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Topics - SoCal2warm

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / some pictures from Jim's place in Vancouver, WA
« on: September 23, 2019, 01:52:37 AM »
These are some pictures from jim VH 's place in Vancouver, WA, right across the bridge from Portland, Oregon.



Flying Dragon (A)



Prague Citsuma (B)


close ups of Prague Citsuma

(C)


(D)


(E)


Changsha mandarin (F)


Citrumelo (G)

close up of citrumelo

(H)


( I ) this might be citrangequat


bark damage on base of Yuzu caused by prior cold winter (J)
The tree is about 7 feet tall, thick and healthy, with some green smaller underripe fruit on it.

2
Pisang Ceylon banana growing in Southern California


It's huge, about 8 to 12 feet tall (depending on how you measure it).
still has not fruited yet


Won't give the exact location but will tell you it's a little south of Irvine, about 12 to 15 miles away from the coast. The climate zone is solid zone 10, between 10a/10b.

It was sold as 'Pisang Ceylon', and while I am always skeptical, the exact leaf appearance seems fully consistent with other pictures of Pisang Ceylon I have seen. (i.e. It doesn't look like the average Icecream banana)

3
I've noticed that Poncirus hybrid seedlings are slower growing than other seedlings.

I've been growing a large number of different seedlings, so I think I can make this observation.
I've grown 2 seedlings from US 852 (Changsha mandarin x trifoliate), 3 seedlings from Tai-tri (taiwanica x trifoliate), 2 seedlings from N1tri (ichangensis x trifoliate), and without exception they have all seemed to grow very slow, certainly relative to other seedlings.
I've also been growing numerous seedlings from Ichangquat (kumquat x ichangensis) and a few cuttings from C. ichangensis. The Ichangquat grows very vigorously, even more vigorously than Yuzu, which also grows vigorously. The C. ichangensis cuttings have grown relatively slow, but reliably, with steady, healthy, and continuous growth. I do also have one seedling from Thomasville citrangequat, it has grown about as fast as kumquat, only about medium vigor. Unfortunately I don't have any pure trifoliate seedlings to compare to.

I think this should not be surprising. When two different plant species are hybridized together that are farther apart from each other in terms of relation, the result is often offspring with a slower growth rate and slightly stunted, or often with generally poorer health. It's presumably due to slight incompatibility between the genetic makeup of the two parents, since they are so distantly related (This is termed outbreeding depression )

Obviously Poncirus trifoliata is less related to the general citrus family than other citrus species are.

For comparison, taiwanica is vigorous and fast growing, and Changsha mandarin is a little slower growing but its growth is very reliable and healthy.
C. ichangensis is also slower growing (slower than Changsha mandarin) yet with very healthy reliable steady growth.
The trifoliate hybrid seedlings are all even slower growing than C. ichangensis, and do not have as healthy reliable robust growth.

What's interesting here is that since I am growing seedlings of hybrids, we are possibly getting to examine the effects in the F2 generation.
I believe some of these seedlings may not be nucellar.
I know citrangequat is said to always have nucellar seed, but my seedling (I harvested it from the fruit myself) seems to have mostly normal unifoliate leaves, with only two malformed bifoliate leaves, reminiscent that it has some trifoliate parentage in its ancestry.
Around half the Ichangquat seedlings appear to have obviously variable leaf morphology, so are almost certainly zygotic.

I do also have a Dimicelli cutting (probably either a citrandarin, F2 citrandarin seedling, or maybe second generation citrandarin cross with the tangor 'Temple Orange' , its exact origins are a little ambiguous) and it has been growing rather slowly, though with steady reliable growth.

The only trifoliate hybrid I have grown with vigorous robust growth is Duncan citrumelo (trifoliate x grapefruit) but even it is not as fast growing as grapefruit (in warm growing conditions).

I know this is hardly a controlled scientific study, but I believe with the number of seedlings I have been growing, this is strongly anecdotal, and this generalized observation may have value.

Maybe someone here (I am sure there are plenty) who has grown Poncirus seedlings can comment on how they grow compared to other citrus seedlings.

If Poncirus hybrids tend to be much slower growing, it may be of particular importance to try to select the most vigorous seedlings in hybridization attempts. I believe there is a strong correlation between level of vigor and ability to recover after cold damage.

