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Messages - usirius

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Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Peach leaf curl
« on: December 17, 2019, 03:14:03 PM »
@Spaugh - Yes vinegar contains the acid I mentioned. The method you mentioned is somewhat different as I have mentioned and have been practicing for many years. In the method you found, they take besides (only!) 5% wine vinegar other substances that are also organic. In the method I mentioned, which I have been practicing for many years, acetic acid is used exclusively, but it is twice as concentrated as in commercial vinegar, namely 10%. In Europe one can buy acetic acid in 20% to 60% concentration quite inexpensively canister-wise.  Look, concentrated acetic acid is so easily available in your country. If yes, I would recommend my method to you. It has only one disadvantage: Anything that gets overspray other than the peach tree can be damaged, this can be weeds, lawns, evergreen plants of any kind. Deciduous woody shrubs usually have no problem with acetic acid. If you like, I can refer you in the next few weeks to a publication in German by the University of Hohenheim (Germany) on the treatment of peach ripple disease with acetic acid.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Peach leaf curl
« on: December 15, 2019, 02:53:22 PM »
qspaugh: There is also a biological control method: Spraying the trunk, all branches and all twigs and buds from all sides with 10% acetic acid. This should happen during the rest period, i.e. from now until mid-January at the latest on a day when it is between 5°C and 10°C and does not rain. The background is that the fungus lives on the bark and infects the buds and the young shoots when the buds swell. Once the fungus is in the green parts of the plant, it is difficult to control it. The best time for very successful control is, as I said, the resting period, which also applies when chemical pesticides are used. For the use of acetic acid as a pesticide, the pump syringe must be suitable (the sealing rings must be made of silicone or EPDM).

« on: December 07, 2019, 01:27:59 PM »
The Chironja Grapefuit is as far I know not a real Grepfruit. It is presumably < hybrid between Grapefruit and Orange, therefore also called Orangelo

It is said that in the year 1956 Carlos G. Moscoso of the Department of Horticulture of the University of Puerto Rico found a wild seedling tree in the rural mountainous Angeles and Caguanas areas of Utuado municipality, which produced large, bright yellow fruit, and other seedling trees were found in isolated areas among the coffee plantations.  The name Chironja is a combination of Chi(na), the local term used for the sweet orange, and (to)ronja, the Spanish word for grapefruit.

In it is also listed as a Grapefruit hybrid - with the marking CRC 3909.

According to knowledge that it is presumably a hybrif Grapefruit whicht is not hardy and also sweet orange which is also not hardy I agree with you to put it during the winter into inside or into a greenhouse in any case is the safe method - if you can get this citrus variety in your country

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: WTB: Sweetie
« on: December 02, 2019, 03:48:38 PM »
I have one grafted Sweety plant since many years - bearing fruits every year. Fruits aregetting yellow inmy climate, taste is exactly like Sweety which are sold in supermarkets.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Hiryu Flying Dragon
« on: December 02, 2019, 03:45:29 PM »
Also my Poncirus FD contains more than 30 seeds per fruit - by the way, th size of the fruits is smaller than those of a standard PT

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Blackberry (Rubus sp)
« on: November 30, 2019, 01:57:59 PM »
I am cultivating many types of rubus, raspberries, blackberries, dewberries, vine berries and much more  since many years in my garden. The frost hardy ones planted out, the less frost hardy ones are in the pots.
Of the blackberries you mentioned, I have cultivated the variety Navaho for about 8 years. It grows in soil of my garden with ph more than 7. It is extremely vigorous, especially in summers with a lot of rain, otherwise the shoots do not grow so strongly. This year the fruits have dried for the first time mostly before ripening, because we had a very long and very hot summer.  Rubus from temperate zones generally does not tolerate heat and drought so well.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Seedless citrange
« on: November 27, 2019, 03:17:38 AM »
My Citrandarin Poncirus x Changsha Mandarin HRS899 Seeedling (means F1-Generation of HRS 899) do not create seeds on unpollinated fruits. Those fruits ware growing smaller than fruits of pollinated flowers which contains seeds.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Frost Protection
« on: November 27, 2019, 03:15:30 AM »
According to my knowledge and experiences with infrared light bulbs I think they are warming the surfaces (leafes, stems, twigs) too hot. I would prefere normal light bulbs which I am doing for some plants I have in plein air with a simple frost protection, I do not use an thermo cube ecause I am using low wattages (between 3W and 20 W) I can let run them during frost periodes permanently - minimum for night - than switched by a timer - without any danger of damaging. From time to time I am looking at weather news for deciding to swithch bulb of,  or on or to change the bulb, use one  with more or less power.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« on: November 26, 2019, 12:02:00 PM »
Interesting thought....I myself have not yet started refining experiments with specifically selected different rootstocks, for example root suckers from different clones. Of course there are weaker or stronger varieties, flowering sooner or later or bearing sooner or later, but to what extent the rootstock communicates this to the grafting is the question. I am already glad, if at all a refinement succeeds to me, is not completely so simple. Maybe KSU has already done research on this, so if someone has a good contact there, he is welcome to ask, I would be interested!

