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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: Today at 05:14:56 PM »
A lot of the weather in the PNW depends on which way the wind is blowing.

Most commonly the wind comes from the West.
This is because of the Westerlies, due to the Coriolis effect diverting North moving winds towards the West. Since Earth is spinning towards the East and since the regions closer towards the poles are moving at a slower speed than the equator, that means winds moving from closer near the equator towards further towards the poles will be deflected apparently geographically East. This has everything to do with the curvature of the Earth, since the distance between longitude is less as one moves higher in latitude.
When the wind is blowing from the West it brings moist cool air from over the ocean. This often means overcast skies.
 In the Summer it helps bring cool air. (And this cooling effect does not change between day and night)
In the Winter this cool air happens to still be warmer relative to what the temperatures would otherwise be, so it helps prevent the temperatures from going below freezing. All the moisture brought in by the air originating from the ocean also condenses into rain, mostly drizzle, helping to release more heat (since water vapor releases heat as it condenses into liquid). The overcast skies from all the cloud cover reflects back thermal radiation from the ground, acting as a sort of thermal blanket at night. All these effects help prevent the temperatures in Winter from dropping too low.

If the winds are blowing in from the Northeast during Winter, it can get very cold and there can be snow.

If the winds are blowing from the East during the Summer, it can get very hot, and there will be clear skies regardless of the season.

This is why most of the trees in this area are evergreen. Cool air coming in from the ocean means most of the rain is going to come when the temperature on land is colder than the cool air in the ocean, so that mostly means the Winter half of the year. During the Summer the needle-like leaves allow the cooler air to pass over them so they do not heat up too much in the sun which would cause excessive water losses to evaporation. Since the air is cooler and moving into a warmer area, it will not release any rain.

I would also check to make sure you don't have a problem with spider mites, which is a very common problem growing inside.

If you do, you will periodically bring them outside about every 3 weeks and thoroughly spray (including the undersides of the leaves) with a solution of spinosad and insecticidal soap. The first time you should spray, then spray again in 5 days, then spray once more 5 days after that, just to make sure you get them all initially.

The problems I'm experiencing are pretty much the same for all the trees - - leaves are looking bleached and mottled, nothing like the way a nitrogen deficiency looks,
Very likely due to excessively moist soil conditions.

In a container it can be very difficult to consistently maintain the soil moisture level in the right range. The soil cannot be allowed to completely dry out, but too much prolonged moisture will inevitably start leading to root rot, and symptoms will show up in the leaves.

It might also be possible you may have too much light, but I would think that unlikely.

I have no problem growing seedlings under LED lights. I use one "100 watt equivalent" (13 Watt) LED bulb for each 2 by 2 foot area, approximately. 5000K.

The ones in larger containers do not look as well, some leaf yellowing, though occasionally they'll put out outshoots of growth.

I feel probably the most optimal thing would be to mix red/blue LED with white LED.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: a few pictures from the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 20, 2019, 07:38:33 PM »
Here's a picture of a Changsha mandarin just planted outside

Only taking a picture of it now so I can show you what it looks like in three days after it goes through the stress of suddenly being moved outside with cold nights and sun.
It was previously inside a grow tent with fairly high levels of humidity, fairly stable temperatures and artificial light.

Previously I have discovered citrus, even cold hardy citrus, initially struggles to adapt from being moved inside to outside, even though daytime temperatures may still be warm and the nights, while cold, are still above freezing. I don't know if it's the cold temperature, change in light level, or maybe sun causing evaporation losses that the leaves are not adapted to.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
« on: March 20, 2019, 06:17:47 PM »
I made some micrografts onto Flying Dragon.
Ichangquat (top graft) and Keraji (bottom graft).

I'm not very good at grafting so I don't know if the tiny grafts will take.
I found the Flying Dragon at the local nursery, it was kind of expensive though.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Arctic Frost Satsuma experience
« on: March 20, 2019, 01:30:21 AM »
It appears the plant is now dead. It did not survive through the snow in February.
I believe this plant was own-root and it might have been different if it had been grafted onto trifoliate rootstock.

A regular Satsuma (on dwarf rootstock) did survive but it was covered. There were three gallon water containers under the cover but they never froze (I went out and checked on them during the coldest point in the Winter very early in the morning).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Pepsi To Add Yuzu To Its Drink
« on: March 19, 2019, 06:14:01 PM »
It's not so strange. One of the main flavor ingredients in Coca Cola formula is a special type of lime oil imported from India.

