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Messages - sahai1

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 22, 2019, 04:25:15 PM »
while searching hyperventilation leading to syncope, there is quote a lot of research about this.. but is it true in regards to anaphylaxis?  For example my vitals while in ER showed a low respiration rate, below 10, which was sending off the alarms to nurses who were monitoring my reaction to the epinephrine.  In this case my RR was showing alarms after the epinephrine shot.

Im talking about breathing not about the heart rate.Breathing faster than normal and deeper ,it was caused by adrenaline .
Its a desirable effect ,because he needed adrenaline.
The too much oxigen in the blood as a result from the adrenaline caused him to faint ( another desirable effect meant to protect your body in such cases).
While fainting ,he didnt breathe for a few short minutes wich lowered the too much oxigen from his blood.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 22, 2019, 03:21:45 PM »
think your way off here seawalnut...

1rst.. Like palmcity mentioned the adrenaline (epinephrine) administered at the hospital slows the heart rate, because of effects on sympathetic nervous system in regards to the lungs.  I was administered epinephrine (adrenaline) at hospital to specifically lower my heart rate, by increasing oxygen flow.  After a few minutes after epinephrine shot, my heart rate went from 160 down to 80, so in fact adrenaline does not always increase heart rate, it's main function it would seem is to oxygenate the body in the best way possible.

The heart beats faster than normal, pushing blood to the muscles, heart, and other vital organs. Pulse rate and blood pressure go up. The person undergoing these changes also starts to breathe more rapidly. Small airways in the lungs open wide. This way, the lungs can take in as much oxygen as possible with each breath. Extra oxygen is sent to the brain, increasing alertness. Sight, hearing, and other senses become sharper.

So yes you are right, perhaps some adrenaline led to high heart rate in beginning, however this quickly wears off, and then comes the anaphylaxis shock.  The histamine causes vasodilation, in return hypotension, which leads to syncope.    I think the links are clear that this is not a disputable diagnosis.  The man at the gas station was well past the point of his own bodies adrenaline release and was experiencing severe hypotension.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 22, 2019, 02:07:33 PM »
thanks palmcity, that is a great explanation, especially I was confused how hypotension causes the tachycardia, and why the hypotension begins. 

It doesn't touch on the subject of desensitization at all though, and is written as if everyone is at risk, especially following a subsequent exposure to antigen.

If I understand correctly the anaphylactoid reaction is one where the IgE antibodies have already been created?   Or the body as already been sensitized? How long do the IgE antibodies stay docked on the basophils?

Can antigens combine to have a multiplied effect?  My wife had an idiopathic allergic reaction with hives and edema over a course of a few days about 2 weeks ago.  Perhaps I was storing some IgE antibodies from that which combined with the wasp antigen to create a more severe response.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 22, 2019, 12:33:21 AM »

Interesting the reaction of the man above that fainted at the gas station.Thats a real allergic.He got a panic atack because his body released the adrenaline wich made.him breathe too fast until he fainted because he got too much oxigen in his blood.Basically the body realised his reaction is overrated and it had a mechanism to stop it by itself.

I like your bee pollen story, I will go buy some.. how do you know if good quality? 

But for the man at the gas station... I think you are wrong and right.  For example one part of Anaphylaxis is is tachycardia which can cause hypotension.  High BPM/HR heart rate, leading to low blood pressure, which causes dizziness and fainting.  So he may or may not have panicked, but maybe have high cholesterol and a high BPM regularly.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 22, 2019, 12:23:30 AM »
Hi Palmcity...  I'd also have to agree with Seawalnut, there are plenty links, including US journals to contradict your links.  And you inserted a lot conjecture after the links, which the links did not support.

Actually in fact Seawalnut posted exactly what my ER doctor told me.. my next sting will likely not produce a reaction.  At the same time he prescribed me 2 adrenaline shots just to be safe.  so you are right,  safety first!  To take precautions to avoid the allergen, and be prepared with epinephrine is a great thing to do.  But also the shelf life issues... this makes it difficult to actually carry it with you wherever you go.

My own life experience, which does not apply to other people, but my own, is that my allergic reactions become less severe after more exposure.  Which is what doctors are trying to do now for people.  Anti-histamine drugs are not a solution, just like the overuse of antibiotics.  Strengthening and teaching your immune system to do it's job is always better than drugs if possible.

This was my first exposure to yellowjacket venom, which I read has a different antigen then bee venom.  I am not sure if it is the same as paper wasp venom.  That would have been my last sting I think.. perhaps 1.5 years ago. 

I like the link I first posted, as far as a link goes, it is well cited, from a reputable journal, from reputable doctors, peer reviewed.. your links.. not as good I think.  But you are welcome to post up some more links!

