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Messages - SoCal2warm

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I will be conducting a specific test over this winter.
The below picture shows two Ichang papeda plants, one on trifoliate rootstock, the other rooted from a cutting on its own roots.

This side by side experiment should be interesting, because I specifically wanted to look at ichangensis and related hardy citrus to ichangensis, and specifically wanted to look at this behavior in zone 8.
Soon we should have a more sure answer whether ichangensis grows better on rootstock or not, when surviving cold climate conditions.
I can provide an update to the results of my test. (as of June 29, 2020)
It seems that both plants have done about equally as well. But the one growing on its own roots has much larger new leaves, in terms of size of the leaves. (I do not believe this is simply due to it getting a head start over the other)
However, they both appear equally vigorous, I would say. The one on the rootstock looks like it has the same energy as the other one, but it is holding back and pacing itself.

The older leaves (from last year prior to the winter) on both do not look very healthy. Still alive and slightly green, but more pale and yellowish.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: June 27, 2020, 02:34:31 PM »

The Bloomsweet is putting on some decent growth now, some big healthy looking leaves, and it seems to be recovering well.

small Ichang papeda seedling, the dark reddish new leaves have now turned green

Here's the small Yuzu seedling (on its own roots)

Changsha mandarin (on grafted rootstock, picture not shown) also is doing very well. planted in a sort of protected spot on south-facing side of house.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: June 17, 2020, 05:53:46 PM »
Ichang papeda seedling

June 17, 2020

The darker reddish leaves are the new growth the seedling has put out so far this year.
This little seedling is growing in the ground, outside, survived the winter here unprotected.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 17, 2020, 12:50:31 AM »
Sorry if I got kind of short with you. I was in a frustrated mood (not really about you, it involved a discussion in another forum).
And sorry for underestimating your knowledge of fruit tree growing.

I do get frustrated at people when they post something, but don't bother posting [what I feel are] the critical details.

For example, when people post a picture of something that is growing for them outside, but they don't say where they are, what climate zone, whether they protected it over the winter, etc, it's almost worthless for them to share that without the information.

I feel sorry for you you're having so much trouble. As you well know, your spot is probably not the most ideal for explorations into permaculture, as beautiful as the spot might otherwise be.

I don't want to get too far off-topic, but I've developed a theory that the reason the North American continent (north of Mexico) wasn't very populated was simply that so much of the climate is not very conducive to agriculture, for one reason of another. It was not until widescale irrigation much later, and all the technology that went along with that, that allowed crops to be grown in dry areas.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Ichang papeda available
« on: June 16, 2020, 05:52:23 PM »
It seems like no one care about the ichang papeda.
I think you may be right, from what I've noticed.

I can't understand it, but then again I love lemons, so maybe I am a bit personally biased.

I am working on breeding a seedless yuzu with better freeze tolerance using my seedless ichang papeda and yuzu. People might be interest more in seedless yuzu I guess.
That sounds interesting. Maybe you will get something that is a little bit more cold tolerant than regular yuzu. Maybe with a little bit of a different flavor too.

Be aware though that something like around 90% of the seeds in a Yuzu will be nucellar (i.e. clones of the parent yuzu fruit), so you will likely have to grow a lot of seedlings.
Maybe you can help prematurely identify hybrids among them by leaf shape, but then you will likely be throwing out some other good candidates as well.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 16, 2020, 04:03:04 PM »
Citradia, could you tell us where you got the fruit from? Were you able to see the parent tree that the fruit came from? Did the leaves on the parent tree look similar to that seedling, or did they look more like ichangensis leaves, with a very symmetrically sized leaf petiole?

That will help us determine what your seedling might actually be.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 16, 2020, 03:59:30 PM »
a flowering Ichang Papeda seedling in my backyard. A very tiny plant. Probably not a pure one.
I don't know, it is very hard to tell. The petioles in that picture look big enough that it just might be possible it could be pure ichangensis, but they also look significantly smaller enough that it really might not be.

If it is not pure, I would think it would probably have to be some ichangensis x ichangensis hybrid of some sort, maybe ichangensis x yuzu.

