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Messages - simon_grow

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1
It depends where you are getting your trees from. As of several years ago, the Hak Ip people are growing in Florida is not what the Chinese call Hak Ip. Iíve lost pictures of the real Hak Ip on this site somewhere.

Simon

2
A lot of my friends have been contacting me lately regarding polyembryonic Mangos and I want to mention that sometimes polyembryonic Mangos will give you a Monoembryonic seed. When you remove the seed husk and the brown skin from the embryo, you will sometimes see just one segment and the seed will only produce one seedling. I do not know if the one seedling will be a clone or zygotic so if you are going after a clone, itís better to plant a polyembryonic seed with multiple segments.

Iíve seen mono seeds from Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Orange Sherbet and now E4(Sugarloaf).

Sugarloaf sometimes gets really skinny seeds and when you open up the seed husk, there is an atrophied embryo. From a total of 7 Sugarloaf seeds, I got two atrophied embryos, three Monoembryonic embryos, one that looks mono but could be Polyembryonic( segments not well defined) and one that is for sure polyembryonic.

Here are some Sugarloaf embryos, the one on top is Polyembryonic.



Simon

I was saying that a month ago. That some mangoes can go poly or mono.  But you are giving it more refinment. You are saying

--- Mangoes that are poly-embryonic will sometimes give you mono-embryonic seeds. Lets say 5-10% of the time
----Mangoes that  give you mono-embryonic seeds will only give you mono-embryonic seeds. You will never get a poly-embryonic seed from them

Though I will say that from time to time avocado seeds and mono mango seeds will send out two shoots/ two sprouts

Hey Zands, that is what I believe to be true but Iím no Mango expert. Maybe Alex can chime in or perhaps Dr. Campbell, Dr. Ledesma or Dr. Crane will have additional information.

I have heard anecdotal mention that Monoembryonic varieties can have polyembryonic seeds under certain circumstances but I have not witnessed it myself.

I have very often seen Monoembryonic mango seeds sprout multiple sprouts but it is always from the same trunk or tap root. This is very different from polyembrony. This often occurs when I do stone grafting and behead a newly emerged seedling. The plant seems to be able to detect something wrong with the main sprout and will somehow signal the production of multiple sprouts from the main trunk just below the soil line or sometimes above it.

Simon

3
Simon, what are the chances that E4 seeds got mixed up?

Hey Behl, it is highly unlikely the seeds got mixed up. I got the seeds from highly respected members with direct links to the Zills. Brad actually had an E4 Fruit that was slightly bruised that he shared with me and I believe the seed was one of those that we couldnít tell for sure if itís mono or poly.

Simon

4
A lot of my friends have been contacting me lately regarding polyembryonic Mangos and I want to mention that sometimes polyembryonic Mangos will give you a Monoembryonic seed. When you remove the seed husk and the brown skin from the embryo, you will sometimes see just one segment and the seed will only produce one seedling. I do not know if the one seedling will be a clone or zygotic so if you are going after a clone, itís better to plant a polyembryonic seed with multiple segments.

Iíve seen mono seeds from Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Orange Sherbet and now E4(Sugarloaf).

Sugarloaf sometimes gets really skinny seeds and when you open up the seed husk, there is an atrophied embryo. From a total of 7 Sugarloaf seeds, I got two atrophied embryos, three Monoembryonic embryos, one that looks mono but could be Polyembryonic( segments not well defined) and one that is for sure polyembryonic.

Here are some Sugarloaf embryos, the one on top is Polyembryonic.



Simon

5
Here is a picture of a Yai Grom I just sampled yesterday at Leo Manuelís House. The Fruit is from Maurice Kong. When I first saw it, I told Leo it looks a lot like Maha Chanok. I picked it up and sniffed it and it smelled like Maha Chanok. Everything about it including the color reminded me of Maha Chanok.

When I cut it open, it smelled a bit different than Maha Chanok and when I tasted it, it tasted very different. This fruit was slightly over ripe but it was still firm. It had a sweet taste, Brix was 19%, but it had no acidity at all and it had a musky taste to it. Aside from the musky taste which I do not care for, it did not have any other outstanding flavor. I thought the Fruit was just ok but Leo said it was good.

