5 microns filters i modifyed and i use my own media instead.Theres no need for those gauges and theyre useless just for marketing reasons added because if the last filter its stuck ,then all the gauges before will show the same pressure.This evaporative cooling system might be       more economic to use than RO foggers. I know its extensively used in USA so you might be allready familiar with it. https://youtu.be/bxxxNtJ8-2o
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 10, 2019, 10:24:00 AM
Mark, you have big vents but its still not enough obviously.  You probably won't like my idea but after dealing with the same problems, its what Im doing.  I'm removing the end walls and lifting the long walls open. 

In your case, it might be easiest to just remove the the panels on E, W, and N Ends of the GH and let it fully breath.  If thry come off easily thats what I would do instead of building a big mist system that sucks water and power and filters...

I'd just open that SOB up half the year.

This aint cheap polyvinyl. I can't just pull 1,000 self tapping screws out of corrugated polycarbonate panels plus we still get temps in the upper 90's and it's not unusual to have temps over 100F for days on end.  If you knew what it takes to drive one of the screws into this hardened steel you'd understand.  You have to use a carbide/tungsten drill just to start the hole.

Again, I'm not building a big mist system.  I don't have the patience for all the crap that goes into it.  Did you see the Aquafog device for $1,347?  Hang it, plug it in and you're done. 15 gph of fog which studies have shown is much more effective and energy conscious than stuff like wet pads.

https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/applications/ (https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/applications/)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: tve on May 10, 2019, 11:15:40 AM
That fogger looks interesting indeed. I look forward to hearing how it works! It's not cheap enough for me to just buy one to try out...
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on May 10, 2019, 01:11:31 PM
Mark, you have big vents but its still not enough obviously.  You probably won't like my idea but after dealing with the same problems, its what Im doing.  I'm removing the end walls and lifting the long walls open. 

In your case, it might be easiest to just remove the the panels on E, W, and N Ends of the GH and let it fully breath.  If thry come off easily thats what I would do instead of building a big mist system that sucks water and power and filters...

I'd just open that SOB up half the year.

This aint cheap polyvinyl. I can't just pull 1,000 self tapping screws out of corrugated polycarbonate panels plus we still get temps in the upper 90's and it's not unusual to have temps over 100F for days on end.  If you knew what it takes to drive one of the screws into this hardened steel you'd understand.  You have to use a carbide/tungsten drill just to start the hole.

Again, I'm not building a big mist system.  I don't have the patience for all the crap that goes into it.  Did you see the Aquafog device for $1,347?  Hang it, plug it in and you're done. 15 gph of fog which studies have shown is much more effective and energy conscious than stuff like wet pads.

https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/applications/ (https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/applications/)

Ok, I didnt know how easy or difficult it would be.  The mist fan looks good, its just all the bullshit you have to do to get low TDS water to it.  Its a major PITA.

Anyway you are a smart guy and been around the block.  I'm sure will get it figured out.  Keep us posted. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: JoeReal on May 10, 2019, 02:19:06 PM
Heres the current state of the project.  The door is going up and then it will be time to cover it.  There is no rush since its 95F here today.  Just trying to take my time and do it right the first time.

We do not get frost here but we do get into the mid 30s a few nights a year and also have extreme heat and low humidity in summer.  The HH is equiped with a fan that can replace the air every minute and I am thinking aluminite shade will go over the outside during summer to regulate temps.  The goal is to provide a more moderate environmwnt for my young potted plants and a for fun plants like coffee etc.  Warmer and dryer in winter and cooler more humid in summer.

This would be a good opportunity to try out ground source heating/cooling system. Basically lay down big air pipes around your greenhouse or adjacent field, at least 6 ft down. It will utilize the ground as your heat source and sink providing fresh air of constant temperature come summer or winter, or whenever the thermostat requests it. Only the power consumption of an air blower.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 10, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
Thats a nice high tech looking fogger but i would find out first in what way does it makes the fog,with high pressure nozzles or by ultrasounds.Also how much electric power it draws its important because at somme point ( if it works on ultrasounds) it might be cheaper/more efficient to just install an AC. I will probably use the cheaper misters that everhybody uses for greenhouse that work on 4 bar pressure and in case they got stuck il use a polyphosphate filter .Mounted on a humidity controller like Spaugh reccomended .https://youtu.be/vfOhrTyGy4I (https://youtu.be/vfOhrTyGy4I)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 10, 2019, 05:57:20 PM
Thats a nice high tech looking fogger but i would find out first in what way does it makes the fog,with high pressure nozzles or by ultrasounds.Also how much electric power it draws its important because at somme point ( if it works on ultrasounds) it might be cheaper/more efficient to just install an AC. I will probably use the cheaper misters that everhybody uses for greenhouse that work on 4 bar pressure and in case they got stuck il use a polyphosphate filter .Mounted on a humidity controller like Spaugh reccomended .https://youtu.be/vfOhrTyGy4I (https://youtu.be/vfOhrTyGy4I)

