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Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: sharkbait on April 18, 2020, 05:58:50 PM

Title: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 18, 2020, 05:58:50 PM
Here's a topic that has been discussed before, but now with new updates in the last ~8 years.  I'll note that I'm coming from the background of a hobby backyard grower of annona myself, and still intend to eat them in moderation.  I do not wish to discuss the epidemiological studies, which have already been beaten to death elsewhere on this forum.

Some of the newer studies have shown:
-NMR and liquid chromatography mass spec quantified the amount of annonacin and squamocin in the fruit pulp of graviola, atemoya (some posters previously argued it was only in the seed, and safe as long as spit out the seeds).  See this study for the numerical quantities of annonacin and squamocin:
https://www.scribd.com/document/314499988/FDA-Annona (https://www.scribd.com/document/314499988/FDA-Annona) (google lc-ms and nmr analyses of neurotoxic fruits in the annonaceae family).  This study found approximately  1034 ug/g of annonacin in graviola pulp from brazil.  Atemoya pulp had lower quantity at 3.68 ug/g annonacin, but did have 76.2 ug/g of squamocin.

-pharmacokinetics studies show the oral bioavaibility of annonacin was approximately 3% in rats (https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0034-1394993 (https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0034-1394993))

-annonacin crosses the blood brain barrier once in the blood stream (Champy P, Hoglinger GU, Feger J, et al. Annonacin, a lipophilic inhibitor
of mitochondrial complex I, induces nigral and striatal neurodegeneration
in rats: possible relevance for atypical parkinsonism in Guadeloupe. J
Neurochem 2004;88:63-69. )

-annonacin and other acetogenins are powerful mitochondrial poisons (Acetogenins exhibit their neurotoxic and anticancer properties by inhibiting the mitochondrial NADH:ubiquinone oxidoreductase (complex I of the respiratory chain) (HŲllerhage et al., 2009).)

One of the key issues in Parkinsonism-type syndromes is a reduction in nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons.  Once these neurons are gone in an adult, they don't grow back.  As an adult you have a certain number, and can only lose them..

There was a separate discussion on the growingfruit forum about the hand tremor that Neal Peterson has in some youtube grafting videos, with posters there making various inferences (https://vimeo.com/236955626 (https://vimeo.com/236955626)).  He responded publically in that thread to those posters on the tremor (https://growingfruit.org/t/the-dangers-of-pawpaw-consumption/16536/48 (https://growingfruit.org/t/the-dangers-of-pawpaw-consumption/16536/48)).  I won't write any opinion on that, read the thread and comments for yourself, just linking the prior discussion here.


The point of this is it does seem like these neurotoxic compounds are in the fruit pulps, and it also appears like eating said fruit will cause some of it to get absorbed.  To what degree they could cause an issue is unknown or in what quantities. 

Are you aware of these newer NMR/mass spec studies, and what are your thoughts?  I feel strongly that the poison is in the dose, and will continue to eat a few beloved cherimoya/atemoya here and there, just not daily. 
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: edzone9 on April 18, 2020, 06:06:14 PM
Big Pharma Disinformation...
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 18, 2020, 06:09:28 PM
yes I am a secret agent for big pharma and have a tin foil hat

big pharma is faking those NMR numbers /s
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 18, 2020, 06:28:45 PM
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Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Capt Ram on April 19, 2020, 06:23:32 AM
[Great info thanks, I had heard this is probably true with soursop but I had no idea it would have affect related fruits Anonas,



quote author=edzone9 link=topic=38943.msg385364#msg385364 date=1587247574]
Big Pharma Disinformation...
[/quote]
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: roblack on April 19, 2020, 09:26:36 AM
Makes me just a little less excited about my first atemoya and sugar apple fruits, and all those guanabana and rollinia ripening.

Obviously there is need for further research.

What if we find out mangoes are toxic? Don't think I could stop.

Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 09:38:24 AM
One main thing that I see that makes me question this kind of study is the fact that right off the bat there is an oxymoron... there CANNOT be a neurotoxin that is also anticancer and vice versa, that is just absurd. :o

Another huge issue: where do people get this misinformation that cells don't regenerate I wonder ::) ANY cell in the human body is capable of regeneration, just need the right medium ;)

I can just hear people already chainsawing their annonas... please feel free to send all unwanted annonas my way ;)
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 09:42:16 AM
Makes me just a little less excited about my first atemoya and sugar apple fruits, and all those guanabana and rollinia ripening.

Obviously there is need for further research.

What if we find out mangoes are toxic? Don't think I could stop.

Thanks for posting.

lol that is my issue.  i think they taste too good to stop, and the research isn't there to prove stopping altogether.  I do think it would be more of a well known issue if these fruits were just causing problems all over, but its a relatively quiet issue. 

I mostly grow atemoya and those have lower concentrations of annonacin, but still about half the graviola dose of squamocin if that study is true.  my plan is just to share more of my harvest with others. 

luckily with mangos the big issue is a contact dermatitis.  i could care less if my hands turn a little red and indurated from touching...i can always just wear gloves
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 09:44:03 AM
One main thing that I see that makes me question this kind of study is the fact that right off the bat there is an oxymoron... there CANNOT be a neurotoxin that is also anticancer and vice versa, that is just absurd. :o

I can just hear people already chainsawing their annonas... please feel free to send all unwanted annonas my way ;)

why not? plenty of physiological active compounds and drugs have multiple effects, side effects, differing effects on different tissues.  Also these fruits have a plethora of compounds and isomers of those compounds, which will all have different effects.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 09:45:56 AM
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Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 09:49:33 AM
One main thing that I see that makes me question this kind of study is the fact that right off the bat there is an oxymoron... there CANNOT be a neurotoxin that is also anticancer and vice versa, that is just absurd. :o

I can just hear people already chainsawing their annonas... please feel free to send all unwanted annonas my way ;)

why not? plenty of physiological active compounds and drugs have multiple effects, side effects, differing effects on different tissues
Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron

I also take issue with the statement that as an adult you can only lose neurons... so only children are capable of regeneration of these cells? This is nonsense!
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 09:55:05 AM

Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron
[/quote]

most anti-cancer medications don't 'regenerate' cells, especially cancer cells that have mutated and lost their cellular regulatory functions.  most anti-cancer medications are intended to kill off (not regenerate) cancer cells, and the majority also kill off or damage healthy cells in process
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 10:01:31 AM
I also take issue with the statement that as an adult you can only lose neurons... so only children are capable of regeneration of these cells? This is nonsense!
[/quote]

loss of nigrostriatal dopamingeric neurons are usually thought of as permanent with our present treatments...in 25-50 yrs might be different
loss of CNS neurons are typically permanent, while peripheral (non central nervous system) regularly regenerate
i do possess a neuroscience degree from a major US university..

"Despite decades of research, there is still no therapy that can slow, stop or regenerate the dying midbrain DA neurons in PD. Current drug treatment regimes typically involve dopamine-replacement strategies."  Targeting transcriptional regulators to regenerate midbrain dopaminergic axons in Parkinson's disease.  http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty (http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty)

Why do you think the treatments in Parkinsons typically address the symptoms and not the root cause
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 10:04:12 AM
I also take issue with the statement that as an adult you can only lose neurons... so only children are capable of regeneration of these cells? This is nonsense!


loss of CNS nigrostriatal dopamingeric neurons are usually thought of as permanent with our present treatments...in 25-50 yrs or w/ experimental treatments might be different
loss of CNS neurons are typically permanent, while peripheral (non central nervous system) regularly regenerate
i do possess a neuroscience degree from a major US university..

"Despite decades of research, there is still no therapy that can slow, stop or regenerate the dying midbrain DA neurons in PD. Current drug treatment regimes typically involve dopamine-replacement strategies."  Targeting transcriptional regulators to regenerate midbrain dopaminergic axons in Parkinson's disease.  http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty (http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty)

Why do you think the treatments in Parkinsons typically address the symptoms and not the root cause
[/quote]
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 10:04:27 AM
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Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 10:04:44 AM
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Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 10:05:36 AM
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Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 10:07:11 AM

Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron

most anti-cancer medications don't 'regenerate' cells, especially cancer cells that have mutated and lost their cellular regulatory functions.  most anti-cancer medications are intended to kill off (not regenerate) cancer cells, and the majority also kill off or damage healthy cells in process
[/quote]
Well you hit the nail on the head here... No anti-cancer medication, or medication in general can regenerate cells as that is not the purpose, nor do they have the chemical properties to be regenerative, only degenerative.

