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My 6-8 year old 20' Brogdan fruited for the first time this year holding about 25 fruit.  All was going well till a couple weeks ago when all the fruit developed 1" scab?? spots that rotted through on the lower half all in the same location.  Is this going to be an ongoing annual issue?  I know Brogdan are supposed to be thin skinned and wonder if that could be a contributing factor.  I have never sprayed any of my fruit trees and really don't want to start now.  One of the reasons I selected a Brogdan was I thought it was pretty much free of significant disease issues.  Thanks.

Lancetilla has a flavor & texture profile similar to Kent, but SIGNIFICANTLY better and later.  It is also more disease resistant.  When PROPERLY RIPENED it has a classic rich sweet clean pure mango flavor without any offensive undertones or aftertastes.   A good Lancetilla trumps Keitt, Kent, Beverly (narrowly) & Valencia Pride though VP has a different flavor profile (VP is mild  - Lancetilla is rich).  Lancetilla is rated 4 out of 5 stars for flavor by Pine Island Nursery and highly recommended for good flavor by John Painter/Pantropic Groves (Shot) who grows them on hos 15 acre mango farm in Bokellia.  Lancetilla due to it's size takes longer to ripen on the counter & many of the bad reviews stem from people eating it too soon.  It admittedly does have very poor flavor if eaten before fully ready.   Lancetilla isn't just an oddball mango it is also a very enjoyable eating experience.  It needs to get more respect than it does.  Anyone looking a very late mango should try Lancetilla for themselves, just make sure you give them enough time on the counter to come up to full flavor.   

Over my head, Rob.  Crying over spilled milk?  Tell me, nighthawk, have you tasted carrot in Neelam?  Maybe it's a taste buds thing.

Never had neelam before, but not prone to detecting carrot flavors. The only thing I have detected carrot in a little bit was Maha Chanoook and one other that I don't recall.  I have heard other people say that MC has a carrot taste to them also.  But the carrot flavor was most prominent in the Angie.  If you watch the Sulcata grove video on Angie they are also are both emphasizing how dominant the carrot flavor is.  The SG family is a bit split on Carrie. They don't love it or hate it, but never thought it tasted like carrot.  Carrie to me has such a classic mango flavor that it seems like the only people that would dislike Carrie would dislike Haden or anything else with a traditional classic mango flavor.


They may have been eaten in SW Florida, but they were grown in SE Florida.   ;) ;) ;)

Okay.  Well, if you got them from Richard Campbell, he loves them and was the one sold everyone on them back in the beginning.

Sulcata Grove I think got them from Dr. C's boys and possibly another source over multiple seasons.  I got mine from another SE source.  But that is 3 experienced mango tasters over multiple seasons, getting them from different places, all saying the cooked carrot flavor is the dominant flavor in Angie in all the ones we've tried.  We can't all be crazy right?  I have tried Carrie's at every possible stage you can try them and there has never been any carrot or other vegetable flavor.  I know some mango's can vary wildly in flavor by just an extra day on the counter.  I trust people who says it tastes good just wondering what the issues might be?  Before I saw the Sulcata video on Angie, I thought it was just me that thought they tasted like Gerber baby food carrots.  Angie was actually the strongest carrot/sweet potato/acorn squash flavor I've ever detected in any mango I've tried before.

Alex, you said that your customers find Carrie and Angie indistinguishable.  How about you?  Do think Angie is as sweet?  (I don't.)

Yes. Angie has compared very favorably to Carrie for me, though I donít get to eat them as much as I like (they all get sold). Now something to consider is that weather conditions at time of harvest, horticultural practices and harvesting time can all have an impact on a cvs flavor and it may be that Angie is more sensitive to changes in the above.

Iíve found that Indians and Caribbean customers love the Angie and find it a more than acceptable alternative to the Carrie.

If we were to take 5 properly ripened Angie and carries, cut them up and put them on separate unlabeled plates, I feel most people wouldnít be able to tell which was which.

Alex - I will take your word for it that the ones myself & Sulcata grove have tried may not have been Angie at it's best, but are you saying nobody else has ever said they tasted like cooked carrots?   Thanks.  : )

With Angie, resin yes.  Cooked carrots no.  But only medium sweet for me.  Texture is firm and melting, fiber-free, perfect.  I guess Southwest Florida does not bring out the best in Angie.

