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Messages - Galatians522

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http://rfcarchives.org.au/Next/Fruits/Litchi/LycheeCultivars11-93.htm
One more thing. Most lychee areas (1000 miles north to south) had comparative evaluations of types here such as the one for warmer types for the Atherton Tablelands in the link and I would imagine similar evaluation would be around in Florida, southern Queensland and California even if old and dated. New glamorous types are omitted sure but getting varieties identified correctly is important. Popular types like haak yip and tai so have not been one standard thing for over 50 years.


Thanks Mike,
That is an awesome list. Like Simon, I am always interested to hear what you think about lychees (and other fruits). I was surprised to see that Emperor/Chakrapad was rated so poorly on taste and quality in Australia as it is one of my favorite varieties. I think ours must have been sweeter than 16 brix. I know that a grower from south Florida told us that ours were way better than what they were getting down there. Maybe its a soil thing?

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Hereís the thread which pictures comparing Sweetheart and Hak Ip. The link also has a link to another thread where I posted pictures of the real Hak Ip.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=17117.msg216973#msg216973
Simon


Simon,
Thank you for this. You put a lot of work into tracking everything down. Your dad sounds like an amazing resource. I am going to see if I can find some more posts regarding lychee identification.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Mammea americana air layering?
« on: November 22, 2020, 10:09:11 PM »
Julia Morton indicates that cuttings have been used for this species in Fruits of Warm Climates. I can't think of a plant that can be propigated by cuttings that will not airlayer. Approach grafting with a seedling in a pot would be another easy option for people with limited grafting skills (like me).  :-\

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Sure, the tree is at my Dad's place. He is the one who thought we should plant it--I was highly skeptical at the time from listening to the "experts." I will try get some pictures when I am over there. Then, I'll have to learn how to up load them to the forum.  :P

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Minneola Tangelo Tree
« on: November 22, 2020, 12:16:49 PM »
The large leaf in the bottom of the last picture shows a different pattern of chlorosis on the right vs the left half of the leaf. Greening is the only thing that causes that to my knowledge. Nutritional deficiencies tend to display a mirror image on both sides of the leaf.

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I have done a lot of thinking about lychee seedling variability (including the juvinile period). As people continue to select for desireable traits, those traits become more concentraited in the offspring. Thus a seedling grown from an ancient cultivar like Brewster will be much less likely to produce offspring with traits that people desire. Conversely, a seedling of a newer cultivar like Emperor/Chakrapad has had many generations to weed out undesireable traits and will be far more likely to produce the way people want it to.

Add to this that Brewster was thought by Groff to be a hybrid of Shan Chi (Mountain Lychee) and a "water lychee." This makes it quite variable from seed and is supported (at least to me) by the fact that one of the two trees we grew from Brewster seed produces fruit that looks exactly like the pictures (on USDA germplasm request website) I have seen of Shan Chi. Ie it is small, seedy, spiney, sour and took about 25 years to come into bearing.

The Emperor seedling on the other hand is exactly like emperor, leaves, tree, and fruit. It came into bearing quickly from seed and started blooming at only 6'-7' tall.

This would explain the disconnect between "expert" opinions. People came to different conclusions because they started with a different gene pool to begin with.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Organic lychee management
« on: November 21, 2020, 08:34:13 PM »
If you do a google search for "Wen-Hsun Chen Culture of the Lychee", you will find an article that is full of the kind of information you need. Mr. Chen mentions among other things how his family gave their lychee to Rev. Brewster who brought it to Florida. Apparently the variety is over 1,000 years old! (Heirloom lychees anyone? Lol!) He also mentions that he was surprised to learn that lychees did not grow in Gainesville because his native town of Hinghwh had lower winter lows (even though its latitude corresponds more closely to Homestead). He claims to have seen lychee trees survive a low of 9 degrees in Hinghwh (although they did not fruit for two years afterward). He attributes this REMARKABLE feat to the degree of dormancy the trees achieve in China vs. in Florida. Its a fascinating read even if you don't agree with everything he says.