 You cannot target a single cell with a medication without damaging surrounding cells as seen in these chemotherapy drugs. The problem is they are degenerating more cells in an effort to destroy damaged cells the body should be able to naturally eliminate. It is a counterproductive exercise when you think about it.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 10:24:42 AM
I also take issue with the statement that as an adult you can only lose neurons... so only children are capable of regeneration of these cells? This is nonsense!


loss of nigrostriatal dopamingeric neurons are usually thought of as permanent with our present treatments...in 25-50 yrs might be different
loss of CNS neurons are typically permanent, while peripheral (non central nervous system) regularly regenerate
i do possess a neuroscience degree from a major US university..

"Despite decades of research, there is still no therapy that can slow, stop or regenerate the dying midbrain DA neurons in PD. Current drug treatment regimes typically involve dopamine-replacement strategies."  Targeting transcriptional regulators to regenerate midbrain dopaminergic axons in Parkinson's disease.  http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty (http://www.nrronline.org/article.asp?issn=1673-5374;year=2017;volume=12;issue=11;spage=1814;epage=1815;aulast=Hegarty)

Why do you think the treatments in Parkinsons typically address the symptoms and not the root cause
[/quote]


I love that statement... Why do you think ANY medical treatment is designed to address the symptoms and not the ROOT CAUSE ;)

I know the answer to this, I would imagine you are intelligent enough to, I just wish more people would get to the root of things. Maybe they would if we had a more honest, straightforward community of health practitioners whose main priority would be integrity instead of narcissism ;)

I'm not here to throw around accolades, I'm not narcissistic... I have worked in the field of medicine and have a great understanding is all I'll say.

That being said, whatever you are quoting keeps using the word typically and usually. I'm an optimistic person, I'll take the regeneration and not tell people something is impossible when it is not.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: edzone9 on April 19, 2020, 10:47:26 AM
I trust in nature more than any synthetic  pharmaceutical drugs on the market!

Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 10:59:46 AM
I trust in nature more than any synthetic  pharmaceutical drugs on the market!

Amen brother!  There's the spirit. Wish more people had the common sense to investigate what they are putting into their bodies... ;)
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: NateTheGreat on April 19, 2020, 11:57:14 AM

Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron

most anti-cancer medications don't 'regenerate' cells, especially cancer cells that have mutated and lost their cellular regulatory functions.  most anti-cancer medications are intended to kill off (not regenerate) cancer cells, and the majority also kill off or damage healthy cells in process
Well you hit the nail on the head here... No anti-cancer medication, or medication in general can regenerate cells as that is not the purpose, nor do they have the chemical properties to be regenerative, only degenerative.

 You cannot target a single cell with a medication without damaging surrounding cells as seen in these chemotherapy drugs. The problem is they are degenerating more cells in an effort to destroy damaged cells the body should be able to naturally eliminate. It is a counterproductive exercise when you think about it.
[/quote]

It is not counterproductive to kill cancer cells. Sometimes the cost is too great, but it is productive. What cancer treatments you are referring to that regenerate cells?

For those saying we'd have seen the effects, or that time has shown these are safe, we have seen the effects: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17303592 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17303592)

It seems like stem or leaf tea is a bad idea. Soursop and pawpaw fruits are probably safe, but more research is needed. Not more sticking heads in the sand cause you don't like what the research says, calling it disinformation, and saying you know more about medicine than the researchers.


Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: edzone9 on April 19, 2020, 12:50:15 PM
I trust in nature more than any synthetic  pharmaceutical drugs on the market!

Amen brother!  There's the spirit. Wish more people had the common sense to investigate what they are putting into their bodies... ;)

Those with ears to hear...
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 12:51:37 PM

Yes, of course these drugs all have multiple side effects as they damage different types of cells that carry out different biological functions...

 I stand by my statement that something cannot damage a cell AND regenerate a cell at the same time, it is just common sense. Neurotoxin and anticarcinogen would be an oxymoron

most anti-cancer medications don't 'regenerate' cells, especially cancer cells that have mutated and lost their cellular regulatory functions.  most anti-cancer medications are intended to kill off (not regenerate) cancer cells, and the majority also kill off or damage healthy cells in process
Well you hit the nail on the head here... No anti-cancer medication, or medication in general can regenerate cells as that is not the purpose, nor do they have the chemical properties to be regenerative, only degenerative.

 You cannot target a single cell with a medication without damaging surrounding cells as seen in these chemotherapy drugs. The problem is they are degenerating more cells in an effort to destroy damaged cells the body should be able to naturally eliminate. It is a counterproductive exercise when you think about it.

It is not counterproductive to kill cancer cells. Sometimes the cost is too great, but it is productive. What cancer treatments you are referring to that regenerate cells?

For those saying we'd have seen the effects, or that time has shown these are safe, we have seen the effects: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17303592 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17303592)

It seems like stem or leaf tea is a bad idea. Soursop and pawpaw fruits are probably safe, but more research is needed. Not more sticking heads in the sand cause you don't like what the research says, calling it disinformation, and saying you know more about medicine than the researchers.
[/quote]

I'm not claiming any anticancer treatment regenerates I'm saying it does the opposite...

If you get your lymphatic and eliminative systems (kidneys) working like they should then you shouldn't be seeing damaged cells, and if they are there then your body can eliminate them like it is meant to.

What does fruit have to with medicine anyways?  If you wany to talk about medical research go right ahead but to claim fruit causes diseases is ridiculous... we all know how big a deal the medical community would make if one were to claim fruit cures diseases... >:(

Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 02:15:46 PM

What does fruit have to with medicine anyways?  If you wany to talk about medical research go right ahead but to claim fruit causes diseases is ridiculous... we all know how big a deal the medical community would make if one were to claim fruit cures diseases... >:(

I'm sorry but this is one of the dumbest things I've heard.

You have stated plenty of factual claims in this thread based off nothing but your opinion..  I've at least provided hard data (NMR and mass spec) backing up what I'm saying.  If you want to pretend like this is "fake news" and chemical analysis is made up, that is fine.

You do know plenty of natural substances are deadly or cause disease right.  I wouldn't recommend munching on datura or castor bean seeds for instance...both of which contain "natural" substances.  This idea that all natural plant based substances can't harm or do no wrong is moronic. 

Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Garden_Harley_FL on April 19, 2020, 02:23:01 PM
Wont stop me from eating all the annonas I see. Fruit is medicine - it will always be to me. My grandparents have lived both past 100 eating annonas all their life on their farm in Colombia and I plan on doing the same  ;)
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: shot on April 19, 2020, 03:18:58 PM
All fruits and vegetables contain some toxins in minute quantities.The new theory of toxins in vegetables and fruit help turn over damaged cells?

http://nautil.us/issue/15/turbulence/fruits-and-vegetables-are-trying-to-kill-you (http://nautil.us/issue/15/turbulence/fruits-and-vegetables-are-trying-to-kill-you)
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 04:06:31 PM

What does fruit have to with medicine anyways?  If you wany to talk about medical research go right ahead but to claim fruit causes diseases is ridiculous... we all know how big a deal the medical community would make if one were to claim fruit cures diseases... >:(

I'm sorry but this is one of the dumbest things I've heard.

You have stated plenty of factual claims in this thread based off nothing but your opinion..  I've at least provided hard data (NMR and mass spec) backing up what I'm saying.  If you want to pretend like this is "fake news" and chemical analysis is made up, that is fine.

You do know plenty of natural substances are deadly or cause disease right.  I wouldn't recommend munching on datura or castor bean seeds for instance...both of which contain "natural" substances.  This idea that all natural plant based substances can't harm or do no wrong is moronic.

It is moronic and I didn't state anywhere that all natural compounds are benign so not sure where that comes from... ???

But it is equally moronic to imply that a fruit causes a specific disease based on a few chemical compounds in a fruit "causing" deterioration in a rat. You can bend all kind of studies to imply what you want.

What else did the rat eat, what kind of water was it subjected to drink? What was the TDS of the water? The pH? , what was the pH of the air it breathed? I get you want to state an opinion and I am entitled to mine as well...
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 04:10:38 PM

What does fruit have to with medicine anyways?  If you wany to talk about medical research go right ahead but to claim fruit causes diseases is ridiculous... we all know how big a deal the medical community would make if one were to claim fruit cures diseases... >:(

I'm sorry but this is one of the dumbest things I've heard.