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Frost Protection
« on: November 26, 2019, 11:26:42 AM »
Yes Kumin you are right, in a small enclosure of course such an heater would overheat and make no sense. Of course the power should be adapted according to enclosure which should be heated. Thanks for the hint.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Frost Protection
« on: November 26, 2019, 03:11:13 AM »
Hi, as I have said the 1500 Watts in my case are controlled by a thermostat - therefore 1500 Watt are not overdimensioned. In case of strong freezes the 1500 Watt are not enough for heating up such a large greenhouse frost  make sure, I have pottet plants in this green huse, which are not able to withstand freezing temperatures below 32°F (0°C) ....

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Frost Protection
« on: November 25, 2019, 04:30:07 PM »
For 20 years I have been heating my approx. 15 m2 cold greenhouse frost-free with two small standard heating fans - two of them because experience has shown that one can fail at a the greenhouse doesn't completely freeze in severe frosts.....the heating fans can be set to 1500 or 2000 watts. They have included also a thermostat, but it is too imprecise for me. Therefore I set it to full heat and control the fan heaters again separately with two room thermostats / socket thermostats with wired sensors, which I can position away from the fan heaters. So both fan heaters heat independently of each other in the greenhouse, and if one (or a thermostat) fails the other can still heat....that was already the case three times in the time and has ensured the plants in the meantime as long as the survival, until I could determine the Pro and solve. blem have determined... The thermostat setting is 2°C (35.6°F) as the lower limit and 4°C (39.2°F) as the upper limit to minimize heating costs and still ensure survival, so I winter not only more robust citrus but also more sensitive ones like the Australian citrus or warmth-loving potted plants like Natal plum (Carissa macrocarpa) or Surinam cherry / Pitanga / Kirschmyrte (Eugenia uniflora) or the Kingprotea (Protea cynaroides)too, survive this very well! Thermocontrolled heating also avoids overheating when for example sun is shining in a clear winter day into the green house. Of course when there are no freezing temperatures outside I am opening  the windows as long the sun is shining to avoid overheating by sun shine also.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 25, 2019, 01:13:22 PM »
Yesterday I had the time and leisure to make a small amount of jam from my first harvest with several fruits of HRS899 Poncirus x Changsha - F1 - seedling. I had already reported about the fruit quality under another category here, after I ate a fruit for the first time - the years before I didn't even dare because of the big similarity to Poncirus....

All the bigger was the surprise - the fruit has practically no bitterness of poncirus in the flesh and in the flesh very much reduced, I would say not even 1/3 compared to the real Poncirus. And as reported in the other column - it represents for me in the habitus regarding growth, Bedornung, leaves, blooms, fruits and in the winter hardness a full substitute for Poincirus trifoliata, thus a quite frost hardy citrus.

(if you like to know more about please see my former postings:  )

So I decided to cook a marmalade of the remaining five fruits. Not much, but groundbreaking for the possible use of such a "poncirus" with relatively pleasant tasting early morning fruits.

It was interesting after cutting the fruits that exactly those I had actively pollinated, two of them with Citrus lemonade (from New Zealand) and one with Flying Dragon, grew smaller, did not form any seeds, and instead had growth disturbances (adhesions).

After removing the seeds, I chopped them up, weighed them (75 grams) and added the same amount of sugar. I added some water because it seemed too dry to me.

After boiling and cooling down a wonderful yellow looking marmalade has developed, whose taste is only slightly poncirus-like, otherwise a bit like British orange marmalade. However, it has not gelled so well and may be due to too small a quantity, too short a boil or too much water.

Of course, you could minimize the pncirus taste even more by reducing the amount of peel or omitting it, but I think that's a bit harsh and by the way, my wife is just that, which makes the jam something special.

By the way, some resin remained on the knife after cutting, not as much as it is with Poncirus fruits, but still something.

Conclusion: This variety is worth cultivating in regions where only Poncirus can usually be planted. So zone 7, maybe zone 6, I haven't been able to test it yet because I am living in zone 7b. But so far there was also frost damage, not the slightest one. Enough words, enjoy the pictures!

