Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Squam256 on January 16, 2018, 11:03:51 AM

Title: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: Squam256 on January 16, 2018, 11:03:51 AM
Recently I met a tree buying customer named Golam who had travelled across India trying different Mangos. He informed me that the Himsagar in Florida was not the same as the Himsagar in India, where it is extremely popular.

I had tried the Florida “Himsagar” before, and found it to be an excellent fruit. But Golam described Himsagar as a large round shaped fruit. The supposed imposter grafted in Florida was an oblong/enlongated mango.

Upon examining these photos from India referencing Himsagar online and comparing them to display photos from the various Mango events in south Florida, I’ve come to the conclusion that the Florida Himsagar contained in the collections of the USDA and Fairchild is indeed a mislabeled variety.




Florida:
(https://s10.postimg.cc/8u9p4gd9h/640396_C0-0_A1_A-4_F94-_A462-_C415_A66_A74_FB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8u9p4gd9h/)

Florida:
(https://s10.postimg.cc/6cxxx6ln9/66_ECE860-_A23_A-42_B0-87_D4-0_D52_AEC5_C167.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6cxxx6ln9/)


India:
(https://s10.postimg.cc/d3ef6ldxx/9_D282_D28-04_DE-4_E7_A-_BC38-14019541_DA75.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/d3ef6ldxx/)

India:
(https://s10.postimg.cc/nq88c11it/A14_A1742-0891-4_FD2-81_AA-8_D6701_FEF190.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/nq88c11it/)

India:
(https://s10.postimg.cc/teej2xdl1/CE0_B73_AD-6_DEA-4_C8_F-_A5_FA-_D8_ED49_D196_AC.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/teej2xdl1/)

India:
(https://s10.postimg.cc/xnj9531et/CF98_ADF9-_B183-4_EB9-_A270-4936_CE704_C00.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/xnj9531et/)

India:
(https://s10.postimg.cc/j4c43nsud/2_C6_BC06_C-_BD1_A-4_A75-84_CD-5391_F228_EC1_A.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/j4c43nsud/)

Florida again:
(https://s10.postimg.cc/6r3vabd2d/71_B99776-_BFF0-444_E-_B238-4_AEE2274_BD02.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6r3vabd2d/)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Cookie Monster on January 16, 2018, 11:47:49 AM
ha, that's curious. Thanks for the info. I think (imposter?) Himsagar has made it to california as well.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 16, 2018, 12:20:26 PM
The USDA accession (MIA 17568) states that the assigned name is unverified.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 16, 2018, 12:29:10 PM
The USDA accession (MIA 17568) states that the assigned name is unverified.

That tag also appears on a bunch of their other accessions including a number of well established Florida varieties.

The pdf info does state that it was collected in Pakistan in 1960. I don’t believe Himsagar is common there.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 16, 2018, 12:34:25 PM
It looks like Him Sagar is from the Eastern side of India, and not as far north as Pakistan.  But Pakistan was still divided in '61 so it might have been collected in East Pakistan (Bangladesh). 

I just love a good mystery :-)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 16, 2018, 12:46:43 PM
It looks like Him Sagar is from the Eastern side of India, and not as far north as Pakistan.  But Pakistan was still divided in '61 so it might have been collected in East Pakistan (Bangladesh). 

I just love a good mystery :-)

Initially I thought it might be from pre-Bangladesh East Pakistan But according to the accession info it was sent from Lahore. I bet it’s some random Pakistani mango.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 16, 2018, 12:59:23 PM
It is really strange.  I think you are correct, tho.  The USA and Indian fruits do look completely different.  Nonetheless, I will still grow an imposter Him Sagar at some point, if I can find space for it :-)  I hear it's an excellent fruit.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: mangokothiyan on January 16, 2018, 01:41:24 PM
Yes, the fruit from India and what we have here do look totally different. Some day, we will know what our "Himsagar" actually is.   

The original fruit is from West Bengal in India but it is not sold much at all in any other part of the country. According to a friend of mine from Kolkota, it is the favorite mango for most people in the state. They love it so much that people in other states do not get to taste it.


I have a Himsagar tree and have topworked it to two of my trees (Keitt and NDM #4). I got fruits off the topworked portion of my Keitt last year. Really good, but not in the top tier, at least for me. It is, however, very productive. Zills describes it as "very productive." 
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: KarenRei on January 16, 2018, 09:12:44 PM
Affordable, simple genetic tests can't come quickly enough...  ;)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: knlim000 on January 17, 2018, 01:20:12 AM
i got a florida himsagar.  Shall I rename it hersagar?
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: wslau on January 18, 2018, 01:19:39 AM
From what I gather from friends, a similar mystery exists for Florida's Son Pari and Langra Benarsi too.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 18, 2018, 08:20:10 AM
From what I gather from friends, a similar mystery exists for Florida's Son Pari and Langra Benarsi too.

Langra Benarasi for sure. However Sonpari appears to be the right one from photos from India.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 18, 2018, 10:36:05 AM
Very interesting. 

Are both of these naming issues a result of the same original sourcing?  I'm assuming that both of these varieties were sourced from the USDA's or Fairchild's collections......
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 18, 2018, 11:17:08 AM
Very interesting. 

Are both of these naming issues a result of the same original sourcing?  I'm assuming that both of these varieties were sourced from the USDA's or Fairchild's collections......

I don’t know what Langra Benarasi really is but it was likely brought in by the USDA (as was Himsagar).

Sonpari, as I mentioned above, appears to be the real thing. I believe that was introduced to Florida by Gary Zill
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 18, 2018, 12:45:57 PM
How interesting.  I have Langra which I'm fairly confident that it's not sourced from the USDA collection.  But it will be interesting to compare pics once it's big enough to fruit.
 Hopefully it'll be tasty....whatever it is.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 18, 2018, 12:59:47 PM
How interesting.  I have Langra which I'm fairly confident that it's not sourced from the USDA collection.  But it will be interesting to compare pics once it's big enough to fruit.
 Hopefully it'll be tasty....whatever it is.

