Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: SoCal2warm on January 31, 2019, 11:27:19 PM

Title: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on January 31, 2019, 11:27:19 PM
These are some seedlings I'm growing:
Kaffir lime, Yuzu, Ichangquat, US 852, one of them is a Thomasville Citrangequat and one is an N1tri
(https://i.postimg.cc/LhPGNg96/20190131-201444.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LhPGNg96)

These are a Ventura Lemandarin (back) and Dimicelli seedlings that Eyeckr gave me. They're putting on new growth.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7fWs4xYQ/20190131-201455.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7fWs4xYQ)

They're inside a grow tent.
(I measured the temperature difference and it's 7 degrees (F) warmer inside the enclosure than inside the room it is in)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on February 04, 2019, 06:20:40 PM
Ichangquat seedlings

(https://i.postimg.cc/2qksP0bB/20190204-143524.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2qksP0bB)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: mikkel on February 05, 2019, 03:22:34 AM
Interesting that the cotyledons are above the ground. Was the seed on top of the ground?
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on February 05, 2019, 11:45:23 AM
Interesting that the cotyledons are above the ground. Was the seed on top of the ground?
Actually that pattern appears to be the norm for Ichangquat seedlings.
The seed splits open and rises just a little, and remains attached to the seedling.
As you can see, these split seeds have turned very green and remain an integral part of the seedling, but they are definitely solid and haven't turned into flat little leaves.
I haven't noticed this unique growth pattern on any other of the many different types of seedlings I'm growing.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Sylvain on February 06, 2019, 07:11:14 AM
For citrus, the type of germination (epigeal/hypogeal) is not marked.
If the seed is sown more than 1 cm in the soil the germination will be hypogeal.
If the seed is sown less than 1 cm in the soil the germination will be epigeal.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: lebmung on February 06, 2019, 07:31:18 AM
Why don't you paint the pots black?
Roots when they see the light stop growing, also algae can set inside the pot when exposed to light and humidity.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on February 16, 2019, 05:22:48 PM
Thomasville seedling on the left, Ichangquat on the right

(https://i.postimg.cc/N9p0ydB7/20190216-141939.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9p0ydB7)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on March 09, 2019, 01:03:15 AM
Update picture of Thomasville citrangequat seedling:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z93dtHgk/20190308-215611.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z93dtHgk)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on March 18, 2019, 01:28:02 AM
Ichangquat, a little bigger now

(https://i.postimg.cc/8JnHy6sK/20190317-222358.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8JnHy6sK)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on March 18, 2019, 02:36:51 AM
Keraji

(https://i.postimg.cc/7GTxXW8c/20190317-231615.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7GTxXW8c)

From the research I've been able to find, I have been able to piece together that Keraji probably came about over time as a triple backcross of Kunenbo with Shikuwasa (that is being repeatedly crossed with Kunenbo).
Kunenbo is the male pollen parent of the well-known Satsuma mandarin variety, while Kunenbo itself is a large almost orange/tangelo-like mandarin that apparently has some pomelo ancestry in its lineage.

Keraji is quite cold-hardy, supposedly being able to survive down to perhaps 12 to 14 degrees Fahrenheit.
However, from my experience trying to grow the small seedlings outside (on their own roots) in zone 8a in the Pacific Northwest, I can report that they barely seemed to survive through a cold period with lots of snow that included what I believe was a low point of perhaps 16 degrees. Die-back on many of the small branches. (They would probably do better further South, and grafted onto trifoliate)

Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: maesy on March 18, 2019, 11:21:54 AM
Here are my seedlings.

These are dunstan citrumelo seedlings from three different fruits. The once in the round pots seem to be hybrids. I was pollinating the flowers with pollen from my i x s. It looks like I was successful on one flower.  :D
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QbLnLCv/IMG-20190318-155337.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QbLnLCv)

The hybrid seeds came from the strange looking fruit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/p5Vy9t4b/IMG-20181206-115531.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p5Vy9t4b)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0rrsNQH5/IMG-20190105-090240.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0rrsNQH5)

Here are some thomasville and keraji seedlings.


