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Messages - Till

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 13, 2021, 01:50:55 AM »
Kumin, I am looking forward how your plans succeed. I would also try to cross your hardy seedling with Poncirus hybrids. When you have the potential for mass selection then use it. Crossing with citrus would compromize hardiness too much I think. But edible Changsha hybrids, as Mikkel suggest, seems to be reasonable, too, although I fear that would also weaken hardiness. Depends on how many generations you plan. At your growing conditions, 3 generations seem to be reasonable.

2
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 13, 2021, 01:45:29 AM »
The curvy leaves of Swingle 5 Star are probably a sign of dehydration because roots could not provide enough water. My Sanford Curafora and US199 have also curvy leaves during winter and thereafter. It has nothing to do with frostbite as such leaves remain vital for a very long time.

3
Citrus General Discussion / Re: monoembryony inheritance question
« on: February 12, 2021, 02:08:28 PM »
My experience with producing hybrids is much more limited than Ilya's. I used emong others the nucellar varieties Limequat, Calamondin, Vainiglia Sanguigno (an orange), Poncirus and Yuzu as mother plants. I would like to encourage everybody who is interested in hybridizing to just try combinations. Plants that usually produce nucellar seeds can also produce hybrids.
Calamondin x Poncirus is easy. There are a number of hybrids in polyembryonic seeds and a very small number of monoembryonic seeds with yellow colour (normal is green). It is interesting that the same Calamondin tree can produce (yellow) monoembryonic seeds, (green) seeds with few embryos, seeds with one yellow and some green embryos and (green) seeds overloaded with embryos. All seedlings that did not have trifoliate leaves looked exactly the same and were probably nucellar. That means Calamondin seems to produce only nucellar seeds, except it is pollinate by Poncirus (or certain other species that I did not test).
Yuzu x Poncirus gave rise to one hybrid (most seeds were lost :-(, I think there were more hybrids). Limquat x Poncirus results in an resonable number of hybrids. Limquat x Swingle5Star seems to lead to even more hybrids (tests not finished). I got one hybrid of Vainiglia Sanguigno x Poncirus out of a hugh number of pollinated flowers (sadly to say: the seedling died). Poncirus as motherplant almost compliedly failed, but last year one Poncirus tree was sucessfully crossed with Rusk Citrange (a few hybrids are already discernable).
It makes more fun to use motherplants that have mostly zygotic seeds but you should just try to use others also. Don't be disappointed but be always of good hope. As Ilya wrote the number of zygotic seeds also depends on the pollen parent. Find out what combinations work!

4
I did a lot of grafts onto 1.5-2mm thick Poncirus seedlings. I had nothing better at that time. Most grafts took. But I would not say the healing was faster as compared to thicker seedlings. How fast a graft takes is just a matter of how fast the rootstock is growing. If it is half dormant you must wait for a longer time than if it is growing at the moment. Temperature plays also a very important role. Everything done at summer temperature is healing very fast. Healing is also fast in spring due to rapid growth. Late summer is possible but healing is slow then. That is my experience.

5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« on: December 10, 2020, 05:25:47 AM »
Thank you, Ilya. For those who do not want to read too much, just look for the headline "Origins of C. ichangensis and other acid citrus varieties" in the article. Interesting also what it states about Ichang Lemon.

If someone wants to create new hybrids the exact genetic relationships of different species can often be ignored when you just look at the results of antient hybridization events and take them as they are. I think, however, that such a practical and somewhat superficial approach should keep us away from too much speculation. The motto "just try!" is good, often perhaps the only think we can do. But we should then not be disappointed when we don't get what we wanted if our plans and wishes were based on wrong assumptions about the nature of the parent species we used.