They may have been eaten in SW Florida, but they were grown in SE Florida.   ;) ;) ;)


1. Both Carla & Cotton Candy are supposed to trump Keitt for flavor, but will their season stretch into September+?

2. Do Carla & Cotton Candy trump Honey Kiss & Lancetilla for flavor?

3. Can anyone describe Carla & Cotton Candy's flavor profile or compare them to any other common varieties?  People say CC tastes like CC, which really doesn't tell you much other than to say it tastes sweet as sugar.



Alex, you said that your customers find Carrie and Angie indistinguishable.  How about you?  Do think Angie is as sweet?  (I don't.)

The Angie's that both myself the the folks at Sulcata grove have had have been horrible spitters. One of the worst varieties I've ever had. They taste like cooked carrots.  Sulcata grove says they have tried them in 3 different seasons and agree.  Maybe we both just had bad luck because some people say they are good, but any comparison to Carrie is absurd IMHE.


The choices for very late Mangoes are somewhat limited.   The end of August often signals the end of mango season, but there are a few other varieties that hang on after the all the others are done.  There is always Keitt which is the latest of the late & deserving of yard space for that alone, but what about the others?  Lancetilla & Beverly are listed as being September mangos by PIN and Honey Kiss is supposed to be a September mango also.  All three of these varieties have good flavor, but there are subtle differences between them in flavor that is noticeable. Personal preference may be the key as neither stands out from the rest for flavor & their overall scores are very close.

1. Beverly - One of the traditional late season Zill family favorites.  These are the ones they kept for themselves at the end of the season.  Beverly has a lot going for it.  It's large, juicy, VERY good firm flesh, even ripening, mostly classic mango flavor, ripens well on the counter, etc. The ones I had were very clean without external or internal issues. PIN viewer gives it a 4 star flavor rating. What set's Beverly apart is that it does have a unique slightly "Turpentine/Asian"?? key component that some will either think adds or subtracts from it.  It's a flavor component that I have detected in Duncan, but it's much more pronounced in Beverly.  It is probably a characteristic that you would like if you grew up eating this mango so I understand why Walter Zill says his life "wouldn't be complete without a Beverly tree".  The turp/asian component is also probably something that would grow on you or that you and would come to like or notice less with time.  If you like Duncan you will like Beverly possibly even more if you like Duncan's undertones & aftertaste.  Beverly Fruit Quality Score: 8.5 - Flavor Score 7.25 

2. Honey Kiss - This has been compared to a late SMALL late Keitt with bit of honey. That is probably fairly accurate.  The "hint of honey" is similar to a touch of Nam Doc Mai flavor (in a good way). It is a smallish, juicy, semi-creamy, mild flavored mango and would probably be popular with a wide number of people.  The ones I had did suffer from some uneven ripening ala Cushman/Keitt and even had the Cushman orange ring around the outside as well as some minor jelly seed, but this didn't subtract from the overall flavor or enjoyment.  Probably it was a good thing that Walter Zill saved the original tree from his brother Gary's chainsaw.  :  )

If you like Glenn's or small late Keitt's with just a dash of NDM #4 honey flavor added than HK is probably one that you would enjoy.  For flavor it does edge out Beverly IMHO, but the flavor profiles are somewhat different and scores are close so YMMV.  HK overall Fruit Quality Score: 7.0........HK Flavor Score:  7.5

3. Lancetilla - Ok it's a freakishly large mango.  It can get the size of a football & reach 5 pounds.  It's a conversation piece & just for geeky fruit collectors and probably tastes bad or weird right?   Well that's what I thought also.  I was wrong.  PIN gives it 4 stars for flavor and I can see why.  No doubt Lancetilla gets bad reviews because it does take a long time to ripen up due to it's size and most people probably are trying them prematurely when they "look ready" but really aren't. I will concede that Lancetilla BEFORE it comes up to full flavor is a TOTAL ZERO!!  Once they fully ripen Lancetilla is VERY enjoyable eating experience.  It has been compared to a Kent for texture & flavor, and while that may be true Lancetilla is considerably better & significantly more satisfyingly enjoyable than any Kent I've had.  It has true classic mango flavor without any turp or other possibly offensive subtle flavors so it should appeal to just about anyone who like mangoes.  Lancetilla has a pleasantly subtle tart component that I haven't detected in Kent.  Out of all the September varieties I've tried Keiit, Kent, Beverly & Honey Kiss I enjoyed Lancetilla the most.  There is also something primitively satisfying about diving face first into an ice cold watermelon sized mango over the kitchen sink on a hot Florida summers day.  Despite the size of the fruit, Lancetilla is also a tree that can be controlled and kept under control.  Lancetilla gets a lot of notice because of it's size, but it may need to get more respect as possibly being the best tasting very late September mango there is.  The fruit is also very clean & would probably even be a relatively good keeper & shipper due to it's long ripening time.  I also suspect that it isn't MBBS prone like Kent, but maybe Squam can chime in on this.  Just one of these that will leave you feeling full.  Would make for great summer picnic mango fresh off the ice or to enjoy as you're slowing tubing down river.  If you are looking to add a very late mango variety give Lancetilla a try.  You might be pleasantly surprised as I was.  Just make sure you wait for them to FULLY RIPEN first.  Overall Fruit Quality Score: 9.......Overall Flavor & Texture Score 7.75+


