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Messages - SoCal2warm

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1
14 feet tall now, pseudostems are 7 inches thick



2
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Passe Crassane pear
« on: October 16, 2019, 03:25:07 PM »



3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Japan acid citruses
« on: October 09, 2019, 04:45:54 PM »
SoCal2Warm, since I can read and write Japanese to a certain extent, I can confirm that it is NOT call Hanaharu. It is in fact read as Keraji. Japanese can be very confusing at times as there are multiple way of reading the same kanji. Generally speaking, the reading of kanji can be split into Onyomi and Kunyomi. In this case, it is simply read as keraji I hope this clears up any confusion.
Interesting to know. I suspected that.
So there's an alternate way to write "Keraji" in kanji?

4
Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Cocktail grapefruit
« on: October 06, 2019, 07:46:14 PM »
Cocktail is very sweet but doesn't have so much grapefruit flavor. Some grapefruit fans may be disappointed.

5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tiwanica “Nansho Daidai” Lemon Tree (10F)
« on: October 02, 2019, 11:36:36 PM »
That Taiwanica tree in the above pictures has been doing very well at the Georgia Southern University Armstrong campus in Savannah. It's at the corner of Arts Drive and Library Drive outside the Science Center. At least according to the USDA climate map, Savannah is in zone 8b.


In Japan it was traditionally used as an ornamental, sometimes for making vinegar.

The taste is not supposed to be that good, worse than Yuzu, but at least it does not have any awful poncirus flavor.

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tiwanica “Nansho Daidai” Lemon Tree (10F)
« on: October 01, 2019, 09:50:21 PM »
Is there a Taiwanica lemon and a Taiwanica sour orange.
It's the same thing.

Taiwanica is often described as a "lemon" because the skin can oftentimes be yellow, or on the yellowish side, and the fruits are sour. (However it's not a true lemon)
It's probably more similar to sour orange in genotype though, and the fruits definitely can become orange colored hanging on the tree long enough under the right conditions, and they do hang on the tree for a long time.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: October 01, 2019, 08:03:45 PM »
Here are the latest pictures of the Yuzu and Keraji seedlings that are recovering from last winter.

Yuzu

It's a little over 12 inches tall now.

Keraji

Maybe only one and a half inches high, but many leaves.

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hardy citrus growing in Switzerland
« on: October 01, 2019, 12:59:52 AM »
Should be the wall black in winter and white in summer? That would act as a heat sink during the day and increase temperature few degrees during the night when is cold.
I had that fleeting thought as well, but it would probably increase the heat differential between night and day, probably not such a good thing, we want the plants to seamlessly enter dormancy and not prematurely come out of dormancy.

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tiwanica “Nansho Daidai” Lemon Tree (10F)
« on: September 28, 2019, 07:39:58 PM »
I'm just going to repeat myself, so I think I'll just copy & paste from another thread.

On April 5 (2019 ) I talked to Nat Bradford. He used to live in Seneca, South Carolina, which he insisted is zone 7a. (I'm looking at a USDA hardiness map and Seneca appears to be listed as being on the border of zone 8a/7b though, but I pressed him on this point at he was adamant that the location was definitely not in zone 8 )
He said he grew a Taiwanica lemon and an C. ichangensis outside there unprotected, and they have survived for 7 years. At one point he says the temperature got down to 4 °F. He says his Taiwanica lemon survived all this time. I specifically asked if it had survived the freeze in 2017-2018, and he said yes, he had gone back to the property and saw the tree was still there, even though he doesn't live there anymore. The Taiwanica was grown from a seedling and is not grafted. He initially grew them in one gallon pots and left them outside, they survived. Then he eventually planted them out into the ground.
The C. ichangensis has lost leaves and the leaves have turned yellow-brown every Winter, but he says the Taiwanica did not lose leaves.

I was very surprised to hear this.

His Taiwanica has fruited, but he says his C. ichangensis never set flowers.

I also asked how his hardy citrus hybridization attempts have been going, and he said he's been busy and has a few seedlings from his Taiwanica, but nothing else besides that.

This is the same Nat Bradford whose name is connected to the Bradford watermelon, once a famous heirloom variety in the South, and he did an internship at Longwood Gardens in Pennsylvania.

10
Kuganskaya fruit



September 25, 2019

They are not fully ripe yet but I already had one. Yes, I could eat it raw, but it was very slightly astringent and seemed to be pretty acidic, so much so that it kind of hurt my teeth. Flavor was about one third pear, one third heirloom apple, and one third something else, unique to quince.
The skin of these edible raw quinces are not as fragrant as other normal quinces.

