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Messages - jim VH

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Changsha mandarin opinions
« on: Today at 03:22:39 PM »
Thanks Millet.  One consequence of reposting the earlier post was it got me thinking about some of the things I'd noticed, suggesting future avenues to explore.  So, maybe losing the earlier post was a good thing. 

Poncirsguy, At -12F the Changsha- and any other non-hybridized citrus- would be dead dead dead without protection.  In fact, I suspect any Poncirus hybrid would be as well, though I wonder about the Prague Citsuma, being a Chimera and all.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Changsha mandarin opinions
« on: Today at 09:45:16 AM »
This is a repost of one I made January 9th, and which apparently was lost when Go Daddy rehosted the web site. 
This time, I'll save the post so it doesn't get lost again.  For some reason the images get stuck at the end of the post, rather than at the desired locations.

The post is about the  Changsha tangerine I grew from seed.  Originally there were 36 seeds graciously supplied
by Stan McKenzie.  24  of the seeds produced viable offspring, which were placed in one gallon pots in the ground
and left unprotected as 1 year seedlings in 2008 in order to winnow out the less cold hardy plants and ultimately
obtain the hardiest seedling of the 24.

In December of 2008 we had an Arctic event where the temperature briefly rose above freezing only once during a
180 hour period and the nightime low dropped as low as 15F (-9.4C)  20 of the seedlings perished during that

In December of 2009 the remaining four seedlings experienced an Arctic event where the temperature never rose
above freezing for 114 hours and there were four nightime lows between 10F-12F (-12.2C to -11.1C).  Only one
seedling survived that event.  That seedling was subsequently grafted onto a Flying Dragon rootstock, and both the
original seedling and the graft were placed in the ground.  Also placed in the ground was a random Changsha
grafted onto a PT rootstock.  Both grafted Changshas were protected until they came of a good size.

In 2013 there were two Arctic events.  The first in early December with a low of 10.5F (-11.9C) and 117 consecutive
hours where the temperature never rose above freezing.  The second in early February was short, but had temperatures 
that ranged between 18F (-7.8C) and 22F (-5.6C) for 36 consecutive hours. The original Changsha on it's own roots
perished that winter because it was not dormant in early December, due to a preceding warm November.  The sap froze,
the bark split and it bled to death come spring. The two grafted Changsha were still being protected at that time.

Finally, in January 2017  both now unprotected grafted Changsha experienced an Arctic event where the temperature
stayed below freezing for 316 hours except for a twelve hour break mid freeze when the temperature rose to 35F (1.7C)
During that event there were four nights with low temperatures between 12.5F and 16.1F (-10.8C to 8.8C) and one night
where the low was 8F (-13.3C).  The nearby Pearson Airport recorded an official temperature of 6F (-14.4C) that night.
My seed grown Changsha sailed through that even virtually undamaged; In fact, it had less damage than the Yuzu and
Sudachi and only slightly more damage than the Morton Citrange.  The random Changsha on PT rootstock completely died
with no grow-back- the PT rootstock itself was undamaged.

It appears that I've successfully selected for a hardier Changsha, with one caveat.  As seen in the picture below, my
Changsha is only six feet away from the NW corner of my cottage, and there are two 55 gallon rainbarrels next to it.
While the rainbarrels had frozen solid by the time the 8F night arrived, the combination of house and barrels may have
locally modified the temperature.

The grafted tree had its first large fruit along with half a dozen pithballs in 2019, twelve years after the seedling
sprouted.  It's possible that grafting delayed the fruiting by a year or two.  This year there were 23 full sized fruit
two of which were shared with board members at different times.  The first one was shared in mid-November and was very
juicy with a very good bright spritely tangerine flavor.  The peel removed easily and had an aroma reminiscent of
Marijuana (how do I know that?) or, more properly said, some kinds of Marijuana smells like the peel.  The second fruit
was shared with SoCal about a month later and is described in his post above.  It had lost some of its juice by then.
The remainder of the fruit were harvested in early January, at which point they were quite dry and had lost most of their
flavor and 'zing'.  Some of these fruit are shown below with a ruler.

Because they had lost so much juice, it took eleven fruit to obtain the 90 ml of juice needed to measure the Brix level
using a calibrated hygrometer.  15 ml of that juice was then titrated using 0.2N NaOh solution to obtain an acid level.
The results:

Sugar to acid ratio (S/A)=13.37
There were 102 seeds in the eleven fruit, an average of just over 9 seeds per fruit.  Some had more, a couple were seedless.
This is a higher S/A level than any of my Satsumas, but then, the acid level is substantially lower than any of my citrus.

