Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Citrus => Cold Hardy Citrus => Topic started by: Radoslav on June 02, 2019, 01:59:17 AM

Title: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Radoslav on June 02, 2019, 01:59:17 AM
I see a lot of discussion about culinary use of acid citruses in this forum. So, in Japan they eat a lot of sea food, so usage of acid citruses is popular.
So here is a list of japan acid citruses (or citruses used green unripe to use their acidity).

Citrus junos Yuzu

The most expensive is 木頭系(きとう)Kitō-kei (kitō), Yuzu kito, it has biggest fruit of standard yuzus.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kDQMN7FY/Kit-yuzu-honyuzu.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDQMN7FY)
Another famous selection is 早生種の「山根系」Yamane-kei  やまねゆず(はやしげる)Yamane yuzu (haya Shigeru)
The Yamane kei was selected in Mr. Yamane 's garden in Anan City. 
Seedless yuzu is called 種なしの (多田錦(ただにしき)) Tada nishiki yuzu

Citrus sphaerocarpa Hort.ex Tanaka  Kabosu  カボス

Important cultivars are:
〔通常品種〕「カボス大分1号」   Kabosu Ōita No.1
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZvrBk3d1/Oita-No1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZvrBk3d1)
〔貯蔵品種〕「豊のミドリ」   Yutaka no Midori
(https://i.postimg.cc/CnL2fC4g/Toyo-no-Midori.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CnL2fC4g)

Seedless cultivars:
〔種の少ない品種〕「香美の川」  Kami no kawa
(https://i.postimg.cc/HcbZNZ6H/Kami.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HcbZNZ6H)
「祖母の香」   Sobonokaori
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vd0RZHvh/sobonokaori.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vd0RZHvh)

Citrus acidoglobosa  Matsuda sudachi    マツダスダチ

Citrus sudachi  Sudachi   すだち

Important cultivars are:
徳島1号  Tokushima No. 1
徳島3X1号  Tokushima 3 X 1 / seedless/ ニューすだち
本田系  Honda-kei sudachi

Mushi nukaku sudachi   / seedless, thornless/
Yushi nukaku sudachi  /seedless/

Genko ゲンコウ(元寇)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mPbP1tvS/genkou.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mPbP1tvS)

Citrus inflata Bushukan 仏手柑(ぶしゅかん)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NKYH8NHm/Bushukan-mochiyu.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NKYH8NHm)

Citrus oto Oto オートー
(https://i.postimg.cc/Q9pDqq5K/c-Oto.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9pDqq5K)

Citrus takuma sudachi ナオシチ Takuma-sudachi  直七(田熊スダチ) naoshichi
(https://i.postimg.cc/0rFGSdn0/naoshichi-Taguma-sudachi.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0rFGSdn0)

ハナユ Citrus hanaju
(https://i.postimg.cc/bsvJqKk6/C-hanaju.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bsvJqKk6)

Citrus Hebesu  ヘベス 別名 サンズ
(https://i.postimg.cc/ykwz25P3/citrus-habesu.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ykwz25P3)

Citrus depressa Shiikuwasha


Citrus keraji Kabuchi

(https://i.postimg.cc/D8cqNkFB/kabuchi-Undokai-mikan.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D8cqNkFB)

Citrus nagato yuzukichi Yuzukichi ゆずきち

(https://i.postimg.cc/MM0VC0DR/Yuzukichi.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MM0VC0DR)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Oolie on June 02, 2019, 05:10:32 AM
Thank you very much for posting.
What I found very interesting when visiting is the popularity of acid citrus and seafood, and yet ceviche is unknown.

But the seafood is definitely unique, by studying the fishing technique, you get to taste fish so different from elsewhere.

I can't get enough, so I am very grateful for your continued posting.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: SoCal2warm on June 02, 2019, 11:53:55 AM
Just to point out, many of these Japanese citruses are complex hybrids (but not intentional hybrids) between Kunenbo (a type of tangor-like fruit, basically almost mandarin with some pomelo in its ancestry, probably came from China), Kishu (very small but great quality mandarin, also probably came from China), Tachibana (a mandarin sub-species, only citrus native to the Japanese islands, not that good eating equality), and to a lesser extent Yuzu (also came from China, the Japanese named it after the Chinese word for pomelo, since it was sour).

Shikuwasa may have come from Taiwan or the Ryukyu islands, and appears to share close common ancestry with Tachibana but not directly descended from it. Shikuwasa also appears to have some distant ancestry from Yuzu.

Keraji originated from Shikuwasa that apparently got backcrossed three times over the years with Kunenbo. It's also very hardy, down to 8b, probably could survive 8a in certain conditions. Supposedly great flavor and easy to peel, but very small and seedy.

Kabosu is apparently a cross between Yuzu and Kunenbo.