I feel this fruit would have been better if eaten a bit earlier and perhaps it would have a bit of acidity to balance out the sugars. The musky taste might also not be as noticeable if eaten at an earlier stage.



Simon

6
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Brutal heatwave 7/06/18 in Socal
« on: July 19, 2018, 11:39:14 AM »
Itís sounding like we AZ growers need to pass along a few tricks to our so. Cal brothers.  In no particular order....50% ( min) shade cloth on the west side for at least the first summer ( maybe two depending on growth rate).  Larger root mass= better survival rate, so I mostly plant 7 gal trees, minimum.  IF you have good drainage, mangos can handle a lot of water.  If not, they rot out during heatwaves when you water every two days.  I do DEEP watering three or four times in the spring to encourage deep rooting.
 I grow a variety of silica accumulating plants to use as mulch, Vetiver grass topping that list.  I also spray a few times in the spring to make sure the plant accumulated enough silica to withstand the heat.  I also have worked to develop a microclimate that provides shade and humidity.  Fast growing trees that can be chopped down in a few years are a great way of accomplishing this (morniga, tipu, ash,jacaranda, etc).
Plants have to be in good shape by the time June hits.  I will gladly sacrifice a little growth in the spring by not pushing fruiting too young in order to have a healthier tree with better caliper growth.
I dig planting holes a year in advance and provide a lot of drainage via gravel, stones, pumice, etc. mixed with my planting mix.  This allows compensation for settling, as well as establishment of fungal populations which can help augment roots.  I will also will plant in Fall and baby plants thru winter if they are slower growing varieties.  That gives a bit more root mass by the time June hits the next year.  I can more easily compensate for our cool temps than I can for our brutal, dry summers....Fast growers like LZ and Peach Cobbler always do better in our heat than slower varieties.  Dig BIG planting holes so roots can spread as fast as possible. 
As long as the trees are in good shape during heat, I continue to fertilize lightly with fish emulsion (50% of recommended rate).  This seems to allow for rapid recovery once our temps cool a bit and humidity rises again.  If not in good shape, focus on moisture management and just getting the tree to survive.  Danger zone is >105 and/or winds.  I ignore crispy leaves and any crisped new growth and focus on keeping soil moist, not soggy, and do a quick hand misting in the AM and evenings to provide some relief to the younger plants.
Finally, I find a bit of amino acids and maybe a little superthrive seems to help avoid the worst damage.  Absolutely avoid strong fertilization during heat.  Trying to help by adding too much Ďstuffí to your regimen is counter productive.
I hope this helps people.  We in AZ are in uncharted territory when it comes to growing mango, so I hope my observations can help others avoid the 10 years of mistakes I have made.

Thanks for the great info Dessert Dreamer!

Simon

7
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Ice cream mango
« on: July 19, 2018, 11:25:29 AM »
You may want to stay away from some of the newer Zill varieties as they are ultra candy sweet. Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, PiŮa Colada, Coconut Cream, etc...

Simon

8
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Future's Florida Fruit Feast 8
« on: July 18, 2018, 04:43:55 PM »
Future, I look forward to your annual Mango evaluations. I recently had a few CAC/COC that weíre phenominal, a top ten Mango even amongst the Zill varieties.

Not to derail but hereís some info on the Vietnamese Mangos
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=772.msg123773#msg123773

Simon

9
Hey fliptop,
Yes I do use the leaf color, shape and smell to try to guess which seedlings are the clones. Originally I assumed that you could simply break a leaf and smell the sap to determine the clone for specific varieties like Sweet Tart but I have yet to find a Sweet Tart seedling that does not have the strong pungent Indo Chinese smell to its sap. Iím guessing that the intense Indo Chinese sap smell is a dominant trait or that all the zygotic seedlings were selfed and this retained this attribute.

There is also the possibility that Sweet Tart is one of those varieties where the zygotic seedling dies out in favor of the clones but Iím only assuming at this point.

Best practice is to grow out at least two seedlings from different segments of the seed to fruition.

