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Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 13, 2018, 10:59:27 AM

Title: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 13, 2018, 10:59:27 AM
Hello fellow fruit tree enthusiasts. I've been thinking of cutting back my grafted pantin mamey tree. In the picture, there are two possible cutting locations that I'm thinking about in order to make the tree more bushy and more wind resistant. This tree went through Hurricane Irma at this current size (90 mph gusts) like a champ and it still has plenty of space between the tree and the power lines. I would like to eliminate the chance of having to use an extremely tall ladder to harvest the fruit when the tree finally decides to produce fruit and maybe make the tree more productive. It seems to only produce isolated clusters of flowers and a small set of baby fruit in a few areas of the tree. The tree was planted as a 7 gallon tree back in the fall of 2012 so it has been a bit more than 7 years. The tree grows like a weed and it seems to be an upright vertical grower. The number 2 mark in the picture was the height of the tree back in 2012. I will be using a product called Tree bandage to seal the wound. I would like to read some of your opinions on this matter. Here are the three options:
1.) Leave the tree alone.
2.) Cut it at the number 2 mark.
3.) Cut it at the number 1 mark.

You probably need to zoom in to clearly see the marks I made.


(https://s10.postimg.cc/3mqmxqfx1/pantin2heightreduction.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3mqmxqfx1/)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 13, 2018, 12:01:04 PM
That thing is huge. Has it produced yet?

If it were me, I'd try to cut it about a foot above the #2 mark (just above where those two tall and skinny branches come out on either side. Then I would trim back those smaller branches (if this makes sense). But it's hard to judge from the picture how high on the trunk that would be (looks like maybe about 5 feet?).
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 13, 2018, 12:04:50 PM
After I took another look at the picture, I guess you could cut it just a foot or so below the #1 mark, where those 2 branches are coming out and then cut those back a little bit to encourage bvranching.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 13, 2018, 01:50:06 PM
Thanks for the advice Jeff. :) The fence behind the tree is 6 foot tall and the tree is just below the height of the tallest powerline, which is about the height of a two story house. The tree never held any fruit to maturity so far. There are some green pea-sized fruits on it now, but half of those are on one of the high branches which will be challenge to reach, unless I use a tall ladder or a fruit picker. There are a few on one of the lower branches below the number #1 mark.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 13, 2018, 03:07:02 PM
Wow. I must have gotten lucky, because my 'pantin' (if it truly is pantin) is not even 6 feet tall, yet it's on its second crop. First crop consisted of 5 - 6 fruits. It's either not a pantin, or the rootstock is dwarfing it, because the tree is 7 - 8 years old.

My pace, on the other hand, looks similar to your pantin and hasn't yet produced.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: FrankDrebinOfFruits on February 13, 2018, 03:27:28 PM
I visited the McBryde Garden (here on Kauai). They had a Mamey tree that must have been 60+ feet tall (wish I took a picture). Problem is when the Mamey's fell it was like a cannon hitting the ground and the fruit was completely destroyed.  Chickens ate the fragments. It was then that I decided that my Mamey cannot get too tall. 

Its been a battle to try to keep it low, as the tree wants to reach for the sky.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: JF on February 13, 2018, 03:30:19 PM
Easy to manage size if you prune 2 x every summer. I take 4-5í off the Pattin and skip a year of fruiting
I do the same w the canistel itís actual help increase the size of the fruits
Both are 3 yearsin ground


(https://s10.postimg.cc/8lrxhib0l/9_D52_C818-7_CC8-4_F3_C-_AB37-_C9_EBCDB92_B9_B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8lrxhib0l/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/geil9h99x/F29_A5_F59-902_B-42_DB-9_E9_E-8_B469_E94_FEA1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/geil9h99x/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/5exdy08lx/5695_C6_B3-_D1_E9-4461-_B67_F-31_CE4_E5_A2_C05.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5exdy08lx/)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 13, 2018, 03:33:39 PM
Wow. I must have gotten lucky, because my 'pantin' (if it truly is pantin) is not even 6 feet tall, yet it's on its second crop. First crop consisted of 5 - 6 fruits. It's either not a pantin, or the rootstock is dwarfing it, because the tree is 7 - 8 years old.

My pace, on the other hand, looks similar to your pantin and hasn't yet produced.

Nice! Does the fruit look like Pantin?
My pace is a year older than my pantin, yet it is not as large.  It has been a prolific flowering and fruiting tree these past couple of years, but it has popped off all of it's fruit many times. My viejo is the youngest of them all (planted from a 3 gallon in 2014), has a spreading growth habit, and has one maturing fruit on it. lol It currently has some newly formed pea sized fruit and more flowers. My pace currently has tons of pea-sized fruit on it now from the recent bloom set. My pace:


(https://s10.postimg.cc/patdd6myt/pace1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/patdd6myt/)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 13, 2018, 03:36:52 PM
Easy to manage size if you prune 2 x every summer. I take 4-5í off the Pattin and skip a year of fruiting
I do the same w the canistel itís actual help increase the size of the fruits
Both are 3 yearsin ground


