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Messages - JoeReal

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1
Another scientific finding that shows why Broccoli is good for you! It awakens a potent system in your body that suppresses tumors! And the mechanism of these natural compounds can have other applications in the general fight against cancers. I'd grow more organic broccolis!

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190516142913.htm

2
I can understand why many people are skeptical of epigenetics, but last year alone, there are more than 2,500 refereed scientific articles alone that dealt with it. Some of my friends with graduate or medical degrees have specialized on it and produced irrefutable results and even commercial products. So for me, it can't be dismissed. I even witnessed several instances of cold hardy avocados resulting from environmental stresses, right in my backyard and other people, and that's why I was able to grow and fruit avocados in our area.  Recently I evaluated a tree of my friend, and have found a potentially Cold Hardy Hass Avocado, which resulted from the arctic blast event about a decade ago and the tree is producing Hass type avocados and was never damaged by any frosts for the past 4 years or so, and has increasing yield each year. I have added it into my collection. I have discussed the details in other forums and I can link it here.

Here's the perception about epigenetics: 
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature05913

And there are about 318,000 hits in Google Scholar for epigenetics.

And in the National Institute of Health Biomedical Databases, there are about 29,692 recent articles that talked about epigenetics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=epigenetics



3
> the grafting combo can alter the grafted plants epigenetically and the result can be inheritable for self-pollinated plants or having true-to-type progenies

Epigenetics Is pseudoscience and was not proven. It hangs on the reality that there are external methods for modifying DNA like virus and plasmids, but this is a really small, non functional and normally negligible part. Most accidental mutations and modifications are non heritable  and discarded at gametes level.

If rootstocks would put any trace of DNA on the grafted plants, all new orange cultivars would be hybrids of Citrange at this moment, all new pears would be quince pear hybrids, and all roses would be of pink color. This is obviously not happening.

The evidences aren't very strong for the case of most grafts, especially in the Solanaceous family, but the biomarkers for the resulting progenies and subsequent scionwood means that they can't be dismissed easily either.

4
Epigenetics its a controversial domain but you know much better than me about grafts and im willing to learn about the issue.Im also interested in genetics of the plants regarding cold hardiness but im following another route by studying plant fossils to havr an idea about the newer species.For example in europe we used to have Dalbergia rosewoods species that now are extinct and i think somme of the extant species today might still have somme of those genes.
The most interesting thing about genetics wich is a mistery ,its why the flora and fauna in China are soo much related to the east American ones.

Wow, very nice!

5
I dont think its possible.Lets say if a plant breeds sexually then it would have the ADN of the father from pollen available to travel and make changes to the mother .In animals and even in humans its well documented that somme ADN of the father passes from the fetus to the mother spine marrow.But animals are a lot more complex than plants.

My friend, read up on epigenetics. Itís how we got some of our avocados to become cold hardy and the  trait became inheritable, not only from the subsequent scionwood but also the seeds when some genes were triggered to be expressed from external factors.

6
A little off topic, but do you know of Glycosmis is compatible with any citrus? Either as rootstock or scion.

No experience yet with those.

7
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: May 16, 2019, 05:29:36 PM »
Amazing! Congratulations.
I have a hard time just trying to graft mango to mango :( What's your secret???

The secret is that there's no secret!

It may have a lot to do with the timing. Different species have different best times to graft depending where your plant is. I can talk based on my experience in our area.


8
I do a lot of interspecific grafting (32 species of prunus grafted together), sometimes inter-genera grafting (Eriobotrya, Cydonia, Malus,Pyrus, Crataeugus, Aronia... or Microcitrus, Eremocitrus, Citrus, Fortunella...). I just encountered a scientific paper showing that the grafting combo can alter the grafted plants epigenetically and the result can be inheritable for self-pollinated plants or having true-to-type progenies. I'll have to review this paper again when I have the time. I just skimmed through it. My 160-n-1 tree may have inheritable changes that can be passed on already, either the subsequent scionwood or of course, the seeds from these are dramatically random hybrids.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0061995

9
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Bark inversion tutorial
« on: May 16, 2019, 12:51:26 PM »
I just tried it on a tree with fresh new growth but the bark band started breaking into pieces as I was removing it so I stopped 1/3 of the way through and put the pieces back.  I feel like the bark on my trees is never slipping enough to graft.