I'd like to point out that many of these unique citruses are very regional and traditional, and their use in modern Japan had mostly died out, especially due to large-scale commodity imports of citrus from the United States, since the high cost of living makes commodity agriculture prohibitively expensive in Japan. Native-grown Japanese citrus is considered a more expensive delicacy in typical Japanese supermarkets. Probably much of the Japanese public has no idea what these citrus even are.
Yuzu though has seen a popular resurgence in Japan, with Yuzu extract being sold in markets, and Yuzu flavored alcohol commonly being available in establishments. Satsuma has been the most popular mandarin in Japan for a couple hundred years, the word mikan has almost become synonymous with the Satsuma variety in modern Japan, and most people will buy them in the supermarkets when in season. Sudachi and Kabosu are basically known as the two less common "forms" of Yuzu by the ordinary public in Japan, they are not as often seen but can usually be found for sale in the large fish markets.

Yuzu has its own unique flavor and fragrance. If you've never tasted it before, it really is unique from other citrus types. It's almost like a very fragrant - almost floral - sour orange (marmalade orange), but with a pungently deep spiciness, but also like lemon as well, mixed with perhaps some Satsuma mandarin and regular mandarin, and for the most discerning, perhaps the tiniest sweet top note of artificial grapefruit and guava.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on June 03, 2019, 04:04:51 AM
Socal2warm,
I was for three days hiking in Schwarzwald mountains and you profited an  absence of my surveillance to produce so many fake statements >:(
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Laaz on June 03, 2019, 06:59:53 AM
(http://i67.tinypic.com/5znswj.jpg)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Laaz on June 03, 2019, 07:05:15 AM
Ilya I've learned to just ignore him... Although it is good entertainment aka "Sanguinello"...
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Pancrazio on June 03, 2019, 04:06:54 PM
Thank you Radoslav for your reports, comprehensive report on japan citrus are hard to come by because of language barrier.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Oolie on September 06, 2019, 12:01:23 AM
I am now searching for shikuwasa, I was not able to find it listed anywhere on the CCPP site.

Anyone have it?
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: jim VH on September 06, 2019, 01:22:12 PM
My nephew brought me back a Yuzu from Japan which might be a Kito Yuzu.  It was very large-though not as large as the one in the above picture- as well as much juicier with far fewer seeds than the one  I got from One Green World.  It also has the very aromatic and delicious (to my taste buds) peel.

Only one of the half dozen seeds I actually planted germinated.  It's in the ground now, along with a graft of it on a FD rootstock.  Time will tell if the size, juiciness and relative seedlessness are inherited.  Also if it's as cold hardy as my One Green World Yuzu, which survived 8F (-13.3C) on a FD rootstock relatively undamaged. 
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on September 09, 2019, 11:17:03 AM
Radoslav, do you own all these varieties of sour Japanese citrus? Could you please drop a word about taste?  :-*
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: kolanp on September 11, 2019, 07:05:53 AM
What are the sweet taste varieties?
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 11, 2019, 10:16:15 AM
You should make a change there is a mistake in your list.
Keraji and Kabuchi are two different cultivars of mandarin, not the same.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Millet on September 11, 2019, 10:48:59 AM
Someone with the capabilities should try irradiating the Yuzu to see if they could get a seedless fruit, or at least a less seedy fruit.  There has already been several seedless citrus cultivars through irradiation.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 11, 2019, 02:16:10 PM
Someone with the capabilities should try irradiating the Yuzu to see if they could get a seedless fruit, or at least a less seedy fruit.  There has already been several seedless citrus cultivars through irradiation.

Gamma radiation would be the best, like they made ultra dwarf papaya.
There are also chemical mutagens used in breeding, but who risks their lives to do it, mishandling would  get you cancer instantly.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Bomand on September 11, 2019, 04:52:05 PM
What for???? The peel is all that most cooks are interested in. As for me.....I can not use yuzu.....the taste is a foul kerosene tasting oil that one needs to eat poncirus to kill the taste of yuzu..
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Bomand on September 11, 2019, 05:00:16 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japan-citrus-Yuzu-shishi-VAR-Lion-Yuzu-excellent-genus-3-Fresh-viable-seeds/133130061090?hash=item1eff2b8522:g:RrAAAOSwUGddQYjl (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japan-citrus-Yuzu-shishi-VAR-Lion-Yuzu-excellent-genus-3-Fresh-viable-seeds/133130061090?hash=item1eff2b8522:g:RrAAAOSwUGddQYjl)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: SoCal2warm on September 11, 2019, 05:53:01 PM
What for???? The peel is all that most cooks are interested in. As for me.....I can not use yuzu.....the taste is a foul kerosene tasting oil that one needs to eat poncirus to kill the taste of yuzu..
I totally disagree. I've tasted fresh yuzu picked right off the tree when it was very ripe, and could even manage to enjoy eating little bites out of the peel. It was pretty tender and less bitter than lemon peel. The inside wasn't bad either, though kind of dry, very sour, and full of seeds. I wouldn't disagree with anyone who says the inside is slightly skunky, but that's not how I would describe it.
It's nothing like poncirus.