4
This seed came from Ilya, from an Ichangquat.
But I just noticed something, there was a tiny bifurcation in one of the leaves (something I immediately recognized from my mostly monofoliate citrangequat seedling), and when I looked closer I realized there was also a small bifoliate leaf, with two leaves coming out of the petiole. Obviously this isn't characteristic of Ichangquat, so if it came from Ichangquat, it had to have been pollinated by something else. I know Ilya has a big 5* Citrumelo tree in the vicinity.




My Ichangquat seedlings have been quite variable in leaf morphology, so I know the seeds from Ichangquat must be zygotic, at least about half of them. This is the first one that's shown any indication of likely trifoliate leafed parentage though.

Maybe Ilya can shed more light on this.

5
Citrus General Discussion / unusual seedling with elongated leaves
« on: June 10, 2019, 12:20:01 AM »
This is a seedling from a Shasta Gold mandarin, a triploid variety, which rarely ever has any seeds.
At first I thought something else was growing in there, perhaps a weed, but then I saw on closer inspection that it was citrus. I had planted two germinating seeds in there.

These are both seedlings from Shasta Gold but one has unusually elongated leaves. Perhaps it is aneuploid.
The other has very thick stubby leaves and reminds me of what tetraploid citrus might look like.
Funny things can happen when you grow citrus seedlings from triploid cultivars, and I don't think Shasta Gold produces nucellar seeds.
All of the Shasta Gold seedlings I've tried growing (let's just say I went through a lot of fruits to get those seeds) have turned out weak and slow growing, oftentimes kind of stunted, unusually so. I don't think that's a coincidence.

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / ichangensis x Satsuma ?
« on: May 07, 2019, 05:45:06 PM »
I found out there is an ichangensis x Satsuma mandarin hybrid in a private collection. The cultivar is named 'Liudmila'.


Gene Lester is an 85-year-old former engineer who has a large private collection of different citrus varieties on a 12 acre property in the hills above Watsonville, California. He has about 250 citrus varieties.

It's not open to private visitors, but if you are a member of the California Rare Fruit Growers organization once in a while they organize tours to visit the collection.

Gene grew up in Alhambra, studied mathematics at the University of California Los Angeles, and worked in software management for IBM for nearly 34 years. He moved to his current orchard in Watsonville in the mid-1980s.
He also supplies Manresa, a high-end restaurant in nearby Los Gatos, with locally grown fruit for its annual citrus themed dinner, which he attends. Volunteers from CRFG help him upkeep the orchard.

source:
Serious About Citrus, Farm & Ranch Living, January 1, 2019, by Jill Gleeson


The plant grows in the Gene Lester citrus collection in California and was named after a friend. It is a beautiful and productive ornamental with a dense shiny foliage of large leaves and plentiful fruit that hang singly or in clusters of 3 to 9.

The flower buds show a hint of purple when quite immature but the flowers have no purple shade. It is also unusual in that new growth is yellowish green.

The friend who gave this plant to Gene says the peel is edible. It lacks the typical acrid oils of most papeda peels. The fruit and taste are quite similar to yuzu but whereas yuzu drops its fruit quite early the fruit of 'Liudmila' stay on for a long time. In the present writer's opinion it is an ideal compact citrus plant for the dooryard and perfect as a pure ornamental.

source:
Ichandarin 'Liudmila', Citrus Pages website, Jorma Koskinen





However, there is some doubt about whether this is actually an ichangensis hybrid.

After consulting a citrus specialist at the UC Riverside Gene Lester later came to the conclusion that because of the sweet edible rind and the vestigial petioles it is more likely to be a citron hybrid, and thus closer to Rough lemon.
The source plant is in a back yard in Redwood City, CA and 'Liudmila' might just be a runaway rootstock hybrid.

Redwood City is on the border of zone 10b/9a but has cooler temperatures.

However, I do know ichangensis was formerly available from Rolling Rivers Nursery in Oakland, just 22 miles away from Redwood City, so the ichangensis possibility may not be completely implausible.

I'm not sure whether this cultivar may be worth investigating.