Simon

10
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Brutal heatwave 7/06/18 in Socal
« on: July 17, 2018, 11:02:56 PM »
I donít waste fruit so I will just cut off the exposed pieces and eat the rest. It sucks that the Fruit cracked so early because they havenít sugared up yet. This first fruit only had a Brix between 14-15% depending on which side I tested.

Simon

11
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Brutal heatwave 7/06/18 in Socal
« on: July 17, 2018, 10:16:23 PM »
The heatwave sucked! It killed back several of my new grafts and did this to my Dragonfruit.


Simon

12
Simon (and others), when you get multiple sprouts, do you separate and grow out each sprout individually? If so, how soon do you separate them?

I have some yearling PSM and NDM that I separated at birth and are doing well so far in terms of growth. Last year's PPK only kicked out one sprout but I am keeping it.

This year I got clumsy hands and snapped tap roots off seedlings and also feel I separated my two Coconut Cream sprouts too soon. I snapped one completely off the seed but I managed to keep its tap root. Have you ever done something similar and the seedling survived? Thanks!

Hereís a couple pictures of my Sweet Tart Seedlings. Two sprouts came up from this seed. I direct planted this seed into the ground. Just because two seedlings come up from one seed does not mean that one is zygotic and one is a clone. Also, sometimes one segment of seed will have multiple sprouts come up. Because those seedlings came from the same segment of seed, they should be identical. In this case, if you are trying to get a clone, you could be out of luck because the seedlings could have come from the zygotic segment.






There are a couple things I do to ensure I get two seedlings from different segments of a Polyembryonic seed. The first and easiest method is to sprout the seed and visually inspect that you have at least two segments that sprout separate roots. Once you have verified this, you can plant your seed with more confidence.

The second method is for seeds planted into a pot or the ground. Once the seedlings sprout and gain some size, gently tug on the trunk of one of the seedlings, if both seedlings move, they may be on the same root or the roots are entangled tightly. If the seedlings move independently, they are likely from different segments of seed.

Hereís a NDM seedling growing vigorously. There were 4 sprouts from this seed. One seedling is obviously dominant with the other three being very similar in size and growth rate so one can presume that the offtype is the zygotic seedling.




If I wanted the clone, I could remove two of the three smaller seedlings leaving the two seedlings with different phenotypes but I wanted to see how the four trees will turn out if left alone.

Hereís a couple pictures of some PiŮa Colada seedlings with multiple sprouts coming out.



Simon

13
Was that one of the varieties that Maurice Kong brought over to Leos place that we tasted a couple years ago? I remember Maurice brought over several samples of Mangos Iíve never heard of before at that tasting a while back.

Simon

14
Leo Manuel just notified me of these new introductions. I believe they were introduced by Maurice Kong but I am not positive. Has anyone tasted these varieties or have any information they can add.

Several people including Cielo, Kevin Foth, Bob Holtzinger,  Dr. Paulette Johnson of Tropical Fruit & Vegetable Society, Dr. Jonathan Crane at the University of Florida, Steve Pearson curator of Gifford Arboretum among others attended the special Mango tasting.

Maurice Kong introduced us to Ice Cream Mango and Po Pyu Kalay so I figure if he introduced these new varieties, they have potential.

1.    Shwe Hin Dha (Burma)

2.    Thong Lone Tda Daung Burma)

3.     Nuan Tjan (Thailand)

4.     Yai Grom  (Thailand)

Simon

15
Jeff does. Try contacting him to see whatís available.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=28607.0

Simon

16
CA Hockey, yes thatís the way to do it.

Simon

17
Future, thanks for the confirmation on Honey KISS being Polyembryonic, now to find some seeds!

Fliptop, I have separated seedlings from polyembryonic seeds before but I mostly do this for rootstock trees. When Iím propagating Polyembryonic seedlings in hopes of getting a clone, I leave all the seedlings. By leaving all the seedlings, i hope we that only one of the seedlings is zygotic and the rest are clones.

Some of the research articles I posted in another thread show that there can be more than one zygotic seedling arising from a Polyembryonic seed but it is less common.

