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Messages - SoCal2warm

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Changsha mandarin opinions
« on: January 16, 2021, 06:54:28 PM »
I took a picture of Jim VH's Changsha tree.



I believe these pictures were taken at the end of November, sorry I cannot remember and did not keep track.

2
It doesn't matter where you cut & paste from, I have been grafting citrus for over 15 years and this is false.
Okay, well, I will not argue with your personal experience and observations. Maybe your citrus grafted on Flying Dragon are just growing extremely slow and so that is the reason.

The point was that comparing trees which have reached equal size, the one on more dwarfing rootstock will produce fruit earlier, it will not have to grow as big in size to begin producing.

That's not only true for rootstock. Varieties which reach a smaller final size growing on their own roots will generally begin producing fruit much earlier, while at a smaller tree size, like kumquats.

3
It is certainly true for other fruit trees (like apple, cherry). For citrus, it might be less true. Maybe there would only be a difference in the very earliest years.

quote from another site:

"Another benefit of growing mini citrus trees and dwarf cultivars is that they mature faster. A young dwarf citrus tree produces fruit a few years earlier than regular fruit trees."

https://leafyplace.com/dwarf-citrus-trees/

4
Wrong again.
That's not wrong. Relax, Laaz.

5
I found this article, hopefully some of you may enjoy.


   


Growing citrus -- in Orangeburg! It takes work, but he has made it happen
T&D Staff Report
Oct 31, 2020

Steve Katzberg has been growing citrus plants in Orangeburg for years now, even though the area is not known for such.

"The plants I have were collected over several years. I have been growing these in Orangeburg since I moved back to S.C., where I was born," Katzberg said.

"The stories of attempts to grow citrus in the Charleston area plantations were further impetus to do a bit of research. While commercial attempts at citrus, even in the Lowcountry, failed as a result of the occasional cold snap, some oranges, kumquats and tangerines can be found in Charleston and the coastal areas today," he said.

"The citrus that I have collected are from seed given to me by other enthusiasts or purchased from the occasional plantsman who specializes in cold hardy citrus," Katzberg said.

"Before I moved back to South Carolina in 2005, I had been growing some of the specimens, while a few are more recent acquisitions. The transportation of some of the plants was an adventure that might itself be worth retelling. Most of the citrus in my yard have been there for 15 or so years."

Katzberg had more to say about his citrus plants:

"Early efforts to grow citrus commercially were unsuccessful, primarily the result of freezes that destroyed the trees. Still, today, one can find the odd kumquat, orange or tangerine tree growing in Charleston or elsewhere along the coast. Colder areas such as Orangeburg are even less hospitable to growing citrus than Charleston, virtually ensuring even more hopeless results than in the coastal regions, hence, end of story," he said.

Well, not quite.

Over time the accumulation of plant material brought back by plant explorers or produced by hybridizers greatly expanded the universe of citrus to choose from. The United States Department of Agriculture diligently attempted to find cold, hardy citrus that could be grown commercially outside the citrus regions of Florida, southern Texas and California.

"Most of these ended up in the curiosity department or the trash heap," Katzberg said. "A few, however, showed potential, if you accept them as they are and realize that grocery store citrus is limited to the area south of central Florida. Let me repeat this: No commercial citrus variety such as orange, lime, grapefruit or pummelo can long survive outside in the Orangeburg area without heroic protection effort."

"So, what characteristics does a citrus plant have to have to find a home and be welcome in the Garden City?" Katzberg asked. " Well, for starters, let’s look at the environmental restrictions that need to be met. First, the plant must be cold-hardy enough. For commercial citrus, the minimum winter survival temperatures are lower 20s for some oranges, most tangerines, and some grapefruit. For most grapefruit and many oranges, mid-20s is all that can be tolerated. Limes and citron can only survive with cold temperatures in the 20s to lower 30s.

He said, "Orangeburg, named for the Prince of Orange and not the citrus, has a USDA zone 8B climate. That means we can expect minimum temperatures of between 15 degrees Fahrenheit and 20 degrees Fahrenheit over the long haul. Our temperatures have been through cold cycles that lasted for years. The USDA zone map was rocked in the 1980s by several years in a row of extreme minimum temperatures, down to the single digits. The zone map underwent a major revision, which nearly moved Orangeburg into zone 7B. Lately, however, we have been warming up. Global warming? Hard to tell, but it has pushed Orangeburg back into zone 8 again, and upper zone 8B at that."