1. Lancetilla: 7.75+
2. Honey Kiss: 7.50
3. Beverly: 7.25

Let the fights begin........... 8) 8) 8)




OS no contest. PPK didnít even make the top 30 2018..... itís been a bad year

Really?  Chris at Truly Tropical sells 80 of the best varieties of Mangoes.  PPK is a top 5 seller for her every year (Carrie, Edward, Glenn & VP are the other 4). What people actually buy with their money is the best popular survey there is.     

Top selling does not make them the best.  Carrie is a huge seller in this area due to the large Indian population.

I didn't realize "Carrie" Zill was from India?.........who knew?  The Zill family matriarch no doubt had about every mango there was in the 1940's and the "Carrie" was her favorite. That's why it Lawrence Zill named it after his mother.  Ask Gary Zill what his grandmother Carrie's favorite mango was.  The fact that Carrie has been around for 80 years and still remains the #1 top fruit stand seller in Florida says a lot.  Once again nobody is saying YOU have to think they taste good, just realize most people think it's one of the best.     

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Best tasting mangos of 2018
« on: August 07, 2018, 09:30:46 PM »
I had my first ever peach cobblers from my tree. All I can say is that it is named correctly as it had the strongest peach flavor Iíve ever had in a mango.

I brought some juicy peaches (and others) to Illinois with me and the people I shared them with were blown away by how good it was.  Their farm xperience is mostly Tommyís from the supermarket. But I agree the JP was fantastic.

Paul, that does not sound good...Peach Cobbler does not have a peach taste.  It is zingy citrus in flavor, most reminicent of candied tangerine (like the old fashioned tangerine Life Saver).

Sulcata Grove family says it "smells like baked peach cobbler & tastes like peach with hints of coconut".   

"Me thinks your taste buds have an issue.. need a re-calibration..."..................... 8) 8) 8)

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Best tasting mangos of 2018
« on: August 07, 2018, 08:57:26 PM »
Hold onto to your shorts - the biggest pleasant surprise of 2018 for this guy?  Lancetilla - it just takes a long time for the football sized fruits to fully ripen and come up to full flavor on the counter due to their size.  It was like a Kent, but significantly better with a tart component to it that Kent doesn't seem to have.  It is also later than Kent and supposedly a tree that can be kept compact.  I thoroughly enjoyed woofing down a skinned 3lb mango over the kitchen sink.  Lancetilla has classic mango full flavor without any unusual or offending off flavors & it's better than other well known "lates" like Valencia Pride, Keitt, Kent, Honey Kiss or Beverly IMHE. So far it is the best VERY LATE (September+) mango I've ever tasted.  It was so good I will probably be planting it along with Keitt as one of my two very late varieties.  Lancetilla is very deserving of it's 4 star PIN flavor rating and probably should be talked about more.  It's not just a large "freak" mango - it's very good. If you're looking for a good late mango to try it's worth buying one to sample, just make sure you let it fully ripen!!  I actually bought it as an afterthought at Fruitscapes on Pine Island and wasn't expecting it to be anything special.  They were actually sitting off by themselves and no customers seemed to be very interested in them.  Even the guys at Fruitscapes didn't seem to have ever tried them or know much about them. I was VERY pleasantly surprised.  Arguably the best tasting VERY LATE season mango there is - granted the competition is limited. 

Carrie and Mallika are absolutely nothing alike.

My taste buds beg to differ.......IMHE.  While I am still thinking about planting a Mallika the season/flavor profile is similar enough to the mature Carrie that I already have that I don't feel the need.   

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Stolen fruit grrrr
« on: August 07, 2018, 08:09:41 PM »
You guys should see the hi-tech perimeter cameras guarding the fence lines at John Painters mango farm on Pine Island.  Better camera system than the White House.  Just about every place on Pine Island than grows/sells fruit has cameras there. 