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« on: December 09, 2020, 02:35:09 PM »
You read it everywhere that Yuzu is a hybrid of Ichang Papeda. But genetic studies are not in favor of that constantly repeated supposition. I have an article in mind that demonstrated that Yuzu is not directly related to C. ichangensis but to an unknown Papeda that does probably not exist any more, which is at least not known today to any citrus expert. I try to remember the article. It was not on Yuzu but on the genetic relationship of Citrus in general. Perhaps I remember. Then I can post it here.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: N1triVoss
« on: December 08, 2020, 11:27:25 AM »
I got N1triVoss four or five years ago as budwood, grafted a bud onto a very tiny Poncirus seedling and have now a still small but well growing bush. Leaves were always monofoliate. But this year, some trifoliate leaves appeared. Here some pictures.
First nomal monofoliate leaves:


At the end of the twig trifoliate leaves:

8
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Rooting C35 cuttings
« on: December 06, 2020, 04:09:21 PM »
I tried to root a lot of cuttings of C35. I was usually successful and I got very well growing plants with strong root system. I put the cuttings sometimes in loamy soil, sometimes in compost earth, placed a plastic bag over them and put them in a shadowy position or half shadow. I made most cuttings during spring and summer, but some in autumn (indoors). Success rate was really high and I am so impressed by the good development of my cuttings that I would never waste time in growing C35 from seed.

According to my (limited) experience C35 is one of the best growing rootstocks for potted plants (besides Swingle5Star and Swingle Citrumelo, better than Carrizzo).

I don't know why experiences in rooting C35 are so different.

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Kucle x Poncirus
« on: October 30, 2020, 02:48:00 AM »
Frying?? Kucle - Pom frites?

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu x Poncirus
« on: October 29, 2020, 04:15:10 AM »
Almost no growth on Yuzu x Poncirus this year. It stood in my glas house where all other Citrus plants prospered. So I would conclude that it is genetically weak if I did not made some observations:
- Its stem became bigger.
- Roots are dense and look healthy.
- It hesitatively began growing only during cool spells when temperature in my glas house fell below 20C and remained under 25C during daylight.
- Pure Poncirus is also not doing well in my glas house. Climate is probably too hot there.
- Yuzu x Poncirus did grow about 1/3 weaker than Yuzu in the first year, so all in all did not bad in the first year.

So my conclusion: Yuzu x Poncirus dislikes warm temperature. It needs a climate like Poncirus. I will test it outside my glas house the next year. Could be that it turns out to be a very good plant for open ground.

I shall not forget to say: Its leaves have NO Poncirus taste. Interesting for a Poncirus hybrid! Trifoliate leaves are, however, more persistent than in the mainly monofoliate Kucle x Poncirus hybrid that I mentioned elsewhere.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Kucle x Poncirus
« on: October 29, 2020, 04:02:47 AM »
I forgot another picture of some Kucle seedlings without Poncirus influence:



Sorry for the pure picture quality. But you see that one seedling has leaves like willow leaf mandarine, one has winged petioles (a Yuzu hybrid?), one has very big leaves for its size (a Pummelo hybrid?) and some - not so clearly visible on the photo - look much like kumquats.

By the way, I reported about a mainly monofoliate seedling with initially trifoliate leaves. This seedling never produced trifoliate leaves again and its leaves contain no Poncirus taste whatsoever. Strangly enough, one of the seedlings from the photo above got one bifoliate leave but was otherwise monofoliate. I can only speculate why this is so. Regarding the monofoliate seedling with initially trifoliate leaves, I had the idea it might be triploid (2x Kucle + 1x Poncirus).

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Kucle x Poncirus
« on: October 29, 2020, 03:51:01 AM »
I just want to give you an update of my Kucle x Poncirus hybrids. Growth was very good in my new glashouse. Here a few photos:





I have tasted some leaves. Poncirus taste is present in all hybrids but it is not equally strong in all. When I compare them to my Calamondin x Poncirus hybrid I shall add that none of my Kucle hybrids has a noteworthy mandarine flavor in its leaves. This was a little surprise for me since Kucle is related to willow leaf mandarine and Calamondin x Poncirus has a very strong mandarine taste in its leaves.


13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Calamondin x Poncirus
« on: October 29, 2020, 03:39:35 AM »
I just want to give you a small update of my plant. Here a new Photo. Very good growth in my glashouse. My Calamondin x Poncirus grew slowly but constantly, so almost without the typical growth-flushes. And a curiosity is also that it branches on immature soft wood. Despite its seemingly slow growth it grew several times larger than it was at the begining of the year, just because it was constantly growing.
Here a photo:



The leaves have a moderate Poncirus taste combined with strong mandarine taste. Bitterness is not very strong.

