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Messages - Pancrazio

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Mexicola avocados for sale
« on: February 11, 2018, 06:23:31 PM »
Pancrazio, I have a 25ft Mexicola in my front yard. If you would like seeds from the tree mailed to you i could do that...unfortunately it ripens in November or so. You could get my seeds and overwinter them in tall grow pots and plant them in the Spring. Hit me up if you would like some. My tree is near a busy sidewalk and is usually picked clean of any low hanging fruit, so I would have to get the fruit picker out. Chris

Thank you very much for your kind offer. This forum always prove itself filled with helpful people.

That's a letter showing what was packed.  Dr. Mary Lou Arpaia is a world class U.C.R. fruit developer with a specialty in avocados, breeding for improved varieties.  She is in charge of the extensive U. of California avocado museum or collection along with her curator Julie Frink.  She works with commercial farms across the world like S. Africa, Australia, Israel, etc.  She may be a good source for connections in Spain or may be able to mail you scions.  Kicker is postage.  I hit the ceiling when by surprise they mailed me an overnight FedX package of scions at a cost of near $100 U.S.D.  Shipping is gonna be a stickler, scions are free.

Thank you very much, I'll try to write her. Firstly, I will ask to my local university if they may be interested in backing me up. Maybe with some official role the chance for a positive answer will increase. Yes, i know that shipping overseas, can get pretty expensive especially if done as express package. I won't forget when some years ago i have been asked for 600 for the shipping of 4 plants (i didn't bought them BTW  ;D ). Well i guess that fruit growing is a pretty cheap hobby but it has its expensive moments.

Pancrazio did you check Viveros Blanco in Spain?

Thank you for your suggestion Jose. Yes, of course i tried. As I tried with Canarius, Aguacate vivai, Frutales tropicale, pepiniere du bosc, and so on. Well, the fact that they don't ship is a big issue, as you imagine since they are thousands of km from me. But even if they are able to ship i won't place an order because as you see and it's clearly stated in their page that they mexicola plants are seed grown. They aren't Mexicola; they are, at best Mexicola's seedlings. But here's the catch: I suspect that by the term "mexicola" they refer just to a mexican race avocado. I talked about that with Solko in one of my previous attempt to locate a source for that plant in the eu and we both agreed on that. So at this point before doing a big effort to get a plant from spain and not being sure that it is actually a mixicola, i prefer to do a relatively smaller effort and try to get a plant for US and be actually sure of its cultivar.
After that hopefully i can become a source of scions for people in the eu.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Mexicola avocados for sale
« on: February 10, 2018, 01:27:25 PM »
Thank you for your kind offer.
Also Mark thank you for your addresses and pdf.
It's an interesting list of plants. Personally, i not always find easy to understand the fruit that ripens before winter and those which need to overwinter on the tree. The latter i think is not feasible in my place. Mexicola is attractive for me also for the reason that i can really hope to harvest the fruits before cold weather damages them.
Moreover, Mexicola is the only one for which i have been able to find consistent and reliable scientific paper detailing its cold hardiness. For other cultivars cold hardiness is more an anecdotal matter. But not gonna lie, sure Stewart is interesting.

Mark what is the paper you included? A nursery or a research facility? Do they ship outisde US?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« on: February 10, 2018, 01:02:00 PM »
This is very interesting. Everywhere i have read that such grapefruit was way more tender, but it looks like it is on par with oranges. Since The fruits are already very good in november, at least at mu place, it proves a fine addition to my plants!