(https://i.postimg.cc/QVNpKLpd/IMG-20190318-155610.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QVNpKLpd)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on March 18, 2019, 11:31:46 AM
These are dunstan citrumelo seedlings from three different fruits.
I've read that Dunstan has much better taste than Swingle citrumelo.
My Dunstan is surviving outside, though has not fruited yet.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: lebmung on March 18, 2019, 03:40:52 PM
how many months those seedlings are?
I have poncirus sprouted in December now it's 10-12 cm high, they grow pretty fast. Whereas Oroblanco grew rapidly in the first two weeks then stopped.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on March 20, 2019, 06:17:47 PM
I made some micrografts onto Flying Dragon.
Ichangquat (top graft) and Keraji (bottom graft).

(https://i.postimg.cc/zLJJddvp/20190320-150434.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLJJddvp)

I'm not very good at grafting so I don't know if the tiny grafts will take.
I found the Flying Dragon at the local nursery, it was kind of expensive though.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: lebmung on March 20, 2019, 06:54:51 PM
You can take pt cuttings and root them. Some people report hard to root. I have success 100%. In 4 weeks they start to grow roots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B86NJRvm/DSC-0713.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B86NJRvm)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: kumin on March 20, 2019, 06:55:54 PM
I haven't done Citrus grafting recently, a procedure that worked very well was a side bark graft when the rootstock cambium was slippery and moist. I made a shallow downward cut just under the bark, trying not to harm the underlying wood. Next, I selected the thinnest, flattest scion I could find and shaved the outer layer of both flat sides of the scion, exposing, but not removing the cambium. Then slipped it under the bark flap I had created. Due to the thin scion there was very little bulge after insertion. Next I wrapped the graft area, being careful to match the wrapping tension to the robustness of the grafted tissues. Tender parts needed less tension, thicker required more.

This was very successful for me, on the other hand persimmons with cold damaged cambium were pretty much impossible to get to succeed.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: kumin on March 20, 2019, 07:00:41 PM
lebmung, nice looking cuttings, were they rooted at the point they were photographed?
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Ilya11 on March 21, 2019, 04:08:24 AM
You can take pt cuttings and root them. Some people report hard to root. I have success 100%. In 4 weeks they start to grow roots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B86NJRvm/DSC-0713.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B86NJRvm)
Looks amazingly similar to the young  poncirus seedlings.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: lebmung on March 21, 2019, 07:18:39 AM
Sorry those are seedlings 3 months old I forgot to mention.
I keep the cuttings in a small greenhouse with temperature controlled. But they look quite the same.
There is a video on youtube where citrus fruitmentor doesn't have any success with rooting PT. I guess he's done something wrong. I root all citruses without problems.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on March 22, 2019, 06:08:41 AM
C. ichangensis and Citrumelo root easily, Mandarins and PT do not. But I admit I never use any technical devices like root heating. Just stick Wood in the ground.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Millet on March 22, 2019, 04:15:21 PM
It is strange that very few to no one, has any success rooting PT, not even a pro like Fruitmentor but Lebmung has 100% take.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: kumin on March 22, 2019, 04:30:25 PM
In the past, I propagated several thousand rooted cuttings (not citrus}. There are many factors that contribute to the success or failure. One clone may be easier than another. Optimum seasonality (Time of year) can be extremely important. Just as transitioning from juvenile stage to mature stage is required for flowering and fruiting, the ability to root decreases with maturity. In general, more juvenile is better. Some species are maintained in a continuing juvenile state by repeatedly cutting the mother plant almost back to the ground to force new easily rooted shoots. I don't know how much this applies to Citrus.

Additionally, hormone treatment can have a big impact on success.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Ilya11 on March 22, 2019, 06:32:56 PM
I never tried to root them, but apparently it is possible (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Fusao_Mizutani/publication/45725698_Propagation_of_Citrus_by_Stem_Cuttings_and_Seasonal_Variation_in_Rooting_Capacity/links/0046353b4831a6d3ba000000/Propagation-of-Citrus-by-Stem-Cuttings-and-Seasonal-Variation-in-Rooting-Capacity.pdf) in the case of summer softwood cuttings from juvenile immature plants (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251009896_Effects_of_Juvenility_on_the_Rooting_of_Trifoliate_Orange_Poncirus_trifoliata_L_Raf_Stem_Cuttings) at higher temperatures and  high humidity
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Sylvain on March 23, 2019, 10:35:31 AM
I tried to root about 100 cuttings of Prague chimera, from a mature tree.
It took a long time but one by one they all eventually died.
And now I read ... cuttings collected from mature trees in all months ... failed to form callus and root. !
 >:(
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: lebmung on March 24, 2019, 06:58:48 PM
It is strange that very few to no one, has any success rooting PT, not even a pro like Fruitmentor but Lebmung has 100% take.