I've also tasted yuzu from a local supermarket and it was much less ripe, the peel was much harder and not as tender, the inside resembled a bit more in the direction of a kaffir lime in texture.

Very ripe Yuzu has skin that's fairly loose and easy to peel, almost as easy as Satsuma, though I don't peel it when using it for cooking.

I'd agree though that most ordinary people would find yuzu very inferior to other standard lemons, but it does have a unique fragrance.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Millet on September 11, 2019, 09:04:40 PM
Buying seed off E-Bay is a dangerous gamble that they will ever germinate.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Bomand on September 11, 2019, 09:19:24 PM
I agree. Ebay is advertising a seedless yuzu.....I would not think about buying it. Ebay sellers are money grubbers not citrus people.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 12, 2019, 03:35:16 AM
Seedless Yuzu has approximately 1 seed per fruit.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Radoslav on September 12, 2019, 11:53:50 AM
You should make a change there is a mistake in your list.
Keraji and Kabuchi are two different cultivars of mandarin, not the same.

No

(https://i.postimg.cc/m1QGJyzZ/Nov-bitov-mapa.png) (https://postimg.cc/m1QGJyzZ)



(https://i.postimg.cc/kB40xCwX/Nov-bitov-mapa-2.png) (https://postimg.cc/kB40xCwX)
オートー(C. oto hort. ex Tanaka), カーブチー(Citrus keraji var. kabuchii hort. ex Tanaka, タロガヨ(C. tarogayo Hort. ex Tanaka), ウンジュ(C. tarogayo var. uniu Hort. ex  Tanaka)

Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 12, 2019, 12:54:47 PM
Radoslav,

In recent publication on citrus hybrid origin based  on DNA markers it was concluded that:

"Thus, kabuchi was inferred to be an offspring of kunenbo-A as seed parent and an unidentified variety, and
keraji was inferred to be an offspring of kabuchi and kunenbo-A, but their combination was indeterminate.
This inferred parentage suggests that keraji is a backcrossed offspring of kunenbo-A."


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969)


Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Radoslav on September 12, 2019, 02:03:53 PM
Radoslav,

In recent publication on citrus hybrid origin based  on DNA markers it was concluded that:

"Thus, kabuchi was inferred to be an offspring of kunenbo-A as seed parent and an unidentified variety, and
keraji was inferred to be an offspring of kabuchi and kunenbo-A, but their combination was indeterminate.
This inferred parentage suggests that keraji is a backcrossed offspring of kunenbo-A."


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969)

As I stated before, role of DNA analysis is overestimated, if you give  DNA sample to 10 laboratories, you will get 10 different results. I remember lecture of one czech scientist, who is considered to be one of the fathers of forensic usage of DNA. (He worked on Srebrenica mass grave for example). And he said, that he is very upset with the fact, that US judges use DNA analysis as 100% evidence. Those citrus parentage games are very popular in Japan. Here is another one from 2014 : Keraji, Kabuchii, and Oto are closely related to Kunenbo based on the results of isozyme and DNA analyses. The type of cpDNA of Keraji, Kabuchii, Tarogayo, and Oto is the same as that of Kunenbo. This suggests that they arose from Kunenbo as a female ancestor because cpDNA is inherited maternally.

Another thing is, that plants, no matter if they are crossed, or backcrossed, or mutations, botanically they still can be considered as a same species.  For example citrus junos or citrus keraji, or citrus sudachi etc. It means that you can find some differences on DNA level, but botanically those diferences are not important.
In fact DNA analysis say nothing in this case,  DNA markers are not the key elements for botanical categorization, otherwise we can say, that there is no citrus keraji, no citrus oto, no citrus tarogayo, just citrus nobilis, because of kunenbo genes in each plant.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 12, 2019, 05:56:31 PM
Interestingly, you citation on cpDNA parentage is exactly what is written in DNA marker paper. No contradiction at all.
Old morphological classification of Japanese varieties was made by T.Tanaka who already  pointed on the difference between Keraji and Kabuchi:

"The typical Keraji was found in two places in Okinawa, the first from Izumi,
Motobu-chO, and the other from Nago. Since they are handled as Kabuchii, it seems
probable that Okinawa peple are not familia rwith the mainland Keraji, neglecting
its presence in Okinawa. True Keraji should be segregated out from Kabuchii as
they are quite distinct"


Further Revision of Ryukyu Citrus : Revisio Aurantiacearum XIV
Tyozaburo TANAKA Bull.Univ.Osaka Pref. Ser.B. Vol.11 1961
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 13, 2019, 08:48:32 AM
This is my Shiikuwasha