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Stolen fruit grrrr
« on: August 07, 2018, 08:06:29 PM »
Get video, license plate #1 and file an affidavit for trespass & simple theft.  Make sure the guy is issued a trespass warning so he's subject to arrest.  If the property is already legally posted no warning is necessary. 

An off-tree ripening period of a week or less is ideal.

Mallika seems to need a week or more in order to lose the musky flavor (Dr Richard Campbell once said it tastes like "gym socks"). Fortunately, I don't mind the musky component. I'm still trying to figure the mallika out though. A good percentage of the fruits get some sort of internal cavity disorder, and the ones that are edible seem to vary quite a bit in terms of flavor.

When I say tree ripe, I dont mean you pick and its ready to eat.  Its more of a color change/maturity stage and still may take a couple or few days to be ready to eat (but certainly different than mature green).

Jeff, you also prefer that chalkiness and the acidic component, in some, or all(?), mangoes, that I say is more of that found from picking mature green.  Now, to be honest, some can be and even benefit, Mallika as one, if picked at the proper mature green stage (very hard to determine on a regular basis) but tbis is the outlier.

This all debatable however its a matter of choice to those eating (and thats where I say I have found more prefer them picked "tree ripe"), not what is right or wrong.

Not sure if I've just been lucky, I've never had a bad Mallika (or a bad Carrie) and I've had them from different sources.  Both have been very consistent for me.  As long as both are picked early/mature green & allowed to ripen to a full bright/dark orange color without going over ripe, all the ones I've had have been deserving of PIN's 5 star flavor rating.  It should be noted that it is a full flavored mango same as a Carrie.  My guess is people who don't like Carrie won't like Mallika as it's even stronger flavored than Carrie.  Both Mallika & Carrie are mango lovers mangoes.  It's not a mango for people who think a Glenn tastes too strong.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: My first mango tree
« on: August 07, 2018, 05:30:31 PM »
Your Carrie fruits mid-season there? It's normally early season in S. FL.

Here in 9B I don't start picking Carrie till early July and they haven't broken color yet.  Would rather wait till almost mid-July but usually have to take them early or the bushy tailed rats and other critters get most of them. We're generally about a month behind on most mango varieties compared to SE Florida Z/10.

In 15 years I've never had a peach or nectarines off my trees as the squirrels take every last one while still green.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Just had a perfect Little Gem mango
« on: August 07, 2018, 03:11:23 PM »
Little Gem is a highly precocious little gal isn't she?

Disclaimer:  This is based upon the sampling of ONE large green M-4 that I tried at various stages of ripeness over several days.  Some say the one I had was picked too green and wouldn't reach full flavor. It did reach a full enough flavor over a few days I think to reach an opinion on it.  I haven't had Coconut Cream, E-4 or many of the other Coconut flavored mangoes for comparison, but some say the M-4 is supposed to be the best of the lot.  I have had Pina Colada & Pickering and M-4 I think beats those in the "exotic" coconut profile category, though I have never detected coconut in those two varieties.

After some thought the best description I can give M-4 is it's like taking a tropical Coconut Life Saver & Pineapple Life Saver and popping them both in your mouth at the same time.  It's more unique & complex than that & that may not describe it exactly, but it's the closest analogy that comes to mind.  This is the mango that should be called Pina Colada - not the other one. This is a mango that would make for a great adult RUM smoothie served in a coconut shell, pineapple slice & cherry with tiny parasol, sugar cane swizzle stick & rainbow colored flex straw (sorry California).  This would make for a great ADULT frozen drink flavor to enjoy on a cruise or in the Keys at a cabana bar served by an sexy island girl in a coconut shell top, grass skirt, lei & with a flower behind each ear.   The overall flavor is that it is unique, juicy, semi-complicated, "transporting" and more like a coconut punch with the coconut playing a key but supporting role.  There is very little if any classic mango flavor or aroma.


