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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: I Have My Changsha
« on: July 15, 2019, 02:01:09 PM »
  Stan Mckenzie listed his owari satsuma as 12F hardy, while Justfruitsandexotics listed owari satsuma as 16F hardy. Why is there a difference?
My Satsuma definitely did not survive 12F here in the Pacific Northwest, even though it was covered, and the minimum temperature was likely higher than that (maybe 14F, can't be precisely sure).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 14, 2019, 04:24:33 PM »
keraji seedling, leaves are a little bigger, putting on new growth

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 11, 2019, 06:34:54 PM »
Here's the little leaflet growth coming out of the Ten Degree tangerine.

I held up a piece of fabric as a background so the tiny green bud could be better seen.

Although this particular branch the bud is growing on is grey, most of the rest of the branches look like a healthy live green color.

So this shows that Ten Degree can technically survive through a cold winter here, although it has really not been doing well.

That tiny leaflet you see in the picture is the only leaf it has right now.

Maybe someone reading this can use these observations to gain some better inference about Ten Degree's level of cold hardiness.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 11, 2019, 06:21:22 PM »
So that little fellow made it without bring on a root stook. Go Keraji!
Yes, although it was covered, with a cut out clear plastic water bottle. Though it was a colder Winter than usual here and the covering was buried in snow. The top of the seedling almost completely got killed back, though one little leaf at the very bottom of the stem appeared to survive until April. And I do believe that leaf grew just a tiny little bit bigger. Unfortunatley due to an accident, the seedling got cut back down even lower towards the ground, so it lost that one tiny leaf that had survived through the winter. So what you are seeing now are little tiny leaves that have regrown since the start of July.

Another Keraji seedling that was somewhat bigger did not survive. It was also covered, but planted in a colder spot in the yard that did not get much winter sun (with the low angle of the sun in the winter making that spot more shady).

I know this may be a lot of detail, but all this specific detail is important to be able to infer things about exact level of cold hardiness.

The seedling that survived was maybe 5 inches tall, while the seedling that did not survive was maybe 6 or 7 inches tall.
 The first seedling was killed back by the late February freeze to only 1 inch of live green stem, that was half brown on one side, but still had a tiny green leaf on the other side. Due to an accident, it then got cut down even lower, to maybe three-fourths of an inch.

So what this seems to show is that small Keraji seedlings, on their own roots, will probably not survive here very well, even when given some light cover. But it's probably just on the border of what they are able to survive.

I don't know if these experimental observations may be useful to someone else in another climate.

My limited experiments certainly seemed to suggest that Keraji has a little less cold hardiness than Yuzu.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: trying to root C. ichangensis
« on: July 09, 2019, 07:51:44 PM »
the cuttings are growing very well, getting bigger and look very healthy

This seed came from Ilya, from an Ichangquat.
But I just noticed something, there was a tiny bifurcation in one of the leaves (something I immediately recognized from my mostly monofoliate citrangequat seedling), and when I looked closer I realized there was also a small bifoliate leaf, with two leaves coming out of the petiole. Obviously this isn't characteristic of Ichangquat, so if it came from Ichangquat, it had to have been pollinated by something else. I know Ilya has a big 5* Citrumelo tree in the vicinity.

My Ichangquat seedlings have been quite variable in leaf morphology, so I know the seeds from Ichangquat must be zygotic, at least about half of them. This is the first one that's shown any indication of likely trifoliate leafed parentage though.

Maybe Ilya can shed more light on this.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 06, 2019, 09:11:35 PM »
the very small keraji seedling, recovering from the winter damage and the top accidentally being cut off of it. Less than an inch high but four small leaves on it

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Geothermal Greenhouse
« on: July 06, 2019, 03:15:22 PM »
To heat with electric power you can use a heat pump ( also known as an air conditioner used for heating ) wich is up to 400% percent efficient.That means with 1 kw of electric power you get 4 kw of heat.with a ceramic heater for 1 kw of electric power you get a bit less than 1 kw of heat.
Yes, of course. I was considering mentioning that. But a heat pump has a much higher initial cost.

Actually, heat pumps combined with geothermal work really well together. It's easier to pump heat out of the ground that is 40 degrees than to pump heat out of air that is 10 degrees, let's say. This has been used to heat some homes, and do so very efficiently.

What a lot of people may not realize is just because something is cold doesn't mean it doesn't contain a lot of useful heat that could be used to warm things using a heat pump.

However, if the heat pump needs to be operating the entire night, every night during the Winter, in colder places (and especially northerly climates with shorter day lengths), I still suspect covering everything with thick insulation and using artificial grow lighting during the winter might be more energy efficient, even than a heat pump.