(https://i.postimg.cc/S26vyJY6/DSC-1746.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/S26vyJY6)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Millet on September 13, 2019, 10:36:46 PM
Ilya11, your post about Okinawan citrus is interesting.  I lived on Okinawa for two years, and don't remember seeing a citrus tree of any type.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Bomand on September 14, 2019, 02:15:18 AM
Me too Millet. I did a lot of exploring around the island and can not recall seeing one citrus there. Perhaps my mind was on other things.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Radoslav on September 14, 2019, 02:28:51 AM
Here is document about citruses in chain of Ryukyu Islands (Okinawa is the biggest one).
http://cpi.kagoshima-u.ac.jp/publications/occasionalpapers/occasional/vol-54/OCCASIONAL_PAPERS_54(pp9-15).pdf (http://cpi.kagoshima-u.ac.jp/publications/occasionalpapers/occasional/vol-54/OCCASIONAL_PAPERS_54(pp9-15).pdf)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Radoslav on September 14, 2019, 03:02:58 AM
Radoslav,

In recent publication on citrus hybrid origin based  on DNA markers it was concluded that:

"Thus, kabuchi was inferred to be an offspring of kunenbo-A as seed parent and an unidentified variety, and
keraji was inferred to be an offspring of kabuchi and kunenbo-A, but their combination was indeterminate.
This inferred parentage suggests that keraji is a backcrossed offspring of kunenbo-A."


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969)


Hello,

I found another paper which  assumes that Keraji can be a cross of Kunenbo and Kikaimikan (Kabuchi). https://ir.kagoshima-u.ac.jp/?action=pages_view_main&active_action=repository_view_main_item_detail&item_id=2762&item_no=1&page_id=13&block_id=21
In another paper  this author states, that only morphologicall difference between Keraji and Kabuchi is smell of the fruit.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 14, 2019, 06:00:22 AM
Radoslav,
That is exactly what is claimed in DNA paper: Kabuchi is a hybrid between KunenboA and and unknown citrus variety with Keraji being its backcross to Kunenbo (KunenboA X Kabuchi).
For morphological differences- I just sent you by email two original  papers with  descriptions made by T.Tanaka
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Radoslav on September 14, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
Here are my citrus tarogayo seedlings .

(https://i.postimg.cc/7JPDPqqF/citrus-Tarogayo.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7JPDPqqF)


(https://i.postimg.cc/xqjSzTS7/DSCN1397.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xqjSzTS7)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Radoslav on September 14, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
Diferences between  citrus oto, citrus keraji var. kabuchi, citrus tarogayo and citrus tarogayo Unju in peel thicknes, shape of fruit and shape of seed.
https://blog.goo.ne.jp/nekogatame/e/18b6a197cc327d09b5088b6d9425bf94
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 16, 2019, 06:29:00 AM
Confusion between two mandarin (Citrus spp.) cultivars (Keraji and Kabuchi) that originated on the Amami Archipelago  [2002]

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=JP2003005704 (http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=JP2003005704)

paper is in japanese but you can use google translate.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 16, 2019, 07:21:53 AM
This paper has a Summary in English

(https://c.radikal.ru/c34/1909/16/e58c0236b3f6.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on September 16, 2019, 09:48:02 AM
And we do have the right Keraji? Hope so!
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 16, 2019, 10:22:48 AM
Another Table from this paper

(https://b.radikal.ru/b40/1909/27/d5910e0f1342.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lavender87 on September 16, 2019, 10:24:58 AM
  I heard that most of Japan' island fall in low temperature zones, but how did they grow many varieties of valuable citrus? There were also very limited information about Japan orchards being attacked by citrus diseases. Did Japanese possess more advanced technology than the US?

  I also noticed that plants grown in California were less being bothered by insects at least compared to GA. Here in GA, if you grow a peach or a plum tree without spraying continuously everyyear, it will be attacked by many diseases and will die after a few years. I have tried squash, cucumbers, and other veggies on frames, but their fruits were attacked horribly by insects even before they ripe. My parents in law in LA, CA has been growing lots of veggies like squashes and cucumbers without spraying any type of chemicals but never got attacked seriously by insects. There were insects in LA but not that bad that we got our crops ruined like it is in GA.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Bomand on September 16, 2019, 11:10:11 AM
CA is such a vast state. Nearly as long and as the US. There is as such many different terrains and many micro climes all over. Most of them are mild and it seems that pest do not become a huge burden like they do in a warm, wet and hospitable climate like in the South. Its a great environment for eating and breeding. You do not get a few......you get a slew.😁
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: SoCal2warm on September 16, 2019, 03:37:31 PM
  I heard that most of Japan' island fall in low temperature zones, but how did they grow many varieties of valuable citrus?
The main part of Japan where most of the population is concentrated is in zone 9b. (That would be equivalent to the northern part of commercial citrus growing territory)
There is also Japan's South, which is basically equivalent to Southern California or zone 10. Many of the native citrus varieties seem to have historically started there, and that is where most of the citrus diversity is.