I have a feeling that if we grow out enough zygotic seedlings, some of us will get lucky with a great tasting new variety. The Zygotic seedling should have about 50% of the genes from the parent Fruit or 100% if it was selfed but with selfing, there is still re arrangement of chromosomes so you will Not get a clone although you can get something almost identical except at the DNA level.

Fliptop, I have snapped off seedling sprouts multiple times and I have often gotten new growth from the tap root.

Simon


18
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Site Outage
« on: July 16, 2018, 05:00:12 PM »
Thanks for the update Jeff. Rob, thatís a great idea. Count me in on donating something for fundraising.

Simon

19
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Ice cream mango
« on: July 14, 2018, 11:10:10 AM »
I love Ice Cream Mango. Itís very sweet and has a unique somewhat savory umami flavor that is hard to describe in words. I just wish the tree were larger and faster growing. It would also be nice if the fruit were larger.

Simon

20
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Avocado grafting
« on: July 14, 2018, 01:23:01 AM »
Sometimes the tip of a cleft graft will spread open as the very tip of the cleft dries up. It can happen after 2,3 even 4 weeks depending on the stage of growth of the scion and rootstock and also depending on the variety of plant that is grafted.

Grafts on more mature wood of Pomegranate for example will sometimes spread open when the wood is older but on younger wood, it doesnít happen as often.

For soft wood cutting such as that using the stone grafting technique, I will often not use any binder other than parafilm or buddytape. The wood is so soft that it will not cause a breach in the parafilm or buddytape and the stretched parafilm or buddytape is strong enough to add enough tension on the union to provide more than adequate contact.

Simon

21
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Mangosteen at 99 Ranch Market
« on: July 13, 2018, 06:27:58 PM »
Is there any mention that itís been irradiated?

I would assume itís not irradiated if itís from Mexico but I canít say for sure.

Simon

22
I brought a few top notch Kesar Mangos in to work about two years ago and some coworkers mentioned that it had a floral or rose taste to it. Kesar is a very piney, strong Indian spice flavored mango but when it is at its peak of perfection with Brix about 20-21%, a floral taste does come out but I would say itís a stretch of the imagination to say that is specifically a rose taste.

Brewster Lychees do have a wonderful rose/Lychee aroma and taste!

Simon

23
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Avocado grafting
« on: July 13, 2018, 03:43:09 AM »
Sucks I couldnít make it to help you graft today as I had previous arrangements with Leo Manuel.

I donít like to use rubber bands because they deteriorate rapidly in our hot sun. The clothes pins are so much easier to use. When I used to use rubber bands, many of them would go bad and release tension on the graft union.

For avocado grafts, which I havenít done too many of compared to Mango, I have had success with cleft, veneer and side grafts. The clefts are easiest but veneer seems to have slightly higher success rate, similar to side grafts. As long as you keep it warm and out of direct sun for the first couple weeks, you should get some good takes. The most important factors are the health and vigor of your rootstocks/scions.

Simon

24
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Malaysia Adventure
« on: July 13, 2018, 03:13:54 AM »
Hey Future,

If youíve never had the Musang King, I would highly recommend it. Itís the best tasting Durian Iíve ever eaten. They sell for $10 a pound here in the USA but they are frozen although the quality is exceptional. The MK Durian is sweet with a very slight bitterness that is very tasty. I have not purchased a Mornthong after eating the Musang King a few years ago.

Simon

25
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Brutal heatwave 7/06/18 in Socal
« on: July 12, 2018, 12:56:02 PM »
I was out of town for the heat wave so I couldn't adjust my watering or protect any plants.  I was told it reached almost 110 in Long Beach.  Amazingly only a couple plants got sun burned.  A couple of my blackberry plants wilted.  My Grumichama has burned leaves all over it and dropped a lot of fruit.  My two foot Sharwil Avocado also got burned badly.  A couple of my mangos got burned but nothing too bad.  And my Lemon Zest keeps dropping almost all its fruit.  They split and then drop off the tree but I guess that is for another post.

Bill

My LZ on Florida Turpentine rootstock did that for the first several years. After spraying it with a systemic Fungicide, it appears to be producing what appears to be normal Mangos without the cracking.

The temperatures have been very warm ever since the heat wave began and my plants are growing like crazy.

Simon

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