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Messages - Ilya11

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 18
1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus tachibana
« on: March 18, 2019, 07:17:54 PM »
Yuzu has many different clones with a large variation as to winter hardiness.
Highly grafted Keraji is more resistant than satsumas and average Yuzu; in my garden it was not damaged during  two seasons with episodes of ~10 days without soil defrost and night temperatures of -9°C.
During them one of my Yuzus  was defoliated, another got severe frostbites.

2
It is certainly depends on the species origin , but in some cases (also) there is a distinct correlation between apparently non related features.


3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 18, 2019, 06:41:12 PM »
I think there is also a high potential for the hardy decorative citrus with fragrant flowers and shiny autumn fruits.

4
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Using up those Citrangequats!!!
« on: March 17, 2019, 05:15:56 AM »
Yes, at this stage you can eat it as a whole.

5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 16, 2019, 01:36:25 PM »
Looks like you have something extremely hardy. I would graft it on poncirus in order not to lose due to potential bark infection.

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Using up those Citrangequats!!!
« on: March 16, 2019, 05:46:01 AM »
Last week I harvested fruits from Thomasville branch grafted on clementine tree  in the South of France (zone 9b).



It seems that they are fully ripe by now, very juicy, ratio of sweetness/acid like that for the orange navel, 14° Brix, aromatic.
Albedo is sweet with some  faint bitterness, outside rind smells  like a mix of kumquat/orange. Not a single note from trifoliata grandparent.
The main drawback of Thomasville is this late ripeness  that is very close to Nagami.



 

7
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Problems this morning.
« on: March 13, 2019, 04:25:07 AM »
We discussed a similar problem on French forum
http://www.agrumes-passion.com/ennemis-agrumes-f50/topic6233.html

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 11, 2019, 12:55:11 PM »
I'm pretty sure Satsuma is marginal here, the one I have that was covered is grafted onto dwarf rootstock so I'm pretty sure that's poncirus.
The Keraji seedlings were both grown from seed and on their own roots, obviously.

Admittingly the Satsuma wasn't the biggest or mature, and the Keraji seedlings were certainly small seedlings, but part of that is demonstratrative of the lack of growth from the short growing season in this climate.

Many years ago I was like you, trying to "acclimatize" the small seedlings in the ground, but found that this is a dead end. The approach is quite good for selection among hybrid hardy seedlings, but small conventional citrus  will not survive long term under zone 8 conditions.
It is much more efficient to high graft them on poncirus or citrumelo.

Ilya, I believe the climate here is quite similar to France, although a bit more continental, the summers can sometimes get very hot, and the Winters, although for the most part relatively mild, can sometimes have bouts of snow and an occasional sudden temperature drop over the night. This Winter was a bit unusual. Most years the snow doesn't stick to the ground very often, but this year was virtually a snow storm for a week. Branches in the trees broke from all the snow.
Where I live ( Paris region 48° 32′) the climate is remarkably close to that of Seattle (47° 36′)
Satsumas are marginal, but possible to cultivate with some fleece protection.
We also had a heavy snow this year, but spring comes very early, ponciruses already  start to push buds.

On another hand, in Portland (45° 31′ ) meteorological conditions are very close to those of Bergerac ( 44° 51′).
Sylvain who lives there, has a remarkably large collection of citruses, including satsumas in his garden. They are fruiting and giving a rich harvest.

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 11, 2019, 04:23:04 AM »
I'm curious as to why Satsuma couldn't survive.

I am quite sure that Keraji and most probably early Satsumas are the long term hardy in your area.
But for this they should be high grafted ( more that 50 cm) on poncirus rootstock , preferably grown in situ to preserve a long taproot.

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 10, 2019, 06:16:16 PM »
Good news.
Let's hope that spring will not bring  infection at the frostbites.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Variegated Poncirus
« on: March 10, 2019, 06:09:13 PM »
1) If it is a real chimera in this case I am curious to know what is the chimeric factor producing this effect ?
Somatic mutations in genes responsible  for chlorophyll production.
If the state is not stabilized by eventual emergence of  periclinal chimera  with  only one embryonal layer affected, the plant will either become entirely green or dye.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Variegated Poncirus
« on: March 07, 2019, 08:22:58 AM »
What I see on the photo posted by Florian is  a mature plant with side branches. Usually infected seedlings either overcome disease or die at very early stages.