(https://s10.postimg.cc/8lrxhib0l/9_D52_C818-7_CC8-4_F3_C-_AB37-_C9_EBCDB92_B9_B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8lrxhib0l/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/geil9h99x/F29_A5_F59-902_B-42_DB-9_E9_E-8_B469_E94_FEA1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/geil9h99x/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/5exdy08lx/5695_C6_B3-_D1_E9-4461-_B67_F-31_CE4_E5_A2_C05.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5exdy08lx/)

Cool!  :)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 13, 2018, 03:38:37 PM
I visited the McBryde Garden (here on Kauai). They had a Mamey tree that must have been 60+ feet tall (wish I took a picture). Problem is when the Mamey's fell it was like a cannon hitting the ground and the fruit was completely destroyed.  Chickens ate the fragments. It was then that I decided that my Mamey cannot get too tall. 

Its been a battle to try to keep it low, as the tree wants to reach for the sky.

Yeah. I want to prevent that issue. The mamey trees probably enjoy the volcanic soil in your area.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 13, 2018, 04:00:42 PM
The fruit were too small to be pantin, and production came in Dec, which is not pantin season. However, it was the tree's first crop. The current crop looks like it will mature at leas one crop in Aug. It has a combo of near-tennis ball sized fruits and nut sized fruits. The tree grows at the rate of like 3 inches a year, even after being in ground for 3.5 years. It's insane. I guess it could be a viejo or something?
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 13, 2018, 04:15:57 PM
The fruit were too small to be pantin, and production came in Dec, which is not pantin season. However, it was the tree's first crop. The current crop looks like it will mature at leas one crop in Aug. It has a combo of near-tennis ball sized fruits and nut sized fruits. The tree grows at the rate of like 3 inches a year, even after being in ground for 3.5 years. It's insane. I guess it could be a viejo or something?

 Kinda sounds like Viejo based on your description. This is a pic of the tree itself and the fruit (just in case my message didn't go through).
(https://s10.postimg.cc/4j0widbqd/viejo1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4j0widbqd/)


(https://s10.postimg.cc/yc7wr1sol/viejofruit1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/yc7wr1sol/)



(https://s10.postimg.cc/hcyybk4jp/viejofruit2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hcyybk4jp/)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 13, 2018, 04:49:33 PM
Thanks, Alexi. That does look like mine. Interesting.

The fruit were too small to be pantin, and production came in Dec, which is not pantin season. However, it was the tree's first crop. The current crop looks like it will mature at leas one crop in Aug. It has a combo of near-tennis ball sized fruits and nut sized fruits. The tree grows at the rate of like 3 inches a year, even after being in ground for 3.5 years. It's insane. I guess it could be a viejo or something?

 Kinda sounds like Viejo based on your description. This is a pic of the tree itself and the fruit (just in case my message didn't go through).
(https://s10.postimg.cc/4j0widbqd/viejo1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4j0widbqd/)


(https://s10.postimg.cc/yc7wr1sol/viejofruit1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/yc7wr1sol/)



(https://s10.postimg.cc/hcyybk4jp/viejofruit2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hcyybk4jp/)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: pineislander on February 13, 2018, 06:04:25 PM
So, would you folks say if a branch gets 18" long and doesn't fork it should be tipped?
If not, to what length would you restrict branch length?
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Finca La Isla on February 13, 2018, 09:49:31 PM
(https://s14.postimg.cc/s56qtvnzx/00_C1_BB13-_E91_B-4671-_B88_D-83_E1_BBB01273.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/s56qtvnzx/)
Unfortunately you canít see the bottom of this tree in the photo but it is about 20í tall.  It has been, as you can see, frequently topped at about 5í below the top height.  That is at about 15í.
I think that breaking the tips at 18Ē is probably a good idea but keeping in mind not to let the shape get too crowded with small branches.  This tree needs work but at least thereís plenty of fruit.
Peter
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 13, 2018, 10:55:10 PM
(https://s14.postimg.cc/s56qtvnzx/00_C1_BB13-_E91_B-4671-_B88_D-83_E1_BBB01273.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/s56qtvnzx/)
Unfortunately you canít see the bottom of this tree in the photo but it is about 20í tall.  It has been, as you can see, frequently topped at about 5í below the top height.  That is at about 15í.
I think that breaking the tips at 18Ē is probably a good idea but keeping in mind not to let the shape get too crowded with small branches.  This tree needs work but at least thereís plenty of fruit.
Peter

Nice! Is that a seedling or a grafted tree?
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Finca La Isla on February 14, 2018, 04:29:13 PM
Itís a grafted tree that came from Zillís  nursery here.  There could have been a mixup but it is supposed to be Pantin. Gary has two others there, one of which he found here in CR that he calls Paritta. The tree in the photo is about 7years old, no fertilizer, just biochar and microorganisms.
We used to have a giant seedling and it was difficult to pick. Newer trees are being kept smaller than the Pantin.
Peter
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 14, 2018, 05:16:18 PM
Itís a grafted tree that came from Zillís  nursery here.  There could have been a mixup but it is supposed to be Pantin. Gary has two others there, one of which he found here in CR that he calls Paritta. The tree in the photo is about 7years old, no fertilizer, just biochar and microorganisms.
We used to have a giant seedling and it was difficult to pick. Newer trees are being kept smaller than the Pantin.
Peter

Cool. :)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 18, 2018, 04:13:27 PM
Trimmed it. :)
(https://s10.postimg.cc/bkk6kd2qd/mameytrim.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bkk6kd2qd/)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 18, 2018, 04:18:25 PM
:-) You could trim it right down to the lateral branches (like another foot down). Those lateral branches would then become scaffolding branches.

