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Messages - Walt

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus Seedlings
« on: May 20, 2018, 05:16:44 PM »
My guess is that inheritance of precociousness from a naturally precocious species will be due to several genes, and the F1 will be intermediate between the parents.  P. trifoliata precociousness is due to single recessive trait.  So I think you are on the right track.  The partial precocity of the hybrid will get you through the F1 generation sooner that less precocious citrus species crossed with precocious Pt.  Then in the F2 I expect the homozygous precocious from Pt will divide the F2 generation into 2 maturity groups, each showing variation in precocity due to the microcitris genes.
That's my guess.  I'm getting set up to do similar crosses, but you are way ahead of me.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus Seedlings
« on: May 19, 2018, 02:44:55 PM »
Wow.  Not encouraging.
My seed source, Hong's Landscaping in Wichita, Kansas has had regular fruiting for many years.  But Mr. Hong doesn't remember his sourse nor does he remember how long he has had them.  His 2 bushes, not really trees, are about 3 M tall and 5 m wide, with many trunks each.  They are by a fence where they get no attention.  They are of no importance to his landscape business, nor to his mostly beautifully landscaped grounds.
I have 5 year old seedlings from seeds from these to bushes.  Sounds like it will be a while before I'll be getting my own seed or pollen.  Well, I can drive 140 miles to get pollen if I have to.  But first my citrus will have to grow a while.
I have been promised a grafted precocious P.t later this summer, but it sounds like any resulting seedlings will take quite a while as the precocious is recessive.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus Seedlings
« on: May 18, 2018, 01:47:28 PM »
When growing Poncirus for fruit (seeds), what spacing do you use?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Poncirus Seedlings
« on: May 18, 2018, 01:44:23 PM »
How old are they?  Are they blooming size yet?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Growing lemons from seed?
« on: May 12, 2018, 02:06:56 PM »
I used the search on this forum  and found very little on Meyer lemon seedlings.  This thread mentioned Meyer lemon seedlings so I'll post my question here.
I have started a rather large citrus breeding project.  It will be some years before I have a bunch of hand-pollinated citrus seeds, but I'm preparing for them.  In the meantime I will have lots of space and I  need to gain experience growing citrus seedlings.  So I planted a bunch of Meyer lemon seeds.
You don't need to tell me the seedlings won't be Meyer lemons.  If I wanted a bunch of Meyer lemons, I'd have bought Meyer lemon cutting grown or grafted plants.  I want to see a segregating population of some citrus seedlings. 
But not being the most patient person in the world, I'd like to hear results from anyone who has grown even one Meyer lemon to maturity.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Buy, sell, or trade pollen here?
« on: May 11, 2018, 01:30:54 PM »
No finger limes yet, but I've started shopping.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Buy, sell, or trade pollen here?
« on: May 09, 2018, 04:44:17 PM »
Something I think about often.
As I made plans for a 39 year breeding program, I realized that in that time, there could (will) be designer plants. 
The CRISPR process you mentioned could be applied to an F1 of P.t x citrus and delete the bad flavor genes of P.t, and delete the genes for cold damage from citrus.  I presume the deleted genes of P.t could be replaced with copies of the citrus genes.
But I decided to give the old way a try, as it is the method I know and am set up for.  I plan on wondering around on this Earth for several years yet, and I might as well do something interesting.

I'm told that citrus pollen properly dried and refridgerated will keep for a year.  I haven't tried, as I'm mostly waiting for flowers.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Buy, sell, or trade pollen here?
« on: May 07, 2018, 03:18:03 PM »
It is frustrating, though sometimes necessary, for breeders to grow breeding stock for years before actually making a cross.  So how about including pollen here?  I might start by suggesting that same rules should apply as for seeds, as I'm not absolutely sure that pollen can't spread virus.  I'm sure they don't spread insects, at least.
I can see that sometimes an inexperienced person might harvest unripe pollen, or not keep it dry enough.  And how to quantify the amount of pollen.

