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Messages - SoCal2warm

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How cold hardy Australian blood lime really is?
I don't know, but I remember doing some research (reading around) in the past, and Australian Desert Lime has probably about the same level of hardiness as Satsuma mandarin (if not slightly more so).

I've noticed that Poncirus hybrid seedlings are slower growing than other seedlings.

I've been growing a large number of different seedlings, so I think I can make this observation.
I've grown 2 seedlings from US 852 (Changsha mandarin x trifoliate), 3 seedlings from Tai-tri (taiwanica x trifoliate), 2 seedlings from N1tri (ichangensis x trifoliate), and without exception they have all seemed to grow very slow, certainly relative to other seedlings.
I've also been growing numerous seedlings from Ichangquat (kumquat x ichangensis) and a few cuttings from C. ichangensis. The Ichangquat grows very vigorously, even more vigorously than Yuzu, which also grows vigorously. The C. ichangensis cuttings have grown relatively slow, but reliably, with steady, healthy, and continuous growth. I do also have one seedling from Thomasville citrangequat, it has grown about as fast as kumquat, only about medium vigor. Unfortunately I don't have any pure trifoliate seedlings to compare to.

I think this should not be surprising. When two different plant species are hybridized together that are farther apart from each other in terms of relation, the result is often offspring with a slower growth rate and slightly stunted, or often with generally poorer health. It's presumably due to slight incompatibility between the genetic makeup of the two parents, since they are so distantly related (This is termed outbreeding depression )

Obviously Poncirus trifoliata is less related to the general citrus family than other citrus species are.

For comparison, taiwanica is vigorous and fast growing, and Changsha mandarin is a little slower growing but its growth is very reliable and healthy.
C. ichangensis is also slower growing (slower than Changsha mandarin) yet with very healthy reliable steady growth.
The trifoliate hybrid seedlings are all even slower growing than C. ichangensis, and do not have as healthy reliable robust growth.

What's interesting here is that since I am growing seedlings of hybrids, we are possibly getting to examine the effects in the F2 generation.
I believe some of these seedlings may not be nucellar.
I know citrangequat is said to always have nucellar seed, but my seedling (I harvested it from the fruit myself) seems to have mostly normal unifoliate leaves, with only two malformed bifoliate leaves, reminiscent that it has some trifoliate parentage in its ancestry.
Around half the Ichangquat seedlings appear to have obviously variable leaf morphology, so are almost certainly zygotic.

I do also have a Dimicelli cutting (probably either a citrandarin, F2 citrandarin seedling, or maybe second generation citrandarin cross with the tangor 'Temple Orange' , its exact origins are a little ambiguous) and it has been growing rather slowly, though with steady reliable growth.

The only trifoliate hybrid I have grown with vigorous robust growth is Duncan citrumelo (trifoliate x grapefruit) but even it is not as fast growing as grapefruit (in warm growing conditions).

I know this is hardly a controlled scientific study, but I believe with the number of seedlings I have been growing, this is strongly anecdotal, and this generalized observation may have value.

Maybe someone here (I am sure there are plenty) who has grown Poncirus seedlings can comment on how they grow compared to other citrus seedlings.

If Poncirus hybrids tend to be much slower growing, it may be of particular importance to try to select the most vigorous seedlings in hybridization attempts. I believe there is a strong correlation between level of vigor and ability to recover after cold damage.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: When to Plant in The Ground.
« on: August 15, 2019, 09:33:26 PM »
In the Pacific Northwest, I've found it's not good to plant them out in the ground until late May, despite weeks of warm temperatures that may begin much earlier in the year. I've tried transitioning out multiple hardy citrus plants into the ground in mid-March to April and it never ends well, the leaves turn yellowish after a few weeks and do not recover, even sometimes some die-back (despite temperatures always being well above freezing). I'm not sure whether the temperatures just get too cool for the plants to do well, or whether they have difficulty with the sudden transition from going inside a warm grow area to outside that early in the season.

With hardy gardenias on the other hand, I did plant them out in January, before the snow came, and they did just fine, even kept all their leaves. I planted them as soon as they arrived in a box from the mail order nursery. I don't know in what conditions the nursery had kept them. I had a different hardy gardenia that had been growing inside under warm grow conditions and then I moved it out during a warm week in the middle of March and it did not do so well, had a lot of die-back and leaf loss. So maybe it is the temperature transition that is harmful. Or it could have been that this variety was inherently less hardy than the variety of the other ones, so hard to say.

I suspect that as the plant grows, the plant tissue becomes adapted to the temperature conditions it grew in, and that it takes more than a few weeks for the plant tissue to be able to adjust to lower temperatures.

Hmm, interesting, I just checked on my little Kaffir lime seedlings and they don't seem to have very big petioles. I harvested them from the fruits myself.

Maybe these are actually some different type of Kaffir lime, or maybe the winged petioles are not apparent until later?

I am looking at pictures online and it looks like maybe small Kaffir lime leaves do not develop a symmetrical sized leaf petiole until later.
Their seedlings look a lot like mine.