Trimmed it. :)
(https://s10.postimg.cc/bkk6kd2qd/mameytrim.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bkk6kd2qd/)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 18, 2018, 04:53:10 PM
:-) You could trim it right down to the lateral branches (like another foot down). Those lateral branches would then become scaffolding branches.

Trimmed it. :)
(https://s10.postimg.cc/bkk6kd2qd/mameytrim.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bkk6kd2qd/)

Sounds like a good idea. My initial goal was to make the tree produce multiple sprouts from the trunk and tip the new growth to promote lateral branching. Now when I think about your idea, I wished I trimmed it down further like you've suggested. I'll do that next weekend.  Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 18, 2018, 07:15:26 PM
Either way is fine. Sometimes it's hard to get those central shoots to calm down and grow at an angle (vs straight up in the air). But that might not be the case with mamey. Those 2 existing laterals look nice though.

:-) You could trim it right down to the lateral branches (like another foot down). Those lateral branches would then become scaffolding branches.

Trimmed it. :)
(https://s10.postimg.cc/bkk6kd2qd/mameytrim.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bkk6kd2qd/)

Sounds like a good idea. My initial goal was to make the tree produce multiple sprouts from the trunk and tip the new growth to promote lateral branching. Now when I think about your idea, I wished I trimmed it down further like you've suggested. I'll do that next weekend.  Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 18, 2018, 08:07:04 PM
Either way is fine. Sometimes it's hard to get those central shoots to calm down and grow at an angle (vs straight up in the air). But that might not be the case with mamey. Those 2 existing laterals look nice though.

:-) You could trim it right down to the lateral branches (like another foot down). Those lateral branches would then become scaffolding branches.

Trimmed it. :)
(https://s10.postimg.cc/bkk6kd2qd/mameytrim.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bkk6kd2qd/)

Sounds like a good idea. My initial goal was to make the tree produce multiple sprouts from the trunk and tip the new growth to promote lateral branching. Now when I think about your idea, I wished I trimmed it down further like you've suggested. I'll do that next weekend.  Thanks  :)

Yeah, I'll leave it alone for now to see how the central shoots behave. If it becomes uncontrollable and/or the canopy becomes too crowded, I'll go with your advice and reduce the height of the trunk down to the lateral branches.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Seanny on February 18, 2018, 08:18:08 PM
Look up crotch-dropping...that's what CM is asking you to do.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 18, 2018, 10:14:46 PM
Correct. Drop-crotch pruning. Generally heals better that way. Much more critical for older branches.

Look up crotch-dropping...that's what CM is asking you to do.
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 19, 2018, 01:11:38 AM
Oh okay. I looked it up. I'm guessing this is the sweet spot. I made a yellow mark in the picture where the planned cut is. I gotta be careful with the chain saw to make sure I don't cut into the lateral branch right next to it.

(https://s10.postimg.cc/n6cqar7dh/mameytrim2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/n6cqar7dh/)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Tropicalgrower89 on February 19, 2018, 01:43:58 AM
Dr. Crane also mentioned in this video that Mamey is different than other trees when it comes to making cuts. Cutting minor and major limbs to the origin (flush cuts aka drop-crutch pruning) can cause further die back, so he leaves a stub which results in healthier re-growth. He mentions it in the mamey pruning video in the link I posted.

http://trec.ifas.ufl.edu/fruitscapes/Fruitscapes-videos/mamey/playlist2/mamey_sapote_care.shtml (http://trec.ifas.ufl.edu/fruitscapes/Fruitscapes-videos/mamey/playlist2/mamey_sapote_care.shtml)
Title: Re: Pantin Mamey Height Reduction.
Post by: Cookie Monster on February 19, 2018, 12:50:32 PM
Good find. Thanks. Leave the stub then.

Dr. Crane also mentioned in this video that Mamey is different than other trees when it comes to making cuts. Cutting minor and major limbs to the origin (flush cuts aka drop-crutch pruning) can cause further die back, so he leaves a stub which results in healthier re-growth. He mentions it in the mamey pruning video in the link I posted.

[url]http://trec.ifas.ufl.edu/fruitscapes/Fruitscapes-videos/mamey/playlist2/mamey_sapote_care.shtml[/url] ([url]http://trec.ifas.ufl.edu/fruitscapes/Fruitscapes-videos/mamey/playlist2/mamey_sapote_care.shtml[/url])