Not sure whether it's worth posting this here but a passing reference to 'Liudmila' was also made in PalmsNorth.com by Cameron_z6a_N.S. , (location: Halifax, Nova Scotia) , posted May 15, 2013 :
" Some of the hardier types include the Glen Citrangedin, SanCitChang, Liudmila Ichandarin, Yuzu, Yuzvange, Yuko, Tai x Tri Hybrid, (Clem x Tri) x Clem, etc "

which shows that this cultivar was known about at least 6 years ago.

7
Temperate Fruit Discussion / going to attempt plum x cherry hybrid
« on: May 06, 2019, 01:55:53 PM »
I'm going to attempt to cross Green Gage plum (6n) with Sweet Cherry (2n), which should result in a 4n chromosome offspring.
 Then cross that with sour cherry (4n), in this case Juliet in the Romance series of cherry hybrids.

8
Citrus General Discussion / Giant citron
« on: April 22, 2019, 03:51:11 PM »
This was grown from seed:


Giant Yemenite Etrog citron probably produces the largest citrus fruits, they can get even bigger than a pomelo.

The inside of the fruits are mostly all pith though (with some seeds), very little to no juice pulp.
This cultivar is a pure species variety of citron, not a hybrid.

From pictures I have seen, the fruit size can get as big as an adult head.

( Banpeiyu is another Japanese pomelo variety that can produce very large fruits, as big as a child's head, but the fruits of Giant citron can get even bigger, even if not consistently so)

It has been a very fast grower.

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Ichangquat and Ichang papeda
« on: April 16, 2019, 01:23:00 AM »
My three Ichang papeda cuttings have all begun to show signs of leafing out. Here's one of them:


They are just small cuttings, but the cups are covered with plastic cling wrap to hold in the humidity, and the cups are inside a warm mylar lined grow tent enclosure in a warm room.

These are Ichangquat seedlings:


I have to say most of the Ichanquat seedlings are very vigorous growing, I think even more vigorous than Yuzu.
Now there are a few Ichangquat seedlings that are not as vigorous growing, and it certainly seems the Ichangquat seedlings show more variability than Yuzu seedlings.

The leaf characteristics on the Ichanquat seedlings also show variability. 2 of them looked semi-narrow, a little bit like kumquat, one of them looked narrow like kumquat, a few seem to have slight winged petioles like Yuzu, one of them with a slightly bigger winged petiole maybe more like pomelo, but the remaining six seedlings all seem to display rather ordinary leaf type. It's as if the two leaf characteristic traits of the original species parents cancelled each other out.

These seedlings are of course the second generation from the cross between Ichang papeda x kumquat.

(Much thanks to Ilya for the seeds)

I have been grow very many other types of seedlings and the only ones that are near as vigorous growing as Ichangquat are lemon and Oroblanco grapefruit.
(I've grown a few of each, so I think I have a large enough pool to make some statistical observations)

I have two US 852 (Changsha x trifoliate) and two TaiTri (Taiwanica x trifoliate) seedlings and they haven't seemed to do as well, only moderately vigorous growing and they've all displayed leaf yellowing.

Unfortunately I can't comment on Ichang papeda seedlings since I've never grown them. Vigor is a good sign for cold hardiness, I believe, although obviously not all vigorous citrus are cold hardy.

10
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Passe Crassane pear
« on: April 14, 2019, 08:54:42 PM »
Here's a rare pear variety, 'Passe Crassane', which is actually a pear x quince hybrid



solid zone 10, Southern California
It did produce two fruits last year but they did not really fully ripen, and then fell off the tree. Neither of the fruits contained viable looking seeds.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Hardy citrus on other rootstocks
« on: April 06, 2019, 10:02:12 PM »
We know about hardy citrus on trifoliate and Flying Dragon trifoliate rootstock, but how much do we know about hardy citrus on other trifoliate hybrid rootstocks?

How do you think hardy citrus would do on Tai-tri or US 852 (Changsha x trifoliate) ?