I drank the remaining 75 ml of juice.  It was quite bland and insipid, likely due to the low acid level.  It reminded me
somewhat of the texture and blandness of apricot juice, but with a mild tangerine flavor.

In retrospect, I made a mistake by waiting so long to harvest the fruit.  Changsha's, it seems, do not hold well on the tree
unlike my Satsumas and Ichandrins.

Some additional takeaways from this 13 year experiment.

It's possible to grow some Changsha without protection in zone 8a in the American Pacific Northwest, at least in sheltered
At least in SW Washington and the Williamette valley Changsha ripens early enough for quality fruit.  This actually surprised
me.  I knew that Changsha's were earlier than Owari, but I didn't expect them to be that much earlier.  Owari does not reach full size or maturity  in the PNW

While I think my Changsha is hardier than average, the proximity to my cottage cast uncertainty on that.  Therefore, this
year I plan to graft it onto my two available rootstocks, then put them out in more exposed location; Protecting them until
They become large enough to withstand Arctic events- two or three years of protection typically.  If they survive, this will
confirm my suspicion.

In response to a comment made the first time I posted this- a comment also deleted by Go Daddy- I do indeed plan to plant the
seeds I get from this years crop, then perform a mass selection to attempt to obtain an even hardier Changsha.  Horrible
things will be done with a freezer in a first cull, rather than waiting for an Arctic blast.  I'm brutal-you betcha I am.

I was surprised how low the seed count was.  I remember reading that Changshas more typically have 20-30 seeds per fruit.  It's
possible that it's the plant, but actually I think it was a pollination issue.  This year was rather cold and wet during bloom
time, which probably hindered the bees.  Several other of my citrus also had lower than usual seed counts.   In fact, it may be
that the copius number of sugar ants that suck the nectar may play a minor role in pollination,  This raises an interesting
possibility which I may explore this coming summer.

Finally next season I plan to start sampling the fruit when the peels just start to turn color.  This usually happens with the
advent of cool nights around mid-October here in Vancouver WA., though that varies from year to year.  Hopefully this will
aid in determining when to harvest for best flavor.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Changsha mandarin opinions
« on: January 11, 2021, 03:21:15 PM »
Thanks Millet.  I guess I'll retype it this weekend when I have time, then save the text in case it happens again.

I would also be interested in what crosses you've had; I may try a few myself.  The few zygotic offspring are what's interesting to me in terms of further improving cold hardiness, as well as hybridization.  But, how do you tell them apart from the nucellar, if there are no hybrids?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Changsha mandarin opinions
« on: January 10, 2021, 03:17:17 PM »
What happened to the post I made yesterday?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Kabosu
« on: December 23, 2020, 10:00:57 AM »
Hi Ilya11,

No, I think the yellowing of the older leaves in the winter seems to be a general feature of the climate here; Pretty much all the citrus at my place do that to one degree or another.  Some, like Satsumas don't have quite so much.  Others, like seem to have it more.  The Kabosu is about in the middle. 
The effect is more profound when the tree has a heavy fruit load.  In that case even the newer leaves can yellow up in the winter to a lesser degree.  Come spring, the newer leaves green up again and the older ones fall off.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Kabosu
« on: December 22, 2020, 10:18:28 AM »
Kabosu is one of the three citrus commonly used by the Japanese to create Ponzu sauce, along with Yuzu and Sudachi.  Kabosu is said to be closely related to Yuzu.  The Yuzu is quite hardy in the Portland Metropolitan area, easily surviving freeze in January 2017 where the temperature dropped down to 8F (-13.3C) and the temperature never rose above freezing for 14 days.  Because of the close relation I was wondering if the Kabosu was also as hardy, but was unable to find any definitive  information.

So, a few years ago I found a Kabosu at Mckenzie farms.  It was, unfortunately, on a Citrange rootstock  These rootstocks do not survive the extended freezes here in the Portland area, and in fact the rootstock did die in January 2017.   Before the rootstock died, however, The top looked pretty good, with little defoliation and no obvious damage.  This gives hope for it's hardiness.

Fortunately, with foresight, before that freeze, I grafted the Kabosu onto a Poncirus Trifoliate (PT ) rootstock and put it in the ground and it is now about 4 feet tall.