Where did you obtain your Langra? I ask because there’s a guy on eBay selling fakes
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 18, 2018, 01:16:07 PM
I did purchase it on eBay about a year ago.  Now I'm worried.  Do you have a specific vendor name?
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 18, 2018, 01:35:44 PM
I did purchase it on eBay about a year ago.  Now I'm worried.  Do you have a specific vendor name?

GuavaKing I believe . Ormond Beach. Selling 1 gallon trees from Zill as rare Indian varieties.

Check out what fell out of our “Langra” pot we got from him:


(https://s10.postimg.cc/rawr9gxed/BB8834_D8-_C525-4695-_B2_C2-_E0_BD0735_CD89.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rawr9gxed/)

Not coincidentally the leaves looked like NDM #4 as well. I suspect the “Anwar Rataul “ we were sent is actually a Julie. Also a Banganpalli we got through him is clearly not a Banganapalli because it lacks the flat pointed leaves and thin stem.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 18, 2018, 01:57:47 PM
That's bad news.   I just emailed you.  Please call me when you get the chance.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: gozp on January 19, 2018, 01:08:29 AM
There may be many faked name varieties from florida such as these or possible mislabelling.

Here is a comparison.


(https://s17.postimg.cc/m4nhdh9xn/Screenshot_20180118-220429.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/m4nhdh9xn/)

(https://s17.postimg.cc/vcfpu7jkr/Screenshot_20180118-220435.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/vcfpu7jkr/)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 19, 2018, 09:50:53 AM
That fake Kesar might be a Pickering
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: behlgarden on January 19, 2018, 10:08:42 AM
From what I gather from friends, a similar mystery exists for Florida's Son Pari and Langra Benarsi too.

Langra Benarasi for sure. However Sonpari appears to be the right one from photos from India.

My source who is at the heart of Sonpari Growing region, a good friend of mine who has mango orchards confirmed looking at fruit picture and pictures of Florida sonpari leaves to be vastly different than what he grows in India in Gujrat. He will send us closeup pics of fruit and leaves in Summer for us to see. what he described was that majority of leaves tend to bend in the middle of vein.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 19, 2018, 10:30:31 AM
From what I gather from friends, a similar mystery exists for Florida's Son Pari and Langra Benarsi too.

Langra Benarasi for sure. However Sonpari appears to be the right one from photos from India.

My source who is at the heart of Sonpari Growing region, a good friend of mine who has mango orchards confirmed looking at fruit picture and pictures of Florida sonpari leaves to be vastly different than what he grows in India in Gujrat. He will send us closeup pics of fruit and leaves in Summer for us to see. what he described was that majority of leaves tend to bend in the middle of vein.
Hi Behlgarden,

Any chance that your friend can provide leaf close-ups of other Indian and Pakistani varieties also?  I would be very interested in seeing leaf detail of banganpalle, amrapali, anwar ratol, and the "arka" hybrids, as well as sindu and ratna :-)  I know that's a super-tall "pie-in-the-sky" kinda request :-)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: behlgarden on January 19, 2018, 10:52:59 AM
Chaunsa, yes, Anwar Ratol no because Anwar Ratol is from Pakistan not grown in India, India has Ratol that most dont grow
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 19, 2018, 11:03:40 AM
Thanks so much.  Any detail that he can send will be most appreciated
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: TnTrobbie on January 19, 2018, 12:19:42 PM
Puck. No wonder my "Langra" in 9B flowered so early being barely 2ft tall. It's a frickin Julie. I too bought from Guavaking on ebay. I have a Langra inground since 2014 from Zill (Fairchild extras 2013-2014) at 10B that I got fruit from already. I thought the leaves looked the same. ......Crap.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 19, 2018, 12:32:39 PM
Puck. No wonder my "Langra" in 9B flowered so early being barely 2ft tall. It's a frickin Julie. I too bought from Guavaking on ebay. I have a Langra inground since 2014 from Zill (Fairchild extras 2013-2014) at 10B that I got fruit from already. I thought the leaves looked the same. ......Crap.

That Fairchild-extra would be “Langra Benarasi” which isn’t the yellow/green, oblong shaped Langra as known in India and Pakistan.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: jbaqai on January 19, 2018, 01:33:35 PM
Quote
GuavaKing I believe . Ormond Beach. Selling 1 gallon trees from Zill as rare Indian varieties.

Check out what fell out of our “Langra” pot we got from him:


(https://s10.postimg.cc/rawr9gxed/BB8834_D8-_C525-4695-_B2_C2-_E0_BD0735_CD89.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rawr9gxed/)

Not coincidentally the leaves looked like NDM #4 as well. I suspect the “Anwar Rataul “ we were sent is actually a Julie. Also a Banganpalli we got through him is clearly not a Banganapalli because it lacks the flat pointed leaves and thin stem.

Oh No , I recently bought 5 plants from them , if that is the case we need to create separate thread to warn other forms members about them

Still can’t believe someone openly sell fake
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: zands on January 19, 2018, 02:00:44 PM
Here is ebay seller GuavaKing selling langra mango trees

https://www.ebay.com/itm/INDIAN-PAKSTANI-MANGO-TREE-LANGRA-GRAFTED-THE-BEST-MANGO-IN-THE-WORLD/112709675976?hash=item1a3e052bc8:g:VnkAAOSwBcpZfedz (https://www.ebay.com/itm/INDIAN-PAKSTANI-MANGO-TREE-LANGRA-GRAFTED-THE-BEST-MANGO-IN-THE-WORLD/112709675976?hash=item1a3e052bc8:g:VnkAAOSwBcpZfedz)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: jbaqai on January 19, 2018, 02:07:52 PM
Are we sure , that the seller is selling Zill mango as Pak/Indian mango

Don’t want to hurt someone business just on speculation
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 19, 2018, 02:13:11 PM
I don't think anyone's certain yet and, personally, I am not willing to ruin someone's reputation based on rumor.  But we do need to know for sure.  And I'm fairly certain we will quite soon.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 19, 2018, 03:34:41 PM
I’d also like to note that our “Langra” leaves and sap smell like Nam Doc Mai, in addition to having the NDM#4 tag fall out of the pot.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 19, 2018, 03:56:05 PM
I'm very concerned about the authenticity of the 11 plants I currently have in the ground from this vendor but I'm not going to light a torch and head off to the castle until I'm sure there's really a monster there.  I think the plan of action we discussed yesterday is best and if, as it appears, we've been defrauded, we can proceed to take action as a group.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: behlgarden on January 19, 2018, 04:42:09 PM
I'm very concerned about the authenticity of the 11 plants I currently have in the ground from this vendor but I'm not going to light a torch and head off to the castle until I'm sure there's really a monster there.  I think the plan of action we discussed yesterday is best and if, as it appears, we've been defrauded, we can proceed to take action as a group.