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Variegated Poncirus
« on: March 07, 2019, 03:39:41 AM »
Yes, it is well known fact that variegated citrus seedlings are due to the fungal infection of one of the three embryonic layers. Fungus is interfering with chlorophyll synthesis,but this is not a mutation. It is not resulting in periclinal stable chimera, since fungus is either cured or spreads to other layers. True chimera due to the gene mutation are extremely rare, usually they arise as variegated branches in adult plants. In Japan they selected Snow Dragon poncirus that is true pereclinal chimera.


http://florawonder.blogspot.com/2014/05/return-to-carolina.html?m=1

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Variegated Poncirus
« on: March 06, 2019, 01:52:16 PM »
No, I believe this is a genuine chimeric plant.

15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: March 01, 2019, 03:48:58 PM »
Albinism in citrus seedlings is mostly due to the infection by Alternaria fungus.
 Treatment with fungicides  greatly reduces the presence of white or mottled seedlings. 

16
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Tiny dragon flying dragon trifoliate
« on: February 25, 2019, 12:06:59 PM »
It is probably what is called "rosette-type" seedlings
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjshs/74/3/74_3_189/_pdf

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
« on: February 24, 2019, 08:51:51 AM »
Ilya11, do you suppose the modest fruit size contributes to the early ripening? My thinking is there may less time lost in expanding fruit size, allowing early maturity. In colder regions, early maturity is of paramount importance, as severe cold temperatures would completely destroy the fruit. The ideal super cold hardy citrus tree needs to retain almost all of the positive characteristics of Poncirus, while discarding the negatives.

Thick albedo in the first crops of new citrus cultivars is not unusual. Although fruit size may remain constant, albedo thickness might decrease.
It certainly can be like this, but I am trying to prove the opposite by backcrossing it to 5star or even crossing with Sarawak pomelo.

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
« on: February 24, 2019, 08:42:03 AM »
Really cool! Thanks for the information and the pictures.
What exactly is the Citrumelo 5star? (Ponicirus trifoliata x ? )

It is an open pollinated seedling of Swingle citrumelo. It is extremely hardy and although does contain some amount of internal oils, can be used for a  jus or a  curd for the tarts.
http://citrusgrowersstatic.chez.com/web/viewtopiceb1b.php
Not 100% zygotic, but after castration and cross pollination yields a  decent number of zygotic seedlings.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
« on: February 23, 2019, 04:02:11 PM »
Unfortunately they are highly polyembryonic, but pollen is fertile,  I have already several seedlings of its backcross to 5star.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Might Kaffir Lime be hardier than we think?
« on: February 20, 2019, 03:45:15 AM »

Second from the left- Combava

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Might Kaffir Lime be hardier than we think?
« on: February 19, 2019, 06:28:03 PM »
Hystrix has nothing to do with sour orange.
It is a species apart with close relation to micrantha.
I believe C. hystrix originated from hybridization between C. latipes and some sort of sour orange (likely within the C. aurantium group).


It is a species apart with close relation to micrantha.
You are in error. Regular limes have close relation to micrantha. Kaffir lime is in a different group from regular limes.

(C. micrantha and C. latipes though are closely related species, but they are original separate species)


This is just from my memory, and I can't seem to find a source to substantiate this right now.
I suppose it could be possible I am wrong, and not remembering correctly.

I am able to find the following sources of evidence:

entry for C. latipes [Khasi papeda]
A plant much similar to C. hystrix in the habit, leaf, floral and fruit characters.
There are no striking differences, except that C. latipes has comparatively smaller leaves and fruits, and more number of seeds (30-60 per fruit) than in C. hystrix.
C. latipes is native to North East India (Meghalaya: Khasi and Garo Hills; Nagaland) and Northern Myanmar.