Way ahead of ya. I'm a research freak.  "Aw shit!" is not in my vocabulary. 

Brad, got it, THANKS!

https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/products/gt-500-series/gt-500-hanging-sump/ (https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/products/gt-500-series/gt-500-hanging-sump/)

Product description:  Hanging Sump Fog System

The GT 500 Hanging Sump is a ready-to-operate unit designed for interior humidification, evaporative cooling, and chemical fogging. Components are UV stabilized and suitable for outdoor use.

This centrifugal atomizer has a rear-feed blade system that produces billions of tiny, fog-like particles that evaporate quickly. A hydrophilic front guard helps keep floors dry. The unitís sump recycles wastewater and conserves water, making this unit great for use in drought-prone areas. The GT Hanging Sump uses a float valve to maintain the water level in the tank, a submersible pump to send water to the fogging head, and ball valve to control the fogging output.

The Hanging Sump comes equipped with an on/off power switch, 20í of water line, and a 15í power cord with plug. Units hang by either a single U-bolt or a universal mounting bolt.


So far I'll need a 48,000 grain water softener, Axeon 300 gpd R/O, 80 gal. pressure tank, fogger. Done.  All my research regarding non salt water conditioner have their short comings.  Best choice is TAC or Template Assisted Crystalization water conditioner.

A 9,200 gal. water tank is about $10,000 locally installed and hoping it rains which it doesn't come summer.  A dome of high pressure will soon set up over central Texas and does not move out until Sept.

Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 10, 2019, 08:04:22 PM
Thats a nice fan and has no nozzles so it might not necesarely need RO water and should be easy to clean in case it does get jammed.I didnt like the the noize thogh but i think its caused by a diaphragm pump they use to fed water to the rotor ,not by the fan itself.https://youtu.be/KJAGUluWhOc (https://youtu.be/KJAGUluWhOc) As for that TAC softener ,i went on a site that sells them and they were comparing TAC with magnet softeners and i think its a scam just like the magnets water softeners.Somme people add magnets on theyr car reservoir to improove milleage but they are shallow people.I choose the snake oil filter magnet instead of a  polyphosphate filter for my home because polyphosphates could be bad for a reef aquarium and the
law here says i need to have a filter.For plants the polyphosphate filter alone might work better than even RO water wich has 30-40 tds( its not zero or distilled water ).
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: tve on May 10, 2019, 09:13:45 PM
I don't think TAC is a scam. See https://watereuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Webinar-WateReuse-08-06.pdf for example. Since I've added a TAC filter to my house I've had fewer scaling problems with my instant hot water heater. I also see the difference in the rest of the plumbing and cooking. The magnetic "descaler" works as well, but is much less effective than TAC and it's not just a couple of magnets affixed to a pipe. Interesting stuff, actually.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on May 10, 2019, 09:52:57 PM
I don't think TAC is a scam. See https://watereuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Webinar-WateReuse-08-06.pdf for example. Since I've added a TAC filter to my house I've had fewer scaling problems with my instant hot water heater. I also see the difference in the rest of the plumbing and cooking. The magnetic "descaler" works as well, but is much less effective than TAC and it's not just a couple of magnets affixed to a pipe. Interesting stuff, actually.
Thats interesting but the comparison with magnets its strange because they compare theyr product with a snake oil and that made me skeptical.And they show no picture with TAC vs polyphosphates wich are the #1 solution to hard water worldwide and also in nature ( phosphorus its mainly found as calcium phosphate).Here is a picture with my magnet water softener wich i call it a snake oil.Its a certifyed product sold in stores but i think they sell them as an alternative for people that dont want to have a filter so that they can trick the law .(https://i.postimg.cc/7LVBQPw1/20190511-045412.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on May 10, 2019, 10:42:04 PM
The RO water isnt to keep the nozzles from clogging.  A particulate filter takes care of that.  Its to remove the hardness from the water you are going to be blowing all over your special plants and greenhouse.  All that scale will end up on your plants and greenhouse walls etc.  Plants really do not like to be misted with hard water all day long. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 11, 2019, 10:58:08 AM
Thats a nice fan and has no nozzles so it might not necesarely need RO water and should be easy to clean in case it does get jammed.