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Lobed citranges
« on: November 24, 2019, 03:14:53 PM »
The citrus bud mite (Aceria sheldoni) is present everywhere where citrus is grown on a grand scale.  It affects all citrus, including Fortunella and Poncirus. Where citrus is cultivated outside the cultivation areas in the hobby area, it occurs only rarely. But it can also occur there, depending on where you got your citrus material from. For the occurrence of the mite on all citrus and citrus relatives and thus also on hybrids see the following dissertation:

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Persimmon (Diospyros kaki) in Poland?
« on: November 23, 2019, 02:42:24 PM »
Astringent means that the Kakis when they are still hard taste like sloes, which have not got a frost, the mouth we quite unpleasantly dry. When the kakis then ripen (mostly after harvesting), they are soft and no longer astringent from the end of November / beginning of December. They are then also no longer long-lasting if they are soft.

On the other hand, there are also no Kaki varieties with astringent fruits, which means that you can eat them with pleasure when they are still hard. Of course, they can also be softened, but it is not naggy.

After my long year experiences, kakis with a somewhat square and slightly flat fruit shape are not particularly astringent, and kakis with a more rounded geometry are mostly astringent, i.e. only edible after softening!

Concerning growth I am only able to speak accoridng to my Long time experiences in Zone 7b - here both kinds of Kakis are growing similar and hardiness is simlar here also.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: 1st year attempt at annona breeding.
« on: November 18, 2019, 05:14:55 PM »
Congratulations on the successful crossing! I've been trying to cross Annona with Asimina for about two years now, which I don't think has been done yet. Of more than 40 flowers of a cherimoya pollinated with Asimina pollen, only two were able to develop permanently. In many cases the young ovary remained for several weeks, in one case even several months before it died. Now I have two young fruits that are developing and will not fall off. One of them has deformations, which indicates difficulties in pollination and yet some successful seed closure. At time of flowering of this flower there has been no other open cherimoya flower in the surrounding. Have a look at these two pictures of this impressive deformed fruit...

I estimate that the fruit will be ripe in March 2020.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Helping friend find good green eating mango
« on: November 18, 2019, 05:10:50 PM »
Sorry - wrong thread for my posting ;-)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 14, 2019, 05:52:14 AM »
Concerning my Poncirus x Changsa mandarin HRS899 seedling (F1 Generation)  see also my former postings: 

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 14, 2019, 05:49:07 AM »
Thank you for your feedback and further inspiration. I will also take a closer look at the topic of oil, I still have a handful of fences.

Before that I will cook a handful of fruits from my HRS899 seedling (=HRS899 F1 generation) jam. It is without any damage regarding incredible frost hardness (-17°C = 1,4 °F), and it doesn't get colder with me - she probably can stand even more cold) and in her habit it shows a lot of similarity to Poncirus trifoliata, only the fruits are much more pleasant in taste, hardly any poncirin in the skin and in the juice and flesh not at all.
For me it is simply the only really edible citrus fruit for USFA Zone 7 and maybe also Zone 6.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 13, 2019, 03:18:27 AM »
Hello Citradia, thank you for your compliment. But you gave the impulse, so thank you again!

It is astonishing that people have been working intensively on this topic "before our time" as well as on many other topics, which are lying dormant somewhere in archives. That is a pity. Such old works are often not to be found on the Internet.

I think it is also in the sense of such a scientist and author as A. Mehltz, when his work does not get further into oblivion, but finds again interest and attention, and thus once again comes to honour.

Perhaps our scientists, and perhaps also those who read along with us, will be able, with the support of this work, to find further astonishing research on the usability of citrus fruits and make it accessible to those with an interest in it.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 12, 2019, 04:54:53 PM »

Translated into the Emglish language:

About the usability of the fruits of Citrus trifoliata.                                                      573

reason for the individual results with an average tractive force value
of about 430 g, we can see that this is present in relatively large quantities in the
fruits of Citrus trifoliata, the pectin has a high gelling
worth possesses. Which, in spite of multiple exploitation of the initial
material is higher than that of apple pectin. This results in the
possibility and suggestion to increase the pectin content of Citrus trifoliata fruits.
to use it in a variety of ways for gelling purposes.
value. The technology of today's pectin production offers a whole range of
a series of methods which make pectins in a more or less pure state
to win.