I grew several seedlings from ichangquat, and they displayed a variety of different leaf types, but none of them looked so close to ichangensis as that.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 15, 2020, 11:47:14 PM »
Sorry for the negativity, but Iíve had a bad day; Today I cut down eleven apricot, plum, and other trees that have underperformed for the past several years. Iím sick of plants Iíve put so much effort into that just donít work. Itís ironic that I get better quality and quantity fruit production out of my satsumas and grapefruit here in NC with winter protection than I get out of apples, peaches, plums. The only things that I get a harvest from here are grafted citrus, Montmorancy cherries, blueberries, and rowan, paw paw.
Not to get too off-topic, but it's the climate.
Ironically, the same reason why your citrus is able to put on so much growth during much of the year is likely the same reason why your apricot and plum trees do not do so well; it's the heat and humidity. Apricots tend to do much better in the drier Western half of the US. Where you are, I would imagine the trees would require a lot of spray to keep the disease level down, not to mention insect pests.

As for peaches, you're also a little too far north (on the East Coast) to get good consistent crops, since the blossoms are vulnerable to late spring freezes.

I would imagine persimmons would do well for you (although it might be beneficial to choose the slightly hardier varieties).

This link might be useful to you and gives a listing of late-blooming fruit varieties that can help avoid damage from spring frosts:

I was hoping for something slightly better than poncirus that could survive here without having to build a greenhouse around it
You are in climate zone 6b ! Not a lot in the citrus family is going to be able to survive there, unprotected. Have you tried US 852 ? That's about the only thing I can think of that's a little better than poncirus that may be able to survive for you.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 15, 2020, 09:36:52 PM »
I planted the seeds myself from an ichangensis fruit.
Sorry, Citradia, you're not really giving us enough details here.

The fruit, did it come from a plant you yourself were able to see? If so, how did the leaves on that parent plant look?

If itís a hybrid, oh well, itís not very cold hardy, so it can freeze to death again for all I care.
Citradia, you're in zone 6b. Many others in zones 7 to 8 might be interested in such a new hybrid, assuming it's not just Ichang lemon.
Which would again depend on details you have not given us.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 15, 2020, 08:58:30 PM »
The leaves shown in Citradia's picture look more like Ichang lemon than Ichang papeda.

Citradia, it's possible that may not be a real C. ichangensis, and if it did indeed come from a real ichangensis, maybe it got pollinated by something else and you may now have an interesting new hybrid.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 15, 2020, 08:40:58 PM »
The one I have has leaves that look similar to the one in Socal2warm' picture, but, as I noticed, young leaves has never had the dark purple color.
That could possibly be due to the climate here. Even as of June 15, the temperature in the middle of the day today (5:00) is still only 62 degrees (F).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 15, 2020, 07:05:33 PM »
I planted a 5 inch tall ichangensis, growing on its own roots (not grafted that is, grew it from a cutting), in Olympia, WA (zone 8a) and it survived through this winter.

Here is a picture of it now:

The dark reddish leaves are new growth.

(also it was not covered or protected)

You might notice that even though it is June, the new leaf growth is still red colored, since temperatures do not start rising enough for citrus to put out growth until fairly late in the year here.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Cold Hardy Citrus in Ga?
« on: June 07, 2020, 11:59:19 PM »
You might try Loch Laurel Nursery (in Valdosta). He mostly focuses on camellias but he has some hardy citrus as well, you could go ask him.

Citrus General Discussion / Quadrifoliate poncirus
« on: June 07, 2020, 11:25:01 PM »
An acquaintance posted this in another forum.

"Quadrifoliate" poncirus, poncirus leaves with four lobes instead of the normal three.

It's growing on a sucker.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: June 07, 2020, 04:12:42 PM »

The new leaves of the Bloomsweet have grown much bigger now, and there appears to be a new rapidly growing branch offshoot at the top.


Dunstan citrumelo

Both the Yuzu and Citrumelo are really taking off, lots of growth. They will probably get to be a very large bush size very soon.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: June 04, 2020, 08:13:53 PM »
Little Ichang papeda seedling putting out some new leaf growth, darker reddish color

seedling is only five inches high, growing on own roots, not grafted, survived in the ground through the winter

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Growing rare cold-hardy hybrid
« on: June 04, 2020, 08:06:11 PM »
Whatever it is, it's recovering and beginning to put out new leaves.