I think these special quinces would be very good with even the slightest bit of cooking or pan searing with a carmelized sauce.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: September 25, 2019, 02:26:07 PM »
Here's the Bloomsweet



The leaves are looking a healthier green, but unfortunately it is not looking quite as big as it was last year.

I know it doesn't look like much but showing some of these smaller marginal hardiness varieties can help set a good reference point for what is able to survive here.

September 25

12
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Yuzu lemon question
« on: September 25, 2019, 01:41:45 PM »
This might be useful to you. I just came across this while doing some research and suddenly remembered your unanswered question here.

The Ichandarin 'Liudmila' section on Citrus Pages website (by Jorma Koskinen) says:
"The fruit and taste are quite similar to yuzu but whereas yuzu drops its fruit quite early the fruit of 'Liudmila' stay on for a long time."

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« on: September 25, 2019, 01:33:25 PM »
Here's the thread that contains all the information about Liudmila I was able to compile together.
" ichangensis x Satsuma ? " http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31947.msg351168#msg351168

For some reason the thread doesn't appear in a search when I type in "Liudmila", so it's probably best I share the link here.

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: September 24, 2019, 08:01:29 PM »
I know probably none of you will care, I'm mostly just doing this for my own reference, but here's my tiny little Keraji seedling, now an inch and a half tall.


Of course it isn't much, but it proves how much a tiny little seedling, on its own roots, can regrow after a cold winter and after being killed to the ground.

15
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Daisy Mandarin
« on: September 23, 2019, 09:38:46 PM »
Daisy to me seems to have a tropical mandarin flavor.
It's not my thing, but that's probably just personal preference. I could see how that type of flavor could be appealing to others.

16
Citrus General Discussion / Re: flying dragon vs trifoliate orange
« on: September 23, 2019, 09:35:51 PM »
Good grief. The thorns in the above pic are contorted/curved ......FLYING DRAGON.
I was not referring to the image immediately above my post. Sorry if that was not made more clear.

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Graft chimeras and hardy citrus
« on: September 23, 2019, 03:57:54 PM »
I had a look at jim VH 's Citsuma Prague and I am now strongly inclined to believe this is a chimera.

I've grown many hybrid seedlings, and the leaves will always be either distinctly monofoliate, bifoliate, trifoliate, or sometimes a single leaf might be bifurcated a little bit at the tip, so a form of conjoined bifoliate. The leaf growth generally makes a distinct decision whether any particular leaf is going to be monofoliate or trifoliate.

But the Citsuma Prague leaves I saw, when the leaves were trifoliate, they were all merged together into a single leaf, as if the leaf growth did not have a clear signal whether to be trifoliate or monofoliate, it was a mix of both together on each leaf. Like a compound trifoliate.
Also some of the branches seemed to display mostly monofoliate leaves while other branches displayed mostly the compound trifoliate leaves.
I have not noticed this pattern on my other hybrid seedlings, the distribution of different shaped leaves mostly appears to be random.

I am not an expert on this of course, but my observations, and comparison between Citsuma Prague and other hybrid seedlings, make me inclined to believe this may indeed be a chimera.

I had been a little skeptical before and had wondered if Citsuma Prague could perhaps be some sort of hybrid.


I am now attempting to create a graft chimera between C. ichangensis and Keraji, and between Early St. Ann Satsuma and a special seedling of Changsha mandarin, which jim believes may possibly be hardier than regular Changsha.
I don't know how much success my attempts will have, but it's worth a try. (I suspect actually managing to successfully form a graft chimera would take a lot of trial and error)

My thoughts are if the two are rooting together, from adjacent wood that is healing together, the bud growth might merge together as it is growing out roots.

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu Ichang Papeda cross
« on: September 23, 2019, 01:33:05 PM »
there is a hybrid with satsuma called Ichandarin Liudmila, it's said to taste similar to yuzu.
It might be a hybrid of ichangensis, we're not exactly sure. Its cold hardiness hasn't been tested.
There is another thread started about it, for further discussion.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: some pictures from Jim's place in Vancouver, WA
« on: September 23, 2019, 02:46:59 AM »

jim standing in front of the Yuzu for scale (K)

Cold hardy citrus can grow in the Pacific Northwest.


20
Cold Hardy Citrus / some pictures from Jim's place in Vancouver, WA
« on: September 23, 2019, 01:52:37 AM »
These are some pictures from jim VH 's place in Vancouver, WA, right across the bridge from Portland, Oregon.



