Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: 911311 on January 02, 2019, 07:02:15 PM

Title: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 02, 2019, 07:02:15 PM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: SoCal2warm on January 02, 2019, 07:53:53 PM
Not very likely, at least not from a direct cross.

However you might take a look at this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487)
Quote
Citrofortunella x Tricimequat

Up for bid are seeds of the Tricimequat.  This is a beautiful small cold hardy Citrus tree, that gets fragrant white flowers, and delicious sweet Kumquat like fruit (and Kumquat is in the parentage of this unique hybrid), and like all Kumquats, you eat the peel and all with these.  This unusual cross is a hybrid of the Procimequat (another Kumquat hybrid) crossed with Trifoliate Orange for additional hardiness, and amazingly there is no bad taste from the trifoliate.  I enjoy eating these just as much as my Meiwa Kumquats, but this tree is much more cold tolerant  It is a rounded upright grower, and this is evergreen.  They are hardy to at least USDA zone 7b, and quite possibly 7a.  These plants would make excellent additions to your rare plant collection, or just make a unique statement in your yard.

You are bidding on 5 seeds of Citrofortunella x Tricimequat.  greg17086
Apparently it's a (Hong Kong kumquat x (kumquat x lime)) x trifoliate hybrid.

Although the sale has now ended, I was able to goad the owner of One Green World into getting and trying to germinate them.

Maybe if this was further crossed with Ichangquat we might get something truly edible.


Oh, by the way, I recently got the opportunity to taste Meiwa and agree it's the tastiest kumquat I've gotten to taste so far.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 02, 2019, 08:40:58 PM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: SoCal2warm on January 02, 2019, 09:48:49 PM
If I graft meiwa kumquat on flying dragon, how much the hardiness it would increase? If I plant it on the southside of my house to avoid cld wind, will it survive without protection in Atlanta?
Probably not much. Kumquat is already prone to enter into protective dormancy by itself, which is the whole point of FD rootstock.

Meiwa on FD would likely survive in Georgia in zone 8a, but I would be very surprised if it managed to survive in zone 7b.
If you did want to try it, I would definitely try planted up against a wall in a warm spot protected from wind, and maybe covered with a burlap sack and large plastic bag as well for some small degree of insulation from wind.


One woman tried to grow a small kumquat tree with minimal protection in zone 7b Atlanta but it did not survive. It was on rough lemon rootstock though.
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1837793/kumquats-in-ground-in-north-georgia (https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1837793/kumquats-in-ground-in-north-georgia)
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 03, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: lavender87 on January 03, 2019, 11:47:05 AM
 
   Why not give it a try. By luck, we might get something amazing from the cross breeding. I believe not all offsprings show the same cold tolerance as well as their tastes.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: hardyvermont on January 03, 2019, 02:43:04 PM
911311
High Graft (3 or 4 ft) high, Meiwa onto Poncirus and you should greatly increase hardiness.  Eyeckr does that and last winter I found that high grafted plants survived better as well.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 03, 2019, 03:09:57 PM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: hardyvermont on January 05, 2019, 11:26:45 AM
"In the U.S. early vegetable grafting took place in the southern states during the 1930s and 1940s where tomato scions were grafted to jimson weed root stocks to combat regional disease and stress issues."  http://piedmontmastergardeners.org/article/vegetable-grafting-for-healthier-plants-and-better-yields/ (http://piedmontmastergardeners.org/article/vegetable-grafting-for-healthier-plants-and-better-yields/)

In a medical detective book there was a story about people being poisoned from eating tomatoes.  It turned out that while tomatoes could be eaten when grafted onto jimson weed, when the jimson leaves and side shoots were not removed, poisons were translocated into the tomatoes. 

My grafts were on existing Poncirus, and side branches were kept for future grafting.  It is possible that the more root stock that is retained, plus additional rootstock leaves, increases hardiness.  High grafting and cutting off all rootstock branches may not reduce hardiness over leaving Poncirus leaves, and it makes sense that there would be an increase in hardiness over a standard graft.  It would make an interesting study. 





Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 05, 2019, 12:11:32 PM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Radoslav on January 05, 2019, 01:52:41 PM
In a medical detective book there was a story about people being poisoned from eating tomatoes.  It turned out that while tomatoes could be eaten when grafted onto jimson weed, when the jimson leaves and side shoots were not removed, poisons were translocated into the tomatoes. 
 