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nearly thornless Conestoga segentrange
« on: August 05, 2020, 08:50:01 AM »
I have a Calamondin x Poncirus hybrid. It also has only small short spines. All my Kucle x Poncirus hybrids have long spines though the lenght varies a bit. Then I have a Yuzu x Poncirus hybrid with only very short spines and sometimes no spines at all. It is not totally clear to me how that feature is inherited.

15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland
« on: June 17, 2020, 04:05:45 PM »
@Ursirius
Thank you for your friendly answer! I`ll try to be less absent in the future. When your email adress has not changed I can keep up our contact via email.

Regarding your clone of HRS899, I was positively surprised that you did not find its fruits resinious. I remember that the fruit you sent me (the ebay-fruit) was similar resinous as I knew it from Poncirus. But I also remember a nice Citrus smell and a little bit mandarine taste with some sweetness besides relatively weak Poncirus smell and taste. Now, my fruit had already dried out a bit and it was as you wrote the first fruit ever. Did you observe that fruit quality improved over the years?

Perhaps an encouragement for breeding: All seedlings from your fruit were different and all seeds were monoembryonic. Some seeds were defective as we know it from other plant hybrids. But a fair emount was well developed. Those germinated well.

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland
« on: June 14, 2020, 03:01:40 AM »
Hello Ursirius,

the fruits of URS899 that you describe on page 2 in comparision with Flying dragon are they from the same tree from which you send me a fruit a few years ago? You offered a fruit via ebay that I bought. And subsequently we had intense contact via email. You also send me some files for copying.

I feel by the way quite guilty that I did not keep up our contact. I was very buisy shortly after our conversation (marriage, moving, new job, then baby) but I know that is a pure excuse for letting fall asleep our contact.

Regards,
Till

17
Hello,

I had to prune my Changsha Citrandarin - tragically enough. There was critical bark die back due to a wound infected by mould during our wet winter. So I had to cut off one of its two biggest branches, about 80 cm long and very well branched. Now I have this otherwise very strong branch and can send it whole or in parts to those who would like to have budwood or cuttings.

I have the plant from www.pflanzen-des-Suedens.de (Mr. Meeder, Germany). It is still listed there (https://www.pflanzen-des-suedens.de/Citruspflanzen/In-Vorbereitung/; No. 9). I have not yet gotten fruits. So all that I can say is that it is a strong plant on Poncirus rootstock that has thick thorny twigs and thick evergreen leaves.

In case that more than one person is interested I would divide the branch. I live in Germany. So I can ship to countries in the EU, probably to Brittany, Switzerland and all countries that have no importation bann for Citrus plants.

Yours,Till

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Kucle x Poncirus
« on: March 21, 2020, 06:22:59 PM »
Indeed, the fruits are very sour. But the fruits I ate had a mandarine aroma. The peel of my fruits was somewhat sweet and not very bitter. Good for lemonade. The taste of the fruits resembles Calamondin, I would say, not awful to my taste but nothing you would like to eat out of hand.

Kucle is not available in Amerika, so far as I have heard from others in the US.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Calamondin x Poncirus
« on: March 08, 2020, 01:13:49 PM »
That is true. There can be hybrids among the monofoliate ones. But it seems to me that this case is very rare with Calamondin, at least if you let it pollinate itself. All seedlings of Calamondin that I had so far looked exactly the same, no variation in leaf form, except for the trifoliate seedlings. I could imagine that Calamondin produces some hybrid seedlings when cross pollinated by other citrus. Given the flower form of Calamondin natural cross pollination is, however, unlikely.

But when you ask yourself what seedling you should keep than you will look for those you want to have. And these are in our case the trifoliate ones, no matter how their fruit quality will be. Since trifoliate leaves are always dominantly inherited you can be sure that all Poncirus hybrids are trifoliate and that only the trifoliate ones are Poncirus hybrids (or Citrange hybrids etc.). Calamondin x Poncirus hybrids are, besides their hardiness, interesting because you can use them as a test to what degree Kumquat genes can suppress the bad taste of Poncirus, I mean the internal oils and the bitter taste. The existing Citrangequats give me some hope that it is possible but I know nothing for sure at the moment. So producing Calamondin x Poncirus hybrids is just an experiment for me. In case that the results are negative (= bad fruit taste) I will still gain the possiblity for further crosses. When the peel of C. X P. hybrids is sweet (seemingly a dominat trait of Kumquat) I could cross them with other Poncirus hybrids and have the hope that I do finally get a Poncirus hybrid with sweet edible peel.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: February 18, 2020, 04:30:05 AM »
Interesting!