You have stated plenty of factual claims in this thread based off nothing but your opinion..  I've at least provided hard data (NMR and mass spec) backing up what I'm saying.  If you want to pretend like this is "fake news" and chemical analysis is made up, that is fine.

You do know plenty of natural substances are deadly or cause disease right.  I wouldn't recommend munching on datura or castor bean seeds for instance...both of which contain "natural" substances.  This idea that all natural plant based substances can't harm or do no wrong is moronic.

 Here you go, right off the bat a quick article regarding Princeton University findings on Cellular Regeneration in the brain... Just because you are in denial and can't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't occur

https://www.thoughtco.com/regeneration-of-brain-cells-373181 (https://www.thoughtco.com/regeneration-of-brain-cells-373181)
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 04:20:49 PM
Wont stop me from eating all the annonas I see. Fruit is medicine - it will always be to me. My grandparents have lived both past 100 eating annonas all their life on their farm in Colombia and I plan on doing the same  ;)

How is this possibleeeeeeeeeeeeeee?!?!?!?!

Also where is your proof?!

I'm just kidding, this is an awesome example of what we are going to have to show the people claiming fruit is going to ruin your health in the future because it is coming as we can see.

I agree on letting fruit be your medicine! ;D
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 19, 2020, 04:42:07 PM
 Here you go, right off the bat a quick article regarding Princeton University findings on Cellular Regeneration in the brain... Just because you are in denial and can't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't occur

https://www.thoughtco.com/regeneration-of-brain-cells-373181 (https://www.thoughtco.com/regeneration-of-brain-cells-373181)
[/quote]

the paper you quoted said cerebral cortex, not midbrain.  It states "For almost 100 years, it had been a mantra of biology that brain cells or neurons do not regenerate" but that "neurogenesis continuously occurs in specific regions in the adult brain". 

By using the word "specific", the paper authors are implying that in other areas regeneration probably doesn't happen.

if midbrain neurons regenerated, we would have a lot less people with parkinsons....perhaps you believe that parkinsons is a made up big pharma condition too.  or perhaps the neurotoxins have reached your cerebral cortex
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 05:52:05 PM
Here you go, right off the bat a quick article regarding Princeton University findings on Cellular Regeneration in the brain... Just because you are in denial and can't accept it doesn't mean it doesn't occur

https://www.thoughtco.com/regeneration-of-brain-cells-373181 (https://www.thoughtco.com/regeneration-of-brain-cells-373181)

the paper you quoted said cerebral cortex, not midbrain.  It states "For almost 100 years, it had been a mantra of biology that brain cells or neurons do not regenerate" but that "neurogenesis continuously occurs in specific regions in the adult brain". 

By using the word "specific", the paper authors are implying that in other areas regeneration probably doesn't happen.

if midbrain neurons regenerated, we would have a lot less people with parkinsons....perhaps you believe that parkinsons is a made up big pharma condition too.  or perhaps the neurotoxins have reached your cerebral cortex
[/quote]

I love you sharkbait, we all need a good nemesis to keep us honest lol

How did I know you were going to go there? Midbrain neurons vs cerebral cortex neurons... really?

This is the narcissism I'm talking about... what are we trying to lose the "common folk" in this back and forth so they all bow down to Dr. Neuroscience and his theories with his big degree from the major university?

Sure there are differences in cells when you move from say the brain to the bone cells, but is there really that big of a difference in your precious nigrostriatal dopaminergic neuron cells and cerebral cortex neuron cells? So much that regeneration is only possible in one and not the other? I don't buy that theory at all...

How dare you insinuate that I think Parkinsons is fake. But you are right it is a big pharma fabrication as it is just a name on symptoms as are all diseases which happen to be theories as well. But it makes sense since their goal is to treat not cure. That is why they are so scared of the root causes and only address treating symptoms.

If people would focus on the root cause of disease their would be a lot more curing and a lot less treatment...Oh wait, you can't say the word cure because that is owned by the medical community even though that is something they know nothing about.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5745834/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5745834/)

Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: shot on April 19, 2020, 05:57:41 PM
The main gist of the article I posted is a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is very good but may not be for the reasons you think!.And supplements not so much but the good and bad in plants(toxins vs antioxidants).This is new thinking so...
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 19, 2020, 06:42:39 PM
The main gist of the article I posted is a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is very good but may not be for the reasons you think!.And supplements not so much but the good and bad in plants(toxins vs antioxidants).This is new thinking so...

New thinking isn't allowed around these parts apparently, not when it doesn't fit the medical narrative anyways, right sharkbait? Just like how Cherilata is an imaginary fairytale fruit in the land of California ::)
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Pnguyen on April 20, 2020, 12:16:19 AM
I partially grew up in SE Asia but couldnít recalled of any Parkinsonís person in my town.  We do ate lots of annona.  It is also one of my favorite.  In away, all plant, fruits and vegetables has some form of toxicity.However, the trace amount is not large enough dosage to caused harm in a person lifetime.  They could became acute when a person accumulated enough in their systems after 80-100 years of consumption. For example, the Japanese might have more cases of stomach cancer because high consumption of raw seafood.

Unless a person is taking a massive amount in a short period that the body cannot digested.  As an example, a couple year back a radio DJ in SoCal has a contest to see who can drink the most water in a day. Well, a girl won the contest but died soon after because her body cannot dilate. She is very much die because of water poisoning; might I said. Too much a good thing is not good either.

There are also another factor of biological. Annona might have caused the diseases to certain populations because certain biological made up. However, that does not means it will have the same for general populations.  Otherwise, the region that grows annona would have many cases of Parkinsonís.  Contrary, I know a few persons who grew up in the US that never touch an annona with Parkinsonís. Another example, a typical person can only handle a six pack of beers at most. But there are many guys or gals that can handle two packs easily regardless of body weights.

I am more than happy to die from Na Dai because they are very hard to find in SoCal. I rather ate them all day than none. In general, fruits and annona do more good than harm because we generally donít have enough of them in our diets.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 20, 2020, 01:16:52 AM
I partially grew up in SE Asia but couldnít recalled of any Parkinsonís person in my town.  We do ate lots of annona.  It is also one of my favorite.  In away, all plant, fruits and vegetables has some form of toxicity.However, the trace amount is not large enough dosage to caused harm in a person lifetime.  They could became acute when a person accumulated enough in their systems after 80-100 years of consumption. For example, the Japanese might have more cases of stomach cancer because high consumption of raw seafood.

Unless a person is taking a massive amount in a short period that the body cannot digested.  As an example, a couple year back a radio DJ in SoCal has a contest to see who can drink the most water in a day. Well, a girl won the contest but died soon after because her body cannot dilate. She is very much die because of water poisoning; might I said. Too much a good thing is not good either.

There are also another factor of biological. Annona might have caused the diseases to certain populations because certain biological made up. However, that does not means it will have the same for general populations.  Otherwise, the region that grows annona would have many cases of Parkinsonís.  Contrary, I know a few persons who grew up in the US that never touch an annona with Parkinsonís. Another example, a typical person can only handle a six pack of beers at most. But there are many guys or gals that can handle two packs easily regardless of body weights.

I am more than happy to die from Na Dai because they are very hard to find in SoCal. I rather ate them all day than none. In general, fruits and annona do more good than harm because we generally donít have enough of them in our diets.

all excellent points on cumulative dosage, genetic predisposition, toxicity of normal foods (even water) taken in excess quantities.
here's a true story (yes an anecdote, which is weak, but nonetheless): my grandmother followed a very strict almost vegetarian diet, wouldn't let me eat bbq foods as a child (due to 'processed sugars' on the glaze).  my grandfather smoked cigarettes for 40 yrs, drank a quarter handle of liquor every night, and ate whatever he wanted, when he wanted.  I was surprised who outlived the other by about 10 years..  And if I followed my grandmothers advice, I would have missed out on a lot of ribs and brisket..
Like I said, I do intend to keep eating annonas, but in moderation.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: SeaWalnut on April 20, 2020, 06:20:21 AM
People on that island drink tea made from annona leaves.
Its recomended not to drink annona leaves tea every day for long perriods of time.
Fruits are ok but avoid puting them in the blender with the seeds and avoid cooking these fruits.
Cooking makes them toxic from what i recall about pawpaws.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 08:28:22 AM
I partially grew up in SE Asia but couldnít recalled of any Parkinsonís person in my town.  We do ate lots of annona.  It is also one of my favorite.  In away, all plant, fruits and vegetables has some form of toxicity.However, the trace amount is not large enough dosage to caused harm in a person lifetime.  They could became acute when a person accumulated enough in their systems after 80-100 years of consumption. For example, the Japanese might have more cases of stomach cancer because high consumption of raw seafood.