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« on: February 10, 2018, 07:25:37 AM »
Gotta add to this topic, in my garden a Oroblanco/Sweetie grapefruit has withstand -3C without any adverse effect. It is grafted on PT and grows in the ground.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Mexicola avocados for sale
« on: February 10, 2018, 07:20:34 AM »
Hi everyone.
As usual, in this time of the year i look for the new planting for my garden. Avocado is my objective now.
As much i have been searching in Europe, i haven't been able to find a genuine Mexicola avocado. Part of the problem is that for some mistake, in Europe "Mexicola" is used as the generic name of mexican race avocado, so I get several nurseries that sell mexicola avocados but often they reveals themselves to be just seed grown mexican race avocados. But i want a true, grafted, mexicola avocado.
So, it there anyone here knowing about a nursery selling the true grafted Mexicola avocado, and willing to ship oversea with the necessary documentation?
It's a long shot, i know, but for real, i have been searching for that plant for the last 6-8 years.
Thank you.

If you guys/gals are serious about growing Bannanas in very cold zones, perhaps you would consider indoor culture. Select an excellent tasting dwarf variety and grow it under lights.

We have members growing tropical/subtropicals in places like New York, Ohio and even in areas of Japan where it snows. Members have harvested fruit from Lychees, Mangos, Citrus as it was snowing outside.

This is only feasible if you have enough indoor space but if you are going through all this trouble to grow Bannanas, you might as well grow one with top quality fruit.


I managed to fruit a dwarf namwah outside, with a absolute minimum winter temperature of -6C. Leaves went to be toast but stems survived. I think that some limited success can be obtained also outside, if you are lucky enough to have short cold spells. Also, I'm further north than New York, so my winter nights are pretty long. I say that much depens on how well you plan winter covers and how much care you are willing to give during winters.

Does this happens on new leaves or just on older leaves? I'm asking because this is remarkably similar to my spring leaf loss. Older leaves just turn yellow, show sign of necrosis (black spot) and detach. I think this is part of the normal cycling of leaves, if that's is the case.
If this happens on newer leaves i would be more worried. I that case i would probably go with copper too.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus varieties in order of cold-hardiness
« on: June 24, 2017, 09:14:19 AM »
Gotta say, making a list of cold hardiness in citrus seems very difficult. I personally wondered, since citrus are influenced so much from enviromental variables, how do you even compare the hardiness? To get a reliable list,  people should grow a BUNCH of different citrus, in rows, very close each other, on same rootstocks (ideally a dormant one, like the poncirus, so you are sure they are in same physiological stage when winter comes) under the same fertilization program, with plants of the same age. I doubt that something similar has been done, except maybe in research center, but still, research centers on citrus usually are in place so warm that some species aren't tested to the true extent of their cold hardiness.
The fact that i live in a place that has a proper fall, helps a lot with acclimation, and i think this may explain some discrepancies i see from here to the US.
Grapefruits, at least some of them, seem to be as cold hardy as orange if not more. I think a lot of people mix "heat seeking" with "frost tender". Grapefruit may need a lot of heat to make decent fruit but they don't seem bothered by frost. The only problem it's that you get acidic fruits.
Kumquat are really hardy compared to other fruit bearing citrus but fruits can be damaged from cold.
Lemons and oranges are on par. I see very sparse oranges there here, as much sparse as lemons tree.
Clementines are more hardy thank people give them credit to. I had one this winter that went to -7C (my nights in winter last for 14 hours) with just frost cloth and it didn't even flinched. It is grafted on bitter orange. Ironically i had a tahiti lime planted very close to that plant, own roots. Some twig dieback but the plant didn't even die to the ground.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: The best tasting orange for coolder climate?
« on: January 04, 2017, 05:48:18 PM »
If i recall correctly US119 could have some problems with fruit splitting, but i'm unsure.