Which very strongly supports what Seawalnut said, but also strongly supports what you are saying.  Because everyone's immune system is different.  I do know that from my history with allergens, subsequent improvement is the normal.  Since my insurance is footing the bill, I'll take the adrenaline shots and keep them in my fridge.  But would I pay $500?  No, I am not that worried.  Please take note I am not giving advice to anybody else on what they should or should not do, and that is why all the research you will ever find on google will always say to not risk anything.

I would never take a shot for hives., but if I knew someone with trouble breathing, tingling sensation in body, swollen lips, BPM at rest over 130, hypotension, I would get them to a hospital for adrenaline shot.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 21, 2019, 06:57:01 PM »
We raise bees, and tried several times to get an epipen, and the doctor will not prescribe one unless someone in the family has a known allergic reaction. So we have not been able to obtain one.  Which is kind of ridiculous, since many people visit and we cannot know their status.

Did you try getting them for yourself by going to the Dr., you could always state that you had an incident before and now you are in a high risk occupation for another incident.

Otherwise, you could smuggle in some from Canada.

Even if you did acquire them, the need for a prescription makes it seem that you might be liable for any side effects of administering them, I googled, and found that the UK has an immunity law, but not sure the laws for the USA.

in the case you really want to remove all of parent tree, then best is to stump graft it, cleft or kerf, but like you said, maybe this tree won't respond well to either soursop scions or to being cut back to stump.  I have seen many annona saplings including soursop grow back after being wheedwhacked to the ground, so I would say they are pretty resilient.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 21, 2019, 02:19:40 PM »
on a side note, we should all try to stock up on anti-venoms from snake bites as well!  Well not for people in Hawaii, but other areas.  Many remote hospitals don't stock anti-venom or stock very generic anti-venom.  I was trying to go about getting cobra anti-venom and green tree snake viper anti-venom in Thailand, but was a bit complicated.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 21, 2019, 02:15:45 PM »


Have these giant hornets in Thailand, never been stung though, although there was a is a huge hive on a neighbors 3 story balcony, that is semi-used I guess.  They fly through door sometimes and can usually open a screen window and chase them out, or just kill them.  They are not so aggressive, but perhaps near their hives they would be.  From what I know these are very dangerous, and it's said they can kill a water buffalo.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 21, 2019, 02:02:54 PM »
You become more sensitive to the poison
the more you are exposed. It's very bad advice to tell someone you won't have
a reaction next time. How the hell do you know?

This is true and false... For example some woods have a allergens in the dust, you can work with the wood one day and have no reaction.  But after a week your body has been 'sensitized' and you can have a full blown reaction with itchy hives and edema.  I know, I've been there.  But after taking a break and coming back later and doing the same work the reaction gets less and less.  My tolerance now is very high for these dusts, usually only causing 1-2 small itchy pimples, which I ignore and they go away without treatment.  This is desensitization in long term

This also applies to mosquito bites, my edema or for allergies they call oedema (welts) reduce in size.  I've seen remarkable tolerance to fire ant bites in myself, they don't even cause raised pimples or any itching anymore.  I knock them off and only experience mild itching.  When I was young they would caused raised pimplish welts my mother would drain with a needle.

I'm pretty sure my reaction this time was because this was my body's first encounter with yellowjacket antigen, and I got stung very good twice.  I think the sting released more poison because the yellowjacket stung through my sunsleeves and maybe released it's full load or stinger got stuck.

Even my ER doctor said that next time I may or may not have a reaction, but to be safe carry the epinephrine shots with me, and if I have to use them come to ER for followup.  Since these only work 20 minutes (or for me about 2 hours in the ER I felt effects).

So yes desensitization is a thing for long term.. and also sensitization is also a thing for short term.  That is why doctors do the antigen tolerance therapy, giving small doses over time, just like a snake handler drinks poison, or how alcoholics can handle a full liter of whisky.

In the article I cited they also talk about this:

Natural course

A substantial proportion of patients (20-80% in different studies) with a history of a generalised reaction to a sting have no such reaction to a subsequent sting—that is, spontaneous improvement is common

Less severe generalised reactions may also occur

However, the course can be variable—a series of stings may result in a generalised reaction, no reaction, and then another generalised reaction

Children do particularly well: one study showed that 95% of those with a history of mild generalised reactions had no reaction to a subsequent sting

The next sting will not necessarily cause a more severe reaction, but patients in accident and emergency departments are often told that it will

Reasons for the variable outcome are not well understood but include the interval from the last sting (the longer the interval the lower the risk of another generalised reaction), the patient’s immune response at the time of the sting (this will change with time), the dose of venom injected, and the site of the sting

So yes, a subsequent reaction is entirely possible, and a subsequent non-reaction is entirely possible too, but there is no guarantee of either, and for my case I'll definitely go fill my prescription of epinephrine.  Sad part is I read they have to be at about 75 degrees storage temp, so I'll have to keep at home, keeping in car would be best.