My grafts were on existing Poncirus, and side branches were kept for future grafting.  It is possible that the more root stock that is retained, plus additional rootstock leaves, increases hardiness.  High grafting and cutting off all rootstock branches may not reduce hardiness over leaving Poncirus leaves, and it makes sense that there would be an increase in hardiness over a standard graft.  It would make an interesting study.

 That sounds interesting, and it makes enough sense to me. I was thinking of that explanation as well, and I also think of grafting back a few poncirus branches on the citrus hybrid or bark graft or transplant a piece of bark of poncirus onto hybrid citrus to increase hardiness in addition to the poncirus rootstock. I was trying to think of some technique to manually tranfer some more gene of poncirus into the hybrid to fight off freezing; however, I think there will be a trade off on this since our citrus fruit should be affected by the bitterness or sourness of the poncirus.


I think, that secret of better surviving of high grafts can be  just a question of difference between ground frost, air frost etc. Temperature differs  and a single degree celsius can be crucial, also each additonal hour of frost exposure.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on January 06, 2019, 02:45:39 PM
My experience with high crafting is a bit mixed up. I have a Citrumelo, a Citrandarin and Chimera Prague high crafted at 120 cm. The stem of Citrumelo (dm 3cm) was severelydamaged by rind cracks. Cracks were only to be found on Poncirus-stem. Cirumelo parts were completely okay. I think it was exposed to the sun. The other stems were not harmed at all. Citrumelo recovered and bloomed late but plentyful. Last flowes in Dec.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 06, 2019, 03:34:03 PM
My experience with high crafting is a bit mixed up. I have a Citrumelo, a Citrandarin and Chimera Prague high crafted at 120 cm. The stem of Citrumelo (dm 3cm) was severelydamaged by rind cracks. Cracks were only to be found on Poncirus-stem. Cirumelo parts were completely okay. I think it was exposed to the sun. The other stems were not harmed at all. Citrumelo recovered and bloomed late but plentyful. Last flowes in Dec.

  Cool, I think high graft on FD is safer when the tree is still young. I plan to reduce size all my trees using FD rootstock because it is much easier to cover the entire canopy by plastic bags. I think we better water the entire tree before cover it as well as paint lower trunk to protect from insects and cold air. Thank you for your opinion.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Zaubergau on January 06, 2019, 04:56:53 PM
I wonder if there would be any dormancy inducing benefits of a citrangequat interstem on FD?  Trifoliate is reputed to be daylight dependent and kumquat temperature dependent,
 to break dormacy.  The traits may stack up to marginally increase cold tolerance.
  Thomasville is the only citrus hybrid that has survived outdoors here for me ( old zone 7 , now 8a). It volunteers here when I discard seed in a north facing raised flower bed.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 06, 2019, 05:42:45 PM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Millet on January 06, 2019, 06:24:37 PM
911311 wrote   >"I would prefer FD because it will dwarf any citrus to about 5 to 6 feet tall"<

Trees indeed grow much slower on FD, then they do on other rootstocks, and the rootstock does have  dwarfing properties..  But in time they will produce trees much taller than 5 to 6 feet.  I have a 20 year old Cara Cara that is grafted upon FD root stock.  The tree is now 11-ft tall and 15-ft. wide.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 06, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 06, 2019, 08:21:16 PM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Millet on January 06, 2019, 09:01:21 PM
911311 my Cara Cara is on true FD rootstock.  In fact all of my trees are grafted upon FD, with the exception of trees grown from seed.  They are of course on their own roots.  I have a Saint Dominic's Sour Orange tree grown from seed planted in 2005. It is now 9-feet tall and has fruited for the last 2 years.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: SoCal2warm on January 06, 2019, 09:57:46 PM
I have a Saint Dominic's Sour Orange tree grown from seed planted in 2005. It is now 9-feet tall and has fruited for the last 2 years.
In Colorado? Protected during the Winter, or outside?
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Millet on January 06, 2019, 11:04:28 PM
SoCal2warm, all of my trees are growing inside of a large greenhouse on our farm.  The green house was originally used to start various plants that we then mechanically transplanted into our farm fields.  For the last 20 years we have all of our fields planted into wheat, so we no longer use the greenhouse.  I then converted the greenhouse into my hobby greenhouse.  I have 9 citrus trees and one pomegranate that are  planted in the ground inside the greenhouse.  They are all large trees.  There are also approximately 50 pineapples, and 30 container citrus trees planted in mostly 13-gallon containers.  I also have a large New Zealand Lemonade tree in a 3 cubic foot container.  Plus the normal misc. items like tomatoes, orchids and etc.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 07, 2019, 08:05:23 AM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: PDXIan on January 07, 2019, 07:27:58 PM
Not very likely, at least not from a direct cross.