I also purchased two trees from Ebay from same guy "Guavaking". I also spoke with him and believe it or not, I paid $60/tree including shipping. Now shipping alone to CA costed him about $30 (it was priority Mail) no flat rate. Now factor in 15% to Ebay and 3% to Paypal, total 18% fees, $11 approx. so shipping plus fees = $41. he make $19 gross, now factor in his cost on growing/seedling etc.

The guy sounded very genuine, and this is his hobby and not real business. Again, I never met this guy but my gutt feeling is that we got genuine plants. Time will tell when we fruit though.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: wslau on January 19, 2018, 04:43:10 PM
From what I gather from friends, a similar mystery exists for Florida's Son Pari and Langra Benarsi too.

Langra Benarasi for sure. However Sonpari appears to be the right one from photos from India.

My source who is at the heart of Sonpari Growing region, a good friend of mine who has mango orchards confirmed looking at fruit picture and pictures of Florida sonpari leaves to be vastly different than what he grows in India in Gujrat. He will send us closeup pics of fruit and leaves in Summer for us to see. what he described was that majority of leaves tend to bend in the middle of vein.

Below is a pic of the Son Pari grafted by Zills.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/9tfmts6ad/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9tfmts6ad/)


(https://s18.postimg.cc/ii7txzcqd/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ii7txzcqd/)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: DuncanYoung on January 19, 2018, 05:03:10 PM
And, after selling the first tree or two via eBay, any other trees wanted, he declines your offer and contacts buyer outside of eBay and request that you pay him directly to his PayPal account, cutting eBay out of their percentage.

Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: behlgarden on January 19, 2018, 05:31:42 PM
From what I gather from friends, a similar mystery exists for Florida's Son Pari and Langra Benarsi too.

Langra Benarasi for sure. However Sonpari appears to be the right one from photos from India.

My source who is at the heart of Sonpari Growing region, a good friend of mine who has mango orchards confirmed looking at fruit picture and pictures of Florida sonpari leaves to be vastly different than what he grows in India in Gujrat. He will send us closeup pics of fruit and leaves in Summer for us to see. what he described was that majority of leaves tend to bend in the middle of vein.

Below is a pic of the Son Pari grafted by Zills.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/9tfmts6ad/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9tfmts6ad/)

this was ID as fake and not sonpari by the grower in  India. yikes!
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: pineislander on January 19, 2018, 08:14:11 PM
Someone needs to go inspect the seller's operation. It shouldn't be hard to tell what is going on with a close inspection.
He is saying a 3 year old tree produces "hundreds of mangoes every year" which sounds pretty suspicious to me.

Plus the photo he uses for his Sindhri mango is ripped from somebody else for some reason.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/INDIAN-PAKSTANI-MANGO-TREE-SINDHRI-MANGO-GRAFTED-THE-BEST-MANGO-IN-THE-WORLD/122915530678?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44040%26meid%3D015700352de34bf88bf9b81a8f3deaa1%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112709675976&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/INDIAN-PAKSTANI-MANGO-TREE-SINDHRI-MANGO-GRAFTED-THE-BEST-MANGO-IN-THE-WORLD/122915530678?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44040%26meid%3D015700352de34bf88bf9b81a8f3deaa1%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112709675976&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/11045662@N06/3284397492 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/11045662@N06/3284397492)

In fact, out of the five I've checked all of his pictures have been ripped from one source or the other.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: DuncanYoung on January 19, 2018, 08:30:44 PM
Lives in a gated community, can't get in.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: gozp on January 19, 2018, 11:43:38 PM
From what I gather from friends, a similar mystery exists for Florida's Son Pari and Langra Benarsi too.

Langra Benarasi for sure. However Sonpari appears to be the right one from photos from India.

My source who is at the heart of Sonpari Growing region, a good friend of mine who has mango orchards confirmed looking at fruit picture and pictures of Florida sonpari leaves to be vastly different than what he grows in India in Gujrat. He will send us closeup pics of fruit and leaves in Summer for us to see. what he described was that majority of leaves tend to bend in the middle of vein.

Below is a pic of the Son Pari grafted by Zills.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/9tfmts6ad/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9tfmts6ad/)

this was ID as fake and not sonpari by the grower in  India. yikes!
From what I gather from friends, a similar mystery exists for Florida's Son Pari and Langra Benarsi too.

Langra Benarasi for sure. However Sonpari appears to be the right one from photos from India.

My source who is at the heart of Sonpari Growing region, a good friend of mine who has mango orchards confirmed looking at fruit picture and pictures of Florida sonpari leaves to be vastly different than what he grows in India in Gujrat. He will send us closeup pics of fruit and leaves in Summer for us to see. what he described was that majority of leaves tend to bend in the middle of vein.

Below is a pic of the Son Pari grafted by Zills.

(https://s18.postimg.cc/9tfmts6ad/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9tfmts6ad/)


(https://s18.postimg.cc/ii7txzcqd/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ii7txzcqd/)

i wonder if the fake son pari is good?

so if this son pari is fake, what is the real variety  of this fake one?
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: jbaqai on January 20, 2018, 03:50:12 AM
Got an idea , may be worthwhile to follow up

Senior member from this forum, living close to the buyer , can ask for walk-in tour for their nursery and business

They will get access to our community and we will get our authentication
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Mugenia on January 20, 2018, 05:36:27 AM
True Indian mangoes are round and small. I have seen and eaten a lot of them in the Philippines. They are good when eaten green.

Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: pineislander on January 20, 2018, 06:54:18 AM
The photo that Guavaking is using for "Langra"mango was ripped from a gardenweb thread about an unknown seedling:
To find source of photos save photo to computer, use Google image reverse search.
(https://s17.postimg.cc/j6d6yc7h7/guavaking_tree.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/j6d6yc7h7/)


https://www.ebay.com/itm/INDIAN-PAKSTANI-MANGO-TREE-LANGRA-GRAFTED-THE-BEST-MANGO-IN-THE-WORLD/112709675976?hash=item1a3e052bc8:g:VnkAAOSwBcpZfedz (https://www.ebay.com/itm/INDIAN-PAKSTANI-MANGO-TREE-LANGRA-GRAFTED-THE-BEST-MANGO-IN-THE-WORLD/112709675976?hash=item1a3e052bc8:g:VnkAAOSwBcpZfedz)

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2185649/seedling-mango-tree-success-in-jacksonville-fl (https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2185649/seedling-mango-tree-success-in-jacksonville-fl)



Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 20, 2018, 10:03:48 AM
When asked for a photo of his “Banganpalli”, he supplied this:
(https://s17.postimg.cc/q3byv0ncb/D8_D52_AE2-84_E0-4_EEA-_B913-_E325302_D7_F6_F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q3byv0ncb/)

This is clearly NOT Banganpalli. This is what Banganapalli looks like. Different, flatter leaf type and very thin stems:



(https://s10.postimg.cc/n15zcxw4l/761_B7_A8_A-63_BB-4_A49-_AA84-1_D26_B98_C58_A6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/n15zcxw4l/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/l9d0i1khh/A653_FA07-_B0_BE-4_D41-_A6_C7-_A3_C039255_D68.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/l9d0i1khh/)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: gozp on January 20, 2018, 11:14:12 AM
True Indian mangoes are round and small. I have seen and eaten a lot of them in the Philippines. They are good when eaten green.

There are many indian/ pakkstan mango varieties.
And the ndian mangoes they call in the Philippines is actually Katchamita variety.

To this date, it os unclear where katchamita came from. There are rumors that the seedling came from india. Hence, getting the indian name.

If u want real Indian varieties get it from India/ Paki or someone thats legit.

So far a major Florida propagator sends fake indian varieties? Hmmm
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: knlim000 on January 20, 2018, 11:20:41 AM
When asked for a photo of his “Banganpalli”, he supplied this:
(https://s17.postimg.cc/q3byv0ncb/D8_D52_AE2-84_E0-4_EEA-_B913-_E325302_D7_F6_F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q3byv0ncb/)

This is clearly NOT Banganpalli. This is what Banganapalli looks like. Different, flatter leaf type and very thin stems:



I noticed the house in the background does not look like a typical house/farm in india.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 20, 2018, 11:50:39 AM
When asked for a photo of his “Banganpalli”, he supplied this:
(https://s17.postimg.cc/q3byv0ncb/D8_D52_AE2-84_E0-4_EEA-_B913-_E325302_D7_F6_F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q3byv0ncb/)

This is clearly NOT Banganpalli. This is what Banganapalli looks like. Different, flatter leaf type and very thin stems:



I noticed the house in the background does not look like a typical house/farm in india.

This seller is located in Florida . But the tree clearly isn’t what he claims it to be.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 20, 2018, 02:56:34 PM
True Indian mangoes are round and small. I have seen and eaten a lot of them in the Philippines. They are good when eaten green.

There are many indian/ pakkstan mango varieties.
And the ndian mangoes they call in the Philippines is actually Katchamita variety.

To this date, it os unclear where katchamita came from. There are rumors that the seedling came from india. Hence, getting the indian name.

If u want real Indian varieties get it from India/ Paki or someone thats legit.

So far a major Florida propagator sends fake indian varieties? Hmmm

Much easier said than done.  There is a an import ban on Mangifera species plants and budwood to the USA due to the possibility of introducing the seed weevil.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: zands on January 20, 2018, 03:28:41 PM
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Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: jbaqai on January 20, 2018, 03:33:20 PM
Funny thing is that his listing is always for 1 plants per variety’, but magically they are never out of stock

Plus the pic provided for the budwood tree (now that we known is fake) , can’t produce that many budwood , plus there is no sign of budwood taken

Now getting more suspicious about his whole operation
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Guanabanus on January 20, 2018, 06:15:17 PM
There are several variations of Nam Docmai; many "Turpentines; many "Haden" (seedlings of 'Haden' called the real thing);  et cetera.

Just because a grower in India identifies a tree as a particular named variety does not automatically
mean that other growers all across India will necessarily agree with that identification.

I recall a lecture where Dr. Richard Campbell, responding to a question about 'Maha Chanok', answered, "Which one?!  I have THREE DIFFERENT "Maha Chanoks"."

IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO ALLEGE ANY RECENT MISBEHAVIOR OR CONFUSION as the source of such differences, as in fact, many regional variants of plant materials, independent origins of same names, adoption of attractive names heard from elsewhere, seedling propagation under variety names, and so on, have been going on for generations.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 20, 2018, 08:59:35 PM
There are several variations of Nam Docmai; many "Turpentines; many "Haden" (seedlings of 'Haden' called the real thing);  et cetera.

Just because a grower in India identifies a tree as a particular named variety does not automatically
mean that other growers all across India will necessarily agree with that identification.

I recall a lecture where Dr. Richard Campbell, responding to a question about 'Maha Chanok', answered, "Which one?!  I have THREE DIFFERENT "Maha Chanoks"."

IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO ALLEGE ANY RECENT MISBEHAVIOR OR CONFUSION as the source of such differences, as in fact, many regional variants of plant materials, independent origins of same names, adoption of attractive names heard from elsewhere, seedling propagation under variety names, and so on, have been going on for generations.

Hi Har,

I agree with your assessment. 
 