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / trying to root C. ichangensis
« on: April 03, 2019, 01:31:21 AM »









13
Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Ugli fruit seedlings available
« on: March 22, 2019, 07:45:56 PM »
Jamaican Ugli fruit small seedlings available, grown from seed

can't ship to citrus states or Europe
free, but you pay for shipping


seedlings are not in the best shape but should survive if you give them proper care

14
Citrus General Discussion / Shasta Gold mandarin
« on: February 13, 2019, 05:41:24 AM »
I've just been enjoying a few Shasta Gold mandarins. I have to say, this is one of the best varieties, in my personal opinion, and I'm not a fan of most mandarin varieties. I'd probably rate this my 2nd or 3rd favorite mandarin variety after Satsuma and Kishu.

The fruit size is very big, it's easy to peel, the skin is a deeper reddish-orange color. The fruits have a characteristic flattened shape. The flavor is very tangy, aromatic in the way of an orange, a bit tart and very flavorful.
I'd say the level of aromatic aroma is almost as high as a Page mandarin, while the type of aroma is maybe somewhere in between a Page mandarin and an orange.
These are very nice to snack on.

I've read some comments from a few people saying that Shasta Gold has an off-taste, but I don't think this is so. Might just be a personal preference thing.


Shasta Gold originated from a cross between Temple Orange and a tetraploid version of Dancy mandarin, which was subsequently crossed with Encore mandarin. (Temple orange is actually a tangor)
Shasta Gold is a triploid variety, which explains its seedlessness (there might only be 1 seed out of every 5 fruits).

I've tasted Tahoe Gold and didn't think it was as good, not really anything special.

Just for additional comparison, I'm not a big fan of Gold Nugget, despite all the hype and some people claiming they're really good.


I've tried growing two Shasta Gold plants from seed but the seedlings from this variety seem to be very week and don't grow very well for some reason.

15
This topic came up in another thread, and I'd like to discuss how to use Yuzu.
First I want to say Yuzu is a wonderful unique citrus, with a unique flavor. But those who do not know how to properly use Yuzu may not be able to appreciate it.

I never found a good use for yuzu & cut both my trees down.
And you never bothered to do any research to see how Yuzu fruit are used?
Sure I did, and still couldn't find a use for them. I'm not going to float them in the bath & as far as a good tasting citrus, it isn't.

Yuzu is definitely not a fruit for direct out of hand eating.

I slice up a Yuzu, remove all the seeds (there's a lot of them but it's not difficult because the seeds are so big), then chop up the fruits further and cook them into a citrus marmalade sauce to spread over fish. With Yuzu there's no need to remove the rinds, indeed there wouldn't be that much useable part of the fruit left if you did so. The rinds have a lot of flavor, and are a lot more tender, less bitter, and more edible than lemon or orange rinds would be.
This isn't unusual. Sometimes mandarin peels and even orange peels are used in stir fries in Chinese cuisine, mostly to impart flavor but it won't hurt if you eat some of it. However the rinds of Yuzu are much more edible.
Not quite like the kumquats but I would say they are only a little less tender than mandarinquats.
I actually enjoy taking a few table out of the peel of a fresh Yuzu.

Yuzu is most typically used for flavoring. It's really in good in Japanese-style ponzu sauces for dipping.
Typically the entire fruits are crushed, with the juice and essential oils from the rind collected. (It would probably be even better flavor wise to remove the seeds first before crushing but that would add more work)
There's not a huge amount of juice inside a Yuzu, and this is in large part because there are so many large seeds.

Yuzu kosho is great on egg rolls or omelettes. Yuzu is also good in salad dressings.

Also good for soba (buckwheat) noodles or Japanese noodle bowls with fish.

Lemon juice can substitute for Yuzu in most recipes but the flavor is just not the same.

Also there are some great recipes for candied Yuzu peel, which are much like candied citron.
You could even bake these into a cake, and I have a great tasting recipe for Yuzu blueberry muffins.

If you're still not sold on Yuzu, you might see this video for inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdUq2AVLEn8

I'm sure Yuzu has (or could have) all sorts of other culinary uses as well.



16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Might Kaffir Lime be hardier than we think?
« on: February 01, 2019, 04:30:59 PM »
There are a lot of people in colder climates who would like to grow a lime tree. Unfortunately for them, and something almost none of them realize, limes are the very least hardy out of all the citrus groups commonly sold in a supermarket. If you wanted to try pushing the boundaries and see if a citrus tree might be able to survive in your marginal climate, a lime tree would be the very last thing you'd want to try.