I would suggest for your condition to try to get prescribed epinephrine shots, epinephrine is adrenaline, it is not proprietary, and you do not have to buy overpriced 'epi-pens'

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 21, 2019, 05:24:33 AM »
I’m glad you survived and thanks for the warning. I hear Epi pens are really expensive now. If Epi pens are cheap and available without a prescription, I would buy a couple and just have them around just in case.


with my insurance plan, the prescription is covered, so glad I got prescribed at ER, don't need to go to my regular doctor. 

Thank God you were able to get help in time.  If your yellowjackets are similar to ours, they have a very nasty disposition & are much more aggressive than bees & hornets.  I believe that they can nest in a variety of places, including just a hole in the ground so perhaps you were approaching their nest while weeding.   I had a similar experience with yellowjackets when clearing weeds & brush at my place -- but with a less serious reaction than you.

yeh, this was on Oahu, so likely similar species.  I didn't find them that aggressive after initial attack, I found where they were, and as long as I stayed 2 feet away they didn't come after me.  I continued working nearby for 5 minutes or so before I started feeling weird.  I could not find any hive, so perhaps yeh I disturbed their hole.

Im glad you survived.What made you to be allergic is that you got too manny stings at once before when you wasnt allergic but the body prepared with a stronger immune sistem reaction.
The incident with manny stings basicaĺly confused your immune system and now you are allergic.
But there is hope:

1 ,these 2 wasps stings you got now ptobably made you non allergic for the next sting in case it happens.Could even save your life in case your next sting would be in a remote place or you dont get to the ER in time.Sometimes people die in just 5 minutes and you could be in the ER and still not make it because it happens too fast.But dont count on it,that these new stings made your immune system normal again,it would be like playing russian roulette.

2 ,you can do a treatment with bee venom ( by a doctor,in a hospital) wich spans on a few years and trains your immune system to not overreact.Then you would be non allergic to any wasp,hornet,bee sting ,because its the albumin that causes the allergy and that is found in wasp venom as in bee venom.

I read online that although similar, the antigen in yellowjackets is actually different.

My last wasp sting was a year or two ago, and when I was swarmed by honeybees nearly 10 years back, so not sure if this was a buildup or not.  Usually bee stings give me a single welt or small hive area at the sting, and is slow to react.

I've built up natural resistance to a lot of things, like fire ants don't cause any allergic reaction with me anymore, and rosewood oils are limited to small itchy areas, so I'm thinking next yellowjacket sting if there is one will be less severe.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / anaphylactic shock from yellowjackets
« on: August 20, 2019, 11:31:05 PM »
no stranger to wasp stings or bee stings.   Once was trimming a tree and I had to stand tight working a boom while being swarmed.. must have been 100 stings.  Took a benadryl and went to sleep.

However today was working and I got 1-2 wasp stings from what I believe was a yellowjacket, fatty yellow wasp, that was much like a bee except larger and longer.  I tried to pinpoint how pulling weeds pissed them off.. but they refused to stop buzzing around some leaf blades.  I have seen paper wasps put eggs on banana leaves, and I got some stings from bumping those before.. but yellowjackets and grass? 

Anyways after 10 minutes top of skull itched insanely, 15 minutes, swollen with hives entire arms, legs, eyes, face, ears, lips.  20 minutes difficulty breathing..  By this time I am on the way to hospital because of the breathing problems, my face is unrecognizable by now, and they took my vitals and heart rate was 160,.  Dr. telling me to calm down.. thing is I was extremely calm, body was just doing it's own thing.  So between heart rate, hyptotension, and difficult breathing, ER was best decision I think!

They gave me an epinephrine shot, benadryl, and oral cortisone, and got better, but a little shaky from epinephrine...

So, yeh.. it's possible to be allergic to yellowjackets but not other bees or wasps.  Take care guys, and keep epinephrine on farm if you can.  Got myself a prescription, so now I can stock 2 syringes on farm.  I'm at home already, but entire body is welts and hives, but at least I can breath normally and heart rate back to normal.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Weeping banana
« on: August 14, 2019, 05:15:24 PM »
Once you cut the top out some will say that the transplant will never fruit


whoever said that has 0% experience growing bananas, the corm has a genetic marker or something... they will always grow back after being cut, and flower/fruit.    If cut after they flower or even if they have a flower developing in the trunk, they won't grow back.  So if they grow back, they will flower 100%.