To the right in the picture, off to the side, you can see an Ichang Lemon for comparison.
Whatever this thing is, it definitely appears not to be as hardy as Yuzu, and less hardy than Ichang Lemon. But it does appear to have survived.

From the intermediate level of hardiness this demonstrated, I feel fairly confident the nursery did not simply make a mix up with some other common citrus variety, or another common hardy citrus variety.

I'm thinking this could have promise if it was crossed again with some other hardy variety.

Edit: On second thought, I'm not so sure. Even my Valencia Orange and Reinking pomelo seedlings, that were left out on the patio over the winter, are beginning to put out some new leaf growth.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Arctic Frost Satsuma Problem
« on: June 03, 2020, 02:19:35 PM »
The picture of the leaf with yellow veins indicates a possible nitrogen deficiency.
The plant may have overgrown the size of the container. You might need to move up to a larger container for more adequate root space.

Arctic Frost may be more sensitive because this particular variety is often sold growing on its own roots (a rarity for citrus).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: May 29, 2020, 02:14:05 PM »
Getting fruit to ripen is an additional hurdle to clear toward the goal developing edible cold-hardy Citrus. Developing acid cultivars should be considerably easier than sweet ones. In northern regions Summers are often either too cool, or too short to accumulate adequate sugars.
Well, the length of summer heat is certainly shorter than it is in other parts of the country, with the temperature being cool to cold throughout much of the year, but there certainly is plenty of heat here during the height of Summer. I feel like there are some unique factors going both for and against, in this climate.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: May 28, 2020, 09:17:23 PM »
The new leaves on the Bloomsweet are really putting on some growth.

The Yuzu, Changsha, and Dunstan citrumelo are really taking off.
It's 81 degrees (F) right now and humid, feels like a jungle.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: May 21, 2020, 08:17:48 PM »
Yuzu seedling, growing on own roots

growing very well now, lots of darker new leaves, and the old leaves look fairly healthy too.

May 21

Mangosteen generally has poor compatibility and will not survive very long on any other garcinia except Hombriana, as far as I am aware.
Even grafting can be difficult; approach grafting is the usual way to go.

There are other discussions about this, go look for them.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: May 15, 2020, 10:14:29 PM »
The Yuzu and Changsha (both grafted rootstock) are also both doing well and have sent out lots of new leaves.



May 15

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: May 15, 2020, 10:02:03 PM »
Bloomsweet, the new leaves are getting bigger, I really think it's going to do well this year

Ichangquat, old leaves greening up now, but I still don't see any new leaf growth. (seedling is growing on own roots)

Ichang papeda, small sized on own roots, slowly greening up, but I still would not say it looks like a healthy green color. you can't see it in the picture but this seedling is just beginning to put out new bud/leaflet growth. plant is 5 inches high

The other Ichang papeda on grafted rootstock and a little bit bigger in size (not pictured) is already beginning to send out new leaves, dark reddish in color.

tiny Keraji seedling, only 2 and a half inches tall, on own roots, it's an okay green color hue, hopefully it can start growing later and maybe recover. It still isn't quite as big as when it was planted 2 years ago, before it froze and died back to the ground that cold first cold winter. It wasn't protected this winter.

Dunstan citrumelo, it's doing well, held onto all its leaves through this winter, a little more than 2 and a half feet tall now.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: May 15, 2020, 09:09:19 PM »
Millet, I have a rooted cutting than I stuck in the ground to see if survives our long Arctic blasts on it's own roots.  Most citrus don't survive such events on their own roots when the ground freezes solid to a depth of 15 inches after two weeks when the temperature never rises above freezing.  Only Poncirus Trifoliata and its twisted sister Flying Dragon survive without a foot of mulch.   I'll post the outcome after the next Artic Outbreak.  It has easily survived our long wet winters without apparent root rot.
Well, jim VH, just a correction but as you know I'm two hours north of you and I've had several relatively small seedlings on their own roots that survived through this winter. (hardy citrus varieties that didn't have poncirus in their ancestry)
I'm thinking perhaps you refer to the colder winters that come along once every several years.
Because obviously I don't think I've ever experienced the ground freezing hard down to 15 inches where I am here.

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