Temperate Fruit Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Wanted: Prunus Mume
« on: March 18, 2019, 05:11:18 PM »
Mainly for umeboshi and umeshu.
You might try Marukai market. If the one in San Diego doesn't have it, the one in Costa Mesa would have Choya Umeshu.

It has an intriguing deep flavor, like plum or apricot, a little bit deeply pungent like cough syrup, but overall it can be hard to enjoy more than a small amount continuously. More like an occasional delicacy, otherwise it's easy to grow sick of it, it's kind of borderline sickly sweet too.

The fruits in the bottom of the drink (preserved in alcohol) are very reminiscent of sour underripe apricots but with a little bit more flavor.

The pickled plums in a Japanese market also come from the same fruits, although they are salty.

Prunus mume is like a subspecies of apricot and is commonly used as an ornamental flowering tree. In fact "flowering plum" is more popular in China than flowering cherry is. The Prunus mume harvested for culinary use is closely related to the ornamental type, but is a special line of cultivars that were bred for their fruit. Using the fruits from the ornamental type of Prunus mume is probably possible but likely going to be inferior (fruit size/flavor) to the culinary type of Prunus mume, which can be very difficult to find outside of Japan.

I suspect that just using slightly underripe apricots is going to give a good approximation of what the culinary type of Prunus mume is like.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 18, 2019, 04:58:31 PM »
What about the daytime highs? Did it rise above freezing those days? Or did you have prolonged frost for several days?
The days remained constantly cold, only a little above freezing, but the temperatures did not dip below freezing for more than 4 or 5 hours at a time, and most of the time they were not that far below freezing.
I think the hardier citrus would have done perfectly fine if they had only gone through December and January, but it was the cold that came along with snow in February that caused damage.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 18, 2019, 03:06:11 PM »
What were your lows?
That's hard to say.

Just a couple of hours before the forecast called it was going down to 12 F, I measured 24 F right outside the doorstep.
The forecast said it would dip down to 12 F at 6:30 in the morning and I measured the temperature at 3:20 just before that.
I also later measured the temperature further out in the back yard at night a few days later and the temperature measurement was only 2 degrees higher than what the forecast stated it was at that exact time.

These Keraji seedlings were also covered with small clear plastic containers, and covered in some snow on top of that, so certainly there must have been a small insulating effect. On that night I also put large paper bags to cover them on top of that, with a gallon container of water inside each bag. (This was before it snowed further and the plants were completely buried)

So if I had to estimate, I would guess these plants probably did not experience a low below 16 F.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 18, 2019, 12:31:46 PM »
Here's the other Keraji

It's still covered. If it doesn't survive, it will be more due to lack of vigor rather than from obvious damage.

March 18

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 18, 2019, 11:39:00 AM »
It's possible their mother tree is immature, maybe grown from seed.
Very few nurseries grow from seed. Unless it's a very difficult to find variety and seed is the only thing they were able to obtain.
It takes a lot of effort, a different type of expertise, a special setup, and certainly more time to grow from seed.

However for me I've become very proficient at it, and for me it's much easier to grow from seed, especially since it takes up much less space and I can grow it inside.

FWIW, my grafted Yuzu from One Green World took six years before it bore fruit.
Interesting that your grafted Yuzu took 6 years to fruit in Vancouver, WA.
Or rather I should say informative.

I donated a Keraji to them, so hopefully that variety may be available at some point in the future.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
« on: March 18, 2019, 11:31:46 AM »
These are dunstan citrumelo seedlings from three different fruits.
I've read that Dunstan has much better taste than Swingle citrumelo.
My Dunstan is surviving outside, though has not fruited yet.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
« on: March 18, 2019, 02:36:51 AM »

From the research I've been able to find, I have been able to piece together that Keraji probably came about over time as a triple backcross of Kunenbo with Shikuwasa (that is being repeatedly crossed with Kunenbo).
Kunenbo is the male pollen parent of the well-known Satsuma mandarin variety, while Kunenbo itself is a large almost orange/tangelo-like mandarin that apparently has some pomelo ancestry in its lineage.

Keraji is quite cold-hardy, supposedly being able to survive down to perhaps 12 to 14 degrees Fahrenheit.
However, from my experience trying to grow the small seedlings outside (on their own roots) in zone 8a in the Pacific Northwest, I can report that they barely seemed to survive through a cold period with lots of snow that included what I believe was a low point of perhaps 16 degrees. Die-back on many of the small branches. (They would probably do better further South, and grafted onto trifoliate)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
« on: March 18, 2019, 01:28:02 AM »
Ichangquat, a little bigger now

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus tachibana
« on: March 17, 2019, 08:53:18 PM »
Is your Keraji growing outside unprotected?
You said you are in Bucharest, are you in the middle of a city or further out with open yard space?
How many years has it survived?