This is also the first year with a significant crop of fruit, 22 in total.  Three were given away, the remaining 19 weighed a bit over 4 lbs (1.8 Kilos).  Segments of the fruit are surprisingly sweet, given that it is an acid fruit.  About grapefruit sweet, without the grapefruit bitter.  The flavor is milder than a Yuzu without the slight 'skunk' that some people find offensive.  It would make a good Meyers lemon substitute, with some extra overtones that- not being a gastronomical expert- I won't attempt to describe.  The fruit also appear to be larger on average than the Yuzu, as shown in the image.  From left to right below are

Kabosu   Yuzu  Sudachi

The fruit are surprisingly seedless, with only two fruit out of the 19 having seeds for a total of six.  Shown below are a few of the fruit and a ruler, with three cut open.  For comparison, at the bottom are also a cut open Yuzu and Sudachi.

The fruit were then converted to marmalade, a process which involves separating out the juice, membranes and peels.  I took advantage of this by measuring the Brix level of the juice with a calibrated wine testing hygrometer and the acid level by titrating 15 ml of the juice with a o.2N NaOh solution.  The results are :

           Brix:  10.2%
           Acid level: 4.3%
           Sugar to Acid ratio:  2.37

When I sampled the juice I found it quite sour, which made me wonder why a fruit segment tasted so sweet.  So I sampled some of the chopped up membranes and found them quite sweet, with surprisingly little bitterness compared to most citrus, including the Yuzu and Sudachi.  I then sampled the chopped up peel and found it also relatively sweet and low bitter, though not quite as sweet as a Kumquat.

It made four pints (4 lbs.-"a pints a pound the world around") of very good marmalade, which tastes like lemon pie..  The nice thing about marmalade is that there is very little wastage. 

So now I wait for the next arctic blast to test the hardiness.  A significant freeze typically comes along every three-four years here, so we're about due.  But of course, they don't come along on demand, unless you can borrow a very large freezer, so it may be a while to know for sure.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Identify this fruit?
« on: December 16, 2020, 11:10:03 AM »
I do believe you are correct that it is a Morton.  I did an image search a  few days ago and the Morton images were the only ones that showed the ridging that characterizes this fruit.

That's an interesting comment about foreign pollination.  Last year the Citranges were full of seeds- I sent some to a person in Southern Oregon. This year apparently not so much.  According to my log book, the difference may be that this year man of my citrus had far fewer blooms than the year prior, and the three citrus closest to the Citrange had almost no blooms at all.  Combine this with the fact that the Citrange blooms a couple weeks earlier than most of the rest of my citrus, so the bloom seasons only partially overlap.  Then combine that with the fact that the overlap period was unusually cold and wet this year, suppressing the number of bees out and about, and that could explain the relative seedlessness Sunmicroman observes.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Identify this fruit?
« on: December 12, 2020, 10:04:35 AM »
I would like to thank all of you for your detailed expertise on this matter.

I'd been laboring under the misapprehension that this was a citrumelo, but now I'm convinced it was a mislabeled citrange.  One Green World did not have citranges for sale at the time I bought this, but they likely had a specimen plant in back, since -according to Sunmicroman-they used to sell Troyer Citranges at a time when the were called Northridge nursery.  Now it's only a matter of determining which Citrange it is.

The ribbing is one of the notable features of this fruit, so I chose a specimen with the most striking striations.  Also, the color is even more orange than shown in the picture- the camera washed it out a bit in the light setting used.  Also, there is usually a higher seed count than seems to be observed this year.  Perhaps the cold wet weather that occurred during this last summers bloom time had something to do with it; Possibly reducing the number of pollinators.

The flavor appears to be a like it or hate it.  I, Socal and my sister appear to detest it, but Sunmicroman and my nephew like it .  Perhaps it has something to do with the supertaster phenomenon. 

Again, I appreciate all of you input.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Identify this fruit?
« on: December 11, 2020, 11:26:42 AM »
I bought the plant this fruit is from about 12 years ago from One Green World Nursery.  It was labeled Citrumelo, but when I asked which variety, they didn't know.  It's clearly not a Swingle- Swingle's are shaped like hand grenades.  One person who tasted it without flinching thinks it might be a misidentified Troyer Citrange.  Myself- I don't know.  I find the presumably Trifoliate flavor to be so nasty that it tends to block out any other flavors for me, and I willingly eat fruit straight from my Flying Dragon bush without flinching.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: December 07, 2020, 11:02:49 AM »
That 7cm fruit was a real outlier; the 4-5cm fruits shown in the photo are more typical, with quite a scattering of smaller ones.  I wish I'd taken a picture of the big one.
I have an apple tree called Spartan that does something similar.  One year I got an apple  that weighed very nearly a  pound, whereas 2-3 fruit per pound is more typical.  Why that happens is a mystery to me.