I personally have 11 plants from this vendor and, although I was furious initially, I've thought about it for a few days and come to the conclusion that, for better or worse, I now have 11 mystery trees.  They may be good cultivars; they may be bad.  They may even be the cultivars I was told they were. 

Worst case scenario, I've got some expensive root stock and an opportunity to brush up on my paltry grafting skills.  Best case scenario, I'm eating Indian mangoes in a couple of years.  Either way, I now have 11 additional varieties in my yard that I didn't have before and for me that can only be a good thing.

Scott
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 20, 2018, 09:09:37 PM
There are several variations of Nam Docmai; many "Turpentines; many "Haden" (seedlings of 'Haden' called the real thing);  et cetera.

Just because a grower in India identifies a tree as a particular named variety does not automatically
mean that other growers all across India will necessarily agree with that identification.

I recall a lecture where Dr. Richard Campbell, responding to a question about 'Maha Chanok', answered, "Which one?!  I have THREE DIFFERENT "Maha Chanoks"."

IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO ALLEGE ANY RECENT MISBEHAVIOR OR CONFUSION as the source of such differences, as in fact, many regional variants of plant materials, independent origins of same names, adoption of attractive names heard from elsewhere, seedling propagation under variety names, and so on, have been going on for generations.

If you bought grafted Nam Doc Mai trees from Zill HP Plants, then resold them to people as “”Langra” Mango from India, would you or would you not be committing fraud?

Because that’s what this eBay guy appears to be doing.

I’d say there’s a pretty big difference between that, and a nursery being provided budwood of a mislabeled variety from the Department of Agiriculture and propagating it under that name. The latter is an innocent mistake, but the former is not.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Guanabanus on January 20, 2018, 10:08:11 PM
Squam, of course I agree with those points.

I was reacting to someone else's suggestion that 'Sonpari' from Zill's wasn't the true one because someone in India looked at a picture of leaves and made some sweeping negative statement.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 20, 2018, 10:24:11 PM
Squam, of course I agree with those points.

I was reacting to someone else's suggestion that 'Sonpari' from Zill's wasn't the true one because someone in India looked at a picture of leaves and made some sweeping negative statement.


I actually think the Son Pari from Zill is the real Son Pari based on pics of the fruit, along with this description from India which describes it pretty spot on:

http://www.nau.in/pagefiles/112_Mango%20hybrids.pdf (http://www.nau.in/pagefiles/112_Mango%20hybrids.pdf)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 20, 2018, 11:05:36 PM
Squam,

To be clear, I am not furious anymore but that doesn't mean I don't want answers and a resolution. 
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: jbaqai on January 21, 2018, 01:03:07 PM
Well in my case , I felt betrayed
Those Pakistani mango plants were getting special treatment

Brought them inside my master bedroom next to sunny windows for winter , and not to forget that they are in clay pot ( heavy ) and my bedroom is at first floor

And I don’t have to mentioned master bedroom = wife not happy

So all this effort for Florida mango:(
They should be out in greenhouse,with rest of my collection

Not fair
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: JF on January 21, 2018, 02:57:28 PM
This is unfortunate I was recommended this seller as legit.
Behl is correct I’ve seen pix of the real sonpari and the leaves tell the story
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 21, 2018, 03:05:27 PM
This is unfortunate I was recommended this seller as legit.
Behl is correct I’ve seen pix of the real sonpari and the leaves tell the story

Let’s see photos of the leaves then.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: JF on January 21, 2018, 03:10:57 PM
This is unfortunate I was recommended this seller as legit.
Behl is correct I’ve seen pix of the real sonpari and the leaves tell the story

Let’s see photos of the leaves then.

I hope Behl shares then
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 21, 2018, 05:49:19 PM
OK, I'm confused now.  Which vendor and plants are we talking about?  The eBay guy didn't sell Son Pari - at least not to my knowledge.  Is the assertion now that a Son Pari plant from Zills is mis-identified? 
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: TnTrobbie on January 21, 2018, 08:07:06 PM
I guess well see in 3-4years when they bear fruit. For the record, I ordered 3 trees from this vendor (Anwar, Sindhri, and Langra). When I got them, the Langra was consistent with the mature tree I had at another location. And the others didn't remind me of any cv. I'm familiar with- even Julie. I looked really hard. The grafts looked really clean though- like big nursery operation clean. Oh well...
(https://s26.postimg.cc/y6kyqwp1x/guavaking.jpg)
I bought from him before Thanksgiving. Now I see he has sellling Banganapalle and Chaunsa. amd using the same "mature tree" photo for both cvs.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 21, 2018, 08:42:11 PM
I guess well see in 3-4years when they bear fruit. For the record, I ordered 3 trees from this vendor (Anwar, Sindhri, and Langra). When I got them, the Langra was consistent with the mature tree I had at another location. And the others didn't remind me of any cv. I'm familiar with- even Julie. I looked really hard. The grafts looked really clean though- like big nursery operation clean. Oh well...
(https://s26.postimg.cc/y6kyqwp1x/guavaking.jpg)
I bought from him before Thanksgiving. Now I see he has sellling Banganapalle and Chaunsa. amd using the same "mature tree" photo for both cvs.

The grafts look clean because they’re T-buds. Guess who wholesells T-budded 1 gallon mangos....
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 21, 2018, 08:56:40 PM
I guess well see in 3-4years when they bear fruit. For the record, I ordered 3 trees from this vendor (Anwar, Sindhri, and Langra). When I got them, the Langra was consistent with the mature tree I had at another location. And the others didn't remind me of any cv. I'm familiar with- even Julie. I looked really hard. The grafts looked really clean though- like big nursery operation clean. Oh well...
(https://s26.postimg.cc/y6kyqwp1x/guavaking.jpg)
I bought from him before Thanksgiving. Now I see he has sellling Banganapalle and Chaunsa. amd using the same "mature tree" photo for both cvs.

The grafts look clean because they’re T-buds. Guess who wholesells T-budded 1 gallon mangos....