Brad's right, I don't want my trees to be dusted white with salts.  My TDS is 800 + ppm and hardness is 25 grains, bicarbonates.  Trust me, I've covered every angle of this for 3 years and seem stuck.

One solution to heat gain in greenhouses is choosing a film that has IR inhibitors in it.  Fairly new technology.  Fella who installed nano ceramic film on our new BMW front windows told me he uses the same, but clear, film (for vehicle front windshields) on greenhouse glass glazing.  Says it makes a huge difference.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 11, 2019, 11:05:39 AM
I don't think TAC is a scam. See https://watereuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Webinar-WateReuse-08-06.pdf for example. Since I've added a TAC filter to my house I've had fewer scaling problems with my instant hot water heater. I also see the difference in the rest of the plumbing and cooking. The magnetic "descaler" works as well, but is much less effective than TAC and it's not just a couple of magnets affixed to a pipe. Interesting stuff, actually.

TAC is not a scam. I personally witnessed a nice restaurant that had foggers installed over head at an ourdoor eating patio.  Place was covered in plants too, no white dusting.  I contacted the owner who was nice enough to get me all the details on his TAC installation and the vendor.  TAC conditioned water is used for all his water needs including cleaning dishes, coffee/tea, etc.  Area has the same limestone based soils and water sources.

What brand do you have?  I've looked at quite a few. 

R/O vendor said even with a TAC installed as a prefilter the hardness is still there.  The membranes will tend to foul up prematurely even though scale is mitigated.  I really need 0 hardness which can only be accomplished with a salt based water softener.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on May 12, 2019, 10:51:09 AM
Heres the roll up sides.  It rolls up 3ft or so.  Takes about 10 seconds to open up or close.  Can open both sides and the wind passes right through and keeps the HH cool.  The end walls are open for summer too.  The zig zag rope is there to hold the roll up wall from flapping in the wind.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MfjZFmd6/20190511-083141.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MfjZFmd6)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 13, 2019, 10:51:21 AM
Heres the roll up sides.  It rolls up 3ft or so.  Takes about 10 seconds to open up or close.  Can open both sides and the wind passes right through and keeps the HH cool.  The end walls are open for summer too.  The zig zag rope is there to hold the roll up wall from flapping in the wind.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MfjZFmd6/20190511-083141.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MfjZFmd6)

"Very cool".  :D

Quite a few folks in Texas cover their hoop houses in vinyl come winter and substitute shade cloth for the vinyl come spring.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on May 13, 2019, 11:04:07 AM
I was very tempted to just remove the plastic and put up shade but its such a PITA.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on May 16, 2019, 08:08:09 AM
I was very tempted to just remove the plastic and put up shade but its such a PITA.

Yep.  Can't use it where I live - gusty prevailing winds and an occasion hail with the storms.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: brian on June 09, 2019, 12:36:51 PM
I have nearly all the bits now for the fogger setup.  Thanks for all the information, Spaugh.

I just got a TDS meter today.  My city tap water is 195ppm.  Water run through my wifes Brita pitcher is 182ppm, and costco bottled water is 18ppm.

I believe 200pm is the threshold for long term watering, so i should be okay there.  I assume 200 is way too high for continuous fogging though.  Im going to set it to only run at extreme temperatures and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on June 09, 2019, 05:18:03 PM
195 ppm is a blessing.  I wouldn't hesitate to use it straight thru the foggers and how many months out of the year will you need cooling in PA?  I'd install foggers that are serviceable too.  Right now we're in an early heat wave with a heat index of 100F as I write.  I'm out the door to drench and cool down my trees/floor/walls with cool well water for the 3rd time today.  My old home town of Corpus Christi hit a heat index of 121F the other day.  What a frickin' hot box that place is. 

We laugh down here when the late news shows you NE folks sweating a few days with highs around 100F in August before your next front blows thru in a day or two. 

I have nearly all the bits now for the fogger setup.  Thanks for all the information, Spaugh.