It would still have an effect, although mild. The scoring and the 1/3 removal and putting back would be equal to mild girdling technique.

10
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Oranges And Its Sugar Content
« on: May 16, 2019, 12:49:08 PM »
Fruit is healthy, but too much fruit, especially fruit juice since there's no fiber to slow down the absorption of sugar, is not.
Also fructose is notorious for not being as healthy for you metabolically as glucose (lots of fructose will make you tired and drained of energy, and much more likely to turn directly into stored fat).

Health is all about proper balance of the different food groups.

A small glass of orange juice every day is great and will add to your life. (Assuming you don't already have too much sugar from other things)

Here's an article about sugars in the fruits. I don't drink fruit juices and would rather eat, bite and chew the fruits. I'm never a fan of juicing fruits and veggies for these very reasons:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/the-sugar-in-fruit-doesnt-make-it-bad-for-you-despite-some-trendy-diet-claims/2019/04/15/5ad3ef84-5b12-11e9-a00e-050dc7b82693_story.html?fbclid=IwAR3JdGHqpwdxql-6ksKTOJ8aB85GYJa6lZuuTQ_ehad0GPNnDwfbnAX8Xy8&utm_term=.04e7695615f2

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-fruit-good-or-bad-for-your-health

11
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: May 15, 2019, 04:08:05 PM »
We should call you JoeUnreal, that tree is unreal sir!  You going for a world record?  Do you have name tags on each graft?

Most branches that I am not familiar with or are new have name tags. But for the cultivars that I know from sight of leaves or fruits, I removed the tags.

12
Popularity of the Grapefruit has to do with the marketing...

I try to keep mine as long on the tree and will only eat if they drop.  Most of my grapefruits and pomelos are good keepers on the tree. I love the Valentine Pomelo the best. They're ready on Valentines Day and then start to sweeten up until they fall off.

Probably the sweetest grapefruit that I have was a backyard hybrid developed by Ed Valdivia, it's called Big Ed. I got a scionwood from him a long time ago before we had the quarantine.  It is a hybrid between a grapefruit and an orange, similar to cocktail. But this one, after you harvest it, let it sit in the countertop a long time until it shrivels. Then you peel it off like a Satsuma and eat it like a pomelo, it is supersweet with thin rind.

13
Tastier tomatoes are now on the menu of Plant Breeders and BioEngineers!

At least they're going into the tastier direction now that the genes have been identified, it should speed up the process of making tomatoes more flavorful.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/tastier-tomatoes-may-be-making-comeback-180972175/


14
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: May 15, 2019, 01:54:20 PM »
Great work Joe. I am like you often gardening and grafting at night. Good luck achieving your 175 varieties. Such amazing variety. Only 15 more to go!

There are only 150 cultivars of stone fruits available from the exchange, and the additional ones were really hard work to get from various hobbyists. And it might become 200 next year if I am able to raid the UC Germplasm!

15
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Cold hardy cherimoya or atemoya
« on: May 15, 2019, 12:16:11 PM »
What's the cold hardiest cultivar of Cherimoya or Atemoya? Anyone willing to share their experience or a ranking of the cold hardiness of existing cultivars? Thanks!

16
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: May 15, 2019, 11:17:25 AM »
just copied and pasted from Facebook:
The 160-n-1 Multi-Grafted Stone Fruit Tree.
Ornamental purple plum tree turned into multi-grafted fruit tree. You can see different colors, shapes, and sizes. I tried to avoid structuring my tree the same way as commercial orchards do. So I added cultivars along how the tree branches out naturally. I will shape it very much later when I want to cull out the cultivars that I don't like. I donít want to end up with big trees that bear fruits at the same time. Iím a backyard grower with limited planting space. I have an entirely different growing objectives than conventional farmers. And so my trees arenít the same as those you would expect in most farmer's fields and peopleís yards where they use the same techniques as those in the orchards. It is always good to push the limits and envelopes of fruit growing especially if you don't do it for commercial purposes. I use basic scientific knowledge where to place my grafts and how to make them compatible and bear fruits. It's more of a scientific artwork.