But that being said, Kaffir lime is not actually a true lime.
Regular limes descend from an ancestor called Citrus micrantha, which has very little tolerance to cold. Kaffir limes, on the other hand, descend from a different ancestral species, Khasi papeda (Citrus latipes ) which grows a bit further inland at a bit higher elevation.


Quote
This citrus species, C. latipes (Swingle) Yu. Tanaka is locally called as Soh Kymphor by the Khasi tribe of Meghalaya. This fruit is bitter sour in taste and commonly consumed raw. But, in a few local Khasi villages of Laitjem and Sadew, this fruit is eaten between meals, usually blended with finely cut tender leaves of mustard or radish with chillies, sugar and salt to taste.
Here are a few traditional uses of this plant:
The leaves of this citrus plant are boiled in water until the water turns green. Then this water is used for bathing, to relieve body aches, fever, common cold and headache.
The citrus fruit is peeled and boiled in water, then it is cooled and strained using muslin cloth and stored. This decoction is used by diluting it with water and consumed orally to cure stomach disorders, constipation and skin problems. It is also applied to heal chapped and dry skin.
The juice of the fruit is mixed with mustard oil and used as balm on the forehead and the nose during a fever or cold, to lower the body temperature. It also acts as an antiseptic when applied to cuts and wounds. 
https://explorers.zizira.com/wild-citrus-fruits-meghalaya-uses/

If you look at the leaves of Kaffir lime, they have huge winged petioles that are very reminiscent of Citrus Ichangensis (a notoriously cold hardy species). I don't know but this suggests there might be a distant relation. (Now of course this doesn't prove cold hardiness. Citrus micrantha itself also has fairly large winged petioles and is the last thing from cold hardy.)
(Note: I don't believe the C. latipes in the UCR collection is fully representative of the species in the wild, in terms of leaf shape)

This is a botanical drawing of Kaffir lime, note the leaf shape:


[another little thing I'll point out about the difference between C. micrantha and C. latipes is that C. micrantha has off the charts levels of furanocoumarins, which no doubt explains why lime juice is so photosensitizing; whereas Kaffir lime has only extremely low levels by comparison, based on this one fact alone one could infer different ancestry]

I've seen various different sources, some listing Kaffir lime as zone 10 (like most ordinary citrus) and some indicating it can survive down to zone 9.
The very fact it could be grown in zone 9 would indicate it is much hardier than ordinary limes.

Kaffir lime is rather a less common variety, so I'd imagine there hasn't been a lot of experimentation investigating whether it can survive in marginal climates. Probably most everyone just assumes it is going to be like any other ordinary citrus.

I suspect however that Kaffir lime might have a similar level of cold hardiness to Meyer lemon.
(And if that's the case there is a possibility it might be able to survive outside in urban areas of Vancouver, B.C., but I'm getting ahead of myself)

This entire thread is very speculative.


A comment left in a discussion about Kaffir lime:
________________________________________________
December 21, 2010, jbwaters from Dallas, TX wrote:

I love this plant. I have had one in a pot for about 12 years now and it is still thriving. Mine fruits and I have been extremely successful with starting new ones from seeds -- i plant them directly from the fruit into moist soil -- about 95% sprouted and are either in the ground or given as gifts. In the summer, I have mine in dappled to direct sun until late afternoon and have positioned it so that I can see the Giant Swallowtails laying their eggs on it from my kitchen window-- their ceterpillars look like bird droppings. My tree is easily big enough to share with them. It doesn't seems to like our Texas sun as much as my Satsuma Orange does.

And despite the fact that the kaffir lime shouldn't survive freezing temps, I planted one in a slightly protected area near my house and despite records snows in Dallas, TX last year (12 inches over night that lasted with well below freezing temps for several days), the kaffir lime tree came back! They got about 2 feet tall with very little water or attention. So this year I planted more in the ground to see how they would do. My fruiting tree stays in the pot though as she is a rare thing to find and stays in the greenhouse once we hit 40 degrees until we are reliably in the 50s.
________________________________________________
https://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/67460/#b


The leaves of Kaffir lime are very useful for cooking with in Southeast Asian cuisine, used much the same way that bay leaves are.
(Unlike the leaves of other citrus, kaffir lime leaves are very mild and don't have the characteristic harsh astringency of other citrus leaves, which is probably reflective of its papeda ancestry)
The fruits, on the other hand, are much lower quality than normal limes, though not terrible (they just have somewhat less of the characteristic lime flavor, and a very slight amount of bitterness), but the fruits are sometimes valued for the zest that comes from the rinds. The zest is better than that which would come from regular limes.