However you might take a look at this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487)
Quote
Citrofortunella x Tricimequat

Up for bid are seeds of the Tricimequat.  This is a beautiful small cold hardy Citrus tree, that gets fragrant white flowers, and delicious sweet Kumquat like fruit (and Kumquat is in the parentage of this unique hybrid), and like all Kumquats, you eat the peel and all with these.  This unusual cross is a hybrid of the Procimequat (another Kumquat hybrid) crossed with Trifoliate Orange for additional hardiness, and amazingly there is no bad taste from the trifoliate.  I enjoy eating these just as much as my Meiwa Kumquats, but this tree is much more cold tolerant  It is a rounded upright grower, and this is evergreen.  They are hardy to at least USDA zone 7b, and quite possibly 7a.  These plants would make excellent additions to your rare plant collection, or just make a unique statement in your yard.

You are bidding on 5 seeds of Citrofortunella x Tricimequat.  greg17086
Apparently it's a (Hong Kong kumquat x (kumquat x lime)) x trifoliate hybrid.

Although the sale has now ended, I was able to goad the owner of One Green World into getting and trying to germinate them.

Maybe if this was further crossed with Ichangquat we might get something truly edible.


Oh, by the way, I recently got the opportunity to taste Meiwa and agree it's the tastiest kumquat I've gotten to taste so far.

I ordered those a well, 3 have sprouted so far.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Millet on January 07, 2019, 10:16:31 PM
911311 wrote   >FD with no mix gene of the standard poncirus will be about 5' to 6' tall no matter how old it is<

The above quote is not what occurs. FD does dwarf a large citrus variety such as Cara Cara, Navels, Valencia etc. approximately 1/2 of what the cultivar would normally grow.  Many cultivars not on dwarfing rootstocks mature out at 25-feet in height +-,  on FD approximately 1/2 of that..
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: 911311 on January 08, 2019, 05:52:37 PM
gone
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Ilya11 on January 08, 2019, 06:09:39 PM
I can send you some stratified seeds to experiment with.
FD as well as other poncirus varieties does not require stratification :)
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: lavender87 on January 08, 2019, 11:10:58 PM
I can send you some stratified seeds to experiment with.
FD as well as other poncirus varieties does not require stratification :)

  Oh really, thank your for your info. I remember that I read somewhere online that say unless we leave the Poncirus fruits outside over winter for natural stratification otherwise we should remove seeds and put them in a damp paper towel, then place the towel with seeds inside a sealed plastic bag and put them in the fridge (34F) for at least a month or until we are ready to germinate. I always do that to reserve the seeds because I was afraid that the seeds would get dried and the rate of germination would be low.

  I have never tried to germinate non stratified Poncirus seeds, but I guess they might not germinate if we pick fruits in the Falls and stores at room temperature until Springs.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Florian on January 09, 2019, 04:03:13 AM
Non stratified Poncirus seeds will germinate just as well but you can also leave the fruit outside and plant the seeds in spring. I don't know if it is good to store the fruit at room temperature.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: mikkel on January 09, 2019, 05:15:04 AM
I don't know if it is good to store the fruit at room temperature.

I test it this winter.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Ilya11 on January 09, 2019, 05:31:36 AM
Not very likely, at least not from a direct cross.

However you might take a look at this:
[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487[/url] ([url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487[/url])



I ordered those a well, 3 have sprouted so far.


I read on a French forum that ebay picture was taken from Procimquat description of Eizenhut Swiss nursery (Z175 http://www.eisenhut.ch/dyn/index.php?id=285348&gruppe=Zitrus&q=&orderby=nummer&offset=175&modus=liste (http://www.eisenhut.ch/dyn/index.php?id=285348&gruppe=Zitrus&q=&orderby=nummer&offset=175&modus=liste).