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Guys really digging this thread, as too my lychee tree I bought it from lychee tree nursery in Stuart FL as labeled as sweetheart, they sell a nice variety of lychee trees that are in great shape. Galatians, congrats on fruiting those two trees, Iím hoping I can be so lucky with my seedling. Iím not expecting it to be a winner but there is always a slim chance it could be and I am growing from seed other types of tropical fruit for this reason. I sprout out a bunch of seeds and hang on to whatever has different leaves or growth habit to see what the fruit eventually comes out like. In the end itís the way new varieties come about, somebodyís gotta buy a few lotto tickets 👍

Joe

The odds are way better with fruit trees. I don't know why more people don't do it.  ;D

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LL the pic from the link has tubercles correct but is the wrong red colour and not exactly the right shape with some fruit not being conical enough. Maybe look at n old thread where I posted pics of large 50g FZS which were redder than the standard form. They are distinctive. Haak yip looks wrong in some pics I have seen posted also. Besides FZS, erdom lee and sansuelin there is only really one other big lychee (routinely over say 40g) and that is Yook ho pow which is also called

Thanks Mike, that is very valuable information. We have Emperor (Chakrapad originally) that averages well over 40g when cultural care is good, with Sweet Heart, and Florida Haak Yip being the next largest. I am pretty sure they both average over 40g, but will have to pay closer attention when we harvest next year.

Btw, I think what you call Haak Yip in Australia we have mislabeled as Ohia in Florida. It matches the pictures and discription I saw from Australia and even tastes vaguely like Kiamana. I always wondered why the Thai would have called it Ohia ("the very best" or something like that) when it never has a chicken tongue seed and is a little on the small side.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Banana Spacing
« on: November 21, 2020, 06:20:12 PM »
I have been thinking about your dilemma. Because bananas are more like a grass than a woody tree, they are "semi-mobile." I have watched a patch of sugarcane migrate close to 10' around the edge of a pond over the years (with no human intervention). You could intentionaly do the same with your bananas by only allowing them to send up suckers on the outside edge. In a couple years the original clumps would be 20' appart and would be 10' from the clump you planted in the middle.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Tree's and floodings
« on: November 21, 2020, 08:37:40 AM »
Clutivated muscadines (vitis rotundifolia) are not native to my part of the state. When I pick wild florida muscadines (vitis munsonia) the ones on low swampy soil ripen first. Sometimes as early as the end of May. The high ground grapes typically ripen later in the season, and I have picked them as late as November in xeric locations. However, I don't know if this is a direct result of flooding because the low ground grapes tend to bloom first, too. Flooded grapes don't taste as sweet, so the ones on low ground have a better chance of passing on their genetics if they can ripen before the summer rains start (typically in June). Just my theory from personal observations with no scientific study to back it up.  :P

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*correction it is in a 15 gal pot.

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I am not an expert on sour sop, but since no one else has answered your question, I will tell you what I know. They DO NOT LIKE COLD. We grew some seedlings exactly like what you have a few years ago because the seeds were give to us by an Indonesian friend. They experienced leaf burn from weather in the 40s. The symptoms looked exactly like frost damage, but we never had a frost. It was just from the cold and dry wind. A light frost (mid to upper 30s) defoliated an 8' tall tree in our neighborhood. Based on that I would not be surprised if prolonged weather in the 50s made your plant unhappy. Maybe you could bring it in at night until it gets bigger. Remarkably, one of those seedlings I mentioned did end up fruiting last year outside in a 7 gal pot!   ???

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Minneola Tangelo Tree
« on: November 20, 2020, 11:39:29 PM »
I'm not sure if you ever got the answer you were looking for, but those are classic citrus greening symptoms. The leaves are distorted by the psylids sucking juice from them when they are young and the leaves display blotchy yellow spots in no discernable pattern.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Tree's and floodings
« on: November 20, 2020, 11:21:43 PM »
Although they are not "fruit trees," I have been amazed at how much water muscadine grapes can take and still produce fruit.

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There is no secret of the "story" behind it (its actually published).  Here is what makes the story unbelievable and a little BSish...even if the trees were tossed in Andrew, the paperwork should have been in existence.
 This paperwork identifying the varieties would have been important as they would have had to report it for quarantine purposes
[/quote]

You make some excellent points and are very insightful. I would not be at all surprised if he knew the names of the 5 varieties they imported even if the paperwork had been lost. However, a savvy business man wouldn't give up "proprietary" information that would enable people bypass his trademark. Lychees were more than a hobby for him. They were his livelihood. That is why I never pressed him about the names of those 5 varieties.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Organic lychee management
« on: November 20, 2020, 09:53:42 PM »
Haak yip is a heat loving early bearer with low chill requirements and its daughter kaimana needs even less chill. Maybe the least of all. Brewster has identity issues and likes it much cooler.
The pink Kwai mi (B-3) is a much more consistent bearing lychee here. So would guess it has even less chill requirement than Kaimana.

Oscar and Mike,
Thank you for your comments on Kiamana. It helps confirm something we had suspected for a while now. All of our Kiamana were in a single row that gets pretty wet. It sounds like the failure to perform is the reault of not drying out sufficiently durring the dormant period more than the chill factor. We have planted more on high ground (based on that thinking) and will see how they fare.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Organic lychee management
« on: November 20, 2020, 09:42:41 PM »

A lot of that depends on the size of the tree, how long the cold lasts, and the conditions leading up to the freeze. The larger and more dormant the tree the more it can take. 32 can kill a 3gal size tree, but typically won't even burn a leaf on a 20' monster. When we had 19 here in Sebring I am told that mature Brewster trees were frozen back to the main scaffold limbs and trunk.