Squam,

Have you had any opportunity to speak with that wholesaler?  I'd really like to know what I've got planted in my yard.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 21, 2018, 10:00:39 PM
I guess well see in 3-4years when they bear fruit. For the record, I ordered 3 trees from this vendor (Anwar, Sindhri, and Langra). When I got them, the Langra was consistent with the mature tree I had at another location. And the others didn't remind me of any cv. I'm familiar with- even Julie. I looked really hard. The grafts looked really clean though- like big nursery operation clean. Oh well...
(https://s26.postimg.cc/y6kyqwp1x/guavaking.jpg)
I bought from him before Thanksgiving. Now I see he has sellling Banganapalle and Chaunsa. amd using the same "mature tree" photo for both cvs.

The grafts look clean because they’re T-buds. Guess who wholesells T-budded 1 gallon mangos....

Squam,

Have you had any opportunity to speak with that wholesaler?  I'd really like to know what I've got planted in my yard.

Tomorrow if I have the time.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: jbaqai on January 22, 2018, 12:31:14 AM
May be let them know about this forums
It will be good to hear their part of the story
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 22, 2018, 06:35:19 AM
I guess well see in 3-4years when they bear fruit. For the record, I ordered 3 trees from this vendor (Anwar, Sindhri, and Langra). When I got them, the Langra was consistent with the mature tree I had at another location. And the others didn't remind me of any cv. I'm familiar with- even Julie. I looked really hard. The grafts looked really clean though- like big nursery operation clean. Oh well...
(https://s26.postimg.cc/y6kyqwp1x/guavaking.jpg)
I bought from him before Thanksgiving. Now I see he has sellling Banganapalle and Chaunsa. amd using the same "mature tree" photo for both cvs.

The grafts look clean because they’re T-buds. Guess who wholesells T-budded 1 gallon mangos....

Squam,

Have you had any opportunity to speak with that wholesaler?  I'd really like to know what I've got planted in my yard.

Tomorrow if I have the time.

Thank you.  At least that will bring some resolution.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: behlgarden on January 22, 2018, 12:20:36 PM
Squam, of course I agree with those points.

I was reacting to someone else's suggestion that 'Sonpari' from Zill's wasn't the true one because someone in India looked at a picture of leaves and made some sweeping negative statement.


I actually think the Son Pari from Zill is the real Son Pari based on pics of the fruit, along with this description from India which describes it pretty spot on:

[url]http://www.nau.in/pagefiles/112_Mango%20hybrids.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.nau.in/pagefiles/112_Mango%20hybrids.pdf[/url])


If you dont mind sharing, can you please post pics of new growth that is tender, new growth, and old matured leaves? I know for fact that one we got from Zills/Noris does not look like the one from India, however I want to see how different is ours compared to yours. I am waiting on closeup shots from India for your knowledge and will post here once I receive it.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 22, 2018, 01:25:24 PM
The National Mango Database has a lot of useful information and fruit/leaf photos of Indian and Pakistani varieties.  Here's a link.  I didn't notice Son Pari, but the list isn't alphabetical so I may have missed it:  http://mangifera.res.in/ (http://mangifera.res.in/)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: JF on January 22, 2018, 01:40:23 PM
My Fake Sonpari
(https://s14.postimg.cc/kq4vk1j3h/C2102_BD6-77_F3-4_F85-_A9_B2-_C4_C6_FB2_ADBD3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/kq4vk1j3h/)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 22, 2018, 02:41:28 PM
I can now confirm that the trees GuavaKing is selling on eBay are fakes.

Enjoy your Alphonso, Julie and Nam doc Mai trees.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: JF on January 22, 2018, 02:48:03 PM
I can now confirm that the trees GuavaKing is selling on eBay are fakes.

Enjoy your Alphonso, Julie and Nam doc Mai trees.

Alex this is actually from Noris
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 22, 2018, 03:20:48 PM
I can now confirm that the trees GuavaKing is selling on eBay are fakes.

Enjoy your Alphonso, Julie and Nam doc Mai trees.

Alex this is actually from Noris

I was talking about the Langra, Anwar Ratol, Chausa and Banganpalli trees being sold on ebay by the guy in Ormond Beach
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: noochka1 on January 22, 2018, 03:26:50 PM
I can now confirm that the trees GuavaKing is selling on eBay are fakes.

Enjoy your Alphonso, Julie and Nam doc Mai trees.
Thanks a lot for getting that information, Alex.  Even though the news totally sucks, it's better to know for sure.  I've filed with PayPal for a refund.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: Squam256 on January 22, 2018, 03:32:58 PM
I can now confirm that the trees GuavaKing is selling on eBay are fakes.

Enjoy your Alphonso, Julie and Nam doc Mai trees.
Thanks a lot for getting that information, Alex.  Even though the news totally sucks, it's better to know for sure.  I've filed with PayPal for a refund.

No problem. Hopefully other people who were scammed by this guy can register complaints too. I’m notifying the Facebook Mango group as well.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: jbaqai on January 22, 2018, 06:59:36 PM
This is big
Can you pls share the details , how you come to this conclusion

I need this information to start my refund from Ebay or PayPal
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: pineislander on January 22, 2018, 07:15:58 PM
This is big
Can you pls share the details , how you come to this conclusion

I need this information to start my refund from Ebay or PayPal
Yes, it would be good to do a complete write up of the facts of the matter. This thread runs 4 pages and someone arriving here is likely to become very confused.
Standard question which need to be explained are who, what, where, how, and why, with timeline.

One thing I see when looking at the seller's feedback if that the claimed indian variety mangos have been sold for over a year.
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&userid=guavaking&iid=112709675976&de=off&items=25&interval=0&searchInterval=30&mPg=16&keyword=112709675976&page=5
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: Squam256 on January 22, 2018, 07:42:34 PM
This is big
Can you pls share the details , how you come to this conclusion

I need this information to start my refund from Ebay or PayPal

Send me your email address
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: DuncanYoung on January 22, 2018, 10:15:47 PM
I have sent the Fraudster a letter requesting a full refund.  Legal
Action will be taken if he doesn't oblige.  He will be reported to eBay, PayPal and the United States Postal Service for mail fraud if a prompt refund isn't received. 
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: Squam256 on January 22, 2018, 11:49:50 PM
So here’s the recap:

Last month I was told someone was selling grafted trees of several rare Indian and Pakistani mangos on eBay . Upon looking I found a seller named “GuavaKing” listing grafted trees of Langra, Anwar Ratol, Chausa, and Banganpalli. These varieties are not grafted by ANY of the major mango-producing nurseries in the United States, making them fairly highly sought after.