Citrus trees are not very often seen much farther north than Tokyo.

Also the type of varieties traditionally grown in Japan appear to be generally just a little bit hardier than ordinary oranges. Buntan (pomelos) in Japan are usually only grown in the South.

Many of the mandarins can easily survive a light frost.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: SoCal2warm on September 16, 2019, 03:47:47 PM
  I also noticed that plants grown in California were less being bothered by insects at least compared to GA. Here in GA, if you grow a peach or a plum tree without spraying continuously everyyear, it will be attacked by many diseases and will die after a few years.
Yes, lower humidity. The summers in California, especially further away from the coast, are quite dry.

That's one of the reasons so much produce is commercially grown in the state. It's not exactly a lush green place where plants thrive, but the lack of rain during the summer half of the year and low humidity makes disease and pests much less of a problem than it is in other regions.
There are a few downsides to growing in that climate though, the plants can get more heat stressed, and will often do better with a little bit of shade, and it takes a lot of irrigation to make sure the plants get enough water. That has led to some problematic issues for growers in the state.


Japan's climate can get rather hot and humid during the late summer, but not as hot as Florida, and for much of the rest of the year Japan will have generally cooler more comfortable temperatures than the US Southeast.

It's not as much humidity that causes disease and pest issues, but heat combined with humidity.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 16, 2019, 05:40:03 PM
This paper has a Summary in English

Kikaijima is in zone 11b where keraji is found.

I wonder how far north it is found in Japan.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lavender87 on September 16, 2019, 06:33:21 PM
Thanks Socal2warm
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: SoCal2warm on September 17, 2019, 12:23:27 AM
Kikaijima is in zone 11b where keraji is found.

I wonder how far north it is found in Japan.
I'm not an expert, but from what I have been able to gather, the diversity of indigenous citrus types is much more limited outside the South of Japan, which was the traditional citrus growing area. So I would think Keraji would be very unlikely to be found outside of the Kikaijima, maybe Kagoshima area, possibly Kyushu or Shikoku. Satsuma and newer seedless mikan varieties have mostly supplanted the older varieties now.

If you started talking about Keraji, most Japanese people, even most Japanese citrus growers, would have no idea what you were talking about. Level of cold hardiness is less important now that citrus fruit can easily be transported over long distances.
As has happened in other parts of the world, Japan is poised to lose a lot of its diversity of traditional plant cultivars.

Also, from what information I've been able to gather about people's growing experiences in the U.S. Southeast, Keraji can survive 8a, but probably does better in zone 8b.
Keraji has more cold hardiness than Satsuma, but less cold hardiness than Yuzu. It seems to be able to survive about 12 °F in the Southeast, but in the Pacific Northwest, zone 8a, I had two medium sized Keraji seedlings both covered, one in a shady spot died and the other one in a sunnier spot almost completely died to the ground, but then later started growing back in June. It was maybe 5 or 6 inches tall when planted, now after suffering through a cold winter, dying almost to the ground, and going through an entire growing season, it is now only 1 inch tall (but it is a full 1 inch and is full of healthy looking leaves). That might help give you some idea of its level of hardiness, or the limit of what it can survive.

Kikaijima is the northernmost of the Ryukyu Islands, to the South of mainland Japan. It wouldn't be surprising if the citrus originally was brought there from Taiwan. (Probably would have been around 600 to 1200 years ago. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of some subspecies of Tachibana or Shikuwasa having been indigenous to this island)

Citrus varieties typically can tolerate a fair degree more cold than their native range in the wild. Which makes sense because they have to be adapted to be able to survive the unusually colder winters that come along only once every 40 years. Even Guangzhou, China, far south as it is, got a little snow in January 2016, the first time on record in 88 years.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: SoCal2warm on September 17, 2019, 01:17:23 AM
I also found an interesting mention to another rare traditional Japanese variety, named Hanaharu. ( 花良治みかん )

"The biggest feature is the unique refined fragrance not found in other citrus fruits. The scent is very strong, and when you begin to peel it, a good scent spreads throughout the area. There are basically no seeds, an exquisite balance of sweet and sour taste, a delicious taste even when it is blue, and an exceptional quality that is unparalleled.
A study by Kagoshima University that Hanaharu oranges may have originated from Kunenbo as a seed parent and Kikai oranges as a pollen parent"

https://www.kerajiya.com/shopdetail/018000000001/ (https://www.kerajiya.com/shopdetail/018000000001/)


I found another reference here that there is a production area for Keraji in Higashiizu. (Looking on a map, this appears to be considerably farther north, only a little south from Tokyo)
The article alluded to the fact that this variety was very hard to find.