Citrus fruit freezes considerably above the temperature at which there is wood damage. So hardy tree or not, the fruit could suffer catastrophically every winter with no crop. Late frosts can destroy the flowers as a further torment. Therefore, our second requirement is that the fruit gets ripe before the hard frosts of late November.

Finally, the fruit must be good to eat. Many of the cold-hardy citrus developed by the USDA are so bad that they are, as one man said, "not worth throwing at someone." Some are beautiful in flower, intensely citrus-fragrant and attractive as evergreen landscape plants. One such plant is the Morton Citrange, a cross between a very hardy bush from China called Trifoliate Orange and the extremely desirable Navel Orange. Unfortunately the trifoliate orange has an acrid taste imparted to the resulting hybrid fruit, making it worse than inedible."

"But there are a number of plants that are dynamite to grow in our area," Katzberg said. "Some are as sweet as anything from the grocery store, as useful as a lemon and as exotic as sushi. Let’s start with the sweet ones:

First, originating in China, is the Changsha tangerine (Citrus reticulata). Hardy to well below 15 degrees, the plant grows to a height of about 10 feet with glossy, evergreen leaves. A specimen is known to have survived and fruited for several years in Laurens County. The fruit ripens in mid-October to spectacular deep reddish orange about the size of a standard tangerine. The fruit is extremely sweet with several seeds. It is great eating out of hand, juiced, or made into liqueur; the ripening season extends into November, making possible fresh-squeezed tangerine juice for weeks. The fruit can be stored in the refrigerator for about months, to extend the season.

Second is the Kumquat (Fortunella crassifolia, "Meiwa" and F. margarita, "Nagami"), a smallish fruit that is eaten skin and all. Historically grown in Orangeburg, the Meiwa variety has sweet skin and sweet pulp, while Nagami has sweet skin and tart pulp. The Nagami is also a strong natural antihistamine. Got a cold or hay fever? Pop one into your mouth and feel your nasal passages start to open up. The pulp can be easily scooped out, added to Cool Whip and cream cheese to make the filling for an easy-to-make dessert. A small tree, kumquats grow to about eight to 10 feet in height.

Third is the Ichang Lemon. Actually a cross between exotic Chinese citrus varieties, Ichang lemon produces huge lemon-like fruit, bigger than a softball on trees to over 15 feet tall. In April, the trees are covered with huge citrus blooms that fill the air with fragrance. The plants are extremely hardy, to the low teens, while the fruit ripens in late September to October. Useful from the time they first color up until they fall to the ground naturally in late November, these fruit produce a juice that works great for lemonade, lemontinis [lemon martinis] and pies. For the more adventuresome, the jumbo lemon peel can easily be made into limoncello liqueur as good as any you’ll find at Fulton Five in Charleston. And they can be salt-cured. Moroccans cure lemons as part of their cuisine and you can do the same. Pick some of your jumbo lemons or just shake the huge tree; they’ll come to you. Layered in a glass jar with sea salt, they will last months. Cook with skin-on chicken thighs.

[Note: I think the writer of this article got a little confused here. It seems what they are actually referring to here are the "Ichang lemons" which are hybrids with pomelo, not the pure species Citrus ichangensis]

Fourth, we have the Yuzu (Citrus junos). Highly prized in Japan, these rarely found tart lemon-lime fruit are used to make ponzu dipping sauce, yuzu vinegar and yuzu sours. The plant is about 11 to 12 feet tall, hardy to about 10 degrees and very thorny. Like its cousins, the small tree blossoms in early April.
Fifth is the Thomasville Citrangequat. This plant originated in Thomasville, Georgia, at around the turn of the 20th century and it is rock solid hardy. There have probably never been temperatures in the lower part of the Palmetto State cold enough to kill this tree. Bushy and robust here, the plant is covered a couple times a year with tons of small but fragrant flowers. The fruit ripens in November and sometimes gets hit with a frost. The fruit does not freeze until the low 20s, so generally it is unhurt. If the fruit makes it until late in the year, it can be eaten like a small orange-kumquat. The fruit goes great to cook with pork or, best of all, to make as good an English marmalade as in the "Olde Country." Just slice the fruit, soak overnight, add a little sugar, cook it down and put in a jar. Add a tot of Scotch whiskey to it to make Scottish marmalade. No sipping the Scotch while making the jam. Maybe bourbon would work too. Stuff keeps and tastes great on a biscuit or toast for years.