I inquired to the seller asking him where he obtained these varieties, but didn’t get a response. My friend Jack (DuncanYoung) did get a response from the seller who claimed to have the trees in his yard, and ordered several.

He received the trees in the mail and I was immediately suspicious about 2 things: the Banganapalli, a variety I’ve had exposure to and whose foliage I was very familiar with, was not a Banganpalli. DuncanYoung requested a photo of the man’s Banganapalli. He provided a photo of a small tree that clearly was not Banganpalli based on the foliage. Banganpalli produces long, flat , pointed leaves and has extremely thin stems. The tree in the photo had short, stout curled or wavy leaves, and regular thick stems.

The second red flag was that the trees (in 1 gallon pots) were not the cleft or veneer grafts you would see from an amateur, but “T” buds that only 2 nurseries in Florida know how to do with mango. And only one of those wholesells them as 1 gallons: Zill High Performance Plants.

I then observed that one of the small trees Labelled “Anwar Ratal” appeared to be a Julie mango. Julie has distinctive leaves, and tends to flower as a 1 gallon size tree. Coincidentally, this tree was also flowering and had inflorescence resembling Julie too.

Later while stepping these 1 gallon trees up to 3 gallon, a small yellow tag dropped out of one of the pots of the “Langra” tree: the tag, pictured in the thread, reads “NDM #4” (Nam Doc Mai #4). The foliage on this tree appeared to be that of NDM, and the sap smell was identical too. I immediately recognized this as a small tag used by Zill High Performance Plants to label their young grafted trees. I knew then the guy was obtaining the trees from Zill, and selling them under different names, knowing full well he could get high prices for 1 gallon trees under these false names.

(https://s10.postimg.cc/h2tlieo9h/77_E986_E6-3_F9_F-4_E24-9_C51-315_D320_A6_FC0.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/h2tlieo9h/)

DuncanYoung then emailed GuavaKing asking about the tag. He responded claiming no knowledge of it and claimed that he was obtaining his pots from a local garden center. I can supply email proof of this. He evidently also fed this lie to other buyers.

Forum member Scott then informed me last week that he had purchased 12 trees from GuavaKing. He also knew his real name. This was different than the name that he had shipped the trees under: , but both names were associated with the same companies.

As final confirmation of this fraud, I went into Zill and was able to ascertain that this man had indeed purchased in 2017 50 Alphonso, 50 Nam Doc Mai, 50 Julie, and 50 Himsagar, all as 1 gallon trees. I suspect he also purchased trees in 2016 under a different name, but did not search for additional invoices. It was implied he may have purchased Lancetilla as well.

This person is a disgusting scam artist, a thief and a liar. What he is doing is completely illegal, and he should be exposed for it.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: jbaqai on January 23, 2018, 12:16:38 AM
Really appreciate your due diligence here

This post needed to permanent post for sometime on this forum , to maker sure that rest of forum read it 

Hopefully from now on, no one will be deceived by him

I filled a complained on PayPal , will let you know of any outcome
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: knlim000 on January 23, 2018, 12:26:14 AM
Does police get involve with this type of fraud?  He should be locked up in jail for deceiving people and stealing money from them.  Those trees are not cheap!!!

So here’s the recap:

Last month I was told someone was selling grafted trees of several rare Indian and Pakistani mangos on eBay . Upon looking I found a seller named “GuavaKing” listing grafted trees of Langra, Anwar Ratol, Chausa, and Banganpalli. These varieties are not grafted by ANY of the major mango-producing nurseries in the United States, making them fairly highly sought after.

I inquired to the seller asking him where he obtained these varieties, but didn’t get a response. My friend Jack (DuncanYoung) did get a response from the seller who claimed to have the trees in his yard, and ordered several.

He received the trees in the mail and I was immediately suspicious about 2 things: the Banganapalli, a variety I’ve had exposure to and whose foliage I was very familiar with, was not a Banganpalli. DuncanYoung requested a photo of the man’s Banganapalli. He provided a photo of a small tree that clearly was not Banganpalli based on the foliage. Banganpalli produces long, flat , pointed leaves and has extremely thin stems. The tree in the photo had short, stout curled or wavy leaves, and regular thick stems.

The second red flag was that the trees (in 1 gallon pots) were not the cleft or veneer grafts you would see from an amateur, but “T” buds that only 2 nurseries in Florida know how to do with mango. And only one of those wholesells them as 1 gallons: Zill High Performance Plants.

I then observed that one of the small trees Labelled “Anwar Ratal” appeared to be a Julie mango. Julie has distinctive leaves, and tends to flower as a 1 gallon size tree. Coincidentally, this tree was also flowering and had inflorescence resembling Julie too.

Later while stepping these 1 gallon trees up to 3 gallon, a small yellow tag dropped out of one of the pots of the “Langra” tree: the tag, pictured in the thread, reads “NDM #4” (Nam Doc Mai #4). The foliage on this tree appeared to be that of NDM, and the sap smell was identical too. I immediately recognized this as a small tag used by Zill High Performance Plants to label their young grafted trees. I knew then the guy was obtaining the trees from Zill, and selling them under different names, knowing full well he could get high prices for 1 gallon trees under these false names.

(https://s10.postimg.cc/h2tlieo9h/77_E986_E6-3_F9_F-4_E24-9_C51-315_D320_A6_FC0.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/h2tlieo9h/)

DuncanYoung then emailed GuavaKing asking about the tag. He responded claiming no knowledge of it and claimed that he was obtaining his pots from a local garden center. I can supply email proof of this. He evidently also fed this lie to other buyers.