"The other day, I participated in the Marche held in the basement of Yukiyuki Street in front of Tokyo Station. During this period, various citrus fruits are lined up in the Marche, from light lemon-colored Fudan to red blood orange. Every time the shop peels off the preparations for the tasting, a refreshing fragrance spreads and heals the fatigue of work.
There was an unusual thing to see for the first time among such citrus fruits.
Its name is “Keraji”. It seems to be a phantom, and the production area is Higashiizu. Originally it is native to the Keraji district of Kikaijima. Thank you for taking one of the tasting "I want to eat it", thank you and peel it off, and you will have a superb fragrance that you have never felt before. It is said that "It looks like bergamot?" The taste is a refreshing tangerine. If you rub the skin like an eggplant and cook it, it will be delicious. Phantom Keraji oranges, please feel the scent once you see it."

https://www.orange-garden-inc.jp/sommelier/mikan-introduction/ (https://www.orange-garden-inc.jp/sommelier/mikan-introduction/)


"Hanaraji Village is a small village located in the southwestern part of Kikaijima.

Sightseeing
The highlights of Keraji village
Haraharu oranges
The settlement of Hanaraji is also known as the birthplace of phantom mandarin oranges and mandarin oranges, and the season is from September to December. The mandarin orange is characterized by its unique and elegant fragrance, and its functionality is perfect, but it is also useful in local Kikaijima as a phantom mandarin orange that is small in volume and difficult to grow. It is not unusual for the island to be difficult to obtain, and it is traded at a very high price due to its uniqueness and rarity. "

http://kerajihouse.moon.bindcloud.jp/pg344776.html (http://kerajihouse.moon.bindcloud.jp/pg344776.html)

花良治集落 automatically translates as "Hanaraji village" but interestingly the Google translate also automatically seemed to recognize the "Hanaraji" component as "Keraji", and the name Keraji also appears in English form on that site. I don't know, but I suspect this could mean that "Hanaraji" actually should be "Keraji" in this context. The characters might refer to an older name, rather than the standard Japanese one for these characters.
Or maybe it could just be that Hanaraji is a more specific place within Keraji village?

"If you walk in the village, you will find a stone wall of a fence and an old narrow street. In the garden of a private house, you can see tropical plants and native citrus fruits (Kerajimikan ケラジミカン, Kuriha クリハー ( Kikikai Mikan 喜界島みかん ) , etc.) unique to the village of Hanara "

These are the same characters that refer to Kikkai mikan, so there's no doubt that "Kikikai" is just a different spelling for "Kikkai" here. Kikkai mikan was identified as one of the parents of Keraji mikan in another DNA marker analysis, which we are not going to elaborate on here.


This may be another source of interest, relevant to Japanese varieties in this specific area:
http://www.japanfruit.jp/Portals/0/images/fruit/endemic/pdf/mandarin1.pdf (http://www.japanfruit.jp/Portals/0/images/fruit/endemic/pdf/mandarin1.pdf)

English translation here: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.japanfruit.jp/Portals/0/images/fruit/endemic/pdf/mandarin1.pdf&prev=search (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.japanfruit.jp/Portals/0/images/fruit/endemic/pdf/mandarin1.pdf&prev=search)

Edit: I found out why google translate may have recognized Hanaraji as Keraji.
This source seems to indicate that Hanaharu mandarin (or Hanaryoji, as would be rendered by the translator) seems to be somewhat synonymous with Keraji mandarin, and Hanaharu uses the same exact first three characters in Hanaraji village.

" ケラジ ( 花良治 ) "
https://www.flower-db.com/ja/flower:687 (https://www.flower-db.com/ja/flower:687)

There's obviously a connection here, but I'm not sure I'm able to untangle it for sure.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 17, 2019, 03:18:15 AM

Kikaijima is in zone 11b where keraji is found.

I wonder how far north it is found in Japan.
Keraji is very resistant, in my garden it has not dropped a single leaf in two winters with -9C nights and snow.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Oolie on September 17, 2019, 04:49:53 AM
Does this (https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/CRC3144.html) resemble the Hanaharu?

In the first link you posted about 'hanaharu' the writing on the box says keraji.
The pronunciation of kanji depend on the context in which it is being used.
 
I am curious if the mikan you are referring to as hanaharu is not keraji.
I am interested in the unique scent and excellent sweet-acid balance at full blue (green)(Ao) stage that you describe.

I'm pretty sure it's Keraji, not Hanaharu.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: SoCal2warm on September 17, 2019, 06:39:25 PM
In the first link you posted about 'hanaharu' the writing on the box says keraji.
The pronunciation of kanji depend on the context in which it is being used.
I think they consider it to be a type of keraji. Some of the Japanese naming can be kind of ambiguous. They use names to refer to things much more loosely than a precise name that defines just one thing explicitly. So it would be an error to get caught up in semantics and take some of these names too literally. To say it more bluntly, just because they consider it to be keraji doesn't mean it is. Maybe it would be more apt to say it's more like it's in the "keraji family".