Finally, the Keraji tangerine. On its own roots, this small tree is like the others in the family but is not reliably hardy here. The fruit is small orange-yellow, extremely sweet and with few seeds. It has a tangerine-mild lemon flavor and makes a great fresh-squeezed juice. Oddly enough, Kerajis grafted onto trifoliate orange root-stock is cold hardy here. Getting it grafted is not all that hard to do, but is a bit outside our lane here.

"As another happy surprise, the plants listed here are 'pass-along.' The flowers are self-pollinating and the plant comes true from seed. Give your friends a seed or seedling from the plants above and they will be harvesting the same delicious citrus in a very few short years," Katzberg said.

"Planting these vitamin- and mineral-packed fruit trees or seedlings is easy. Pretty much any soil that doesn’t stand in water will do fine. A yard with trees off to the northwest or north side helps to keep winter cold off the trees, and a south facing side of the house adds extra protection," he added.

"Since these plants, except Keraji, are not grafted, the odd cold snap or late spring frost might freeze them back, but they will likely bounce back in the summer and be back ripping and snorting in a couple years. Oh, did I mention that pretty much all citrus is thorny? I have the wounds to prove it, so be careful when harvesting."

Katzberg said this guide is meant to acquaint the amateur horticulturist and gardening enthusiast with citrus varieties that can be expected to thrive in the Orangeburg region. Citrus is an abundant source of healthful nutrition as well as adding fragrance and beauty to the garden. The specially selected citrus discussed here are easy to grow, easy to maintain, and reliable for carefree planting.

https://thetandd.com/business/agriculture/growing-citrus----in-orangeburg-it-takes-work-but-he-has-made-it/article_eb841c5d-b40a-5ebb-804a-d726b2a8cc8a.html

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichang papeda tasting / flavor
« on: January 11, 2021, 01:37:19 PM »
I can provide pictures now

 

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: January 10, 2021, 03:36:18 PM »


very small Keraji seedling

It looks like it may be able to survive, if it has enough energy to be able to put out a flush of growth next year.
It seems to have several very little stalks, which are still green.

Ichangquat seedling

It has not done so well, but the several small trunks rising up still appear moderately green. I think this will probably manage to survive into next year, but I am not sure if it will be able to grow out new leaves. The leaves it does have look like a fairly pale yellowish hue of green, I doubt those leaves are functional.

This is another Ichangquat seedling, which I suspected may be an Ichangquat x citrumelo (or possibly some other trifoliate hybrid) complex hybrid.

It seems to be doing much better than the first Ichangquat seedling. very dark green healthy looking leaves.
It was actually planted out in January last year, seemed to do well at first but then defoliated and suffered some branch die-back, but as you can now see in this picture it has fully recovered.
Looks promising, like it will do very well. It's about 18 inches (45 cm) high. seedling growing on own roots


This is the Bloomsweet

still looking okay, not bad, the leaves still look a pretty good hue of green, although not quite as much as a healthy shade of green as it looked earlier in the year.
The other one in the background is a Keraji, which was only just planted in October.


all pictures taken January 10, 2021

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Changsha mandarin opinions
« on: January 07, 2021, 02:18:51 AM »
I visited Jim VH in Vancouver, WA (right across the bridge from Portland) and saw that his Changsha tree was loaded with fruit. Last year it had no fruit. Seems most of his hardy citrus trees are alternate bearing, putting out lots of fruit only every two years. He is in climate zone 8a, the tree is growing closely up against his house. The tree survives there without being covered, might be about 5 feet tall and is very vigorous growing now.
I only tasted one fruit, and it may not have been the most ripe (although it was completely orange), but it was a fresh picked fruit right from the tree.
It tasted like a very low quality mandarin. What I mean by that is, sometimes when you go to the supermarket they might be selling mandarins that are not the freshest, or not very good. Well, this was only just a little bit worse than that.
Which, for cold hardy citrus standards probably is not that bad.
The inside seemed just a little bit dry as well.
Cutting it open, there was a slight fragrance that was rich in terpenes. Jim commented that it smelled a little like marijuana/cannabis, which is probably accurate I think.
I cannot say I really appreciate the flavor of Changsha, but they definitely are edible. It was just like a really subpar variety of ordinary mandarin.
If given to me and I was hungry, I probably would eat them, but I just would not be very enthusiastic about it.
(Again, I am only describing tasting one fruit, one time)