Unless a person is taking a massive amount in a short period that the body cannot digested.  As an example, a couple year back a radio DJ in SoCal has a contest to see who can drink the most water in a day. Well, a girl won the contest but died soon after because her body cannot dilate. She is very much die because of water poisoning; might I said. Too much a good thing is not good either.

There are also another factor of biological. Annona might have caused the diseases to certain populations because certain biological made up. However, that does not means it will have the same for general populations.  Otherwise, the region that grows annona would have many cases of Parkinsonís.  Contrary, I know a few persons who grew up in the US that never touch an annona with Parkinsonís. Another example, a typical person can only handle a six pack of beers at most. But there are many guys or gals that can handle two packs easily regardless of body weights.

I am more than happy to die from Na Dai because they are very hard to find in SoCal. I rather ate them all day than none. In general, fruits and annona do more good than harm because we generally donít have enough of them in our diets.

all excellent points on cumulative dosage, genetic predisposition, toxicity of normal foods (even water) taken in excess quantities.
here's a true story (yes an anecdote, which is weak, but nonetheless): my grandmother followed a very strict almost vegetarian diet, wouldn't let me eat bbq foods as a child (due to 'processed sugars' on the glaze).  my grandfather smoked cigarettes for 40 yrs, drank a quarter handle of liquor every night, and ate whatever he wanted, when he wanted.  I was surprised who outlived the other by about 10 years..  And if I followed my grandmothers advice, I would have missed out on a lot of ribs and brisket..
Like I said, I do intend to keep eating annonas, but in moderation.

As makes sense, it seems that everything is based on genetics...each persons body is different due to genetic factors. From here your cells have a certain "strength" and limits to how much damage they can take before you see symptoms of this damage.

As you would imagine genetically strong people can last many more years drinking, smoking and eating poorly than a genetically weak person.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Giannhs on April 20, 2020, 09:54:57 AM
Hi,
i have watched such talks since one or two years ago, and they have curbed my enthusiasm for Annonaceae, but still i may make some remarks which i have also made at the fb group "pawpaw fanatics":
All those experiments with rats were done by injecting the rats with Annonacins, and not feeding them with Annona fruits. (Please correct me if i m mistaken). I never heard of rats being harmed by eating Annonaceae fruit pulp.
Since the time that America was inhabited by humans, Annona fruits have been consumed, some times heavily, but nobody observed any ailment from consuming Annonas pulp. Indians would have observed it. Surely the seeds and skin are toxic, but nature did not intend us to eat the skin or seeds (or leaves as tea, which probably do cause damage).
This site here https://pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Asimina+triloba mentions nothing of danger in eating the pulp. Also it says that the bark is a bitter tonic.
Some people in this forum and in the fb pawpaw group have experience of eating large quantities of pawpaw and other Annonas (i have never eaten too much of them), and the more they eat Annonas the more happy they are, nobody observed any harm.
I personally know a man who has retired early because of Parkinson, but he doesn't know what an Annona kind of fruit is.
Maybe there is a reason to present the pawpaws and other Annonaceae as dangerous? Pawpaws can grow in very cold areas, and many Annonaceae can grow in temperate areas where winter temperatures do not reach below -5 Celsius. At least in Greece, almost nobody knows of Annonaceae fruit, but those who have tasted love them even more than mangos (which are rarely available tree-ripened, and then too expensive). So, if we suppose that people start growing pawpaws and other Annonaceae in countries which import mangos a.o. tropical fruit, will tropical fruit continue to be imported and sold to high prices? (e.g one airborne medium size mango alone costs about 5 euro, while in tropical countries it costs 5 cents). So maybe they want to minimize the consumption of Annonaceae in order to keep the tropical fruit import business as lucrative as it is now. I don't say that the research on Annonacins is fake news, but it may have been conducted and presented in such a way as to serve certain interests rather than the people's health.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 10:28:12 AM
Hi,
i have watched such talks since one or two years ago, and they have curbed my enthusiasm for Annonaceae, but still i may make some remarks which i have also made at the fb group "pawpaw fanatics":
All those experiments with rats were done by injecting the rats with Annonacins, and not feeding them with Annona fruits. (Please correct me if i m mistaken). I never heard of rats being harmed by eating Annonaceae fruit pulp.
Since the time that America was inhabited by humans, Annona fruits have been consumed, some times heavily, but nobody observed any ailment from consuming Annonas pulp. Indians would have observed it. Surely the seeds and skin are toxic, but nature did not intend us to eat the skin or seeds (or leaves as tea, which probably do cause damage).
This site here https://pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Asimina+triloba mentions nothing of danger in eating the pulp. Also it says that the bark is a bitter tonic.
Some people in this forum and in the fb pawpaw group have experience of eating large quantities of pawpaw and other Annonas (i have never eaten too much of them), and the more they eat Annonas the more happy they are, nobody observed any harm.
I personally know a man who has retired early because of Parkinson, but he doesn't know what an Annona kind of fruit is.
Maybe there is a reason to present the pawpaws and other Annonaceae as dangerous? Pawpaws can grow in very cold areas, and many Annonaceae can grow in temperate areas where winter temperatures do not reach below -5 Celsius. At least in Greece, almost nobody knows of Annonaceae fruit, but those who have tasted love them even more than mangos (which are rarely available tree-ripened, and then too expensive). So, if we suppose that people start growing pawpaws and other Annonaceae in countries which import mangos a.o. tropical fruit, will tropical fruit continue to be imported and sold to high prices? (e.g one airborne medium size mango alone costs about 5 euro, while in tropical countries it costs 5 cents). So maybe they want to minimize the consumption of Annonaceae in order to keep the tropical fruit import business as lucrative as it is now. I don't say that the research on Annonacins is fake news, but it may have been conducted and presented in such a way as to serve certain interests rather than the people's health.


This is exactly the issue I'm having with this study. It seems as if there is an interest in making annonas look bad. Now I'm trying to play nice and not point fingers at who these people may be (Pharma, growers of certain fruits, importer/exporters):cough cough:

Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Tommyng on April 20, 2020, 11:23:50 AM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 02:09:29 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.


Love it! This is exactly what I'm getting at!
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Tommyng on April 20, 2020, 03:06:09 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.


Love it! This is exactly what I'm getting at!

There is a lot of quack research today that poses itself as real peer-reviewed science. Itís hard to be a true scientist when your hands are bound.

In regards to this study, one only needs to look at Parkinsonís rates by country to know that this study has inherent problems. The countries that consumes Annonas regularly have the lowest rates of Parkinsonís. Then you take into account administration is via injection and not ingestion throws a huge red flag. Anyone that argues ingestion is the same as injection should have all their credentials checked.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 20, 2020, 03:06:22 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.

I don't understand some of these claims.  You do realize the majority of research in the US is funded by public tax monies from NIH?  You can literarily read where the study was funded on almost every study on Pubmed.gov ; it will say it right there.  Most research by PhDs at universities are paid a pittance and work to obtain grants from the govt that will fund their research idea.  Independent research is actually quite common; perhaps everyone does have their bias.  The scientific process is designed to eliminate bias as much as possible (especially with randomized controlled trials). 

In reality I am more skeptical of "big herb."  The supplement industry is HUGE these days, and there are a lot of people marketing different things for different reasons.  There is almost minimal regulation for supplements in the US.  You can make almost any claim and idiots will believe you and buy your item.  I could post a false facebook article titled "promising new research shows a special subtype of mulberry may hold natural cure to lupus" and that would get shared a million times and people like Jabbathehutt would buy my supplements. 

In the last 10 years there has been a big movement against science and support for controversial theories: 
-People believe modern vaccinations are generally more harmful than beneficial. 
-People believe pharma is hiding the "cure for HIV"
-Some people believe the holocaust didn't happen. 
-Some people believe the earth is flat. 

What do you say to these people?  I know I will get more out of talking to my dog's butthole. 
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 20, 2020, 03:11:25 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.


Love it! This is exactly what I'm getting at!