I didn't intend to offend anyone. I saw the video online and it seemed challenging to me. I usually root any plant.
So I said let me experiment.
4 weeks they grow roots and new leaves.
Yes I control the temperature and humidity. And do use a mixture of hormone plus a lightly fertilised sterile medium.
Here is the proof.

.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yDtHd1tL/DSC-0727.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yDtHd1tL)

(https://i.postimg.cc/68yKt2j7/DSC-0730.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/68yKt2j7)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Millet on March 24, 2019, 08:40:37 PM
lebmung, congratulations, job well done.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on March 28, 2019, 07:23:01 PM
Two Ichangquat seedlings, a little bigger now

(https://i.postimg.cc/VJyZjfXH/20190328-161907.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VJyZjfXH)

(the third one in background in Ventura Lemandarin)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on March 31, 2019, 10:41:18 PM
Thomasville citrangequat seedling again:

(https://i.postimg.cc/zLNKCSzn/20190331-193024.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLNKCSzn)

It might turn out to have non-trifoliate foliage.

this came from a seed from a fruit that Eyeckr sent me
The fruit actually tasted better than I was expecting, I didn't really seem to detect any trifoliate aftertaste, and it was a nice size fruit, there was only one seed in the fruit. The rind was maybe only a little less edible than calamondin.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on April 13, 2019, 08:18:38 PM
TaiTri seedling (Taiwanica x trifoliate)

(https://i.postimg.cc/y3cYJYDV/20190413-171110.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3cYJYDV)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: kumin on April 25, 2019, 07:05:40 AM
Referring to rooting cuttings, the goal is to provide a relatively cool humid environment for the upper stem and foliage, while providing heat to the buried lower stem, so as to allow the energy reserves in the cutting to be directed to root formation rather than new foliage formation. When a plant has top growth removed, it directs it's effort toward restoring the balance by sending out vigorous new shoots. Likewise, it's important to assist the plant in it's natural attempt to replace the balance between roots and foliage when the cutting is severed from the mother plant. Only when this balance has been restored should the plant be encouraged to send out new foliage. Almost all horticultural activities function more smoothly when done in concert with the plants natural processes.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: maesy on May 06, 2019, 02:01:34 PM
Here is an update on my dunstan citrumelo x ixs seedlings. Each one start to look different. This might be normal for f2 hybrids.
What is the experts opinion?
(https://i.postimg.cc/67xckmvc/IMG-20190506-194323.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/67xckmvc)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MMK7x2K7/IMG-20190506-194627.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MMK7x2K7)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on May 07, 2019, 12:58:53 AM
Here is an update on my dunstan citrumelo x ixs seedlings.
What does ixs mean?
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: maesy on May 07, 2019, 03:08:48 AM
Ichangensis x sinensis
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: kumin on May 07, 2019, 04:41:05 AM
Variation is to be expected in zygotic F2 populations. It's an expression of the recombination of the genetic material in the F1 hybrids. Resessive traits that were not expressed in the F1 can now be expressed. An example would be F1 trifoliate plants producing F2 unifoliate progeny.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: maesy on May 07, 2019, 05:04:13 AM
Only the seedlings of this fruit that was cross pollinated are different from eachother. All the other dunstan seedllings from two other fruits look the same.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on May 07, 2019, 07:44:08 AM
Thank you so much for posting, maesy.

Those hybrids are very exciting. I predict good fruit quality.

There's an ichangensis x Satsuma cultivar here I'm working to get my hands on. Probably hardier than ichangensis x orange, I would assume.