So far it has 160 different cultivars of these Prunus species and their hybrids:
    P. americana (American plum)
    P. angustifolia (Chickasaw plum)
    P. armeniaca (Apricot)
    P. armeniaca x salicina x armeniaca (Aprium)
    P. avium (Sweet Cherry)
    P. avium x salicina (Cherry x Plum interspecific)
    P. cerasifera (Cherry Plum, Myrobalan)
    P. cerasifera x salicina (Cherry x Japanese Plum)
    P. cerasus (Sour Cherry)
    P. domestica (Most European "plums" and "prunes")
    P. domestica ssp. domestica (Blue plums a.k.a. common plums (prunes, etc.)
    P. domestica ssp. insititia (Damsons, bullaces, perdrigon, and other cooking varieties)
    P. domestica ssp. italica (Gages a.k.a. Reine Claude Plums)
    P. domestica ssp. syriaca (Mirabelle Plums)
    P. dulcis or amygdalus (Almonds)
    P. dunbarii or P. americana x maritima (Dunbars Plum)
    P. fruticosa x serrulata (Prunus Rootstock)
    P. maritima (Beach Plum)
    P. mexicana (Mexican Plum)
    P. mume (Chinese Plum or Japanese Apricot)
    P. persica (Peaches)
    P. persica var nucipersica (Nectarines)
    P. persica var. nucipersica x salicina (Nectaplum)
    P. persica x armeniaca x salicina (Peacotum)
    P. salicina (Japanese Plum)
    P. salicina x armeniaca (Plumcot)
    P. salicina x armeniaca x salicina (Pluot)
    P. salicina x avium (Pluerry)
    P. tomentosa (Nanking)
    P. tomentosa x cerasifera (Cherry Rootstock)

Still wanting to add P. pumila var besseyi (Sand Cherry), P. pumila x salicina (Sand Cherry hybrid), P. salicifolia (Capulin Cherry), P. sibirica (Siberian apricot), P. cocomilia (Italian plum), P. subcordata (Klamath, Oregon, or Sierra plum), P. umbellata (Hog plum), P. salicina x domestica (Stoneless plums),P. virginiana (Choke Cherry), P. canadensis (Canadian Choke Cherry), P. canadensis x salicina (Choke Cherry hybrid) and other Prunus species that I could find and test for compatibility. Some of these I have previously grafted and failed, so I am trying out various interstems in order to successfully add them. It's not a trial and error, but trials until successful!

Latest update March 2019.
2019... just added Sultan Plum (it has hints of cinnamon), Pojeciza,Pearl Prune, yet another Burbank plumcot, Adele, June Redskin, Lieb, America, Apex Plumcot (original version), Mammoth Cardinal from Rachel Spaeth, the curator of Luther Burbank's creations. Last month I have added, Mexican Plum (Prunus mexicana), Bing sweet cherry, another sour cherry (forgot the name but I have it on label), Chickasaw seedling plum, Autumn Jade plum, Great Yellow Plum, another seedling American plum, Dunbars plum, Beach plum seedling and Flavorich pluot. May add some more depending if my friends are able to donate on time unique cultivars and hybrids. Thanks to Rachel Spaeth for donating scionwood from Luther Burbank's collections! So it may turn into a 175-n-1 tree later in the spring.

Stay tuned for this year's updates.


Historical updates:
In 2009, when we first bought the house, it was a lousy Purple Ornamental Plum tree that was planted by the developer. I was thinking of digging it out and replacing it with something else, but I had many other activities, so it remained untouched.

In winter of 2010-2011, I had time to graft it with 8 plum cultivars that I liked. So I grafted the green-leafed plums in the lower portion and the red leafed plum such as Hollywood and Vesuvius in the upper portion of the tree. It looked good and it bore its first fruits that season.