Since the parents of Hanaharu are Keraji and Kunenbo, and the parents of Keraji are Kikai mikan and Kunenbo, it's not at all surprising that Hanaharu would strongly resemble Keraji.
In fact, I think it's a fair guess that Hanaharu problably greatly resembles Kunenbo, albeit without the seeds, although I really can't say because I've never tasted either of them.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 17, 2019, 06:53:37 PM
"If you walk in the village, you will find a stone wall of a fence and an old narrow street. In the garden of a private house, you can see tropical plants and native citrus fruits (Kerajimikan ケラジミカン, Kuriha クリハー ( Kikikai Mikan 喜界島みかん ) , etc.) unique to the village of Hanara "

Can anyone identify the tree?  ;D

https://goo.gl/maps/ouvvKT9ewm1ESWC18
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 17, 2019, 07:12:46 PM

Keraji is very resistant, in my garden it has not dropped a single leaf in two winters with -9C nights and snow.
[/quote]

Ilya can you put some pictures with your tree? Also with leaves
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Oolie on September 17, 2019, 07:38:43 PM
In the first link you posted about 'hanaharu' the writing on the box says keraji.
The pronunciation of kanji depend on the context in which it is being used.
I think they consider it to be a type of keraji. Some of the Japanese naming can be kind of ambiguous. They use names to refer to things much more loosely than a precise name that defines just one thing explicitly. So it would be an error to get caught up in semantics and take some of these names too literally. To say it more bluntly, just because they consider it to be keraji doesn't mean it is. Maybe it would be more apt to say it's more like it's in the "keraji family".

Since the parents of Hanaharu are Keraji and Kunenbo, and the parents of Keraji are Kikai mikan and Kunenbo, it's not at all surprising that Hanaharu would strongly resemble Keraji.
In fact, I think it's a fair guess that Hanaharu problably greatly resembles Kunenbo, albeit without the seeds, although I really can't say because I've never tasted either of them.

Well you have garnered my interest in hanaharu. Do you have any links to sites containting info on hanaharu?
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 18, 2019, 06:20:17 AM
Quote from: lebmung
Ilya can you put some pictures with your tree? Also with leaves
Hello Theodor,
Here is my in ground plant. I regrafted the budwood from Tintory on poncirus, it is now in open without protection for four years.
Rather slow growing compared to the potted one on macrophylla.

(https://b.radikal.ru/b29/1909/2e/b42bf191850a.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)

(https://a.radikal.ru/a28/1909/9b/48f22afcd753.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)

Most fruits are seedless

(https://d.radikal.ru/d35/1909/76/d78f78bf8b2f.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)

But occasionally they contain few seeds

(https://c.radikal.ru/c22/1909/20/a8e490c2944f.jpg) (https://radikal.ru)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 18, 2019, 08:21:53 AM
Hello Theodor,
Here is my in ground plant. I regrafted the budwood from Tintory on poncirus, it is now in open without protection for four years.
Rather slow growing compared to the potted one on macrophylla.
Most fruits are seedless
But occasionally they contain few seeds
/quote]

Thanks for the pictures. I have the same specimen. I will graft few on PT.
Does it taste good?
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 18, 2019, 09:00:22 AM
Yes, it has a pleasant smell  and very good balance of sugar/acidity, not at all "Japan acid citrus" ;D
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 18, 2019, 02:19:23 PM
Yes, it has a pleasant smell  and very good balance of sugar/acidity, not at all "Japan acid citrus" ;D

Sounds good! I read some articles where they that say it has a brix of 12, similar to satsuma wase. The difference is the ripening period. In Japan that is in December/January tge longer stays on tree the sweater it gets.
My question is if a frost comes in December let's say - 5C will the fruit be ruined?
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 18, 2019, 02:21:54 PM
So here I just grafted keraji


(https://i.postimg.cc/kBhKtBQH/DSC-1782.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kBhKtBQH)
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 18, 2019, 02:50:55 PM
My Keraji in a pot is flowering in April, fruits are turning yellow in November, at this stage they are not particularly sweet but can be eaten out of hand.
The inground plant flowers in May but has not fruited yet.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Zitrusgaertner on September 19, 2019, 08:44:00 AM
Ilya, you said Keraji ist growing slowly, but mine, high crafted on Poncirus, are the fastest growing plants of all my citri.
I am talking about the in-ground plants in the green house. It is their second year and they have a dense crown of 60cm. Of cause they have been cropped for  round shape. There are four of them -all the same.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 19, 2019, 09:32:38 AM
Robert,

My plant is in the ground, no protection.  It  starts to grow rather late in a season.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 19, 2019, 12:26:19 PM
Ilya, you said Keraji ist growing slowly, but mine, high crafted on Poncirus, are the fastest growing plants of all my citri.
I am talking about the in-ground plants in the green house. It is their second year and they have a dense crown of 60cm. Of cause they have been cropped for  round shape. There are four of them -all the same.