There is a lot of quack research today that poses itself as real peer-reviewed science. Itís hard to be a true scientist when your hands are bound.

In regards to this study, one only needs to look at Parkinsonís rates by country to know that this study has inherent problems. The countries that consumes Annonas regularly have the lowest rates of Parkinsonís. Then you take into account administration is via injection and not ingestion throws a huge red flag. Anyone that argues ingestion is the same as injection should have all their credentials checked.

Yea I agree there is a lot of quack research out there.  One of the points of peer review process is to help parse out the BS studies, but many get through.  If you are versed in reading studies though you can read the methods and make a judgement for yourself.  Even the best studies have weaknesses and areas that future studies should build on. 

To be fair it is hard to argue against basic extraction numbers for NMR/mass spec.  That is cold hard data.  Similar numbers were shown in a second study i read this week.  You could always argue they both collaborated to completely fabricate the numbers I guess..

The oral consumption vs IV point is an important distinction.  In my 1st post I mentioned that they fed rats orally and it was then detected in their plasma though (https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0034-1394993 (https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0034-1394993)).  A weakness is they have not shown this in humans to my knowledge.

The parkinsons rate by country is the strongest point, and why I still eat them.  I can't find the study right now but I remember reading one stating that the rates of parkinsons for guadeloupe is pretty similar to other countries. 
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Tommyng on April 20, 2020, 04:21:12 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.

In the past I've been a salaried bench researcher and I don't understand some of these claims.  They are just so against what life is like in the research world.  I guess I missed my big pharma paycheck in the mail.  You do realize the majority of research in the US is funded by public tax monies from NIH?  You can literarily read where the study was funded on almost every study on Pubmed.gov ; it will say it right there.  Most research by PhDs at universities are paid a pittance and work to obtain grants from the govt that will fund their research idea.  Independent research is actually quite common; perhaps everyone does have their bias.  The scientific process is designed to eliminate bias as much as possible (especially with randomized controlled trials). 

In reality I am more skeptical of "big herb."  The supplement industry is HUGE these days, and there are a lot of people marketing different things for different reasons.  There is almost minimal regulation for supplements in the US.  You can make almost any claim and idiots will believe you and buy your item.  I could post a facebook article titled "promising new research shows a special subtype of mulberry may hold natural cure to lupus" and that would get shared a million times and people like Jabbathehutt would buy my supplements. 

In the last 10 years there has been a big movement against science and support for controversial theories: 
-People believe vaccinations are generally more harmful than beneficial. 
-People believe pharma is hiding the "cure for HIV"
-Some people believe the holocaust didn't happen. 
-Some people believe the earth is flat. 

What do you say to these people?  I know I will get more out of talking to my dog's butthole.

I used to be a research scientist and worked for both the nih and cdc during my graduate years. You only need to look at history and even what is going on today to realize how biased some science has been. Remember when tobacco smoke didnít cause lung cancer and doctors were even seen promoting its use. How about glycophospate and asbestos. You canít get any funding for aluminum adjuvant research anymore because it will lead you down dark rabbit hole, itís only funded philanthropically now. Try to get any funding doing research on why more than half of U.S. have a chronic illness without having anyone breathing down your neck.   

In regards to science. It is ever changing. There was a time when you were shamed for your round earth theory. This was an interesting study but I would not base my diet upon it. I just interjected myself in this discussion because the study was flawed and I didnít want it to have someone miss out on eating a good Annona. This is a fruit forum though, letís talk about fruit.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: countryboy1981 on April 20, 2020, 04:25:47 PM
The main gist of the article I posted is a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is very good but may not be for the reasons you think!.And supplements not so much but the good and bad in plants(toxins vs antioxidants).This is new thinking so...

You have to remember that many people in the United States no longer grow their own food.  They are purchasing these fruits and vegetables from the grocery stores and by the time it is purchased have lost most of the vitamins and other nutrients.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 04:38:26 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.


Love it! This is exactly what I'm getting at!

There is a lot of quack research today that poses itself as real peer-reviewed science. Itís hard to be a true scientist when your hands are bound.

In regards to this study, one only needs to look at Parkinsonís rates by country to know that this study has inherent problems. The countries that consumes Annonas regularly have the lowest rates of Parkinsonís. Then you take into account administration is via injection and not ingestion throws a huge red flag. Anyone that argues ingestion is the same as injection should have all their credentials checked.

There is even peer-reviewed science that still has me calling bull$#!+...

I know for instance I went on a rant about the medical community but it is FACTUAL that they TREAT and SUPRESS symptoms only and DO NOT CURE... That is the whole goal and why people get so upset about it is beyond me... Facts are facts.

I've worked in the field for years get the **** over it already... If they were to be more transparent then people wouldn't worship them like gods but would understand they are a business and they only care about the bottom line.

These are the kind of people that constantly piss me off with their "factual" studies when ALL their FACTS are THEORIES with major flaws!!! Sorry, don't care about your degree from Big Whoop University, that doesn't present facts as they should be. I had coworkers and friends who were Harvard Doctors and you wouldn't believe the stories they would tell me.

I keep using allopathy as my main example because that is what I am most familiar with and they are the biggest offenders...

Back to this study... It is a huge red flag about the IV introduction instead of eaten. Sorry, but you can't claim anything after that other than injecting this compound into rats possibly had such an effect. It is no longer  pertinent to ingested versions of whatever you are testing. Apples and oranges...

Like I said before in another post, ingesting Vitamin C from fruit is great but IVing Ascorbic Acid to me is asinine.Two completely different effects on the body.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 20, 2020, 05:21:12 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.


Love it! This is exactly what I'm getting at!

There is a lot of quack research today that poses itself as real peer-reviewed science. Itís hard to be a true scientist when your hands are bound.

In regards to this study, one only needs to look at Parkinsonís rates by country to know that this study has inherent problems. The countries that consumes Annonas regularly have the lowest rates of Parkinsonís. Then you take into account administration is via injection and not ingestion throws a huge red flag. Anyone that argues ingestion is the same as injection should have all their credentials checked.

There is even peer-reviewed science that still has me calling bull$#!+...

I know for instance I went on a rant about the medical community but it is FACTUAL that they TREAT and SUPRESS symptoms only and DO NOT CURE... That is the whole goal and why people get so upset about it is beyond me... Facts are facts.

I've worked in the field for years get the **** over it already... If they were to be more transparent then people wouldn't worship them like gods but would understand they are a business and they only care about the bottom line.

These are the kind of people that constantly piss me off with their "factual" studies when ALL their FACTS are THEORIES with major flaws!!! Sorry, don't care about your degree from Big Whoop University, that doesn't present facts as they should be. I had coworkers and friends who were Harvard Doctors and you wouldn't believe the stories they would tell me.

I keep using allopathy as my main example because that is what I am most familiar with and they are the biggest offenders...

Back to this study... It is a huge red flag about the IV introduction instead of eaten. Sorry, but you can't claim anything after that other than injecting this compound into rats possibly had such an effect. It is no longer  pertinent to ingested versions of whatever you are testing. Apples and oranges...

Like I said before in another post, ingesting Vitamin C from fruit is great but IVing Ascorbic Acid to me is asinine.Two completely different effects on the body.

Whatever is said, you just keep coming back to attacking healthcare workers.  Many of them having given up more than you'll ever know (or personally done) for the betterment of humanity and their communities.. sure hope you never need one one day. 

On that note I'm out.  My bottomline point is that there is limited preliminary data showing why it might be a good idea to moderate intake.  I don't think the final word is out, and many in this thread have given good points on weaknesses of the existing data.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 06:44:10 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.


Love it! This is exactly what I'm getting at!

There is a lot of quack research today that poses itself as real peer-reviewed science. Itís hard to be a true scientist when your hands are bound.

In regards to this study, one only needs to look at Parkinsonís rates by country to know that this study has inherent problems. The countries that consumes Annonas regularly have the lowest rates of Parkinsonís. Then you take into account administration is via injection and not ingestion throws a huge red flag. Anyone that argues ingestion is the same as injection should have all their credentials checked.

There is even peer-reviewed science that still has me calling bull$#!+...

I know for instance I went on a rant about the medical community but it is FACTUAL that they TREAT and SUPRESS symptoms only and DO NOT CURE... That is the whole goal and why people get so upset about it is beyond me... Facts are facts.

I've worked in the field for years get the **** over it already... If they were to be more transparent then people wouldn't worship them like gods but would understand they are a business and they only care about the bottom line.