Forum member Scott then informed me last week that he had purchased 12 trees from GuavaKing. He also knew his real name: Babar Majeed. This was different than the name that he had shipped the trees under but both names were associated with the same companies.

As final confirmation of this fraud, I went into Zill and was able to ascertain that this man had indeed purchased in 2017 50 Alphonso, 50 Nam Doc Mai, 50 Julie, and 50 Himsagar, all as 1 gallon trees. I suspect he also purchased trees in 2016 under a different name, but did not search for additional invoices. It was implied he may have purchased Lancetilla as well.

This person is a disgusting scam artist, a thief and a liar. What he is doing is completely illegal, and he should be exposed for it.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: JF on January 23, 2018, 12:33:21 AM
Great detective work Squam. We bought anwar and chausan from this person last year and the unique T bud grafts caught my attention. I told my friend whoever grafted these trees must have worked for Zill. I was assure this guy was legit. According to your research I have a Julie and Alfonso or a  Himsagar which I have no interest in growing.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: Squam256 on January 23, 2018, 12:36:13 AM
Really appreciate your due diligence here

This post needed to permanent post for sometime on this forum , to maker sure that rest of forum read it 

Hopefully from now on, no one will be deceived by him

I filled a complained on PayPal , will let you know of any outcome

Yes there should be a separate post and one in the buy/sell section as well. I’ll discuss with Murahilin about how best to handle it since the eBay fraud discussion is clearly distinct from the general Himsagar issue and Sonpari question.

As far as the research, it’s no problem. After all We got scammed too.

And I’d like to say that Gary Zill and the folks at Zill HP Plants showed great integrity in assisting at coming to the bottom of this. They could have done nothing in the interest of continuing to sell trees to this guy, but were honest and upfront and actually pretty outraged that anyone would do this. We’re really blessed to have them in this industry.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: OCchris1 on January 23, 2018, 02:20:41 AM
I would like to thank DuncanYoung and Squam 256 for their tenacity in this caper. I have had my index finger on the "Buy" button for this seller for quite a while. Good thing I am highly indecisive/highly skeptical! Thank you for your effort and hard work- saved me a pile of cash! Take care, Chris
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: EJO8 on January 23, 2018, 02:49:47 AM
Squam that is some legendary detective work. Thanks for putting all that work into exposing this ebay seller, I know I have thought from buying him in the past.

Eric
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: pineislander on January 23, 2018, 05:58:51 AM

Forum member Scott then informed me last week that he had purchased 12 trees from GuavaKing. He also knew his real name: Babar Majeed. This was different than the name that he had shipped the trees under: , but both names were associated with the same companies.


Adila is a female first name.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: behlgarden on January 23, 2018, 10:38:08 AM
its a shame that he did that. oh well, keep us posted on refunds etc. I will topwork mine, Glad i put both in same hole.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: johnb51 on January 23, 2018, 02:30:11 PM
A crook and a total A-hole!  Thanks for exposing him.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: knlim000 on January 23, 2018, 08:49:29 PM
lesson learned. never buy from eBay or amazon. There are lots of crooks hidden behind eBay and amazon.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: Bush2Beach on January 24, 2018, 01:17:12 PM
Thank You Squam! F the Scammers. Please post this Loser's contact info if possible.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: JF on January 24, 2018, 01:36:02 PM
The Zill family is a pillar in the mango community. I hope we can resolve the sonpari mystery when behl get's more pix from his contacts in India.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: PltdWorld on January 24, 2018, 02:10:56 PM
Why does this ebay seller only have ONE (1) negative feedback in the last 12 months?  Leaving negative feedback will also help others avoid the same debacle.


(https://s18.postimg.cc/six3k97lh/Guava_King_ebay_rating.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/six3k97lh/)
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: skhan on January 24, 2018, 02:41:02 PM
Why does this ebay seller only have ONE (1) negative feedback in the last 12 months?  Leaving negative feedback will also help others avoid the same debacle.


(https://s18.postimg.cc/six3k97lh/Guava_King_ebay_rating.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/six3k97lh/)

I think it would be hard for the average buyer to know the minute differences between the varieties.
I definitely wouldn't.
One probably won't get a fruit for a few years after and he may re-open his business under a different name by then.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: Squam256 on January 24, 2018, 03:32:09 PM
Why does this ebay seller only have ONE (1) negative feedback in the last 12 months?  Leaving negative feedback will also help others avoid the same debacle.


(https://s18.postimg.cc/six3k97lh/Guava_King_ebay_rating.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/six3k97lh/)

I think it would be hard for the average buyer to know the minute differences between the varieties.
I definitely wouldn't.
One probably won't get a fruit for a few years after and he may re-open his business under a different name by then.

Yup.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: Squam256 on January 24, 2018, 03:39:15 PM
Thank You Squam! F the Scammers. Please post this Loser's contact info if possible.

Phone number on his ads: 810-348-8292

I called him other day, he was quite defiant. Initially claimed he had all his trees grafted in Ormond Beach, even though I have an invoice proving otherwise. He then got angry and dropped a lot of F bombs.

He’s changed his story several times with different people apparently.
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: jbaqai on January 24, 2018, 03:43:20 PM
Thank You Squam! F the Scammers. Please post this Loser's contact info if possible.

Phone number on his ads: 810-348-8292

I called him other day, he was quite defiant. Initially claimed he had all his trees grafted in Ormond Beach, even though I have an invoice proving otherwise. He then got angry and dropped a lot of F bombs.

He’s changed his story several times with different people apparently.

F words.
red flag right there , any genuine business person will never use them with customers 
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida
Post by: DeeMango on January 24, 2018, 05:50:24 PM
Lives in a gated community, can't get in.


So I guess crime does pay.  >:(
Title: Re: The Mystery of the “Himsagar” mango in Florida. Also, EBAY MANGO FRAUD EXPOSED!
Post by: knlim000 on January 24, 2018, 09:25:44 PM
can't get in and can't get out I hope.