1. Some say M-4 is a small mango.  Not sure this is accurate.  The one I received was fairly large 1 lb+
2. The M-4 was semi-soft on arrival so I thought it might be ready, it wasn't.  The initial sample wasn't bad, but it obviously hadn't peaked.
3. I continued to sample it each day till I finally finished it up just before writing this.
4. The coconut profile was the most pronounced I have tasted in a mango, but my experience with coconut profile mangoes is admittedly limited.
5. M-4 is a sweet, rich exotic & semi-complicated flavored mango.  Unless you have had something similar it may be hard to taste it "in your head" from just a description.
6. Words and thoughts I would use to describe it are exotic, tropical, Caribbean island flavor, "transporting", a good coconut bartenders drink mix, would DEFINITELY be better as a frozen smoothie with rum.
9. Very little if any aroma.  Possibly mildly fruity.
10. Very little if any traditional classic mango flavor.
11. Like many mango's the aftertaste stays with you for an hour or more.  That can be good or bad in M-4's case it's mostly good.
12. Some say coconut flavored mangoes won't develop their signature flavor after picked & won't improve on the counter.  This M-4 certainly improved over the course of a few days in both sweetness & signature flavor, tho probably not as good as it could have been as others have suggested.
For all the descriptive flowery words it's gets an overall "8".  This may very well be a "8.5 to 9" for one that was picked later.  Like PPK it gets a good score without having any classic mango flavor.  It gets a higher score for being unique & having it's own "personality". 
13. If I was looking to plant a mango with a coconut flavor profile M-4 would definitely have to be considered, tho not sure I would need an entire M-4 tree just for myself. 
14. This isn't a mango you would probably want to eat a bushel of at one sitting.  It's rich & filling - just one large one would probably satisfy your taste buds for a day or more. With that it mind it might be a good mango to mutli-graft with another variety if space is limited.
15. Shipping - I got this in just 2 days and it was already semi-soft on arrival.  I assume this was picked hard green, if so it may not ship well over longer distances or keep well once picked.

This is definitely a Mango that you need try for yourself and cross off your tasting "bucket list".  It's also one you need to try before deciding on which coconut flavored mango tree to buy & plant especially if space is limited.   For those living in SW Florida I saw that Fruitscapes on Pine Island had nice 3 gallon M-4 trees (and other newer Zill varieties) for $40.  But I would very much encourage your to taste an M-4 first, unless your tree space is plentiful.

Green Thumbs, Dry Powder & Tight Lines!!  : )     


Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: My first mango tree
« on: August 06, 2018, 09:58:27 PM »
Glenn is a great first tree and my favorite early.  For your next tree try a Carrie which is mid season.

A few weeks ago I brought home 3 M-4ís from Zill. All were solid green. I opened the first one that day as it was a bit soft. No good. Waited another 4-5 days till it was pretty soft and it was very special and different with undertones that stayed with me. It was the flavor of the inside of an Almond Joy.
For me the Sugarloaf is the most unique mango and should be right up there with Sweet Tart. Itís that shocking when you taste it. A dining adventure!!

Yep fooled me too.  The M-4 I had felt soft so I tried a small sample.  It obviously needed more time so I wrapped it up and been trying another sample each day.  There are some varieties that need more time on the counter than you think they do.  M-4 is probably one of them.  It does have a unique flavor.. 

OS no contest. PPK didnít even make the top 30 2018..... itís been a bad year

Really?  Chris at Truly Tropical sells 80 of the best varieties of Mangoes.  PPK is a top 5 seller for her every year (Carrie, Edward, Glenn & VP are the other 4). What people actually buy with their money is the best popular survey there is.     

Top selling does not make them the best.  Carrie is a huge seller in this area due to the large Indian population.

LMAO - Rob never misses an opportunity to trash Carrie.  He must have had forced by his evil step-mother to eat Carries as a child.  Nobody is saying you have to like Carries bro, just be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge that it is a very popular mango with the majority of mango lovers.  It doesn't need immigrants from Jamaica or Bombay to prop it up.  Carrie is still my personal favorite & the one tree I would have if I could only have one.  Carrie & Glenn are probably what nurseries recommend the most for backyard varieties.  When my neighbors beg me for mangoes - it's the Carries they want.  You're a smart guy & you know it's true.

OS no contest. PPK didnít even make the top 30 2018..... itís been a bad year

Really?  Chris at Truly Tropical sells 80 of the best varieties of Mangoes.  PPK is a top 5 seller for her every year (Carrie, Edward, Glenn & VP are the other 4). What people actually buy with their money is the best popular survey there is.     

So Alex, "Mounds" was written on the mango and also said "M4", was it actually M4 or E4?

M-4. I didnít write that.

Gees - chill out ladies. Who knew a simple typo would cause such a commotion.  The names on the mangoes were hard to see on camera so I rewrote them.  I think E-4 is called Sugarloaf after the white pineapple of the same name.  M-4 I thought Alex was calling it Mounds as a nickname, but apparently that referred to the E-4 also.   My mistake - not Squams.  Whatever you call it has an interesting flavor profile.  One person said the coconut flavored mangoes don't improve with flavor on the counter after picked........I'm NOT finding that to be the case.  The flavor on the M-4 is improving daily.  Sweeter & more pronounced coconut overtones the longer it sits.   

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