Woah, Laaz, that's a beautiful fruit.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: This place is dead...
« on: December 22, 2016, 07:54:12 AM »
Femminello lunario has a distinct advantage for those living in cold areas, tough. When in 2011 we had a cold snap and all my lemons got defoliate, I haven't had a single fruit on any other lemon during the following winter, except for femminello lunario: this plant, as soon as re-leafed, resumed blooming, and even if its fruiting was sparse (which i also have found it is the case, at least on my pot bound plants) it never missed a single year.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« on: December 17, 2016, 08:25:59 AM »
glad you saw this. Hopefully I will be able to get a good plant in few years. I'm particularly happy to see that you plant managed to remain outside so long. I guess our climate are pretty similar judging from the other plants i see in the pics. I would prefer a little more "dome shaped" plant but i guess i can prune it in the shape i prefer. The fruits indeed look very nice. Do you know how much they can hold on the plant? The decorative effect isn't secondary for this one.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Cara Cara Navel Orange
« on: December 16, 2016, 08:25:48 PM »
Can't wait to try one. I did buy a grafted plant last October. I hope to graft on PTFD next spring to plant in ground. We will see.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: How much cold can citrus trees tolerate
« on: December 16, 2016, 08:17:50 PM »
I think that's really hard to come up with anecdotal evidence if grapefruits are hardier than an orange. The reason of this is that while the relative hardiness may be in doubt, i think all of us agree that acceptable grapefruit need more heat than oranges; now, the places that in winter are colder, usually have also less total heat, so grapefruits aren't exactly a desirable plant there, and most probably got replaced, so in any given time there are few plants of grapefruit that are grown in paces where oranges can't.
The difference in anecdotal evidences may also be related to physiological factors that have nothing to do with hardiness. Grapefruit in general are more vigorous so probably spend more time than oranges growing. Even if hardiness while dormant would be superior, they may be anecdotically reported has more tender because is more probable to see one of them with frost damage due the longer time the plant spends growing? I'm doing a wild guess here, nut i also guess that a good rootstock may play an important role here.
Reading around however I got the impression the grapefruit can do better than orange in cold department.
However, in my city with temps going every several years and then around 14F, citrus are relatively rare (with the notable exception of the bitter orange). Oranges don't grow here, few plants have started to happear in last 4-5 years which have been exceptionally warm.
Recently I have found this plant that reminds me of a grapefruit. Seems seed grown, I haven't been able to inspect it, except from the road.

This isn't a 5 years old plant, and in 2011 we went to 12F.

The sometimes you get the unexplainable. I have a Tahiti lime that seems to have survived 24F; a small cutting, own roots, good place but nothing exceptional. Will keep an eye on it.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« on: December 16, 2016, 07:40:53 PM »
My Bloomsweet is doing beautifully till now. On PTFD, north exposure, it is dealing beautifully with cold snaps we had till now (Temps ranging from 30 to 24F). It is the biggest one.

My main concern is, if it remains so vigorous probably the place where i though it could be planted will be too small. I hoped to have a plant no taller than 2,5/3mt (8-10ft max).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« on: November 09, 2016, 09:37:19 AM »
I'm not really sure how the thing will turn out. While theoretically oranges shouldn't grow here, given in fact the temperature you list, but a neighbor of mine has a orange tree planted in his garden since at least 5-6 years, and it managed to survive several freezes. I guess because our autumn last several months and plant acclimate pretty well? However, last winter the sweet orange plant survived this:

without even losing a leaf. And the plant wasn't even close to a building. I guess that the fact that it was a plant in a sheltered location covered from northern winds could have helped, but still. I'm not sure if that's just dumb luck from his side, but a this point i'm willing to experiment with several citrus and see if i can manage to grow some too.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Opinions on poncirus trifoliata root sensitivy
« on: November 09, 2016, 09:29:17 AM »
I want to join Tom in complimenting for the pic. It's awesome.
Regarding FD, I honestly hope it will dwarf the plants. I don't mind a runt that I can cover easily since i'm outside a citrus growing zone, and my garden is definitively small (way smaller than i'd like, at least) so a big plant would be essentially unplaceable.
This, and cold hardiness, make the FD an hard-to-beat rootstock for me. Clorosis is of course a major concern, but you have to admit that a not clorotic plant is pointless if dies back during winter, or you don't have enough space to to grow it.
Sour orange is indeed tempting. In my understanding, tough, is very vigorous. So i'm thinking to use it on the most unpromising citrus on the cold hardiness department; so if they die back to bud union, they can hopefully recover swiftly.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos
« on: November 05, 2016, 04:57:03 PM »
I will attempt, next spring with a in-ground planting of Hirado Buntan and Oroblanco/Sweetie grafted on the same Flying Dragon rootstock.
I hope at least one of them will survive and to be able to show/clarify if any difference in hardiness exists among those plants.