Indian Ethnobotany: Emerging Trends,  Jain, A. K., p257


I think measured furanocoumarin levels also support the idea that C. hystrix likely did not descend from C. micrantha.

Here you can see in this study, that looked at different types of furanocoumarin levels, that Kaffir lime (listed as its synonym Rangpur lime) did not even group with the C. micrantha admixture group including regular limes:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0142757&type=printable
(The Distribution of Coumarins and Furanocoumarins in Citrus Species Closely Matches Citrus Phylogeny and Reflects the Organization of Biosynthetic Pathways, Audray Dugrand-Judek)

The levels in both Khasi papeda and Rangpur lime are extremely low, while the levels in other limes are very high, and the levels in C. micrantha are extremely high, higher than any other citrus by a large margin.

The level of cold hardiness also suggests Kaffir lime has more in common with C. latipes than C. micrantha.


However, I am also looking at another study which seems to group C. hystrix first closest to C. macroptera, then to C. micrantha, and then to C. latipes, in that order.
( Nicolosi E., Deng Z., Gentile A., La Malfa S., Continella G., Tribulato E. Citrus phylogeny and genetic origin of important species as investigated by molecular markers. Theor Appl Genet. 2000;100:1155–1166. )

cpDNA seems to inexplicably group C. latipes much closer to traditional citrus so it's possible there could have been introgression into the C. latipes gene pool, which could explain why it doesn't group closer, but maybe that theory is a stretch of an explanation.
(What I mean is maybe C. hystrix descended from a more pure C. latipes that existed in the past, and the C. latipes accession that exists today are not as pure)


If you look in the graph in Figure 3 of this study you can see that, unlike other limes, Rangpur lime does not seem to have any relation to C. micrantha.
Phylogenetic origin of limes and lemons revealed by cytoplasmic and nuclear markers, Franck Curk Frédérique Ollitrault Andres Garcia-Lor François Luro Luis Navarro Patrick Ollitrault, Annals of Botany, Volume 117, Issue 4, 1 April 2016, Pages 565–583
(it's the smaller bar graph in the middle, fourth from last)

The Encyclopedia Britannica has this entry:
"The mandarin lime, also known as the Rangpur lime (C. ×limonia), is thought to be a lemon–mandarin orange hybrid..."
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QhSA4vLf7RUJ:https://www.britannica.com/plant/lime+&cd=19&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

First of all Kaffir lime is Citrus hystrix, and is sometime also called Combava.
It has nothing to do with Rangpur lime (C.limonia). Citrus latipes is another papeda and it is also not a Kaffir lime:
"Citrus latipes, commonly called "Khasi papeda",[2] is sometimes mistakenly identified as Kaffir lime (C. hystrix)" Wikipedia

The levels and signatures of furanocoumarins in micrantha and hystrix are the closest among many citruses studied and they are clustered together:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0142757
Citrus latipes (Khasi papeda) is completely different in this respect.
 You certainly need to be a true believer to suggest that Kaffir lime is a cross between latipes and soar orange

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Might Kaffir Lime be hardier than we think?
« on: February 19, 2019, 12:25:00 PM »
Probably what kaffir lime has most going for it is its vigorous growth, since it's basically a hybrid of sour orange with C. latipes.
How  are you able to generate  such false statements?
Hystrix has nothing to do with sour orange.
It is a species apart with close relation to micrantha.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 04, 2019, 03:15:35 AM »
At least some of them will sprout from the roots. For me, the most promising is  the last plant, for the first three the stems are already damaged.

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 02, 2019, 05:18:54 AM »
Poncirus contains several gene regions responsible for its freeze resistance and its genome is highly heterozygous. That is why  F1 hybrids with citrus are showing a large variation for winter hardiness.
Three hundreds of its F1 hybrids with very frost sensitive pummelo show a wide distribution of freeze damage.

 article



Quite possible that C35 citrange inherited a rather unfavorable set of gene alleles from its poncirus parent explaining its poor winter performance.

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: February 01, 2019, 06:26:06 PM »
At least  all your C35 nucellar seedlings will be dead, C35 is probably the least hardy of all citranges.

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