The seedless ones tend to be the small one, though I did get a couple largeish ones that were seedless.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: October 29, 2020, 11:25:50 AM »
As requested last spring, here are a few of the observations from this years crop of 'Dragonballs'

Fruit on the tree about early October:

Enough ripe fruit to flavor a batch of Apple quince sauce were then picked up off the ground and cut open alongside a ruler.  These are typical.  The seed count is relatively low, some are even seedless.  The largest one I've found ( not shown here) was about seven cm-somewhat less than 3 inches.

The juice was then hand squeezed :

Then diluted about 3 or 4 to one:

Then allowed to sit for twelve hours to settle the solids:

It was then boiled to kill yeast and vinegar bacteria, then added to the sauce of seven quinces:

combined with an equal amount of applesauce and canned:

Producing about 3 quarts ( somewhat less than three liters) for those who like this sort of thing:

I'm the one on the right.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: May 16, 2020, 11:02:35 AM »
Socal, if you read what I said, I was referring to long arctic blasts, not the warm winters like the past two.  Those long arctic blasts with temperatures of 10-12F or below come along every three to five years.  The last one was January 2017 in the Portland area, an east wind Columbia gorge event when it hit 8F (-13.3C) in Vancouver and the temperature never rose above freezing for a two week period.  Every citrus on own roots  or rootstocks other than PT or FD died in that event, with the exception of a Citrangequat which had the equivalent of a foot of mulch.  The Puget Sound area  was warmer during that event, as I recall

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: May 15, 2020, 11:25:18 AM »

That was a good catch.  I hadn't really paid much attention to the petiolesbefore, but this morning I went took a gander at them.  There appears to be a mixture of narrower and wider petioles:

Whether that mixture has always been true, or is just this years fashion statement is indeterminate.  This year, for some reason, most of the leaves fell off; such few older leaves that remain seem to have narrower petioles.  It was a mild winter.

I suspect that the ichandrinlike appearance is a bit of an illusion.  My flying dragon also has relatively wide petioles:

combine that with the fact that  this year the Prague Citsuma has decided to sport long narrow willow-like primary lobes gives it an Ichang-like appearance.

The Prague Citsuma is just plain weird- every year an adventure.  For instance, for many years it had long wicked thorns.  Then last year it apparently decided that thorns were out of style and all new growth was thornless.  This year it appears that thorns are trendy again, along with willowlike leaves.

Millet, I have a rooted cutting than I stuck in the ground to see if survives our long Arctic blasts on it's own roots.  Most citrus don't survive such events on their own roots when the ground freezes solid to a depth of 15 inches after two weeks when the temperature never rises above freezing.  Only Poncirus Trifoliata and its twisted sister Flying Dragon survive without a foot of mulch.   I'll post the outcome after the next Artic Outbreak.  It has easily survived our long wet winters without apparent root rot.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: May 11, 2020, 11:31:07 AM »
My Prague Citsuma is a couple weeks into  it's bloom; the second heavy bloom in a row.  Last years bloom set; hopefully this year's will as well.

An interesting mixture of partially formed incomplete blooms and fully formed complete blooms.

A couple minor clarifications to what SoCal posted

The Kabosu fruit is about the size and color of the fruit of the  Yuzu, which in turn is yellow and roughly Satsuma size .  The flavor is much better, and has far fewer seeds than the Yuzu.  It's sweetness is roughly the level of a grapefruit, which means you can eat it out of hand if you're sufficiently demented, though, like a grapefruit, a bit of sugar helps.

I replaced the Early St Anne -which was on a citrange rootstock-with one I grafted onto a Flying Dragon rootstock, mainly because it was outgrowing it's shelter; it was getting quite large.  I will continue to protect it- the fruit is quite good.  The FD rootstock also has the advantage of earlier ripening, so probably more sweetness.
The old one would almost certainly have bloomed- the winter low was only 25F (-3.9C) and it showed no damage.  I've exposed Satsumas to even lower temperatures for short periods with no effect on blooming.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 16, 2020, 11:35:36 AM »
Temperature is very microclimate dependent.  Many times Olympia is colder than Portland, and vice versa, depending on how the arctic air sets up.  The Columbia River gorge has a huge local influence, and can allow cold dry continental air into the Portland area at a time when the rest of the west of the Cascades remains more influenced by the Pacific. The Frasier river gorge has a similar influence in Vancouver B. C.