Thanks.  I seem to recall he had not been on the old group for some time, so I didn't think to see if he is here.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: April 25, 2018, 12:35:11 PM »
Last year I succeeded in getting citrumelo 5* x  Flying Dragon hybrid seedlings, but it was after several years of failures.

From reading your posts for several years, I'm sure you know what you are doing and how to do it.  So it sounds to me that maybe Ponciris-Citrus hybrids aren't very fertile.  Is that generally true?  Have people tried enough crosses using Ponciris-Citrus hybrids as parents to know how fertile they are?  I have read of the kumquat x citrange hybrids of course.  And Dr. Brown's hybrids.  Those made me think it was easy, but for all I know they resulted from thousands of attempts.

Well, the title says it all.  I'm looking for Laaz's precocious P. trifoliata to in hopes of speeding up my citrus breeding.  PM me with price etc.

I've rooted figs and tried to root citrus cuttings.
Figs are easy.  I've never lost a cutting from the edible fig.  Most other species I've tried, I've lost one here and there.  Some species of figs for roots in the air, on the tree.  Banyans are figs though not the edible kinds.
Citrus I have tried twice with no success.  I think Millet's suggestion of sterilizing the cuttings might have made a difference.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: April 13, 2018, 03:54:58 PM »
At the start of this thread, I said I was using mandarine, orange, and P. trifoliata. 
Mandarin because it is my favorite citrus, it is often zygotic, and it is moderately precocious.
Orange because I had access to OP Sanford seeds, and oranges are much like mandarins.
Trifoliate orange, obviously, because it is winter-hardy in zone 5.  It has no other excuse for being in my garden.

Now, in addition, I plan to start another group using finger lime and precocious P. trifoliata.  The F1 should be somewhat precocious because of the finger lime.  The precocious P. trifoliata is recessive by many reports.  The backcross of (fingerlime x P. trifoliata) to precocious P. trifoliata, I hope will segregate for precocity.  Also it will be segregating for winter-hardiness and traits that go together to give winter hardiness, i.e. dormancy that lasts all winter, low temperature tolerance.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: April 09, 2018, 05:04:24 PM »
Welcome Ethane.
I'm in the process of re-writing my goal and method because of the responses I got here.  I now have much higher expectations.
I'm now wanting to combine low poncirin and precocious with high percent  monozygotic seeds.
In the meantime, producing 3/4 P. trifoliata 1/4 citrus seedlings to see how much segregation there is for cold tolerance.  Of course that means finding a replicatible way to measure cold tolerance.
We are both in zone 6.  That doesn't mean what works for one of us will necessarily work for the other.  There are so many other factors not covered by a single number.  But more people working on this can only improve our chances.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: March 14, 2018, 12:37:42 PM »
Ilya.  How many of the citrumelo 5* x  Flying Dragon hybrid seedlings do you have?  I ask because I plan backcrosses of various 3/4 P.t. 1/4 citrus, and I'd like to know how much segregation for cold tolerance there is in the backcross 1 generation.  I will be following your results with great interest.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: March 13, 2018, 02:01:22 PM »
Thank you for the information.  "almost edible" is not my goal, but it is a step along the way.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: March 11, 2018, 04:31:57 PM »
I am thinking that all the citrange, citandarin, citquat, etc., should be remade using the better tasting P.t.  Also with the more zygotic P.t., and with precocious P.t.  I know that is a lot of work and will take a lot of space.  But I am retired and I have no desire to sit around waiting to die.  And I thought my origonal plan, which I still plan to do, was pretty ambitious.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: March 10, 2018, 12:56:09 PM »
Also 2 other question.
Do you know of other 3/4 P. t., 1/4 citrus?
Did you use a P.t. with their usual flavor or one of the mutants with better flavor?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: March 10, 2018, 12:53:00 PM »
This is the first 3/4 P. trifoliata, 1/4 citrus I've heard of.  Any idea of how hardy it will be?  I know, or believe, that the citromelo, being a hybrid will be segregating, so there could be great variation in such hybrids.  I'm willing to go to 7/8 P. trifoliata, 1/8 citrus, but I hope I don't have to.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: March 09, 2018, 04:40:44 PM »
Does citrus pollen store well and ship well?
I ask because I am impatient to get some crosses made and hybrid seeds started.  Breeding trees takes patience, and I'd be OK with that if I had no other options. 
But I know there are people here who have mature plants of some I've been growing on, and might make some pollinations if they had pollen.  and there may be people with mature plants who might donate pollen.  Yes?
When I started this thread, I was thinking in long term plans.  But since there are mature plants of non-disgusting P. trifoliata, and US 852, for example, such a cross might be made this spring and we'd be that much closer to having something edible and more hardy than now exists.
But first step is to see if it is possible.
I realize that P. trifoliata blooms earlier than citranges or citanderins, etc.  So it might not work making the cross in the direction I'd like, unless the P. trifoliata is much further north than the US 852.  Perhaps a  US 852 x citrange?
Anyone have information or ideas?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus Growers Forum
« on: February 24, 2018, 01:20:23 PM »
I have read books and many journal papers on citrus, but much of what I have learned of citrus is from that website.  Thanks for making it available again.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Accuracy of cold hardiness temperatures?
« on: February 23, 2018, 05:30:06 PM »
Useful information.  Thanks for posting the links.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Swamp Lemon Adventure!
« on: February 13, 2018, 01:21:57 PM »
What about the palmtrees? Sabal minor? Or Rhapidophyllum hystrix? Swamp lemon looks like a common Poncirus -am I right? But it seems to be much less cold hardy, I suppose.