It depends on the specific situation and exact climate conditions. Initial price is also a big factor to consider too, since there might be a theoretically most energy efficient way to do things, but it might involve switching between 3 different strategies at different parts of the year. Obviously you would not really be getting your money's worth in that case. It doesn't make sense to buy a heat pump if it's only going to be used 1 month out of the year, for example. That money might have been better spent on going geothermal. So a lot of trade-offs.

Some greenhouses attempt to put the thermal mass inside the greenhouse, but it can be difficult or impractical to do that since a very large volume would be required. (I've looked into it and done some calculations)
Phase change eutectic salts are another possibility, but is generally impractically expensive considering the amount you would need. (I think that would only make sense if you were a large well-funded museum institution)

One last idea I thought of, if for some reason it was too difficult to dig into the ground, is have a smaller separate part of the greenhouse with a very large tank of water that was well insulated. Water would be circulated around in pipes. During the middle of the day, when the greenhouse is at its hottest, the water would be circulated to cool the greenhouse and absorb heat back into the insulated tank. Then during the middle of the night and early morning, the water would be circulated again to release the heat stored in the tank. This strategy would prevent the water in the tank from immediately releasing all its heat early in the night, and would also allow the greenhouse to heat up faster in the morning, without the cooler water keeping the temperature down. This could possibly help solve the problem of the greenhouse not having enough thermal energy to adequately heat the water for the night.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: satsuma I brought today
« on: July 06, 2019, 05:21:14 AM »
Is there a really difference of taste for each type of satsuma?
I recall reading a taste study, which found that Owari was equal to or better than any of the other Satsuma cultivars.
So no need to worry that you might be missing out on some obscure Satsuma cultivar you've never tasted.

Maturity of the tree probably makes a bigger factor than specific cultivar variety when it comes to flavor. The flavor peaks at between 7 to 12 years, and very slowly gradually continues to improve after that.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Geothermal Greenhouse
« on: July 06, 2019, 04:59:53 AM »
In terms of electrical power, it takes far more energy to heat than to circulate air or water around.

In fact, I have speculated that in cooler climates, like say Iceland or Alaska, it might be more energy efficient just to use artificial lighting and completely enclose the structure in thermal insulation (at least during the winter). It takes more energy to heat than to provide the necessary light for growing.

But of course there's also the trade-off between energy efficiency and cost. In many cases it might just be a lot cheaper to have a ceramic heater automatically turn on, as long as it only needs to be on during the coldest nights.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Geothermal Greenhouse
« on: July 06, 2019, 02:10:11 AM »
Thats geothermal but the condensation in the ground should not happen in winter  because the air from the GH its colder than the underground pipes.
Not during the daytime, with full sun.

Even in winter, under clear skies it could get to be over 100 in that greenhouse if things were not vented out somehow.

In the case of geothermal greenhouses, that heat is vented down into the cool ground. At night, that ground, while still kind of cold, is still warmer than what it would otherwise be inside the greenhouse. Things don't need to be kept very warm at night for plants to grow.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Geothermal Greenhouse
« on: July 06, 2019, 12:56:24 AM »
The pipes only need to go 12 feet down into the ground, although  18 to 23 feet is more optimal.
Probably also a good idea to design in a drainage pipe and pump into those pipes, to be able to remove any water that condenses from humidity down there.

It's not so much geothermal heat, more like the earth acting as a thermal battery between night and day. Get some hot greenhouse temperatures and you can pump a lot of heat energy down there during the day.

Here in the PNW, the coldest nights in the winter always come after clear sunny days.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Verry rare walnut
« on: July 05, 2019, 08:43:32 PM »

got these from a guy in Ukraine

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: ISO Dekopon seed
« on: July 05, 2019, 06:53:17 PM »
I went through more than 10 dekopon fruits from the supermarket and didn't find a seed. Never found a viable seed in a Chandler pomelo either.

It's true that grafted trees have substantially shorter lifespans than trees on their on roots. However, a grafted citrus tree, even on dwarf rootstock, should still live well in excess of 20 years, so that wouldn't be a consideration unless you were thinking about the very long term (like if for some reason you wanted a gigantic tree that would still be alive and healthy 40 years from now).

Grafting on different rootstock creates some degree of incompatibility. This limits growth, and forces the tree to divert energy into fruit production. Most fruit trees in the wild don't begin fruiting for many years, since they're focusing all their energy on growth early on.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Anyone growing Oroblanco?
« on: July 04, 2019, 10:05:08 AM »
Yes, it taste good, but Melogold is better and more sweeter than Oroblanco.
From everything I've read, Oroblanco is supposed to have better flavor and slightly less bitterness than Melogold. Melogold is just a better commercial variety due to visual appearance. But I'll just say that may not necessarily be true, without going into the detail of explaining it.