These are the kind of people that constantly piss me off with their "factual" studies when ALL their FACTS are THEORIES with major flaws!!! Sorry, don't care about your degree from Big Whoop University, that doesn't present facts as they should be. I had coworkers and friends who were Harvard Doctors and you wouldn't believe the stories they would tell me.

I keep using allopathy as my main example because that is what I am most familiar with and they are the biggest offenders...

Back to this study... It is a huge red flag about the IV introduction instead of eaten. Sorry, but you can't claim anything after that other than injecting this compound into rats possibly had such an effect. It is no longer  pertinent to ingested versions of whatever you are testing. Apples and oranges...

Like I said before in another post, ingesting Vitamin C from fruit is great but IVing Ascorbic Acid to me is asinine.Two completely different effects on the body.

Whatever is said, you just keep coming back to attacking healthcare workers.  Many of them having given up more than you'll ever know (or personally done) for the betterment of humanity and their communities.. sure hope you never need one one day. 

On that note I'm out.  My bottomline point is that there is limited preliminary data showing why it might be a good idea to moderate intake.  I don't think the final word is out, and many in this thread have given good points on weaknesses of the existing data.

You can get off your high horse, I don't need the lecture as I am a healthcare worker who realizes the flaws in their own modality...  I say something because I DO CARE...There are many of us who want to help but our hands are bound! When you stumble into pile after pile of bull$#!+ you have to make the choice to blow the whistle or not to, but apparently all those that keep a facade going are the real heroes!!! ::)

I'm sorry that people saw through this joke of a study, you act like it is your life work or something... I am still grateful you presented it as it gave us something to debate about.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: roblack on April 20, 2020, 07:24:23 PM
this has become a bit ridiculous

anything people do has bias within

its funny, "science sux" while we continue to rely on it

lots of good scientists and studies out there. some bad eggs do not represent the masses. 

back to annonas...
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: SeaWalnut on April 20, 2020, 07:41:41 PM
Scientist cant fully understand all those complicated organic chemistry reactions.They are just speculations.
And beware of the chemist who says ,,i know how all this works,im the biggest boss of this reaction,,.
Last time i had a debate with a big pharma chemist( american) i demolished all his theoryes ,disguised as a plumber to the point that even his verry old chemistry teacher fell for my trolling techniques .
If a psycho kills rats with annonacin injections ,that doesnt mean nothing except dont inject it to yourself.
Ive kept the second most powerfull toxin in the world in my bedroom ,live corals with palytoxin ,without any issues.
Test if your allergic before you eat the fruits ( especially if your known allergic) and eat responsibly because as somewhone pointed earlyer,too much of a good thing its bad.
Title: rats fed with Annona species
Post by: Giannhs on April 20, 2020, 08:22:45 PM
In some experiments, rats have been fed with Annona sp. fruit, o.k., but i know that rats easily devour the seeds too. A mouse at home ate some persimmon seeds i was keeping for planting, while it did not eat the rat poison set for it. Seems they like to gnaw hard seeds, rodents they are. Still we don't know if rats were harmed by eating Annona sp. pulp.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Bush2Beach on April 20, 2020, 09:06:56 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJtzEKetBM
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 09:19:29 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.

I don't understand some of these claims.  You do realize the majority of research in the US is funded by public tax monies from NIH?  You can literarily read where the study was funded on almost every study on Pubmed.gov ; it will say it right there.  Most research by PhDs at universities are paid a pittance and work to obtain grants from the govt that will fund their research idea.  Independent research is actually quite common; perhaps everyone does have their bias.  The scientific process is designed to eliminate bias as much as possible (especially with randomized controlled trials). 

In reality I am more skeptical of "big herb."  The supplement industry is HUGE these days, and there are a lot of people marketing different things for different reasons.  There is almost minimal regulation for supplements in the US.  You can make almost any claim and idiots will believe you and buy your item.  I could post a facebook article titled "promising new research shows a special subtype of mulberry may hold natural cure to lupus" and that would get shared a million times and people like Jabbathehutt would buy my supplements. 

In the last 10 years there has been a big movement against science and support for controversial theories: 
-People believe modern vaccinations are generally more harmful than beneficial. 
-People believe pharma is hiding the "cure for HIV"
-Some people believe the holocaust didn't happen. 
-Some people believe the earth is flat. 

What do you say to these people?  I know I will get more out of talking to my dog's butthole.

I missed this beauty of a reply by you somehow...

University research is the most trustworthy and unbiased I have seen.

You are right about supplements people are abusing the minimal regulations making outrageous claims. But what I find amusing and I think you should know better is that you absolutely CANNOT make a claim that it would cure Lupus... That is absolutely absurd, the FDA would be up your ass so fast you wouldn't know what hit you!

I don't buy supplements or into other people's bull$#!+. As you can see I am not gullible, I don't just accept every word Dr. Neuroscience spouts just because he says I should or else I disrespect his almighty University Degree. ::) 

I hate orthomolecular supplementation, I rather get my vitamins and minerals via natural methods(fruits,veggies,biosynthesis). I guess this makes me what? A conspiracy theorist?
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 09:23:40 PM
The main gist of the article I posted is a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is very good but may not be for the reasons you think!.And supplements not so much but the good and bad in plants(toxins vs antioxidants).This is new thinking so...

You have to remember that many people in the United States no longer grow their own food.  They are purchasing these fruits and vegetables from the grocery stores and by the time it is purchased have lost most of the vitamins and other nutrients.

If it ever even has a full gamut of vitamins and minerals to begin with, not many people take the time to care for their soil, especially Big Agriculture! Then the ripeness is never there as it is always picked wayyyy too early. It's just a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 09:32:16 PM
Scientist cant fully understand all those complicated organic chemistry reactions.They are just speculations.
And beware of the chemist who says ,,i know how all this works,im the biggest boss of this reaction,
,.
Last time i had a debate with a big pharma chemist( american) i demolished all his theoryes ,disguised as a plumber to the point that even his verry old chemistry teacher fell for my trolling techniques .
If a psycho kills rats with annonacin injections ,that doesnt mean nothing except dont inject it to yourself.
Ive kept the second most powerfull toxin in the world in my bedroom ,live corals with palytoxin ,without any issues.
Test if your allergic before you eat the fruits ( especially if your known allergic) and eat responsibly because as somewhone pointed earlyer,too much of a good thing its bad.

Well said Walnut... However the narcissism gets ahold of these people and they suddenly aren't speculating or theorizing, they are giving you facts. My point was there is too much narcissism and bias in most eveything people are touching and it needs to stop.

Also that is not possible to demolish the theories of a Pharm Chemist as they are God and everything they say is pure facts straight from the mouth of God ::)
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 09:35:05 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJtzEKetBM

 ;D
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Garden_Harley_FL on April 20, 2020, 09:43:00 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.

I don't understand some of these claims.  You do realize the majority of research in the US is funded by public tax monies from NIH?  You can literarily read where the study was funded on almost every study on Pubmed.gov ; it will say it right there.  Most research by PhDs at universities are paid a pittance and work to obtain grants from the govt that will fund their research idea.  Independent research is actually quite common; perhaps everyone does have their bias.  The scientific process is designed to eliminate bias as much as possible (especially with randomized controlled trials). 

In reality I am more skeptical of "big herb."  The supplement industry is HUGE these days, and there are a lot of people marketing different things for different reasons.  There is almost minimal regulation for supplements in the US.  You can make almost any claim and idiots will believe you and buy your item.  I could post a facebook article titled "promising new research shows a special subtype of mulberry may hold natural cure to lupus" and that would get shared a million times and people like Jabbathehutt would buy my supplements. 

In the last 10 years there has been a big movement against science and support for controversial theories: 
-People believe modern vaccinations are generally more harmful than beneficial. 
-People believe pharma is hiding the "cure for HIV"
-Some people believe the holocaust didn't happen. 
-Some people believe the earth is flat. 

What do you say to these people?  I know I will get more out of talking to my dog's butthole.

I missed this beauty of a reply by you somehow...

University research is the most trustworthy and unbiased I have seen.

You are right about supplements people are abusing the minimal regulations making outrageous claims. But what I find amusing and I think you should know better is that you absolutely CANNOT make a claim that it would cure Lupus... That is absolutely absurd, the FDA would be up your ass so fast you wouldn't know what hit you!