Flying Dragon (A)



Prague Citsuma (B)


close ups of Prague Citsuma

(C)


(D)


(E)


Changsha mandarin (F)


Citrumelo (G)

close up of citrumelo

(H)


( I ) this might be citrangequat


bark damage on base of Yuzu caused by prior cold winter (J)
The tree is about 7 feet tall, thick and healthy, with some green smaller underripe fruit on it.

21
Ichang lemon is Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid
As far as I am aware, it has not been determined with certainty whether it's a Pomelo x ichangensis, or Pomelo x Yuzu hybrid.

At least in the DNA marker studies I have looked at, Yuzu shares a close enough DNA marker profile to ichangensis that it was not possible for them to determine or differentiate in this case.
I'm not saying it would be impossible to determine, I'm just saying I'm not aware of a specific study that revealed which of those two the parent was, and was more specific.

Sorry about that though, you are right, I should have clarified that Ichang lemon might not have been a direct hybrid of ichangensis. I thought that might just get too complicated though.

22
Socal2warm, did you taste an Ichang papeda leaf? Does it have strong fragrance or not? How was it compared to a normal lemon leaf and to a kaffir leaf?
Yes I did. It's not as harsh as an orange leaf, much more mild. It strongly reminds me of the leaves of citron, kind of a clear clean very light lemony aroma.
It does have just a little bit of bitterness, but is mostly lacking in flavor.
It's not as good as Kaffir lime leaves.

Both the leaves of regular lemon and Yuzu have sort of a bit of harsh petitgrain smell/flavor like regular citrus. Citron, Kaffir lime, and Ichang papeda leaves do not have this petitgrain-like harshness.


According to your experience on ichang papeda, it must be a useless variety then.
I don't think "useless" would an appropriate description, but definitely inferior to other available varieties.

I don't think a citrus variety that offers insipid leaves will produce fragrant fruits.
The leaves are not entirely insipid, but mostly that way. As I stated, there's a very faint light lemony citron aroma.

There is also a "deepness" to the smell of Ichang papeda leaves that it shares in common with Yuzu, but it lacks the "spiciness" of Yuzu.

  I just wonder if there existed a lost variety of ichangensis (believed to be yuzu ancestor) then why people got rid of such an excellent variety. I assumed that variety of ichangensis must offer very strong fragrant fruits, even more fragrant than nowaday yuzu.
You are going way off-topic.
Most likely people grew it in that part of ancient China because that was the only "lemon" they were able to grow.
In those times people had to grow most of what they used locally. Trade with distant regions was more difficult and expensive, impractical to transport fresh fruits over long distances.
They apparently did have some cultivars of Ichang papeda with slightly better fruit quality, but I don't think they were that much better than the wild type.

23
  I still believe that all of the hybrid of either pepada or trifoliate would lose its leaf symmetrical shape.
I have 3 different hybrids of ichangensis, and they do not display symmetric shaped leaves like ichangensis.
ichangensis x pomelo (Ichang lemon, originated from Chinese cultivar)
ichangensis x kumquat (Ichangquat)
ichangensis x trifoliata (N1tri)
I have seen pictures of ichangensis x sweet orange, and its leaves look like orange.

It's possible a backcross of one of these hybrids with ichangensis might display ichangensis-like leaves.

I grew numerous seedlings from ichangquat, and none of them showed the distinct ichangensis leaves, which makes me inclined to think this trait may not show up in the F2 generation either. Although of course it could just be the particular ichangquat hybrid to begin with which by chance did not inherit the right set of genes.

So I really can't say with completely certainty whether any hybrid with ichangensis might display ichangensis-type leaves.


24
as Ilya has made clear Yuzu -referring to DNA analysis- is no hybrid of ichang papeda. It seems to be a cross of some (probably lost) ichangensis-relative and sour mandarin.
I don't think that's been determined with any certainty, although it could well be true.

(It might, for example, have descended from a different lineage of ichangensis, now extinct, which is not exactly the same as the ichangensis people have in collections now)

The only thing that can be said with certainty is Yuzu is not a direct (first generation) hybrid of ichangensis.

However, Yuzu does show a strong genetic similarity to ichangensis in DNA marker studies. It's just not such a direct correlation that we can easily figure out the exact relationship connection.

25
Have you tried ichang papeda seedlings? I wonder whether or not the same situation would occur to ichang papeda when it was young.
No, I have not grown ichang papeda seedlings, but do have several very small rooted cuttings. They all show the normal symmetrical petiole-leaf shape seen in mature ichang papeda. I doubt seedlings would be any different.

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