A Vietnamese store near here is selling little plants of Kaffir lime, and they have the symmetric winged petioles. I've also bought fresh Kaffir lime leaves from them at the market.

The leaves look very similar. However, the smell of the leaves are very different. Ichang papeda has only a faint lightly lemony smell.

I happen to be growing both Kaffir lime seedlings and Ichang papeda cuttings.
Maybe Ichang papeda has longer thorns?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
« on: August 14, 2019, 11:42:48 AM »
US 852 (Changsha mandarin x trifoliate) seedlings.  Which trifoliate did you use?
Perhaps you misunderstand. The seedlings came from US 852.
So that would be the F2 generation.

In some ways that makes things more interesting. Sometimes recessive traits can get expressed in the second generation that did not get expressed in the first hybrid generation, or certain undesirable dominant traits can be eliminated. There's the potential for the F2 generation to inherit the best of both traits from both original parents that weren't possible in the F1 generation.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
« on: August 14, 2019, 10:47:37 AM »
Tai-Tri seedlings (taiwanica x trifoliate)

US 852 (Changsha mandarin x trifoliate) seedlings

N1tri (ichangensis x trifoliate) seedling

It has grown and finally looks healthy now, like it can start growing with more vigor.

This one I suspect could be a tetraploid seedling of Ichangquat, due to the slightly larger thicker leaves and dark green color.

If that's the case, it may be very useful for breeding future seedless hybrids.
(Any cross a tetraploid has with a normal seeded diploid variety will end up with a triploid seedless variety offspring)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: August 13, 2019, 10:24:57 PM »
The little Yuzu seedling has recovered to about the same size it was this time last year.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardiness of yuzu
« on: August 11, 2019, 02:05:56 AM »
I have a small Yuzu that survived the winter outside in the ground in the Pacific Northwest (Olympia, WA, zone 8a). It was a colder winter than normal, and I only covered it with a paper bag and put a gallon container of water under there during the coldest night when the temperature was forecasted to drop down to 12 F in the very early morning. The lowest I actually measured was 19 F in that spot, and that was about 3 and a half hours before it was supposed to drop to the low point, so it's very well possible it never actually reached anywhere near 12 degrees in that spot.
After that it got completely buried in snow for a week.
It survived, lost half its leaves, some of the top branches died back, and it suffered severe bark damage on the biggest main branch at the bottom. But in late July it started putting on a flush of growth. Amazingly the leaves from last year have turned a healthy green color again, the leaves recovered.

It's on the south-facing side of the house, in a sunny spot.

I also planted two Yuzu seedlings as an experiment. One, in a shadier spot, did not survive the winter. Another, planted in a garden in a downtown area, surrounded by a courtyard and in a sunny spot, managed to survive unprotected. It was killed back and all the branches died, only the little trunk was left. All the leaves fell off, except for one tiny little green leaflet caught between the two main upper branches, but even that eventually dropped off in June. The seedling was only 5 inches tall, got killed back to 2 inches. It now looks like it has recovered to about the size it was last year. It was unprotected, except for being buried in snow. I tried to give it a little water every few days during the dry season.

I have posted pictures of this in another thread.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold hardiness of yuzu
« on: August 10, 2019, 09:23:30 PM »
My prior research, reading things from different sources on different forums and the internet, led me to believe Yuzu is hardy down to approximately 10 F.
But it may suffer some light damage that low. And that's a larger plant, not a smaller size.

Thank Socal for your confirmation, but on one of your old post stated that citrus rooted cutting is not as cold tolerant as one grown from seeds.
I think you must have been misunderstanding what I stated.
I don't recall ever posting that.

many people claimed that citrus grown from seed is more cold tolerant than rooted cuttings. Isn't it true? Please confirm that for me.
The only time grown from seed would make a difference is if the seedling happened to get a better mix of genes making it cold hardier than the parent (majority of the time not the case) or if not being a different variety from the roots would make a difference. Being grafted onto a different type of rootstock always creates some small degree of incompatibility, typically resulting in slower growth and smaller size. So the issue there would not really be whether it was grown from seed, but whether it was grafted onto different rootstock or was growing on its own roots.

Whether the rootstock was grown from a rooted cutting or grown from seed probably does not make any difference.
The difference would be what variety it is, and whether the scion is grafted onto a different variety for rootstock.

Some nurseries use rooted cuttings and others grow their rootstock from seed. If grown from seed, the weaker seedlings will typically get discarded. Very unlikely to make a difference for the buyer.

  I don't think Atlanta winter would be worst than the winter in Tibet.
There are different elevations in Tibet. If Yuzu grows in that region, it would only be at the lower elevations. There are several different climate areas in Tibet, I don't think Yuzu would grow in the harsh climate area foreigners typically associate with Tibet.

Yes, but aren't they still considered a lemon. Didn't they all originate from the natural  or artificial hybridization of the citron.
No. Citron is a different species from Ichang papeda.
So although these are oftentimes referred to as "lemons", they are not true lemons.
If they resemble lemon, that is because the fruit of Ichang papeda resembles citron, but there are several aspects different as well.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Need zone 8a fig recommendations
« on: August 07, 2019, 07:16:25 PM »
In the Pacific Northwest (in the US) the two best varieties for the climate (zone 8a) are generally considered to be Desert King and Olympian.
I'm not sure if those varieties are available to you in Serbia, or if they might be sold under different names.