I don't buy supplements or into other people's bull$#!+. As you can see I am not gullible, I don't just accept every word Dr. Neuroscience spouts just because he says I should or else I disrespect his almighty University Degree. ::) 

I hate orthomolecular supplementation, I rather get my vitamins and minerals via natural methods(fruits,veggies,biosynthesis). I guess this makes me what? A conspiracy theorist?

Lol I guess we would be considered conspiracy theorists.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 11:06:34 PM
this has become a bit ridiculous

anything people do has bias within

its funny, "science sux" while we continue to rely on it

lots of good scientists and studies out there. some bad eggs do not represent the masses. 

back to annonas...

Science is amazing, it's the narcissistic scientists that suck! To be a scientist you should be adhering to the pursuit of truth, unfortunately there are lots of bad apples that get their funk all over chemistry and physics and they continue to spread their taint relentlessly. ;)
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Pnguyen on April 20, 2020, 11:11:08 PM
The main gist of the article I posted is a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is very good but may not be for the reasons you think!.And supplements not so much but the good and bad in plants(toxins vs antioxidants).This is new thinking so...

You have to remember that many people in the United States no longer grow their own food.  They are purchasing these fruits and vegetables from the grocery stores and by the time it is purchased have lost most of the vitamins and other nutrients.

Agree...Not only the lost of nutrient. We donít even know what stuff they have on the food that we purchased.  I was trying to grow some fingerling potatoes and cannot buy potatoes seedling.  Therefore, I went to the supermarket to get a bag of mix fingerlings. I placed them in a jar half filled with water to facilitate the sprouting. After a full week, no sprout on any of the potatoes. I went on YouTube and many said they spray the supermarkets potatoes with anti sprouting chemical for longer shelf life. The potatoes from supermarket might grow but could take a very long time.  I then went to Whole Food Market for another bag of certified organic mix fingerlings.  The new new batch sprouts after three days after half submerged in water while other still did not do anything after 1.5 week.

Just imagine...the food that we purchased not only not at the optimum nutrition values but also full on unknowns chemicals.  It is best to grown our fruits. With 99.99% certainty, the stuff from supermarket will get us long before any natural toxin from our own fruits can get us.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 11:12:14 PM
You only need to know who funds any scientific or medical study to discern what motives they have to reach their conclusions. True independent and unbiased research is extremely rare these days.

I don't understand some of these claims.  You do realize the majority of research in the US is funded by public tax monies from NIH?  You can literarily read where the study was funded on almost every study on Pubmed.gov ; it will say it right there.  Most research by PhDs at universities are paid a pittance and work to obtain grants from the govt that will fund their research idea.  Independent research is actually quite common; perhaps everyone does have their bias.  The scientific process is designed to eliminate bias as much as possible (especially with randomized controlled trials). 

In reality I am more skeptical of "big herb."  The supplement industry is HUGE these days, and there are a lot of people marketing different things for different reasons.  There is almost minimal regulation for supplements in the US.  You can make almost any claim and idiots will believe you and buy your item.  I could post a facebook article titled "promising new research shows a special subtype of mulberry may hold natural cure to lupus" and that would get shared a million times and people like Jabbathehutt would buy my supplements. 

In the last 10 years there has been a big movement against science and support for controversial theories: 
-People believe modern vaccinations are generally more harmful than beneficial. 
-People believe pharma is hiding the "cure for HIV"
-Some people believe the holocaust didn't happen. 
-Some people believe the earth is flat. 

What do you say to these people?  I know I will get more out of talking to my dog's butthole.

I missed this beauty of a reply by you somehow...

University research is the most trustworthy and unbiased I have seen.

You are right about supplements people are abusing the minimal regulations making outrageous claims. But what I find amusing and I think you should know better is that you absolutely CANNOT make a claim that it would cure Lupus... That is absolutely absurd, the FDA would be up your ass so fast you wouldn't know what hit you!

I don't buy supplements or into other people's bull$#!+. As you can see I am not gullible, I don't just accept every word Dr. Neuroscience spouts just because he says I should or else I disrespect his almighty University Degree. ::) 

I hate orthomolecular supplementation, I rather get my vitamins and minerals via natural methods(fruits,veggies,biosynthesis). I guess this makes me what? A conspiracy theorist?

Lol I guess we would be considered conspiracy theorists.

I just purchased a mile long roll of aluminum foil should we proceed to have a hat making party?? :P
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 20, 2020, 11:21:50 PM
The main gist of the article I posted is a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is very good but may not be for the reasons you think!.And supplements not so much but the good and bad in plants(toxins vs antioxidants).This is new thinking so...

You have to remember that many people in the United States no longer grow their own food.  They are purchasing these fruits and vegetables from the grocery stores and by the time it is purchased have lost most of the vitamins and other nutrients.

Agree...Not only the lost of nutrient. We donít even know what stuff they have on the food that we purchased.  I was trying to grow some fingerling potatoes and cannot buy potatoes seedling.  Therefore, I went to the supermarket to get a bag of mix fingerlings. I placed them in a jar half filled with water to facilitate the sprouting. After a full week, no sprout on any of the potatoes. I went on YouTube and many said they spray the supermarkets potatoes with anti sprouting chemical for longer shelf life. The potatoes from supermarket might grow but could take a very long time.  I then went to Whole Food Market for another bag of certified organic mix fingerlings.  The new new batch sprouts after three days after half submerged in water while other still did not do anything after 1.5 week.

Just imagine...the food that we purchased not only not at the optimum nutrition values but also full on unknowns chemicals.  It is best to grown our fruits. With 99.99% certainty, the stuff from supermarket will get us long before any natural toxin from our own fruits can get us.

Boom, this is correct! 8)

But the studies say all these "harmful" neurotoxins are completely safe and good for you, Dr's don't see a correlation, Bayer thinks you should drink a gallon of roundup a day to keep you from having a heart attack or stroke even though it will eat your stomach lining out...

I mean all these chemicals just sound so wonderful maybe we should start taking IV drips of them!

Sorry, I'm being facetious... Grow your own food when you can and if you can't then find somebody you can actually trust!!
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 21, 2020, 10:43:32 AM
this has become a bit ridiculous

anything people do has bias within

its funny, "science sux" while we continue to rely on it

lots of good scientists and studies out there. some bad eggs do not represent the masses. 

back to annonas...

Science is amazing, it's the narcissistic scientists that suck! To be a scientist you should be adhering to the pursuit of truth, unfortunately there are lots of bad apples that get their funk all over chemistry and physics and they continue to spread their taint relentlessly. ;)

Funny who you should call narcissistic.  May want to take a look in the mirror. 
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 21, 2020, 11:39:08 AM
this has become a bit ridiculous

anything people do has bias within

its funny, "science sux" while we continue to rely on it

lots of good scientists and studies out there. some bad eggs do not represent the masses. 

back to annonas...

Science is amazing, it's the narcissistic scientists that suck! To be a scientist you should be adhering to the pursuit of truth, unfortunately there are lots of bad apples that get their funk all over chemistry and physics and they continue to spread their taint relentlessly. ;)

Funny who you should call narcissistic.  May want to take a look in the mirror.

LOL! I have never had anybody call me narcissistic, that's one thing I most certainly am not. I am a very humble, empathetic person. I don't go around flaunting degrees and accolades, if somebody knows something then they know something regardless of education... I would never disparage another person, I will listen to anybodies opinion on anything.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 21, 2020, 01:19:42 PM

LOL! I have never had anybody call me narcissistic, that's one thing I most certainly am not. I am a very humble, empathetic person. I don't go around flaunting degrees and accolades, if somebody knows something then they know something regardless of education... I would never disparage another person, I will listen to anybodies opinion on anything.

you are delusional.  for a significant part of this thread you didn't even want to engage evidence before you, and are narcissistic in presenting what you are saying as facts without anything to back it up.  I just presented evidence, and encourage people to read the data and make a judgement for themselves.  I never presented things as "I have a degree and these are the facts of life" like you are stating (other than stating that nigrostriatal neurons probably don't regenerate, which is widely known and refuted by almost no one except you).  That is classically characterized as an ad hominem attack, and a weak style of argument.  You became irrationally angry at this and posted a source, which your own source contradicted the point you were making