That was a good suggestion you made, leaving till spring before I replaced it with a dwarfed version.  t showed no damage 'cept to a couple late growth flushes.  It also showed no yellowing at all, apart from the old inner leaves, which always turn various shades of yellow prior to spring drop.  This is something I've noticed over the last 13 years, most unprotected citrus show various degrees of yellowing during the winter, except well-fertilized Satsumas and Mandarins.   Protected citrus with overhead shelter show little or no yellowing.  I'm not sure Whether or not it's because overhead protection wards off cold, sunlight, or just keeps the roots dry .

The yellowest citrus I have are, in order: the large Thomasville Citrangequat on FD rootstock, the small Yuzu on FD rootstock I recently grafted from a seedling, the small Sudachi on FD rootstock,  and a Thomasville Citrangequat seedling on it's own roots. 

The greenest unprotected Citrus from greenest to least green:  Early St. Anne on Citrange rootstock, Changshaa tangerine on FD rootstock, Dunstan Citrumelo on FD rootstock and Kabosu on PT rootstock.

There are  a few other citruses Intermediate between the above.  They'll all green up again with the return of warmer drier weather.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 14, 2020, 02:05:19 PM »
Meanwhile, in Vancouver Wa.

About an inch and a half of snow on the Yuzu and all the other citrus as well.  I took down all the protection in mid-February.  I doubt it will hurt anything; It will be all melted by early afternoon.  It was the second warmest winter on record.  The lowest temperature was 25F (-3.9C) just before Halloween; ironically tying the record low temperature for the month of October.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: What is flowering now for you?
« on: March 12, 2020, 10:56:42 AM »
Zero zip nada.

The Flying Dragon might bloom in a week or so.  The Prague Citsuma maybe in late April.  The rest, not until May.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: February 20, 2020, 11:08:02 AM »
Hi Ilya,

The small shrub to the left of the FD is a Myrtus Ugni, AKA Ugni Molina, AKA Chilean Guava. 
I suspect you meant the large shrub to the right.  It is a Louis Edmund Manzanita.  Species name is Arctostaphylos.

Off topic horticultural note: Manzanitas are native to western North America, ranging from Southern British Columbia south down the coast to California, then east to Texas.  Very drought tolerant, with many cultivars.  Related to the much larger Madrone tree- species name Arbutis- a native of the coast of British Columbia , Washington, Oregon and northern California.  Both species have smooth colorful bark and evergreen leaves.

Bomand, I hear you, but my plant is more like an espalier, severely pruned to a narrow shape in the front and back, but allowed to grow on the sides.  Plenty of blooms,fruit of all sizes and seedinesses.  There is something in what you say, however.  I've noticed fruit size appears to be stratified in size from top to bottom, with the largest fruit on the top and the smallest on the bottom.  Fruit size also appears to be getting larger year over year as the tree grows.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: February 19, 2020, 11:07:37 AM »

My informal observation while cutting 'em up for juice is that fruit size and seed count are correlated.  The more seeds, the larger the fruit, which kinda makes sense.  The fruit from mine range from about 3 to 4 cm and very seedy to perhaps 1.5 cm and few or no seeds.  Next fall I'll arrange a few along a ruler to display the range, then cut them open to show the seed content, as in the photos from the posters above.

Cold springs tend to keep the pollinators at home, which may explain the fewer seeds.  The flowers are not very attractive to bees- I've never seen a honeybee on them, unlike the other citrus.  I'm not sure what pollinates; Possibly ants, which seem to collect nectar from the blooms.

I suspect part of the reason mine is so upright is because I prune it severely to keep it confined to the narrow space between the house and the walkway in front.  Elsewise I'd be gored by the thorns when I go by.  That probably forces it upwards.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: February 18, 2020, 12:32:20 PM »
Actually, the original Flying Dragon seedling came from One Green World nursery in Oregon; the seedlings I gave SoCal were grown from the fruit of this tree, just to the left of the small window.

Planted in 2007, it's about 8-9 feet tall.   Interestingly-or not- the top third of the tree has become thornless, while the bottom 2/3 is wicked curved thorns.

Taste is subjective. I tend to describe mine as tasting like Vicks medicated lemon cough drops, but pine is probably close enough to menthol as to be interchangeable.  Either way, the powerful lemon flavor is by far the dominant one.   As Socal reports, I detect no bitterness, unlike my Dunstan citrumelo, which is just plain nasty.  It's quite sour.