The place on the internet where I read about it showed pure P. trifoliata, Swamp Lemon, and citrange leaves.  The Swamp Lemon leaves were intermediate between the pure trifoliate and the citrange leaves.  Not proof, but suggests to me that it isn't pure trifoliate.  Either way, I want it.  Assuming it exists.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Accuracy of cold hardiness temperatures?
« on: January 23, 2018, 01:49:48 PM »
Thanks for the comments.
I live in winter wheat country.  Winter wheat that grows here is known for its drought tolerence.  Yet last year the wheat was damaged by drought over the winter.  So I think the combination of drought stress and cold was right.  Also the fact that I'd never had much winter die-back before.
As for microclimate, when I was hoeing up dikes around each plant to hold the water, some areas were moist and some were completely dry.  This within 2 m of each other. 
One winter old seedlings were more than 100 m from the 4 winter old seedlings.  Differences between locations include tree root competition, wind breaks, amount of sun, soil type, mulch vs. no mulch.  So it isn't fair to compare them at all. 
I had never seen leaves on P,t during the winter before, except in the greenhouse of course.  But I haven't really checked them before.  But last year was the first time I have seen winter damage.  From now on I'll be checking them all winter.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Accuracy of cold hardiness temperatures?
« on: January 21, 2018, 03:12:55 PM »
Last winter many of pure P. trifolata seedlings died to the ground over the winter.  These seedlings had been planted in pots as seeds as soon as the fruit were ripe.  They were grown in a greenhouse over the first winter, then planted in the ground as soon as last frost date.
I had treated seedlings the same every year for 4 years, building up a supply of rootstocks, for 4 years with no problems so I blamed drought stress, not cold.  But since they had survived underground and came back up, I decided it was cold and drought stress combined, not one or the other.  Such little things can affect winter hardiness I think.
All seeds were from the tree and I think they are all geneticly identical.

So this year I am irrigating over the winter.  And yesterday I was out carrying water to the seedlings, since the summer automatic irrigation is shut off for the winter.  I noticed 3 out of 94 seedlings still had green, healthy leaves.  I have had over a week below freezing, dropping to -15C during 2 nights.  And green leaves still on my P.t?  The cold had broken and the last 5 days have been quite warm, dropping below freezing most nights but just barely freezing.  Freeze damage should have been seen by now if it had happened.
So I looked at my 3 and 4 years seedlings.  14 of 25 4 year old seedlings still have green healthy leaves.  Nothing I have been told or read prepared me for this.
I think that any report of trees living or dieing at a given temperature is of very limited value in another place,  I don't say it is of no value, because we often have no better information.  But there are many variables other than temperature and variety.

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