Interesting! Just the info I needed actually.
Youíre right about dormancy. Last year the first cold event happened where it went from 80 to 40 F within 6 hours, with no acclimation period before hand. That scalded  a couple leaves on almost every lychee seedling (although it didnít kill any).
Then as the winter progressed dormancy must have kicked in because it hit 27 F several times and 30F a few more times (about 10 light freezes total). Interestingly none of these actual freezes had any negative effects on any of the lychees,  not even the 3 inch seedlings (because by then they were all acclimated).. so your info about 32 F killing a 3 gallon sapling I must laugh at. Lol

That particular freeze happened in the '70s, so I was not actually alive then but it came to mind because it had the same low as what you mentioned. But, this is what I rememember from what the "old timers" have told me. We had 1" of snow in Sebring, there was freezing weather on 3-4 consecutive nights, and it was still 28 at noon the day after we had the 19 degree low. Basically all the young trees were killed and the trees I mentioned being frozen back to main limbs and trunk were likely 30-40 years old at the time and were all near lakes. No one planted lychees for a long time.  :-\

Also, we actually start protective measures for our trees when the forecasted temp is 38. There are many reasons for this, but this post is too long already. I'll just say that nothing reduces your faith in the weather man like growing tropical fruit trees in central Florida. I have seen it all.

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The more I look at Joe's lovely harvest the more I am sure they are FZS or a selection of them. Are seeds small with lots of chicken tongues? Seedlings are dicey, no doubt about it in spite of a study that encourages growing them. Erdon Lee supposedly gives faster and better quality seedling fruiting than most. I wonder how true they are.

You could be right. Sweetheart is just a trademarked marketing name because the original growers lost the tags from the trees that they imported from Australia.

Yes, as they were originally supposed "unknown" varieties brought in from Australia.  Possibly they "conveniently" lost the tags from "unknown" varieties...

I personally know the son from the family that imported Sweet Heart. He told me that the tags were lost in Hurricane Andrew (for those who were not in Florida then "war zone" would be the most accurate discription of South Florida after Andrew). He also claimed that the original tree produced much larger fruit (closer to Emperor size). This fits with Mike's statement about larger fruited strains of FZS.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Lychee
« on: November 20, 2020, 06:52:33 PM »
We have fruited Emperor in 25 gal pots, but they were hard to keep watered enough and we had a lot of fruit splitting.

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Mike,
You nailed the description of Sweet Heart--shriveled seed, slightly softer flesh, elastic peel, and ripe with some green on the skin. The pictures I have seen of FZS in Australia look just like Sweet Heart. It definitely is in that family along with Hak Ip (Florida Hak Ip). The the main difference between the two seems to be panicle size and a slight flavor difference. Just as you mentioned, there are often strains of the same variety with slightly different characteristics. It think both of these are strains of FZS based on your comments.

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Joe, we grew 2 Brewster seedlings to fruition. One took about 25 years, the other was closer to 30. The fruit quality on both was poor. We also have an Emperor seedling that fruited after 5-6 years and I can't tell the difference between it and the air layerd trees in taste and quality.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Organic lychee management
« on: November 19, 2020, 10:08:41 PM »
You say Brewster is a cold lover. I realize most lychees can get into the 20s (F). How cold can a Brewster get  without being burnt to the ground?
Because I recently bought 5 Brewster trees on clearance, and my area routinely has 9b and 9a winters,  but occasionally even slightly colder drops than just 9a (once or twice a decade a brief drop to 19 F).. so.. do you think these will survive in the right microclimate? And should I plant them near the bank of the stream or on higher elevation  where the sand is drier (both areas have partial oak canopy)?

A lot of that depends on the size of the tree, how long the cold lasts, and the conditions leading up to the freeze. The larger and more dormant the tree the more it can take. 32 can kill a 3gal size tree, but typically won't even burn a leaf on a 20' monster. When we had 19 here in Sebring I am told that mature Brewster trees were frozen back to the main scaffold limbs and trunk.

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Organic lychee management
« on: November 19, 2020, 09:54:37 PM »
Kiamana has not had a noticeably lower chill requirement in my experience. At least not what we have by that name in Florida. Its quality, though is excellent.

Dang Rob dont take your toys and leave.  Hawaii has low chill type I me tioned before like kaimana.
[/quote]

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Sesame

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