I just got a TDS meter today.  My city tap water is 195ppm.  Water run through my wifes Brita pitcher is 182ppm, and costco bottled water is 18ppm.

I believe 200pm is the threshold for long term watering, so i should be okay there.  I assume 200 is way too high for continuous fogging though.  Im going to set it to only run at extreme temperatures and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on June 09, 2019, 06:56:20 PM
I have nearly all the bits now for the fogger setup.  Thanks for all the information, Spaugh.

I just got a TDS meter today.  My city tap water is 195ppm.  Water run through my wifes Brita pitcher is 182ppm, and costco bottled water is 18ppm.

I believe 200pm is the threshold for long term watering, so i should be okay there.  I assume 200 is way too high for continuous fogging though.  Im going to set it to only run at extreme temperatures and see how it goes.
Id check the TDS meter wich i think its broked or decalibrated because bottled water 18 ppm  ;D.There is also the possibility that you measured the temperature by mistake,18 C ,instead of 18 ppm tds.In that case the tds meter its good.Low TDS water its bad for your health,thats why atletes and otther people that work phisical work ,are given carbonated water.The CO2 makes the water slightly accidic so that it helps dissolve more solids like calcium and magnesium.It probably has @ 700 ppm.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on June 09, 2019, 07:11:10 PM
Some of the bottled water is just RO water.  So its not surprising if its very low TDS. 

Your 200ppm is kind of marginal but will probably be ok to just use as often as you want.  You will get buildup on fans and vents after a while and get a good idea how the plants respond.  If you find that the pump makes too much mist and it cycles on and off(from a controller) then you should adjust the system to have less nozzles and more water going through the bypass circuit.  That water can be sent to a barrel and used for watering with.  Unless its super hot, your mist setup will most likely not need 10+ nozzles.  It may only need 4 or 5 to keep things cool. 
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: SeaWalnut on June 09, 2019, 07:20:54 PM
Even if you drink RO water ,its recomended to have a filter that adds TDS ( calcium,magnesium,etc) as the final stage,and should be replaced if the final TDS goes below 100.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: brian on June 09, 2019, 07:42:03 PM
I believe the meter is accurate.  I just retested and got 195 for my tap water and 21ppm for the costco water.  If you google for "costco water tds" there's a  youtube video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GcbB4faQWI) that comes up with 26ppm on their meter.  The costco water is "purified drinking water with minerals added for taste".

I'm going to try using it when greenhouse inside temp hits say 115F and see how often it runs.  This is common on sunny days with the exhaust fans running on low/med.   Last year I don't think I ever saw the inside temp go over 125F even on the hottest days which were just over 100F. 

I'm considering keeping small parrots in my greenhouse and I want to see if I can keep it cool enough for them.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: brian on June 29, 2019, 12:40:24 PM
I just replicated Spaugh's setup for the most part.  I have my misting system set up now.  Thanks for all the information.

(https://i.imgur.com/P9MKhAM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pSiLg59.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uTP217I.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: spaugh on June 29, 2019, 01:36:11 PM
 Awesome, hope it works well for you.  I am about to get mone up and running for summer so I can run it if the temps get crazy here.  Hasnt hardly broke 85 here much yet so havent had to use.  Been just opening up the hoop house and lwtting the wind blow through. Once its super hot and dry here it actually work better to close the HH and run the mist.  Works super good on those hot dry days.
Title: Re: Hoop house
Post by: Mark in Texas on July 01, 2019, 09:45:43 AM
Very nice Brian.

Awesome, hope it works well for you.  I am about to get mone up and running for summer so I can run it if the temps get crazy here.  Hasnt hardly broke 85 here much yet so havent had to use.  Been just opening up the hoop house and lwtting the wind blow through. Once its super hot and dry here it actually work better to close the HH and run the mist.  Works super good on those hot dry days.

I've been following your temps once in a while.  I find your highs of mid 70's just crazy (nice). 

My greenhouse hit 107F couple of days ago.  Amazing but everything looks fine.  I went thru 250 gals. of rainwater yesterday.

Stay cool and enjoy your 4th.  Here's our treat for the 4th, ice cold Gazpacho.  Everything home grown but the cukes - tomatoes, garlic, red onion, bell pepper, key lime.  Get your lycopene and vitamins, it's addicting stuff.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TKXKPgQv/Gazpacho.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TKXKPgQv)