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Some rare variety hardy seedlings
« on: January 31, 2019, 11:27:19 PM »
These are some seedlings I'm growing:
Kaffir lime, Yuzu, Ichangquat, US 852, one of them is a Thomasville Citrangequat and one is an N1tri


These are a Ventura Lemandarin (back) and Dimicelli seedlings that Eyeckr gave me. They're putting on new growth.



They're inside a grow tent.
(I measured the temperature difference and it's 7 degrees (F) warmer inside the enclosure than inside the room it is in)

18
Citrus General Discussion / Enjoying some Nova Lee mandarins
« on: January 31, 2019, 10:22:56 PM »
Enjoying some Nova Lee mandarins.
The flavor is reminiscent of Page mandarins, but the flavor is a bit more subtle. Makes for a good dessert mandarin.
It's not too difficult to peel, though not quite as easy to peel as some of the other "zipper skin" mandarins.
Seems to be completely seedless.

Altogether, I'd say this is one of the better varieties of mandarin. One to include in your collection if you're only growing four or five varieties.

Something about it almost sort of reminds me of a dekopon.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Citrange growing in Philadelphia
« on: January 31, 2019, 09:12:24 PM »
These are some pictures of a Citrange growing in the Philadelphia area, outside unprotected.
Supposedly this variety is actually a cross between a Mandarin and a Citrange.
It was planted in 2003. It died back one winter a few years ago and has probably since died completely in the severe 2017/2018 winter.



It's semi-evergreen, meaning only maybe 20 percent of the leaves yellow in fall.
There are thorns in there too. Some of the leaves appear to be trifoliate.
The first fruits appeared in 2007, and there were three fruits that year. The next year there were twelve, and thirteen fruits the year after that.



The fruits even get a chance to ripen to nice glossy orange. They contain plenty of seeds.
Unfortunately they taste bitter and sour, not very edible.



This is just a repost of an old thread from another forum:
http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/threads/my-citrandarin-tree.7372/#post-121801

I don't know if there's any chance this tree could have been a Dimicelli.
The original post said his tree was a cross between a Mandarin and Citrange.
I have a Dimicelli seedling and from the research I've been able to dig up about it it supposedly came from a cross between Temple orange and poncirus, which was then crossed with a Clementine.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland
« on: January 21, 2019, 12:13:17 AM »
Triengen is Northwest of Lucerne, in Northern Switzerland

Thomasville Citrangequat on left, Keraji bushy one on right

They are both up against a wall, and it looks like they can be covered during the Winter.

closer view of Thomasville Citrangequat


Yuzu



Swingle Citrumelo in Schaffhausen, Northern Switzerland, North of Zurich

It was planted in the ground two and a half years before this picture was taken and had not been protected, relatively exposed. Suffered light leaf damage the second winter but recovered again very strong, but had not yet had flowers.


Ichang papeda in Erfstadt, just outside of Cologne, Germany (still zone 8a)



German language forum: http://www.exotenundpalmen.de/t1228f5-quot-winterharte-quot-essbare-citrus.html


(I don't think hardy citrus normally grows well in these areas, but can if it's in an ideal or protected spot)

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / A few super-hardy C. ichangensis hybrid seedlings
« on: January 19, 2019, 02:06:41 AM »