The Poncirus types I tasted were always very aromatic. Lemonade of all types (after one night, without the oils...) tasted orangelike not so much lemonlike with strong flavor even after delusion with approximately 6-8 parts of water.

I found it interesting that the sugar content of Ilya11s samples is so different. When I look into Japanese gen bank NIAS (https://www.gene.affrc.go.jp/databases-plant_search_en.php), I find high sugar content in many Poncirus types.

I am asking myself why Poncirus+ has such a small amount of sticky oils. Is it perhaps heterozygous in that respect, I mean it has only one active gene producing the oil? If so we could totally breed it out by selfing. Has somebody grown Poncirus+ seedlings to maturity?

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu x Poncirus
« on: February 18, 2020, 04:15:11 AM »
My Yuzu x Poncirus seems to be extremly dormant in winter. It stands in a winter garden for a few weeks now. Calamondin x Poncirus is growing. Kucle x Poncirus starts growing, Swingle 5 Star seedlings, even Eremorange and two Yuzu seedlings, the latter just hesitatingly beginning. But buds of Yuzu x Poncirus have not become bigger. Pure Poncirus has become big buds in a glashouse that is cooler than the winter garden.

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu x Poncirus
« on: February 16, 2020, 04:52:26 PM »
Socal2warm, nice! Have you made the cross yourself? No trifoliate leaves? i do not see any on the photo.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: February 16, 2020, 04:50:45 PM »
I also tasted fruits from different Poncirus trees. The taste and juiciness of the fruits has definitely something to do with the specific clone because tree that stood side by side had different taste. Bitterness was sometimes very pronounced sometimes almost not present. So it is worth checking different trees and seaching for better clones.
Mikkel was so kind and sent me samples of the Poncirus from Ellerhoop. To my taste, it was quite bitter and fruits just average. But harvest and position of the fruits my play a role.
I found one Poncirus type with almost no bitterness and much less repellant taste and smell. I could taste fruits in two subsequent years, grafted twigs to normal Poncirus and could taste my own fruits last year. Taste was always much better than other Poncirus types I know. (I do not know Swamp Lemon and Poncirus+.) Still, I would not call it "lovely" or "inviting". Lemonade, however, is very good (better aroma than orange or lemon lemonade) but only if you let the juice stand in an open glas for one night, so that the sticky oil can be seperated and certain pine flavors disappear.

Aside from fruit taste, I found other differences between Poncirus types. Some tended to bloom several times a year and especially in autumn during warm spells. Other never did that. My favorate finding never breaks dormancy during warm weather in autumn, even not in a green house. But precocious Poncirus frustrated me because it tries to bloom in autumn when weather is warm. But the flower buds are not totally mature at that moment. So I get flowers the wrong time and the flowers are misdeveloped so that I do not even get pollen. I also know a Poncirus in Bonn botanical garden that blooms in autumn and sometimes also in summer. Another Poncirus in Bonn does not do that.

So whoever wants to improve Poncirus by crossbreeding may also look at plant characteristics that influence winter dormancy.

Thank you very much, Ilya11, for your clear comparision of fruits. That gives me a good idea of the differences. And I would say, Poncirus+ must be much better than the best type I found. My type has a normal amount of sticky oil. It tastes less sour than other Poncirus but the difference is not so great. Still sour. Perhaps just a false perception because it has less repellant aromata than other Poncirus types. But the juice is definitely not bitter (to my taste).

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: February 16, 2020, 04:14:12 PM »
I have pollinated Kucle with precocious Poncirus. Kucle is very susceptable to Poncirus pollen and 100% monoembryonic and zygotic. But fruits are not yet ripe. I keep you updated.

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Calamondin x Poncirus
« on: February 16, 2020, 03:58:14 PM »
Gratulation, Tom! Yes, it will be very interesting, how much variation our seedlings will have.
I have placed mine in the wintergarden now and it starts growing. I want to push it a bit this year that I can better see how it develops.

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