Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: scamper on September 10, 2019, 12:17:40 PM

Title: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: scamper on September 10, 2019, 12:17:40 PM
I'm trying to make a decision on how to go ahead with my citrus plans. They will be planted in large containers/pots and I plan to bring them in the house or put them in them in the greenhouse for the winter. However, my concerns are mainly with choosing the right rootstock. Everything nearest commercial that I've found is on C-35, and I assume this is for good reason - being that most people aren't planting them in large containers in the midwest.

I've read various things about how flying dragon, though, is a more optimal chose if I'm trying to maximize the dwarfing effect and preciousness. Yet, I'm curious, why isn't flying dragon used more frequently over C-35? I came across a "post on Houzz that mentions that " 'Flying Dragon' just isn't used here in S. California for a multitude of reasons. " (https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1835372/dwarf-lemon-meyer-rootstock-at-homedepot). Yet it seems an very popular choice in Australia for commercial production.... (https://brunswickplants.com.au/content/citrus-information). Why isn't "flying dragon" used very much in cali (https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1835372/dwarf-lemon-meyer-rootstock-at-homedepot) (commercial production or not)? (Interestingly, I was reading that FD as a rootstock was trialed successfully (https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/abstract/journals/hortsci/47/1/article-p11.xml) to overcome some of the problems related to growing citrus in the tropics (https://www.yara.us/crop-nutrition/citrus/agronomic-principles/). Environmental factors affecting brix/acid ratio for cirtus (https://irrec.ifas.ufl.edu/flcitrus/pdfs/short_course_and_workshop/factors_fruit_quality/Koch-Production_and_Environmental_Factors.pdf).)

Can anyone help explain to me the pros vs cons of choosing flying dragon as a rootstock over C-35? Is it vigor?

I saw several posts mentioning that flying dragon is a slow grower (source1 (https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5234078/flying-dragon-rootstock-vs-others), source2 (https://ucanr.edu/sites/gardenweb/files/29080.pdf)). Is this trait imbued to all grafts? Is it graft specific?

I also saw there were new rootstocks released - US-802, US-812, US-897, US-942 (https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/extension/citrus_rootstock/Rootstock_Literature/Bowman%20Faulkner%20Kesinger%202016.pdf), of which US897 is supposed to be true dwarfing (https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5234078/flying-dragon-rootstock-vs-others). Is this true? Are any of these actually available to be purchased? I can't find them listed even at Treesource (http://www.citrustreesource.com/Products/Seed.aspx).

My original desire was to get a slower growing dwarfing citrus, hence my tendencies toward looking to a true dwarfing rootstock. This is how it's done for apples (M27) (https://casfs.ucsc.edu/documents/for-the-fruit-grower/rootstock-basics.pdf), so I assumed same principle applies to citrus. I'm not very familiar with citrus in general, so looking for some guidance.

My eventual grafting goals are blood orange, meyer lemon, yuzu, and transferring an existing meiwa on c-35 to something more dwarfing.


Links for future self-reference: Rootstocks With Dwarfing Effect (http://calag.ucanr.edu/archive/?type=pdf&article=ca.v004n02p5), Citrus Rootstock characteristics (CITTgroups July 2009) (http://wacitrus.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Varieties-Rootstocks_Rootstock-Characteristics-Scion-Capabilities_Helen-Ramsey_July-2009.pdf), Choosing a Rootstock (http://wacitrus.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Varieties-Rootstocks_Rootstock-Characteristics-Scion-Capabilities_Helen-Ramsey_July-2009.pdf).
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: starch on September 10, 2019, 12:40:33 PM
Hi scamper!

I understand your concern for dwarfing. In AZ citrus used to be propagated on Flying Dragon or Sour Orange rootstock. More often now it is all almost always on C-35. I have many citrus trees on both Sour Orange and C-35 and both seem to be fairly vigorous rootstocks. I seem to recall that C-35 is more disease resistant, not necessarily dwarfing.

Question: You have an existing Meiwa on C-35. You need to transfer it to something more dwarfing? I am surprised. In AZ citrus grows incredibly fast. And I have a several year old Meiwa kumquat and it is maybe 5-6 ft tall. Very slow growing. But very productive for it's size. Do you get a good harvest off your kumquats in Chicago?

Good luck on your research!
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: lebmung on September 10, 2019, 12:57:42 PM
There are limitations on FD. Benching is one of them.
Growing very slowly then you will need to wait many many years to have a big tree in 10 gallon container.
It's good for ornamental purpose to gave few citrus fruits in the tree. If you intend to eat from eat it again you need to wait years.
I use selected vigorous PT and a selected Ischang papeda.
You can use comercial rootstockand you can repot the trees every year until final pot then after every 2-3 years prune the roots and change the soil.
Hard tap water is a killer for FD.
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: scamper on September 10, 2019, 02:29:03 PM
Hi scamper!