You will need the right variety that can ripen properly in your climate before the Winter.

I have no doubt delicious big figs can be grown where you are, you just need the right variety. It probably won't be the same varieties growing closer to the coast.

If I can make a suggestion, you might check out the Fig Forum at

There may be fig growers from Europe there who can point you to specific varieties appropriate for your area.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Seedlings
« on: August 07, 2019, 07:07:22 PM »
I have never cooked with Yuzu, so I cannot judge the taste in cooked dishes.  I have tasted Yuzu direct from the fruit, and it is terrible (at least to me).
Yuzu is not a fruit for out of hand eating.

That being said, I've picked Yuzu directly off the tree, to try eating the fruits, and the flavor was kind of good, not bad. I would definitely forage on the fruits in a survival situation, or a little bit on a nature trail hike.
I could even nibble on the peel a little bit and enjoy it, the peel was sort of borderline edible (in smaller amounts).
The fruits I picked were fresh off the tree and very ripe, so maybe that had something to do with it.

The segments inside were a bit dry, and extremely seedy, and the flavor is sour and not sweet, but other than that the flavor is good.

I can tell you the flavor is much better than Chinotto sour orange.
Certainly the flavor of a Yuzu fruit is nothing like the awful flavor of trifoliate hybrids.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: August 03, 2019, 12:00:35 AM »
little Keraji seedling that is still recovering but growing

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Seedlings
« on: August 02, 2019, 10:06:53 PM »
the large number of seeds were a dealbreaker for me
That is because Yuzu is not used like an orange, nor even exactly like a lemon. The fruits of Yuzu are more valued for their peel, not as much what's inside.

To use a Yuzu, simply slice into six pieces, and pull out the seeds (not difficult because they are so big), and then whatever you use the Yuzu for, use both the peel and inner pulp together. There's no reason to peel the fruit or separate the peel from the inner pulp.
You'll find the peel of Yuzu is more tender and less bitter than that of a normal lemon.

If you thought Yuzu is only valuable for the juice inside the inner pulp, you're going to be disappointed because there's not much juice. In part that's because there's so many large sized seeds that take up much of the space inside.

Of course Yuzu has a unique flavor that cannot be exactly replicated by other citrus.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Flying Dragon Seedlings
« on: July 30, 2019, 11:55:55 PM »
"Rootstock variety" typically means it doesn't taste very good and is only useful for rootstock, but that term is kind of relative since some of these varieties may be the only thing those in colder climates can grow (unprotected).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Crocston grapefruits
« on: July 30, 2019, 06:12:52 PM »
My little Bloomsweet barely managed to survive in the PNW, zone 8a, covered, and near the south facing side of a house.
Suffered severe bark damage, but actually managed to hold on to two leaves, which have since greened up a little bit but still look a bit yellowish and not healthy. Colder winter than usual and lots of snow.
I don't think it could have survived any more cold than it experienced.
It might have done better in the South (or Texas).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Flying Dragon Seedlings
« on: July 30, 2019, 04:36:39 PM »
Can someone explain zygote seedlings.
Zygotic seedlings mean they came about as a result of sexual recombination, and their creation required pollination, either from the same plant or a different one.

When only a single seedling sprouts from a seed, it's much more likely to be a zygotic seedling (in contrast to multiple seedlings sprouting from one seed, in which case only one or none of them are likely to be zygotic).
Zygotic seedlings can display phenotypes different from the parent it came from.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Seedlings
« on: July 30, 2019, 04:29:53 PM »
How true will Yuzu grow from seeds?
This is just from memory but I believe I read 90 to 98 percent of the seeds from Yuzu are nucellar, which means that they will be genetic clones of the parent.

Even if not an exact genetic clone, since Yuzu is a sour citrus the offspring is likely to be nearly identical to the parent, presuming the flower was not pollinated by some other variety of citrus in the area.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Seedlings
« on: July 30, 2019, 04:26:11 PM »
Here's a little Yuzu seedling that managed to survive the Winter here unprotected.

It was almost killed back, lost all its leaves, but managed to leaf out again beginning at the very end of May.
(Olympia, WA, zone 8a, in a sunny spot surrounded by a large garden courtyard, colder Winter than normal, certainly more snow than usual)
I originally grew it from seed from a fruit I picked while somewhere else.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 29, 2019, 07:25:09 PM »
The bigger Yuzu has put on a growth spurt

Here's the Bloomsweet

The leaves have greened up a bit, but still don't look like the healthiest dark hue of green.

The Ten Degree still doesn't really have any leaves on it, but is alive. There's a tiny little deformed twisted leaflet that doesn't look very good, and the very beginnings of a leaf bud on another branch. The branches look a healthy green, besides from the streaks of grey from the winter damage, and the dead branches. Several of the little branches are mostly grey, looking dead, but have some green on the outer tips.

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