For instance, you stated "doctors never cure they just treat."  Yea hmm what about appendicitis?  What about resection of a localized cancer that has not spread (such as a nose basal carcinoma).  What about a cardiac rhabdomyoma causing vascular compromise.  You speak as an authority about things you don't anything about, and you are part of the modern problem involving the active spread of disinformation.  It is fair to point out weakness of arguments or weaknesses of existing data (which I have not been shy about discussing), it is not fair to say "fake news" because you strongly believe your opinion.  That makes you narcissistic.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: sharkbait on April 21, 2020, 01:27:38 PM
.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 21, 2020, 01:50:48 PM

LOL! I have never had anybody call me narcissistic, that's one thing I most certainly am not. I am a very humble, empathetic person. I don't go around flaunting degrees and accolades, if somebody knows something then they know something regardless of education... I would never disparage another person, I will listen to anybodies opinion on anything.

you are delusional.  for a significant part of this thread you didn't even want to engage evidence before you, and are narcissistic in presenting what you are saying as facts without anything to back it up.  I just presented evidence, and encourage people to read the data and make a judgement for themselves.  I never presented things as "I have a degree and these are the facts of life" like you are stating (other than stating that nigrostrial neurons probably don't regenerate, which is widely known and refuted by almost no one except you).  That is classically characterized as an ad hominem attack, and a weak style of argument.  You became irrationally angry at this and posted a source, which your own source contradicted the point you were making

For instance, you stated "doctors have never cured anything they just treat."  Yea hmm what about appendicitis?  What about localized cancers that have not spread (such as a nose basal cell).  What about a cardiac rhabdomyoma.  You speak as an authority about things you don't anything about, and you are part of the modern problem involving the active spread of disinformation.  It is fair to point out weakness of arguments or weaknesses of existing data (which I have not been shy about discussing), it is not fair to say "fake news" because you strongly believe your opinion.  That makes you narcissistic.

I'm delusional? Shark, I'll engage evidence all day, I'm not hiding anything. I invite all theories but that is what you are standing on just as much as I am... Just because a medical doctor or neuroscientist state something does NOT make it a fact!

I'm sorry you feel attacked, I'm just having a friendly back and forth with you, I didn't know you'd get all butthurt over it and claim ad hominem... I can take it all day but don't expect to dish it out without receiving something back.

You're clearly mad because everybody sees through this weak study that you were all excited to present like it was your life's work! Was this your baby or something?!

I'm not saying what I say is fact but it is my opinion and I can get doctors who will agree with me even though they are hard to find because it is against the grain of allopathic theories.

OK, why are doctors so afraid of the word cure? Because it isn't in their vocabulary except when it comes to garnishing donations...

Especially when it comes to cancer they don't cure, they treat and say you are in remission and won't dare say the word cure... So don't make up bullcrap for the medical community which clearly YOU know nothing about just based on these claims you make of them "curing"
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Bush2Beach on April 21, 2020, 02:25:06 PM
Time to go out in the garden and do some work anyhow.
Backburner this not to let it simmer and stew but rehash it later on if need be.
This annona / parkinsons reasoning usually ends up at this point as its been discussed throughout the years. Itís not going anywhere or affecting anyoneís opinion one way or the other.
Plant a seed that will grow instead.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: knlim000 on April 21, 2020, 02:47:24 PM
in moderation?  too much of anything is not good.
sugar or salt is ok, but too much is detrimental .  My cousin's teen  son was forced to eat a bowl of  salt+chili without anything, and died from it afterward.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 21, 2020, 04:52:02 PM
Time to go out in the garden and do some work anyhow.
Backburner this not to let it simmer and stew but rehash it later on if need be.
This annona / parkinsons reasoning usually ends up at this point as its been discussed throughout the years. Itís not going anywhere or affecting anyoneís opinion one way or the other.
Plant a seed that will grow instead.

Absolutely! No hard feelings Sharky.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 21, 2020, 05:04:47 PM
in moderation?  too much of anything is not good.
sugar or salt is ok, but too much is detrimental .  My cousin's teen  son was forced to eat a bowl of  salt+chili without anything, and died from it afterward.

A bowl of salt and chili? Like iodized salt and hot pepper or salt and chili made from tomato?

Too much salt will give you a great example of how damaging excess will be to your body especially kidneys and adrenal glands. Our bodies are constantly looking to remain in homeostasis like anything that has to do with chemistry! Too much or too little of anything can be detrimental.

Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Tommyng on April 21, 2020, 06:40:12 PM
this has become a bit ridiculous

anything people do has bias within

its funny, "science sux" while we continue to rely on it

lots of good scientists and studies out there. some bad eggs do not represent the masses. 

back to annonas...

Science is amazing, it's the narcissistic scientists that suck! To be a scientist you should be adhering to the pursuit of truth, unfortunately there are lots of bad apples that get their funk all over chemistry and physics and they continue to spread their taint relentlessly. ;)

You have no idea the taint thatís been embedded in medical research. You should look at the placebos they are using for covid vaccines. You would think a double blind study would use saline as itís control.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 21, 2020, 08:47:04 PM
this has become a bit ridiculous

anything people do has bias within

its funny, "science sux" while we continue to rely on it

lots of good scientists and studies out there. some bad eggs do not represent the masses. 

back to annonas...

Science is amazing, it's the narcissistic scientists that suck! To be a scientist you should be adhering to the pursuit of truth, unfortunately there are lots of bad apples that get their funk all over chemistry and physics and they continue to spread their taint relentlessly. ;)

You have no idea the taint thatís been embedded in medical research. You should look at the placebos they are using for covid vaccines. You would think a double blind study would use saline as itís control.

My point exactly... the taint on medical research is the worst kind. They will do anything to get a drug through or vaccine to TREAT not cure remind you... That's what is scary about the covid vaccine is they are trying to push it through without regulation. Not that it matters because the FDA will approve some pretty grusome stuff!
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Bush2Beach on April 21, 2020, 09:00:12 PM
Taint no thing theyíll tell you, you just gotta renew those prescriptions, FOR LIFE. It will keep you ďwellĒ.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: SeaWalnut on April 21, 2020, 09:30:41 PM
We will all get the vaccine against coronavirus by force and for free.
Its plants pollen thats natural vaccine against colds such as coronaviruses,thats why they dissapear in the summer ,not because of the Sun UV or the heat.I even tested this on me and a doctor will never have this view of things because its not doctors job to study the enviroment .
Only an enviromentalist like me can have such a perspective of things .

Pollen its considered a bad alergen by doctors and ive seen countryes eroneously felling poplar trees to have less pollen in the air while on coronavirus pandemic.
They think low pollen helps and spares people from the trouble of otther respiratory problems but its the opposite.
Same applyes for annonacin,its healty to eat annonacin from fruits .
Its also bad but at same time healty.
Studyes also showed that annonacin stops somme cancer types and as we all have various types of mild cancers that heal by themselves throughout our life , a little annonacin its welcome in our diet.

Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 21, 2020, 11:22:01 PM
Taint no thing theyíll tell you, you just gotta renew those prescriptions, FOR LIFE. It will keep you ďwellĒ.

 ;D

75 prescriptions later and your kidneys shut down, and all your endocrine glands stop doing their jobs... must just be your time to go, and it could never be related to the prescriptions either.
Title: Re: Annona sp & link to parkinsons
Post by: Jabba The Hutt on April 21, 2020, 11:32:13 PM
We will all get the vaccine against coronavirus by force and for free.
Its plants pollen thats natural vaccine against colds such as coronaviruses,thats why they dissapear in the summer ,not because of the Sun UV or the heat.I even tested this on me and a doctor will never have this view of things because its not doctors job to study the enviroment .
Only an enviromentalist like me can have such a perspective of things .

Pollen its considered a bad alergen by doctors and ive seen countryes eroneously felling poplar trees to have less pollen in the air while on coronavirus pandemic.
They think low pollen helps and spares people from the trouble of otther respiratory problems but its the opposite.
Same applyes for annonacin,its healty to eat annonacin from fruits .
Its also bad but at same time healty.
Studyes also showed that annonacin stops somme cancer types and as we all have various types of mild cancers that heal by themselves throughout our life , a little annonacin its welcome in our diet.

But but but, the only way to beat cancer is chemotherapy or removing it...the doctors say so.

Funny that they don't seem to understand the lymphatic system.and it's role in removing damaged cells, it's like it doesn't exist to these people or something ::)
 In fact if this system worked correctly we wouldn't see damaged cells remaining and continuing degeneration into what is known as cancer. Think about what that means.... ;)