In 2012, it had 17 different kinds of plums, patent expired pluots, non-patent plumcots and other hybrids on it.

In 2013, I just let it grow bigger and enjoyed the fruits as each cultivar ripened at different dates. I only have early season to mid-season cultivars.

In winter of 2014-15 season, starting from 2nd week of January, began my project, and ended on the 4th week, the tree was upgraded into a 50 fruit cultivars-n-1 tree. I grafted 38 new cultivars and have randomized the color patterns on the entire canopy. The grafting process took over two weeks of a few hours of many sessions. Only 2 grafts did not take, so it became a 53-n-1 tree coming into 2015 season.

2015 Summer came, the first harvests were from Hollywood plums, followed by Burgundy, then Vesuvius and so on...The 2015 crop was great tasting! It was quite a hard decision to allow some fruit production while letting the new grafts grow, and it was a delicate balancing act.

2015-16 winter season came. Most of the grafts took and are vigorous, so there are 53 in all and 50 of them had flower buds! It then produced about 50 different kinds of fruits. I acquired 32 new cultivars from the CRFG scionwood exchanges the tree was upgraded into 85-n-1, the process of grafting was very slowly because I have to find a break, well into the evenings, while I prune the tree to shape. It takes some time to plan and research which cultivars are spreading or upright and decide where to graft them. and rebalance the tree by regrafting. Interstems for peaches and cherries were also grafted. Thanks to dear friends for donating some of the interstems.

I have added interstems in 2016, I have added more Prunus species diversity in 2017 grafting season. Added on the tree are Almond (P. dulcis), Peach (P. persica), Nectaplum (P. nursipersica x salicinas), Montmorency (P. cerasus), Japanese Apricot (P. mume), P. tomentosa x cerasifera, P. fruticosa x serrulata, Nanking C-1 (P. tomentosa), 7 Plum x Apricot hybrids (patent expired), 14 Asian Plums (P. salicinas), 4 European plums (P. domestica), 8 Sweet cherries (P. avium) and 4 Apricots (P. armeniaca). I'm still waiting for shipments of other scionwood, so this isn't over yet. This brings the total of different kinds of cultivars to 130 for now. I actually did more than 200 grafts on this tree, but some of the grafts are redundant copies of the same cultivar, just simply because I want more of them. Not all of the 45 new ones that I have added would take, but I am sure after some of the new grafts dies out, what remains would be a lot more than my target of 101-n-1. Some of the cultivars would be cut off after this year's trial and I only want to maintain 101 of them. Next year, 2018, I should conclude my work for the 101-n-1 stone fruit tree as I will be reducing the current 130-n-1 to a 101-n-1 tree.

I'm building a series of 101-n-1 fruit trees. The 101-n-1 citrus tree has been achieved, and the 101-n-1 stone fruit tree has been achieved and now surpassed in terms of number of species and cultivars. Still the citruses can't be beaten for the number of different genera grafted on it.

Harvested about 80 different kinds of fruits from the grafted cultivars because they're blooming.

In 2016 season, many interstems that were grafted were now grafted over with various other species including a lot of sweet cherries, apricots, sour cherries, wild cherries and other hybrids. The tree currently has at least 21 different kinds of prunus species and their hybrids. The tree is not photoshopped as shown by the pictures.

2017-2018... I changed my mind about trimming it down to 101-n-1 fruit tree and so I added more cultivars and it is now 150-n-1 tree assuming that they all took. Some of the grafts failed, so I regrafted the failed cultivars to other cultivars on the tree using scionwood from the 2018 CRFG exchange.

Thanks to some members of GrowingFruit, I have now added P. americana and P. maritima. It looks like the P. angustifolia didn't take, so that will be added on the tree using a compatible interstem next year.