I understand your concern for dwarfing. In AZ citrus used to be propagated on Flying Dragon or Sour Orange rootstock. More often now it is all almost always on C-35. I have many citrus trees on both Sour Orange and C-35 and both seem to be fairly vigorous rootstocks. I seem to recall that C-35 is more disease resistant, not necessarily dwarfing.

Question: You have an existing Meiwa on C-35. You need to transfer it to something more dwarfing? I am surprised. In AZ citrus grows incredibly fast. And I have a several year old Meiwa kumquat and it is maybe 5-6 ft tall. Very slow growing. But very productive for it's size. Do you get a good harvest off your kumquats in Chicago?

Good luck on your research!

It's abot 3-4 feet. Not sure age, since it was a gift. I figured if I put it on FD it might help slow down growth even more since I get lazy with pruning and want to keep it 3-4 max.

There are limitations on FD. Benching is one of them.
Growing very slowly then you will need to wait many many years to have a big tree in 10 gallon container.
It's good for ornamental purpose to gave few citrus fruits in the tree. If you intend to eat from eat it again you need to wait years.
I use selected vigorous PT and a selected Ischang papeda.
You can use comercial rootstockand you can repot the trees every year until final pot then after every 2-3 years prune the roots and change the soil.
Hard tap water is a killer for FD.

By benching do you mean the incompatibly line at the graft union? What limiting factor does benching have on the scion? (With apples it either takes or it doesn't pretty much, so just trying to clarify.)

With FD I was under the impression that while it grows slowing, it also induces precociousness, no?

Why is hard tap water a killer for FD? I have hard well water which then goes to RO.
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: Ulfr on September 10, 2019, 09:19:31 PM
I have 8 or so trees on flying dragon. They all have benching but not sure how/if that affects the tree, they produce well for their size (too well). Trees were all precocious but I would have thought all grafting citrus were. The downside (and the reason why you shouldn't care about them being precocious) is that they do grow VEEERY slowly. I pull most fruit off. I don't hate pruning and wish at times I had used a more vigorous rootstock.


This might interest you about the more recent going ons in Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjIu4GnX4Rc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjIu4GnX4Rc)
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: lebmung on September 11, 2019, 04:55:51 PM

By benching do you mean the incompatibly line at the graft union? What limiting factor does benching have on the scion? (With apples it either takes or it doesn't pretty much, so just trying to clarify.)

With FD I was under the impression that while it grows slowing, it also induces precociousness, no?

Why is hard tap water a killer for FD? I have hard well water which then goes to RO.

FD starts to have sprouts which will take over the graft if not maintained. Precociousness is a long story. It doesn't really matter for your purpose.

FD likes slightly acidic soil, Iron will not be available at higher pH, sensitive to calcareous soils and a high salts content kills the tree. The main the reason is slow growing that  it's not used on commercial applications.
I also use it for decorative trees to have few fruits on the tree in a small pot for citrus not so important.
The thing is you plan to plant them in large containers and you expect to eat from them I suppose.
Moving a FD recently grafted to a 15 gallon container will probably take you 10 years or even more whereas with another rootstock it could be in 3 years, but then there will be the job of trimming and root pruning.
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: brian on September 11, 2019, 08:38:14 PM
I assume this is what is meant by benching:

(http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/images/crease1a.jpg)

All of my kumquats show this, I believe they are grafted onto FD.  They don't appear to be harmed by it, though.
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: sosamo on September 13, 2019, 01:21:46 PM
Hi, I am in So. Cal. I want to try to graft citrus varieties (kumquats / mandarins/ etc), where can you get rootstocks?  I never done grafting before.  I know I can order budwood, etc from CCPP, but getting the rootstocks that are compatible is the issue.

I have 2 palmetto trees (2ft tall, not sure the variety) from seeds.  I wonder if I can graft on there.
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: forumfool on September 13, 2019, 02:35:16 PM
Iíve gotten flying dragon seeds and seedlings from eBay but seedlings might be an issue for you being in California
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: sosamo on September 13, 2019, 03:02:56 PM
Iíve gotten flying dragon seeds and seedlings from eBay but seedlings might be an issue for you being in California

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: flying dragon vs c-35 for meiwa and improved meyer
Post by: scamper on September 15, 2019, 02:05:20 PM
Thanks everyone. Given me a lot to think about.

I have 8 or so trees on flying dragon. They all have benching but not sure how/if that affects the tree, they produce well for their size (too well). Trees were all precocious but I would have thought all grafting citrus were. The downside (and the reason why you shouldn't care about them being precocious) is that they do grow VEEERY slowly. I pull most fruit off. I don't hate pruning and wish at times I had used a more vigorous rootstock.


This might interest you about the more recent going ons in Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjIu4GnX4Rc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjIu4GnX4Rc)

That was really interesting. I found these other links that help explain it. Dwarfing viroid keeps orange trees compact (https://citrusaustralia.com.au/news/latest-news/dwarfing-viroid-keeps-orange-trees-compact)  New South Wales DPI (https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/horticulture/citrus/content/orchard-development/orchard-development-factsheets/dwarfing-viroids)