Unlike with Yuzu, the peel of Changsha is definitely not edible. In fact I would say it is even less edible than the peels of Satsuma (even though the peels of Satsuma are not exactly edible).

The tree loaded with orange fruit is very beautiful, when we're talking about a climate where citrus does not normally grow.
As for whether it should be grown for eating, or only has ornamental value, I would draw a comparison here to Arbutus unedo, if anyone is familiar with that.
What I mean is, it's sort of "borderline edible", and you can certainly snack a little bit on the fruits if you like, but you probably will not be very enthusiastic about it, and will probably not be wanting to eat very many of them.

They are just a little more edible than Chinotto sour orange though, in my personal opinion. At least Changsha does not have any bitterness, which Chinotto does a little bit. I don't know if that comparison is helpful. Changsha is a little bit bland though, compared to Chinotto and Yuzu.

Also, of the different type of mandarins, Changsha most reminded me of a Clementine type mandarin.

9
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Shasta Gold Mandarin
« on: January 06, 2021, 06:17:57 PM »
Shasta Gold fruits, purchased from store


10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: January 05, 2021, 05:07:56 PM »
Yuzu seedling

January 5, 2021

The leaves are turning a little more of a yellowish hue of green due to the cold, but still green.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: January 05, 2021, 02:25:49 PM »
January 4, 2021
I saw several Oregon Grape (Mahonia aquifolium) in bloom with big stalks of yellow flowers. (Not all the plants were in bloom, maybe 30 percent of them) I also saw two different varieties of camellia bush in bloom.
Point Defiance Park, Tacoma

December 13, I saw hardy fuchsia bushes in bloom, they seemed to be in the middle of blooming because there were several buds that looked like they were getting ready to open. Was surprised to see fuchsia bushes blooming so late into the year. Also saw a camellia bush in medium abundant bloom in a yard in a nearby home. And a large rhododendron bush with just a few sparse pink flowers on it.
Seward Park, Seattle

I guess it can't really be so cold here at this time of year if there are some things blooming.

12
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Shasta Gold Mandarin
« on: January 05, 2021, 02:13:06 PM »
I've tasted Shasta Gold and Yosemite Gold, from a store, and in my personal opinion, I definitely prefer Shasta of the two. It has a very orange-like flavor, but with a nice sourness, deeper level of flavor, and very aromatic.

I'm pretty sure they had Tahoe Gold one time at that store, which I tasted, but to be honest I might be misremembering and can't be completely sure.
If I did taste it, Shasta Gold was definitely the best of the three.


In case anyone was wondering, this store happens to carry very obscure varieties, so I've gotten the opportunity to taste all sorts of weird varieties there. Some of the varieties are so obscure/unusual I can barely believe they are being sold there.


I was a huge huge fan of Shasta Gold. It was almost as good as the best Satsuma mandarins I have tasted, although it's hard to compare because it's a different type of flavor. (I would say they are not in the same mandarin family when it comes to type of flavor)

13
good news, it's still looking very green and healthy


January 3, 2021

The leaf color looks more of a healthy green hue than even the Yuzu and Dunstan citrumelo (which are the two other best performers for me here). If retaining leaf color during prolonged periods of cold is any indication of level of cold hardiness, this may prove to be very hardy.
(this is growing in Olympia, WA, zone 8a)

The hue of the leaf color is just looking surprisingly green and healthy, I can't get over that fact.

Most of the leaves only have a very small winged petiole, but there is one leaf that has a very large leaf petiole, more reminiscent of Ichang papeda, significantly larger than any that would ever be seen on a Yuzu.

14
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Sugar Belle Orangs
« on: January 03, 2021, 02:32:52 AM »
SoCal2Warm's problem is he is so full of dis-information it will contaminate the forum for years to come.
Laaz repeatedly thinks everything that I say is false, even though he has never shown any evidence of such.