2018-2019. Added Sultan Plum (it has hints of cinnamon), Pojeciza,Pearl Prune, yet another Burbank plumcot, Adele, June Redskin, Lieb, America, Apex Plumcot (original version), Mammoth Cardinal from Rachel Spaeth, the curator of Luther Burbank's creations. Last month I have added, Mexican Plum (Prunus mexicana), Bing sweet cherry, another sour cherry (forgot the name but I have it on label), Chickasaw seedling plum, Autumn Jade plum, Great Yellow Plum, another seedling American plum, Dunbars plum, Beach plum seedling and Flavorich pluot. May add some more depending if my friends are able to donate on time unique cultivars and hybrids. Thanks to Rachel Spaeth for donating scionwood from Luther Burbank's collections! So it may turn into a 175-n-1 tree later in the spring.

Also excited to see blooms on Robusto and McKibbern (Chickasaw type of plums), Flava Beach Plum, American plums, Nankings as they were grafted last year! Hope to see their fruits and get to taste them too! Plus several other 2-year old grafts that are blooming the first time! Looking forward to many exciting new fruits this year.

17
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: May 15, 2019, 11:11:46 AM »
You can view the tree through the years and the grafting and fruit harvests!

For those who can access Facebook, I have a running updates on my now 160-n-1 tree:
https://www.facebook.com/JoeRealOne/media_set?set=a.10152893105681804.1073741916.762176803&type=1&l=b107aec886


And for those that don't like Facebook, I have a backup here:
https://growingfruit.org/t/some-fruits-of-the-150-n-1-tree/16906

18
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: May 15, 2019, 11:07:46 AM »
I am a corporate slave by day, so have to do my gardening at night.  Am doing a maxima/minima calculus approach to strapping my 160-n-1 tree so that the major scaffolds wonít break and the winds wonít make branches rub off the fruits from the tree. Trying to use the minimum number of rope length to maximize strength. You canít see the ropes? Good! Thatís one of the constraints imposed.










19
Temperate Fruit Discussion / My 160-n-1 tree this season
« on: May 15, 2019, 11:05:55 AM »
The fruit sets are tremendous this season that my 160-n-1 tree might break apart! Will need to stake this tree or thin out the fruits after strong winds removed only a third of them. Thereís still plenty left. Just to give you whatís in store from my 160-n-1 fruit tree! It might split apart if I do nothing!!!










20
Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Seeking yuzu seed
« on: May 15, 2019, 10:49:14 AM »
Sounds like a good venture Joe. I hope it pleases you. I am fond of Yuzu and wish it were a faster grower....but perhaps it is slow for a reason....seems to me that the slowest growers are the most cold hardy..
..

Yuzu when grafted on Calamondin have become fast grower and very productive for me! Not that good on trifoliate though, it is slow.

21
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Bark inversion tutorial
« on: May 15, 2019, 10:33:23 AM »
Joe, I take it that the bark inversion technique is used mostly on seedling trees.  I guess it could also be used on grafted trees to keep them shorter.  I have a Red Clementine seedling with a trunk diameter of approximately 1/4 inch.  Can the bark inversion be done on a trunk that small?  I thinking of doing the inversion to reduce the time of flowering.

Am doing it on my grafted trees as well, same effect, unless the rootstock is ultradwarfing, then very little effect. I have done it small calipers like 1/4" but you'll need the band around it to be smaller also.

22
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Dr. Malcolm Manners
« on: May 15, 2019, 10:31:16 AM »
Hi folka.  I've found you.  Thanks Millet.  Malcolm

Welcome! The gang's almost all here. Gina Albin (BabyBlue) also joined yesterday

23
They're old but still applicable!












24
Citrus flour made from peels, pulp and seeds can add a lot of dietary fibers to make bread that are healthier for you!

https://www.freshplaza.com/article/9098606/high-fiber-bread-developed-with-the-use-of-citrus-fruits/

25
As was written long ago in ancient times. They would let the citrus dry out almost to the point of death & then water it to promote blooms. I think Mike has it posted somewhere on his site.

http://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/


It's been in the literature... many things can be done to induce blooming by stress... among those I have experienced are of course water stress, temperature stress, photoperiod stress, pests and diseases too can induce stress... and this underground chemical warfare from other plants planted near their roots and excreting chemicals at the proper dosage can trigger a lot of blooming response too and we don't have much literature about it.

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