The result of the above investigations is as follows:

1. Shells. Flesh, Housimg of the Seeds and Albedo of the fruit
of Citrus trifoliata can be used.

2. From the peel a very aromatic, bitter bitter orange can be obtained.
Reminiscent, durable cake spice in the style of the well-known "Citro-
nats" or "Orangeats". A cake spice of a similar kind,
in particular aromatic properties can be achieved by rubbing off the
peels can be obtained on the finest granulated sugar ("lemon-

3. Albedo. Fruit flesh and Housing of the Seeds contain
a lot of highly gelling pectin, which is easy to extract and can be added to the
can be used for a wide range of gelling applications.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 12, 2019, 04:52:45 PM »

Translated into the English language:

572    A. Mehlitz

the pointer of the apparatus which indicates the beginning of the rupture, see
slowly, but evenly. As soon as the tearing occurs
the load on the weight cup has stopped and the cup is filled with the
Contents weighed. The determined weight is an approximate yardstick.
For the tensile strength of the jelly and thus also for the gelling power.
of the pectin individuals in the extracts.
Concerning the jelly cooking I refer to my earlier
Work on the determination methodology of gelling powerful pectic substances 1.
The cooking process was now carried out in such a way that in the finished jellies
always 0.5 % Ca pectate and 60 % sugar at a pH of about 3.00
were included. The following results were achieved:
Table 3.

In terms of taste, all 3 jellies have the character of the
English "jam", that is those characteristically bitter
tasting orange jam, which is available in England in very large quantities,
but also in Germany in ever-increasing dimensions as a spread on bread
is enjoyed.
Very interesting are the gelling results, which give us a glimpse into the
the gelling value of the individual pectin pectins of the individual extraction
juices are graded. The tensile force values first teach us that the
The pectin substances are already isolated during the first extraction.
are isolated. The pectins of the 2nd extraction gelify much worse and the
of the 3rd Extaktion still somewhat less than those of the 2nd. By these results
the fruit already made with other fruits containing pectin
the new test drives.
Pure lemon pectin from the trade in powder form is supplied by the
Jelly cooking according to the above recipe and the described
cooking method has a tensile force value of about 500 g, apple pectin has a
those of about 300 g. Let us calculate the 3 extract fractions as follows

1 Mehlitz, A, The canning industry 17, 624-626, 640-645, 654-657, 671-673 (1930).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 12, 2019, 04:50:37 PM »

Translated into the English language:

About the usability of the fruits of Citrus trifoliata.                          571

A 4. qualitative extraction experiment with the same initial
material still resulted in a pectin-containing extraction juice. It
but was to assume that the pectin individuals of this extract were very?
was far behind the quality of those of the first 3 fractions.
so that I decided only to look at the exploitative relationships
of the first 3 extractions. The total pectin-
yield in the first 3 extracts was as follows:
The 1st fraction contained a total of 14.76 g pectin calculated as Ca pectate,
the 2nd fraction contained a total of 8,00 g pectin calculated as Ca pectate,
the 3rd fraction contained a total of 3,10 g pectin calculated as Ca pectate.

All 3 extraction juices contained a total of 25.86 g pectin, which was
have been removed from 450 g of extraction material, i.e. the
Fruit residue supplied 5.75 % whole pectin substances as calcium pectate.
and the calculations.
Very important was the analysis of the individual extracts for the
the gelling value of their pectin individuals, which, according to our present knowledge
depends on their methoxyl content. For this purpose a
series of gelling trials, in which the individual, under certain conditions
jellies produced under certain conditions in accordance with uniform facial
in terms of appearance, odour, taste and firmness.
have been characterized. In the 3 extracts, the substances required for the
pH conditions1 through the addition of tartaric acid
so arranged that the jellies produced therefrom always have a pH of
about 3.00 was present. Then, under consideration of the
Pectin content in the 3 extracts jellies according to the method of Lüers
and Lochmüller (2), in which the strength is determined by the measurement of their
tensile strength (tensile force) was determined.
A jelly is cooked under precisely defined conditions,
whose strength is measured by means of a tearing device. After
the cooking is finished, the hot gelatinized material is immediately put into a
filled into a ribbed cup, in which a so-called tearing figure is placed.
and then cooled in a cooling bath for 1 hour. The
Jelly solid and the tearing figure "gelled" in. After 1 hour the
cup is clamped in a so-called pectinometer3 and attached to the tearing figure.
a chain suspended, which runs over 22 rollers and at the other end a
a weight cup. The weight cup is included: shot or better
still loaded with mercury (4) which can be removed from a burette with narrow
let the tap opening run evenly in small droplets until