Citrus ichangensis x Poncirus trifoliata (N1tri) seedling



kumquat x C. ichangensis (Ichangquat) seedling



some Yuzu (C. junos) seedlings
Yuzu has a really close genetic relationship with C. ichangensis, it may even be descended from it (possibly as a result of genetric introgression from another C. reticula-like citrus species). Some see Yuzu as a C. ichangensis hybrid (constituting an Ichandarin), although it's certainly not a direct hybrid. Yuzu isn't quite as cold hardy as C. ichangensis, maybe but it is a more vigorous and fast grower and can easily recover from damage. Also the leaves of C. ichangensis smell nothing like Yuzu, although they do share a same distict "deepness". Otherwise the smell of C. ichangensis leaves are very mild (maybe a bit like Kaffir lime leaf) and a bit lemony. The leaves of Yuzu are practically like petitgrain (strong, green, harsh, petitgrain is made from the leaves of bergamot citrus). The fruits of Yuzu are very fragrant though (like a mixture of sour orange, Satsuma mandarin, lemon, and maybe a hint of grapefruit sweetness, and also it is a pungently deep spicy smell).

22
This was grown from a seed from a pomelo I got at the supermarket. This pomelo variety definitely wasn't the ordinary Chandler. The smaller flattened shape of the fruit made me think it was probably Reinking (though I can't be absolutely sure).

Check out the size of those winged petioles!



I don't think I've seen a pomelo with petioles that big before.
Almost reminds me of Ichang papeda.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Graft chimeras and hardy citrus
« on: January 16, 2019, 10:57:18 AM »
How much do we know about graft chimeras and hardy citrus?

Graft chimeras are a sort of hybrid, but not a genetic one, between two different species that resulted through grafting, typically from growth offshoot coming out of a graft union area and then separately propagated. The graft chimera is comprised of a mixture of cells between the two citrus types.

There are different types of graft chimeras. The most homogeneous ones, and the ones of most interest are periclinal chimeras, which typically involve a single layer of cells distributed throughout the growth of the plant.

I'm also experimenting with joining together different seedlings together at the earliest stage of their development, so that the seedling sprout consists of a mix of cells from two sources. (This takes some very fine precision and a good eye)

How much hardiness can a cold hardy variety confer to another normal citrus variety when they are part of a chimera together?
Could this be a viable strategy for developing new cold hardy citrus?

From what I've seen, many obscure citrus varieties that are believed to have originated as a graft chimera have not actually been confirmed as being so, so it's not truly known with certainty.
The only way to be sure is if there's obvious phenotypical differences in different parts of the tree, or on different parts of the fruit, but in that case its not a very homogenous chimera, and not a periclinal type of one, which would be expected to give the best hardiness because the cells are more evenly distributed throughout the plant.

Say for instance we had a Satsuma graft chimera together with a Satsuma-trifoliate (citrandarin) hybrid.
The Satsuma-trifoliate hybrid within the chimera system could be a triploid with only one of its three sets of chromosomes coming from trifoliate.*
That could potentially make the resulting chimera nearly indistinguishable from normal Satsuma.


* (This could come about through hybridizing a tetraploid Satsuma with a normal diploid trifoliate, or the pollen may have been unreduced coming from the Satsuma, or the female parent being used could have been a "seedless" triploid, and so any rare seeds that did manage to form would be much more likely to have originated from an unreduced female gamete, since triploid cells that undergo meiosis have a fairly high chance of turning out aneuploid and won't develop. Also, you have to have a non-nucellar citrus variety for the triploid to turn out seedless, otherwise the seeds are still going to form from nucellar tissue even though the zygote failed to develop.)


Prague Citsuma is believed to be a graft hybrid, but it has not yet been positively confirmed with certainty. (A few basic tests were done but were inconclusive)


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Cold Hardy Citrus / More unusual/obscure cold hardy citrus hybrids
« on: January 13, 2019, 12:28:17 AM »
Let's talk about some of the more unusual and obscure complex hybrids.


Dimicelli - I'm not exactly sure where this one comes from but it's believed to either be a citrandarin or, more likely I've read, someone remembered it being a Clementine cross with CiTemple.

"The common tangerine is the hardiest of the dessert citrus, and was a possible source of genetic material.  The first attempt was Clementine x P. trifoliata, and these survived, at least in Franklin at 0F (-17.8C)and in Houstion at 5F (-15C)to fruit following the freeze of 1989.  They seem to be hardy to five degree above zero.  Several siblings, 'Dimicelli', 'Backyard' and 'Hardy Fruitful 90 have received the dignity of names."
The Hardy Citrus of Texas, reported by C.T. Kennedy from the notes of John R. Brown, M.D., article in Fruit Gardener, page 14

CiTemple is a Temple orange x poncirus cross, Temple orange actually being a tangor that has zygotic seeds and thus a suitable choice for female parent in hybridization efforts. I've read some references to "CiTemple edible" which was considered particularly good tasting variety for a citrange.