15
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Sugar Belle Orangs
« on: January 01, 2021, 03:44:40 PM »
If anyone likes Sugar Belle, another variety with similar parentage to try is Page.

16
Satsuma (from an old mature tree), Kishu, Minneola tangelo, Shasta Gold, Page, in that order.
Kishu tastes very similar to Satsuma, and I would say Kishu is a close second, almost tying with Satsuma for first place. Satsuma can be very variable in fruit quality and flavor however. You need to get a very fresh picked fruit from an old tree to really be able to appreciate how good the flavor of Satsuma can be. I find all the different varieties of Satsuma to taste very similar. A Satsuma fruit that is not such good quality can taste not as good as all the varieties listed.
Shasta Gold and Page each have a very different type of flavor from Satsuma. Page has a flavor more reminiscent of Minnealo tangelo but more orange and pine needle fragrance.

This list does not include grapefruits and lemons. Valencia oranges can also be very good, but it is hard to rank them and compare them to the other varieties here, since they all have different flavors.

I have also had the opportunity to taste Lee x Nova, and it is very good, better than most other mandarin varieties, but still at least in my personal opinion not quite as good as the varieties here that are listed. But this could be very much a matter of individual preference. (It has, what I would call, a "standard type of mandarin flavor", which is not the same as Satsuma or these other varieties I have listed)
I've tasted both Lee and Nova, and can tell you Lee x Nova is an improvement over its parents.

I have tasted Dekopon, and they are good to snack on, very sweet, but I personally find their flavor to be too "rich", and strangely it doesn't feel like it digests as well for me. I perceive a very subtle mango flavor in Dekopon as well. This is probably very much a matter of individual personal preference.
Probably much better than most mandarin varieties, but I personally would not put it on my favorite list. The flavor is somewhere between a standard mandarin and an orange.

17
Citrus General Discussion / Re: What causes hardened pulp in tangerines?
« on: December 30, 2020, 02:56:20 PM »
Typically I see that when citrus fruits are not at their freshest.
Have you been having cold dry winds? That might be drying out the inside of the fruits.

Also it is known that Changsha doesn't really have the highest fruit quality, but I don't know if that translates into what you are seeing here.
This variety might be more vulnerable to this phenomena of inner drying out, that is a possibility.

Maybe if you've already been having freezes and the fruits have been hanging on the tree too long.

18
Maybe someone in a warmer climate (zone 10) would be willing to pollinate their pomelo tree with pollen from a Dunstan citrumelo?
Someone in a colder climate who has a Dunstan citrumelo that is flowering could mail them pollen.

I think it will take some cooperation between two different members living in different climates.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: 17-11 pummelo x citrumelo hybride
« on: December 29, 2020, 02:56:34 AM »
HortScience 33(4):744-748. 1998
Freezing Tolerance and Growth Characteristics of USDA Intergeneric Citrus Hybrids US 119 and Selection 17-11
Milton E. Tignor, Frederick S. Davies, and Wayne B. Sherman
Department of Horticultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL, 32611-0690

Abstract. Two USDA intergeneric, hybrid citrus scions, US 119 {(Citrus paradisi Mac. 'Duncan' x Poncirus trifoliata (L.) Rad.] x C. sinensis Osb. 'Succory'} and selection 17-11 {C. grandis US 145 x [Citrus paradisi Mac. 'Duncan' x P. trifoliata (L.) Raf.]} on 'Swingle' citrumelo (C. paradasi x P. trifoliata) rootstocks were examined for freeze hardiness traits (4 years) and general growth characteristics (2 years). Hardiness was compared with that of 'Hamilin' orange and Satsuman mandarin from Fall 1993 to Spring 1997. As expected, US 119 and 17-11 were both hardier than 'Hamilin' orange as determined by leaf disc electrolyte leakage (EL). Both showed freezing tolerance similar to that of satsuma mandarin, but 17-11 was significantly hardier than satsuma or US 119 at several times during the 4-year study. Trunk diameter and tree height were similar for US 119 and selection 17-11.

A U.S Dept. of Agriculture (USDA) breeding program in Orlando, Fla., has been developing more freeze-hardy citrus scions and rootstocks for many years.