Probably not too much, I would think.

I grafted a low chill cherry onto a regular cherry (in zone 10 where cherry trees do not do well), and the top part all easily came out of dormancy with vigorous growth, but the regular cherry did not seem that much changed from how it behaved before, so obviously the top graft was not so much effecting the tree below.

What the trifoliata rootstock does do is help force the top scion into dormancy. (Although from what I've observed, that does not necessarily mean leaf loss)

But the answer is a little complicated. You ask does trifoliata rootstock affect things, but what are you comparing it to?
Most nursery citrus trees are grafted onto trifoliata rootstock, or trifoliata hybrid rootstock.

Rootstock that has a dwarfing effect (that's usually the point) induces trees to flower and fruit earlier in their lifetime, and that probably also means flowering a little earlier in the season, during the early part of their lifespan.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 02, 2019, 03:32:25 PM »
I see another green bud trying to grow out of the Ten Degree, but none of the other previous buds managed to survive. The plant itself looks like a healthy green color, despite the vissible damage, but still no leaves.

Another cold day today, 61, though it was 82 yesterday.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: a few pictures from the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 02, 2019, 01:54:59 PM »
just planted ichangquat in the ground

Citrus General Discussion / Re: satsuma I brought today
« on: June 30, 2019, 11:33:08 PM »
If it doesn't say, it's most likely the standard Satsuma cultivar, 'Owari'.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hardy Citrus Taste
« on: June 29, 2019, 11:12:57 PM »
Sunquat is a hybrid between kumquat and Satsuma, and may be a tinier bit hardier than Satsuma.
That may be a good one for your climate.

There's also Arctic Frost Satsuma (a Satsuma x Changsha hybrid), which can be a little hard to find, and if you do find it is likely to be kind of expensive.
Mine unfortunately didn't survive here in zone 8a, but this is in the PNW, it got planted outside too early last year and had trouble adjusting to the temperatures, suffered dieback, wasn't that strong so might not have been able to have the energy to survive the following winter, and was planted in a colder part of the yard that got little sun during the Winter. I suspect it would probably do much better where you are.

My personal opinion, with very limited funds, you're probably out of luck.
No one can easily answer your questions, unless your questions are very specific, and you're willing to accept some vague very simple answers.
Your best bet would be to go back and read some of the old things posted here.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Meyer Lemon seed
« on: June 29, 2019, 10:00:32 PM »
Also be aware of why fruit trees are usually grown on rootstock.
The main reason is to have a dwarfing effect, which keeps the tree from getting too big, and forces the tree to start producing fruit earlier in its lifespan, otherwise it can be a long wait for fruit, and the tree will initially divert all its energy into growing very tall, like trees do in the wild.

There probably is a time and place to grow fruit trees on their own roots, but it's not the situation that's usually the most appropriate for most people. Just don't be wondering why you have a big tree and it's not producing fruit yet.

Obviously if you are growing from seed, it's probably not going to be on rootstock.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Meyer Lemon seed
« on: June 29, 2019, 09:53:06 PM »
Since this was posted in the section on hardy citrus, I will point out that lemons are a bit more vulnerable to cold than other common citrus, but Meyer lemon is an exception to this and is probably among the hardiest of the common citrus (that is that is commonly sold in a supermarket).

(and obviously this is talking about regular lemons, not some of the other cold hardy citrus that are sometimes called "lemon", which can get a little confusing)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Meyer Lemon seed
« on: June 29, 2019, 09:44:29 PM »
I've grown many citrus varieties from seed, but inside a special grow enclosure. I don't think they'd grow very fast or be as easy to grow outside.

There are many people who like Meyer lemons more than regular lemons. I'm not one of them. (I'll have to agree with Laaz on that)
To me, Meyer lacks the flavor or a regular lemon like Lisbon, is a bit mild and bland, and if left on the tree too long can develop a slightly off flavor. It might be a personal preference thing. Maybe it's just one of those things people either love or hate.

If you grow Meyer lemon from seed, there's a fair chance it won't taste as good as the parent, because the genetics may not be exactly the same.

In general, lemons do grow more vigorously than other common types of citrus from seed.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hardy Citrus Taste
« on: June 29, 2019, 09:11:51 PM »
"good taste" is relative, and "hardy citrus" is a bit relative as well

Because of this, there's not really a simple answer to your question. (Your question is a little vague)

It might be simpler if you researched the hardy citrus varieties one by one, and first identified the ones that would be likely to grow in your zone and climate.

None of the other hardy citrus really taste as good as Satsuma.

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