(http://www.eisenhut.ch/custom/eisenhut.ch/userfiles/pflanzenliste/140267_1_Procinequat_175.JPG)
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on January 09, 2019, 08:25:55 AM
911311 wrote
"If this article is true then your FD rootstock might have been a hybrid between a FD and standard Poncirus, not a pure FD."

I have never heard of PTXFD-Hybrids. Do they exist? Or are you talking hypothetically, 911311?
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Florian on January 09, 2019, 03:12:31 PM
Not very likely, at least not from a direct cross.

However you might take a look at this:
[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487[/url] ([url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487[/url])



I ordered those a well, 3 have sprouted so far.


I read on a French forum that ebay picture was taken from Procimquat description of Eizenhut Swiss nursery (Z175 [url]http://www.eisenhut.ch/dyn/index.php?id=285348&gruppe=Zitrus&q=&orderby=nummer&offset=175&modus=liste[/url] ([url]http://www.eisenhut.ch/dyn/index.php?id=285348&gruppe=Zitrus&q=&orderby=nummer&offset=175&modus=liste[/url]).

([url]http://www.eisenhut.ch/custom/eisenhut.ch/userfiles/pflanzenliste/140267_1_Procinequat_175.JPG[/url])


Hmm, that really is Eisenhut's picture! In the ebay description it says this is supposed to be a Procimequat x Poncirus. One would expect a certain percentage of trifoliate leaves from such a cross, right?
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: Millet on January 10, 2019, 04:23:06 PM
911311, not all Flying Dragon seed are true to type.  Approximately only 50 percent of Flying Dragon seed will produce true to type, no matter the age of the mother tree.  Flying Dragon as a cultivar always has zigzag stems and strongly curved thorns.  It is an easy way (without a DNA test) of selecting predominantly true clonal FD seedlings, while discarding those which are obviously and definitely  genetically different.  All straight stemmed and straight thorn are not FD. 
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: hardyvermont on January 19, 2019, 02:31:35 PM
Not very likely, at least not from a direct cross.

However you might take a look at this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Citrofortunella-x-TRICIMEQUAT-Cold-Hardy-Citrus-Tree-SEEDS-/382704720418?oid=362495154487)
Quote
Citrofortunella x Tricimequat

Up for bid are seeds of the Tricimequat.  This is a beautiful small cold hardy Citrus tree, that gets fragrant white flowers, and delicious sweet Kumquat like fruit (and Kumquat is in the parentage of this unique hybrid), and like all Kumquats, you eat the peel and all with these.  This unusual cross is a hybrid of the Procimequat (another Kumquat hybrid) crossed with Trifoliate Orange for additional hardiness, and amazingly there is no bad taste from the trifoliate.  I enjoy eating these just as much as my Meiwa Kumquats, but this tree is much more cold tolerant  It is a rounded upright grower, and this is evergreen.  They are hardy to at least USDA zone 7b, and quite possibly 7a.  These plants would make excellent additions to your rare plant collection, or just make a unique statement in your yard.

You are bidding on 5 seeds of Citrofortunella x Tricimequat.  greg17086
Apparently it's a (Hong Kong kumquat x (kumquat x lime)) x trifoliate hybrid.

Although the sale has now ended, I was able to goad the owner of One Green World into getting and trying to germinate them.

Maybe if this was further crossed with Ichangquat we might get something truly edible.


Oh, by the way, I recently got the opportunity to taste Meiwa and agree it's the tastiest kumquat I've gotten to taste so far.

I ordered those a well, 3 have sprouted so far.

PDXIan has had three sprout, has anyone else had any luck?  Seed arrived dry and now are floating on the top of water.   :-[

Another topic: citrus seed harvested in December of 2016 has surprisingly germinated.  Seed were kept damp in the refrigerator. 
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: PDXIan on March 01, 2019, 02:50:20 PM
I now have 6 that have sprouted.
Title: Re: Meiwa Kumquat x Flying dragon (poncirus trifoliata)
Post by: SoCal2warm on May 12, 2019, 11:45:53 AM
Update:
I was able to visit One Green World, and was given a tour of the back area, and they successfully sprouted two of the seeds on ebay I had encouraged them to buy. They are just tiny seedlings right now. Not available for sale right now, but perhaps in a few years they will have propagated more of them.

These are supposedly a Procimequat x trifoliate hybrids that are edible almost like a regular kumquat.