Ventura Lemandarin- This is believed to be a cross between Tiwanica lemon and either Keraji or Satsuma mandarin.
Ventura lemandarin is sour, like a lemon.
Seems to be a vigorous growing variety. Supposedly when it was high grafted onto poncirus it managed to survive a brief 6 F event with branch die-back, according to one report.

According to genetic marker studies, Tiwanica lemon seems to really be a sort of sour orange, with pomelo-type gene indications. It originated from Taiwan, and was named Nanshodaidai in Japan. The fruits are as sour as a lemon.
Both Keraji and Satsuma are closely related in ancestry, Keraji having even more cold tolerance than Satsuma, though smaller more sour (and seedy) fruits.

Glen citrangedin- This was an early citrange x calamondin cross.

" The first hybrids were between Poncirus trifoliata and varieties of the cultivated orange. They were called "Citranges" and while they received a good deal of publicity when they were first introduced they may be said to have been more encouraging than useful. The fruit, though beautiful to look at, was scarcely larger than that of the Trifoliate Orange, and while the juice, taken by itself, could be used as a substitute for lemons, there was even in the hybrid so much musky oil in the rind, that special precautions had to be taken in opening the fruit. Another bad trait of the hybrid was its too quick response to warm weather in the early spring. It was, therefore, crossed with two other citrus fruits, which, though not so hardy in other ways, were slower to start into growth m the spring. These were the Kumquat, Fortunella japonica, and the Calamondin, Citrus mitas, a tropical citrus fruit from the Philippines. The triple hybrids which resulted were called "Citrangequats" and "Citrangedins" respectively. The most promising hybrid yet introduced is among the latter group and has been named the Glen Citrangedin, from Glen St. Marys, Florida, where much of the breeding work has been done. It has small fruits about the size and flavor of a lime, but colored like an orange. The rind is without even a trace of the musky oil which characterizes the original hybrid and the tree is hardy at least as far north as southern Georgia. This artificial cosmopolite, uniting the possibilities of the Chinese Poncirus, and Philippine Calamondin with the common orange, is the "farthest north" which has as yet been achieved by the plant breeders. "
Arnold Arboretum Harvard University Bulletin of Popular Information, Series 3, Volume VI, November 5, 1932, article: Growing Orages in Boston, page 45, Edgar Anderson

I don't know about good tasting though. I was given two of the fruits and they had an unpleasant aroma, like rubber and baby wipes that made them inedible to me. The same with many other poncirus hybrids.
If they had been grown from seed it's possible they just reverted to a more bad flavored type, so I can't be completely sure if the fruits were truly indicitive of the original Glen citrangedin. Fruit size was also incredibly small, tinier than big sized kumquats.
Thomasville citrangequat was infinitely better.

MIC (Minneola x Ichang papeda x CiTemple Edible) -
I believe this was bred by Dr. Brown, who first crossed Ichang papeda with CiTemple Edible, and then crossed that with Minneola Tangelo.

(I have a seedling cultivar of this, may or may not be exactly the same as the original MIC, but unfortunately haven't had the opportunity to see any fruits yet)

Minneola tangelo isn't exactly a real cold hardy variety, but they are a bit hardier than oranges.

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Fresh seeds available, several different varieties, only available for the next 5 days
$5.50 for >5 seeds, probably more

White grapefruit (probably Duncan or Marsh) - gold standard of grapefruit flavor
Melogold
Ugli Fruit
Satsuma mandarin (only 3 seeds)
Yuzu (only 3 seeds)
Kaffir lime (not a true a lime, cold hardier than regular limes, down to zone 9)

For best chances of germination and fastest germination time, begin sprouting as soon as you receive them
You are most likely to have 100% germination rate with these (although the Yuzu has been in the refrigerator for over 3 weeks now, which might affect chances of germination).

Also willing to trade, if you have any super cold hardy variety seeds (or will have them in the future)

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