1 Mehlitz, A., The canning industry l2, 467-470 (1925).
2 Lüers, H. and Lochmüller. Colloid-Z. 42. 154ff. (1927).
3 To be obtained from the company F. & M. Lautenschläger. Munich.
4 Mehlitz, A., The canning industry l7, 624-626, (340-645, 654-657, 671—673 (1930).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 12, 2019, 04:48:54 PM »

Translated into the English language:

570     A. Mehlitz

delivered -- to small dice chopped up -- an exquisite cake spice,
Another, very appealing cake spice of strong aroma of sour orange could also be further developed according to the type of the well-known "lemon-shell-grated” to produce. The whole fruit was rubbed with a cloth.
carefully wiped off and rubbed on an ordinary kitchen grater.
abundant amounts of the finest crystallised sugar have been rubbed off.
With respect to the well-known, excellent gelling properties
of common citrus fruits, one could assume that also in the
fruits of Citrus trifoliata is present.
In order to clarify this, the following experiments were carried out:
From 3 kg of whole fruits, after pressing and de-pressing, the
1300 g, which is obtained from the kernel of the fruit.
the housing, the flesh and the albedo, which was used for the thorough
The shells were gutted. According to this, about 40,96 of the
are examined for their gelling value.
450 g fruit residue was first sharply squeezed out and then mixed with 4,51
of an n/50 tartaric acid solution. The extraction mixture has been
cooked in a covered pot for 1 hour. They were
2380 ccm extract, which was very viscous and turbid. To
the extracted extraction juice was used for a better further processing.
separated on a centrifuge. The juice from the first extraction had a
a specific gravity of 1,012, a pH of 4,30 and a pectin content of
of 0,62 g in 100 ccm. The pectin content was calculated according to
Ca-pectate determination method (1) according to Carre' and Haynes, which has been modified by me.
It turned out that it was not possible to convert the starting material into
of one or two extractions. From this the reason was the fruit residue of a three-fold fractionated hot
extraction. The examination results are showed in Table 23.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: My first poncirus marmalade tastes good.
« on: November 12, 2019, 04:47:07 PM »

Translated into the English language:

A. Mehlitz: About the usability of the fruits of Citrus trifoliata.    569

From the above comparison, we can see that the juice of the
fruits to the Citrus trifoliata is not as sour as that of the usual

Lemons. On the other hand, the total extract, the minerals and that the
Pectin content higher than in lemon juice. A very essential under-
However, the difference lies in the smell and taste of the two types of juice.

The juice of Citrus trifoliata fruits is very bitter and exceeds
In of this property even the bitter orange (Citrus [Aurantium] vulgaris).

The juice of the Citrus trifoliata fruits was used for several applications in the
I've been hired to do this. It was established that this would result in a
suitable for a wide variety of food preparations, according to bitter taste
with 65 % sugar.

The skins of the fruits can be used much better.
1 kg = 33 1/3 % shells were obtained from 3 kg of fruit, which were then

and then carefully squeezed out from the inside of the product.
Fruit pulpe, housing of the seeds and the largest part of the albedo
have been liberated. The shells prepared in this way, which had become considerably thinner

were thoroughly washed in cold water and finally washed into a

3 percent saline solution. In this condition, the shell stayed long. After a short time they took --- since they were gradually losing saline solution-- have been 'permeated' with 'light' -' and got a transparent appearance.
At the same time, they are used to absorb the sugar during the later
further treatment made particularly suitable -. Now, the processing of the
the pre-treated shells into a cake spice, which is then
of the type of the famous "citronate", "orangeate" or the one from cedar citrons
prepared to steal "Sukkade". For this purpose the shells has been watered so long under repeated changing of the water, until in the waste water there is no more cooking salt in the taste was perceived.

Then the shells were blanched. They were in a kettle completely covered with water and boiled. After a short time
the water that contained the last traces of the cooking salt,
the kettle again filled with water, and the shells were
again cooked bubbly for about half an hour to 1 hour. As soon as they are

the cooking was interrupted. Meanwhile, an approximately
30proz sugar solution prepared, with which the blanched shells in
were watered with earthen pots. Since the next day the sugar solution
had become weaker in concentration, she was pulled off,
boiling up to 33% sugar content and put back to the shells.
The sugar content was adjusted to the same way each
day by about 6%, until it finally reaches about
was 70 %. In this solution, the shells are probably endless storable.
The shells of citrus trifoliata fruits which have been stored in Sugar.
could be candied in the same way as citronate or candied orange peel
or glaze. The finished products were very aromatic, and had

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