 I actually enjoy the flavor, though I wouldn't eat a lot straight from the plant , unless you need to wake up in the morning.  It does have it's uses, however.  My nephews make a killer mixed drink from the juice, and I find that adding the strained juice of a dozen  or so fruits per gallon of my apple-quince sauce enhances the flavor in a good way.

Given all I've read about how awful trifoliate flavor was, I was wondering if it was special, but after reading the above posts, it doesn't seem to be unique in any way.  It appears that there is a vast continuum of edibility between seedlings; mine possibly lies towards the upper end of the edibility range.

There's quite a range of fruit sizes; the larger ones are full of seeds but some of the smallest ones are seedless, or nearly so.  Next fall crop I can do a sediment test like some of the above posters and see how the juice compares.  I can also measure Brix and acid levels and post them.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: January 17, 2020, 11:04:25 AM »
Hi Florian

It's bloomed for a couple years, but this is the first year it's set fruit.  Unlike earlier blooms, this year was a very heavy bloom, and it took place over a very long time; Starting on May 5th and ending on June 30th- nearly two months.  All my other citrus typically bloom within a 2-3 week period in mid-May or so, save the Flying Dragon, which blooms in March.  The extended bloom time probably accounts for at least part of the wide variation in size, and also sourness.

Also, the Brix numbers for the Prague Citsuma:

Brix= 11.8  Tartaric Acid= 2.8% and the sugar to acid ratio is 4.2.  This is rather on the sour side, thoug individual fruit are much sweeteer.  This is an average over a number of fruit- some are much sweeter and some are sourer.

For comparison, the Satsumas have sugar to acid ratios of 7.3 and 9.0

This was a rather cool summer; Warmer summers may produce sweeter fruit

Brix and acid readings taken January 15th 2020 from a few citrus grown in-ground at my location in the Portland Oregon metropolitan area:

Prague Citsuma    Brix=11.8     acid=2.8%     sugar to acid ratio S/A=4.2

LA Early Satsuma  Brix=10.3    acid=1.4%       S/A=7.3

Miho Satsuma       Brix=13.5    acid=1.5%       S/A=9.0

The LA Early number is lower than the one I got two years ago, but it was also the coolest summer in a decade, with a delayed bloom season, and a cool September.  It's still a good fruit, with a few more sour ones.

The Prague Citsuma is sour, but has good flavor, and some of the fruit are sweetish

The Miho is fantastic, very richly flavored, and is the best Satsuma I've tried to date for the cool climate of the  American Pacific Northwest. 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citsuma Prague
« on: January 15, 2020, 03:53:49 PM »
Thank you Socal, for posting that image of my tree. 
I harvested the fruit on that in mid-November.  About 6 lbs.  They range in size from sub-ping-pong ball to medium size Satsuma.  The flavor is good, but rather sour.  Ripeness varies considerably.  The ripest ones have 'squishy' peels and peel rather easily, though not so easily as Satsumas.  Since snow flurries are occurring, I think I'll stay indoors and use the time to do a Brix and Acid level reading this afternoon, using the smaller ones.

I apologize for the blurriness of the image, but I ain't no photographer.  The fruit above the ruler are some of the Citsumas; I've eaten the largest few, and juiced a few others for a Chinese dish.  The three fruit on the bottom of the image are typical LA Early Satsumas, to provide scale, along with the blurry ruler.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: some pictures from Jim's place in Vancouver, WA
« on: October 16, 2019, 11:38:37 AM »
I actually haven't tested the Citsuma in my area yet, though the result of other posters suggest it should be quite hardy.

The ones I've tested that survived 8F (-13.3C) and two solid weeks where the temperature never rose above freezing are: Yuzu, Sudachi, Thomasville Citrangequat, Citrumelo and Changsha Tangerine.  All were on Flying Dragon or Poncirus Trifoliate rootstock.  No other rootstock, nor any citrus on it's own roots has survived the ground freezing solid to a depth of 15 inches during the two week freeze.

Satsuma's are only hardy to about 20F in this climate.   I do grow some of the earlier ripening varieties- ones that actually get sweet in our cool summers- but they need winter protection.

A couple comments on the pictures that SoCal has so generously posted,

That is  indeed a Thomasville Citrangequat.

The bark damage is on the Citrangequat, not the Yuzu-the Yuzu is much tougher.

I think that's a Dunstan Citrumelo, based on the shape of the fruit, but it would be nice if some of the more knowledgeable people on this board would confirm (or deny) that thought.

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