PT breaks dormancy faster in greenhouse than outside so faster growth. Also I guess it matters the age of roostock, plus what I notices there is a large variety in PT seedling growth rate.
From my latest experiment from 60 PT seeds I got, 30 growing very fast, 30 medium, and 30 slow growth. All variables were the same.

Nothing beats macrophylla if you have warm temperatures all the time.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Oolie on September 21, 2019, 09:03:00 PM
Hello Ilya, how is the zest on the Keraji? Any suggested uses?
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Ilya11 on September 22, 2019, 03:55:20 AM
Very aromatic, resembling satsuma peel.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on September 23, 2019, 06:11:09 AM
It would be interesting to make a Satsuma/Keraji cross maybe the fruit would get bigger.
I did a Satsuma/Key lime let's see how it grows.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: CanadaGrower on October 07, 2019, 06:12:40 PM
SoCal2Warm, since I can read and write Japanese to a certain extent, I can confirm that it is NOT call Hanaharu. It is in fact read as Keraji. Japanese can be very confusing at times as there are multiple way of reading the same kanji. Generally speaking, the reading of kanji can be split into Onyomi and Kunyomi. In this case, it is simply read as keraji I hope this clears up any confusion.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Organic Cavalry on October 07, 2019, 08:41:34 PM
When is the optimum time to harvest Yuzu?
I expect to use the rind green... I am in 9b and do not know my variety... I asked fourwinds if they knew...

Thankyou
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: CanadaGrower on October 07, 2019, 09:09:13 PM
Organic Cavalry, traditionally Yuzu is picked ripe (yellow). Kabosu/Sudachi are usually the ones that are used while still green. That said, all signs point to picking fruit around Nov/Dec. I have quite a few on mine and intend to wait another month or so until they are ripe
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Organic Cavalry on October 08, 2019, 08:49:12 PM
Organic Cavalry, traditionally Yuzu is picked ripe (yellow). Kabosu/Sudachi are usually the ones that are used while still green. That said, all signs point to picking fruit around Nov/Dec. I have quite a few on mine and intend to wait another month or so until they are ripe

I email fourwinds growers and Carrie said as far as she knows there is only 1 yuzu variety... She sent me this link.
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/citrus/yuzu1.html
I just want to be able to identify my tree correctly.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: lebmung on October 09, 2019, 03:53:04 AM
There are many varieties. Some bigger some smaller,  one seedless and many hybrids.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: CanadaGrower on October 09, 2019, 03:53:58 PM
Organic Calvary, Sudachi, Yuzu and Kabosu are all different. Sudachi is generally smaller, and primarily grown in Tokushima prefecture they are usually picked while green and not allowed to ripen. Kabosu is also picked green and much larger it's generally used in sashimi and sushi. Yuzu is the largest of all and picked ripe and it used for everything from making Yuzu Tea(more like marmalade), ponzu sauce, grated over fish and even used in Onsen or Roten-Buro. I'm not sure how interchangeable these varieties are as Tokushima is on the island of Shikoku which is generally much warmer than the island of Honshu.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: SoCal2warm on October 09, 2019, 04:45:54 PM
SoCal2Warm, since I can read and write Japanese to a certain extent, I can confirm that it is NOT call Hanaharu. It is in fact read as Keraji. Japanese can be very confusing at times as there are multiple way of reading the same kanji. Generally speaking, the reading of kanji can be split into Onyomi and Kunyomi. In this case, it is simply read as keraji I hope this clears up any confusion.
Interesting to know. I suspected that.
So there's an alternate way to write "Keraji" in kanji?
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: CanadaGrower on October 09, 2019, 10:39:48 PM
I'm going to say likely not. With Japanese often times names can be written in kanji that seems to make little or no sense. Since the the Keraji fruit is named after what appears to be a municipality I would surmise that it is a case where it is simply understood that it is read as Keraji. Much of these anomalies and etymologies are lost in time. I can guarantee you that MANY Japanese would struggle to know how to write that in kanji if they were not locals and were unaware of the fruit itself.
Title: Re: Japan acid citruses
Post by: Oolie on October 11, 2019, 06:58:28 AM
SoCal2Warm, since I can read and write Japanese to a certain extent, I can confirm that it is NOT call Hanaharu. It is in fact read as Keraji. Japanese can be very confusing at times as there are multiple way of reading the same kanji. Generally speaking, the reading of kanji can be split into Onyomi and Kunyomi. In this case, it is simply read as keraji I hope this clears up any confusion.
Interesting to know. I suspected that.
So there's an alternate way to write "Keraji" in kanji?

Different kanji share the same sounds, so it is possible, but the meaning would be different.
In this case kanji can have multiple sounds (https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/onyomi-kunyomi/), which is why google translate is having a tough time.

Like CanadaGrower has stated, some kanji have archaic pronunciations which don't exist in common diction, but are instead read in the 'old way' when used in locational contexts (place names).

I'm glad that the mystery is solved, I would love to try Keraji.