A few of the F2 seeds from your ichangensis x sinesis may likely show a lot more hardiness than the original plant. Oranges are not really that hardy, so the first generation cross is not going to display the full potential.
(on the downside, seeds from orange are almost entirely nucellar, so I'm not sure what the zygotic seed ratio is of your hybrid. If the seedlings are all looking different, that's encouraging)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: maesy on May 07, 2019, 09:01:09 AM
Yes I also expecting more or less good fruit quality.

But the ichangensis x sinensis is the pollen donor. The mother plant is the dunstan citrumelo.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Ilya11 on May 07, 2019, 09:51:33 AM
Seedling close to the bottom could be a nucellar Dunstan, the rest are probably hybrids.
 I do not have an experience with this citrumelo ( my tree is almost 3m high but has not flowered yet).
Nucellar seedlings of 5star citrumelo have first  three  single leaves, than they are trifoliates. Its hybrids with unifoliate varieties are mostly bi and monofoliates at later stages.
Have you castrated the flowers?
What is amazing about ixs is an  absence of wide petioles , typical for other hybrids with ichangensis.
Your seedlings also have  petioles typical for oranges.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: maesy on May 07, 2019, 11:41:02 AM
Yes I also was missing the wide petioles, but  if I look very closely at the plant, there are a few leaves with slightly bigger petioles.
Becouse of that reason and becouse of the flavor of the leaves and the good tasting fruits I also was in doubt if it is true.
On the other hand I found this article about a somatic hybrid of ichang pepeda with valencia orange which suits very good to our i x s.

www.researchgate.net/publication/15000585_Interspecific_somatic_hybrid_of_Ichang_papeda_with_Valencia_orange (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/15000585_Interspecific_somatic_hybrid_of_Ichang_papeda_with_Valencia_orange)
[
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on May 08, 2019, 12:18:16 PM
US 852 seedling on the left, TaiTri seedling on the right
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3HJ2StJ/20190508-091421.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3HJ2StJ)
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on May 09, 2019, 05:20:36 AM
Lebming, great if it works, but I don't see the benefit except you need flowering PT The rootsystem will take a kongt time to take up with the one of a seedling I suppose.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: lebmung on May 09, 2019, 06:58:04 PM
Lebming, great if it works, but I don't see the benefit except you need flowering PT The rootsystem will take a kongt time to take up with the one of a seedling I suppose.

Not really. The seedlings planted in December have a smaller root system than the cuttings taken in January. Why I don't know. Maybe because of hormones used. I believe there are few differences. PT from seed makes a long tap root, cuttings don't have that so they are more suitable for pots. Also I think an old PT as a rootstock makes the scion bloom faster like in the experiments where they use old PT as interstock. So it should be better for instance to induce flowering in seedlings grafted on it.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on June 16, 2019, 02:48:37 PM
Ichangquat seedlings, much bigger now with many leaves
(https://i.postimg.cc/WtTW88jd/20190616-114210.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtTW88jd)

Ichang papeda cutting
(https://i.postimg.cc/JyRDvsh5/20190616-114241.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JyRDvsh5)
was taken from a tree growing outside in a garden in downtown Portland, has been growing very well
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: Millet on June 16, 2019, 03:28:40 PM
Look very healthy.
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: kumin on June 16, 2019, 04:21:33 PM
It's always refreshing to see vigorously growing Citrus that hasn't had to face the ravages of winter. Will these plants be exposed to this coming winter's outdoor temperatures?
Title: Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
Post by: SoCal2warm on June 17, 2019, 12:54:26 AM
Will these plants be exposed to this coming winter's outdoor temperatures?

I'm not sure yet. I'd prefer to graft them on trifoliate, or a trifoliate hybrid, before putting planting them outside, and so far I don't really have any trifoliate hybrids big enough to graft onto, and I would probably want to grow the graft on to the rootstock inside to ensure it takes, which could take even more time before it goes outside.
It might survive on its own roots, if I just planted it outside right now, but from my experience with this last Winter, I am reluctant to take any chances.

I'm confident it would survive, I'm just concerned it might be killed back and be a third of its size, which would be a big setback. I'd like to try planting it out on trifoliate. However, they are rapidly outgrowing their containers, and it's difficult for me to have many large containers growing inside.