End of Summer:

Hopefully at least the hirado buntan should survive. I hope to be able to cover effectively the graft point even in the case of snow, that's why i grafted so low on the stem.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: old forum archive
« on: October 15, 2016, 03:59:02 PM »
It's really a pity. Even if the forum was closed, having the database in "forum format" make search a consultation way easier. No, i wouldn't be able to recreate the db from scratch. Ideally if there were a surviving copy or backup of the database the only thing needed would be finding a suitable host. I guess that the amount needed to keep online a low traffic forum would be relatively easy to collect.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: old forum archive
« on: October 15, 2016, 08:21:47 AM »
I guess an updated database backup copy doesn't exists? Because otherwise it could be relatively simple for me to bring all the forum back to life on a new server. There were a lot of informations there.

Hey newgen, in my understanding all citrus do relatively well in container, if you willing to accept slightly smaller fruit than field grown plants. My suggestion if you are going to grow them in container is to by/get a plant grafted on a dwarfing rootstock (poncirus trifoliata flying dragon should do the trick) to have a plant easier to keep at a more manageable size.

Wow very cool. If cattleianum in ground won't do, i think i'll go with this one!

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Pomegranate grafted on dwarf pomegranate
« on: September 27, 2016, 06:14:10 PM »
Here  dwarf pomegranates are common in nurseries, but just as ornamental purposes, fruit as you said is small and in the best case insipid, in worst case downright acidic.
I have a small hedge of dwarf pomegrantes that are about 30 years old, but they aren't even 2 feet tall. I attempted maybe once to taste the fruit but never bothered since.

I have bought the plant i used for this experiment from the nursery, so i cant' really comment on it. I kept it just for few days before grafting. It had maybe 2 fruits, big about as golf balls.

The clone i grafted on is an heirloom variety, planted by my granpa, don't know the name. I have a limited experience in pomegranates, but all the people of the neighborhood say that this clone is actually very good, and since i enjoy it too (fruit sweet with just a little tannin tone) i'm interested in reproducing it. The fruit aren't very big, i would say they are orange sized.

If this methid could keep the plant at dwarf size, it would be great. Considering the size of the stems of my 30 years old dwarf pomegranates i would say that if this works, you could expect a full sized pomegranate at 6 feet tall max without pruning. IF this works: that remains to be seen.

I'm not the best grafter and pomegranates have been around for a long time; looks impossible to me that Im the first one thinking about this, so my conservative guess is that this at some point doesn't work. Compatibility issues is my guess.
However so far so good, so let's see how things develop.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Pomegranate grafted on dwarf pomegranate
« on: September 27, 2016, 04:18:41 PM »
Update, as requested. The graft was performed around 9th of September, and now i'm happy to confirm that something moves around the graft.
I have noticed a HUGE production of callus that is visible under the parafilm (hardly in this picture, but the green hue is callus):

Few days later (today) one of the scions (cleft graft) shows some growth:

I know that this is too early to say "it's done" but at this point i feel confident enough to say that the graft looks "technically" a success, and i'm going to assume than any further problem may be due to the lack of compatibility between the regular pomegranate and the dwarf one.
Now it remains to be seen if the dwarf rootstock will dwarf the pomegranate, but i don't see why it shouldn't.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Where to get a Naghal date plant?
« on: September 24, 2016, 05:18:48 AM »
You obviously know a lot more on this palm than me.  ;D
I'm just curious because apparently it is a very early clone and if i could get some small plants to try it in my climate i would like it very much.
But if it is a new variety i'm going to assume it is patented in any way?

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