Also.. the banana is just acclimating, it is a new transplant, I've had plenty of new plantings do this, especially with large leaf bearing bananas like cuban reds.  If it gets too bad just cut it and let it grow back and try again.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: What happened to my jackfruit tree?
« on: August 01, 2019, 09:27:48 PM »
hard to know Malia without seeing your soil, and knowing what your store bought soil is like.  However I am a huge fan of hole digging and soil replacement. I've got it down to a science for my soil conditions, I dig the hole as deep as possible, fill with chopped banana, then I burn material in the hole like mill cut offs, dried coconuts, leaves, grass, etc. until the hole is pretty full of ash and cinder.   Then I fill with compost, manure, and coir mix mounded up high.  Then I wait for this to settle and plant trees in this.  The only real proof that this works, is that before my trees always died or stunted before, but now my trees almost always survive.  I think long term the hole will help build grow really strong taproots to water table because nothing too difficult to go around.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: What happened to my jackfruit tree?
« on: August 01, 2019, 01:20:11 PM »
Hi, you are missing the point.. plant the seeds directly in the ground, jackfruit planting is not really planting, they should sit above or a just a bit under loose dirt with plenty of shade, so if the area you want to plant is getting full sun, build a square shadenet house around it.

By planting direct in the ground, the tree will acclimate to the conditions better.  Also the seedlings have quite a lot of nutrients to push the taproot deep and to the right level, and it can help 'push' up the tree to where it needs to be survive.  None of that can be done if started in a pot.  Also since planting a bunch, a few dying is not a big deal, and those seeds may have survived in the pot, but not survive when planting after raising in a pot.

What do you think about how I should proceed with the seedlings? Better keep replanting them in bigger pots and then plant in the ground or stop at 3 gallons and then plant in the ground? The biggest pot I have is 15 gallon.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: What happened to my jackfruit tree?
« on: July 29, 2019, 01:22:47 AM »
Malia, per your original reply, buying a bigger potted Jackfruit will not solve the issue, plant from seed, spend that money on fresh jackfruit and plant as many seeds possible everywhere.  Eventually just cull the weakest out.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: What happened to my jackfruit tree?
« on: July 28, 2019, 07:53:47 PM »
the few I lost experienced wet feet for a a day or two and went into shock, new budding leaves kept coming up giving me hope, but eventually those grew very small with brownish tips and the tree just gave up.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Air Layering failed
« on: July 28, 2019, 01:25:28 PM »
like a basil cutting in a cup of water, should rot or root.  Seems your issue is lack of moisture, that is why air layers usually use a sterile water retaining substrate like coir.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: What happened to my jackfruit tree?
« on: July 28, 2019, 01:20:22 PM »

1.  potted jackfruit (taproot very fickle)
2.  rainy weather
3.  your hole

When you dig a hole, the soil when refilled will be naturally less compact then surrounding area, this causes water to collect in the hole and cause waterlogged conditions. 

Next time you can try to disturb surrounding dirt less, or try to compact it better and plant slightly above in a mound.  It will settle in a year or two level.

Sorry to say but in my experience potted Jackfruit and Durian, once they start dropping leaves due to waterlogged conditions, they will die, never seen them make a come back.

I think the Laplae Durian festival is late July/early August, so yeh, there is still Durian in Thailand, Thailand actually very long country with wide range longitudes.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: edible pineapple
« on: July 26, 2019, 12:31:53 AM »
even the largest pineapple fruit strains, if planted and starved will wait and wait and wait, and after maximum waiting time I think genetically speaking around 2.5 yrs they will product small fruit like this.  They are like cactus almost, they don't need much water or nutrients, but if you give them that the fruit will fatten and become juicy.

I have one in full sun, and one in partial shade, both have grown in such a way that the leader has grown too tall for its weight, fell over, and new side leaders have come up to compete forming threes naturally. 

I'm going to wait until mine has some real woody growth before topping.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Banana corms recovery
« on: July 22, 2019, 11:44:06 PM »
found one picture of my favorite reds..

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Banana corms recovery
« on: July 22, 2019, 06:42:22 PM »
Pisang Mas pictures of fruits match Gluay Khai, important that small, completely round, thin skin, flesh slight orangish tint.  Very sweet, but bruises easily and can ripen unevenly occasionally causing hard spots in fruit.  Boles larger than Leb Mer (Leb Mer Nang is likely just dwarf variety of Leb Mer)

My favorite red banana at house has similar shape to Gluay Khai, pink flesh, round but more slender fruit.

Gluay Namwa have at least 3 important varieties which are hugely different:
Gluay Namwa Yak (giant)
Gluay Namwa Dia (dwarf) - not farmed
Gluay Namwa Pak Chong 50 -

Be away from the farm for a while, but when back will post up some pics, since we have a common interest in Thai banana!

Not sure why you plant Tani, for jungle bananas, the seeded Borneo versions seem to be much more impressive.  In south, any seeded version will refer to Gluay Pa (jungle banana) and there is much debate and concern about seeded versions cross pollinating good strains... sometimes old wives tales are true, so who knows.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: when ro plant out snakeskin fruit?
« on: July 22, 2019, 02:54:36 PM »
mountainous areas get more shade cover, so a few 'dust/wind' breaks from tall trees will help with enough additional shade. 

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