US 119 survived freezes with -12.2 °C minimum air temperature in 1981 (Barrett, 1990). The trees were completely defoliated at this temperature, but bloomed and set fruit during the following year. We observed similar defoliation in both US 119 and 17-11 following two freezes when air temperature reached -10 °C in 1996. In addition, defoliation occurred to a lesser extent when air temperatures reached -9 °C in 1995. In both years defoliation occurred via abscission at the petiole-leaf interface with the petiole remaining on the tree until the spring flush occurred. This indicates less severe freezing injury than dead leaves persisting on a tree following a severe freeze.

Selection 17-11, in addition to being hardier than 'Hamlin' orange, may be potentially hardier than US 119 and satsuma, and therefore is also a potential parent for citrus breeding programs.

The accompanying picture shows, from 17-11, a single leaf, a bifoliate, and a trifoliate leaf, all three have a small winged petiole at the base of the leaf.
Apparently 17-11 displays a mix of mono and trifoliate leaves.


I tried to copy just the most important parts from the article.

20
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Rest well Gene Lester
« on: December 28, 2020, 09:29:23 PM »
A look at some of the citrus varieties that were growing in his collection:
http://www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=3965.html

21
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Rest well Gene Lester
« on: December 28, 2020, 09:14:33 PM »
I was very interested in his 'Liudmila' variety that is growing in his citrus collection, and wanted to see if it might display any cold hardiness for growing in colder climate. We weren't sure if it was an Ichang papeda x Satsuma cross, or just a citron x Satsuma cross.

Further discussion about that here:
ichangensis x Satsuma ?
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31947.msg351168

22
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Honikan mandarin
« on: December 28, 2020, 09:07:23 PM »
According to yugoslavian sources in 1934 japan consul sent 372 trees of unshiu, honikan and natsu mikan as gift to Yugoslavian kingdom.
This might be off-topic, but I have tasted fruit from a tree that was labled "Natsu daidai". From research I did, I believe this might be the same thing as Natsumikan.
The fruits are big in size. The fruits are like a mix between orange, grapefruit, and sour orange, and have just a little bit more bitterness than a grapefruit. I was able to enjoy eating it, but I'm not sure if everyone would. Certainly something different, a delicacy.  The flavor and aroma were reminiscent of Jamaican Ugli fruit (another type of grapefruit). It would probably make great marmalade too.
It's also worth saying that, unlike with a normal grapefruit, the white pith is sweet and not bitter. They make candied rind out of this fruit in Japan.
The fruit contains a fairly high number of seeds.

The original story in Japan is that this Natsumikan variety originated when a woman on the East side of Japan found a fruit washed up on the sea shore, and grew the seeds.

23
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Honikan mandarin
« on: December 28, 2020, 08:51:24 PM »
I suspected these might be Kishu mandarins, from looking at the picture.
Are they small in size and very easy, almost effortless, to peel, when fully ripe?


I also found this on another Ukrainian forum:
"Adavo has also Honikan, this is most likely Kishumikan too, because it is misspelled variety Hon Mikan form Japan, it was sent to Yugoslavia before WW2, Hon Mikan = another name for Kishumikan."

http://citrusforum.org.ua/viewtopic.php?t=1186


24
Citrus General Discussion / Re: What variety is this Satsuma
« on: December 28, 2020, 07:39:07 PM »
Laaz, I think you are correct, it must be a Seto satsuma. The tree was planted by my dad a while ago (40yrs old) and it gives lots of fruits every year.
I think this may be unlikely. I found a paper that says that both Miho and Seto varieties of Satsuma originated a little bit after that, being grown from seeds in November 1984 and first fruited in 1990.

https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/patiocitrus/satsuma.pdf

Were you saying your tree is that old, or your dad is that old?

25
HardyVermont, Does any Poncirus cause dwarfing or just the flying dragon variety?
All poncirus causes dwarfing, but poncirus Flying Dragon is especially dwarfing.

poncirus hybrid rootstock is typically less dwarfing than poncirus.

Dwarfing forces the tree to begin producing fruit earlier in its lifespan, before the tree grows big, but also often creates a degree of incompatibility that might not always be the best for the health or vigor of the tree in the long term. This may especially be a concern if you care about what the health of the tree will be 10, 15 or 25 years from now.

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