Your Yuzu was also unprotected in any way?
Is it near the wall of a home?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 17, 2019, 08:37:38 PM »
Yuzu might take 15 years to fruit from seed, a grafted tree would flower in less than 2 years.
I disagree. Yuzu has a somewhat dwarfed growing habit, so I would estimate it might take 7-14 years in this climate (assuming no protection, and not grafted).
Grafted tree might still take a bit longer than 3 or 4 years here.

That's just from instinctual knowledge and intuition though, not direct actual experience.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus tachibana
« on: March 17, 2019, 08:32:49 PM »
Pretty sure none of these are going to be hardier than Yuzu, so they're not going to survive in zone 7.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus tachibana
« on: March 17, 2019, 07:33:55 PM »
What about Citrus depressa? Not much information about its cold hardiness, native in southern japan and mountainous area in Taiwan.
A genetic study in Japan showed a close affinity between C. depressa (Shikuwasa) and C. tachibana, but it was not a direct parent-offspring relationship. Suffice to say they are probably related, and do not simply constitute separate species. C. depressa also showed a smaller degree of Yuzu or C. ichangensis ancestry.

It's really difficult to say exactly how these varieties might have originally came about.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus tachibana
« on: March 17, 2019, 03:41:34 PM »
How cold hardy is Changsha?
Supposedly maybe 10 degrees F, but probably more like 11.
Keep in mind that's that absolute minimum it is capable of surviving, it may not do well down to that temperature. In the South it will be able to recover better than somewhere further North.

Citrus General Discussion / want to be involved in citrus project?
« on: March 17, 2019, 02:10:54 AM »
Hi there. I am wondering if you'd possibly like to work with me to hybridize new cold hardy citrus varieties.
I'd just send you plants and tell you what to do.
You would grow the plants, pollinate flowers, label branches, and harvest seeds from the fruit. Then I would grow the seeds and eventually send them back to you to grow again. I don't know how much land you have.

Contact back if interested, and if so send me your address.
(There would be no exchange money, just looking for someone in a warmer climate who can more easily grow them and is interested in that) it would likely be a long-term project, maybe 3 or 4 years.

I know someone else in Kansas who would probably be interested too. We just tell you what to do, you do it and give reports maybe every so often. I'm working on breeding solid zone 8a varieties, the guy in Kansas is trying for 7a, though they probably may not taste as good.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus tachibana
« on: March 16, 2019, 08:17:33 PM »
This is just from memory, the impression I got from reading about it in some research, it's a very close relative of C. reticula (mandarin) but more like a wild mandarin cousin. The flavor is probably a bit more bland, less sweet, and definitely inferior to a normal mandarin, but not distasteful.

C. tachibana has apparently been used in the past to breed several other native Japanese citrus varieties. It is the only citrus species believed to have been native to the islands of Japan.

It has moderate fairly good tolerance and apparently is quite accustomed to the growing conditions in Japan. (Which probably means its native climate is zone 9 but it can also survive zone 8, possibly with a bit of difficulty further north.
It's probably adapted to a somewhat cooler maritime climate than typical citrus.

You can take that for whatever it's worth. (Just some rough information in case you cannot find a better accurate source)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus tachibana
« on: March 16, 2019, 06:42:04 PM »
It's probably close to Changsha mandarin in terms of edibility, though a bit more sour.

It looks like it's dead

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: March 16, 2019, 02:26:03 PM »
and placed them out in the sun for several hours this week. This helps toughen them up as well as green up the foliage.
I agree that placing them out in the sun for temporary periods of time helps toughen them up, since they have become accustomed to growing in indoor conditions.
However, last year I took the seedlings outside in early March and they could not handle the sudden transition. I don't know if it was the full sun exposure or the cold night temperatures. Even fairly cold hardy varieties like Yuzu, Keraji, and Changsha mandarin had their leaves turn yellow or become blotchy white and pale. I am talking about constantly cool/cold temperatures that never went below freezing.
The seedlings grow very well and fast in the special indoor growing conditions I have, but I think they adapt to the artificial lighting, high humidity and constant warmth. Those plant tissues that have grown under those conditions do not seem to handle being outside well.

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