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Messages - shah8

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Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: July 20, 2015, 03:19:18 PM »
Still kinda going mad trying to pin this down.

Established that the raceme flowering pattern is pretty much the same as candolleana.  The leaves don't have any real aroma when crushed, especially compared to the grimal leaf crushed as control.

Thing is, I got this plant, at the very latest, in 1997.  Throughout the time I've had it, it has never had a growth pattern similar to my Suriname cherry, and roughly grows slightly slower than the grimal.  My thumb ain't that green, and I haven't really been able to care for any of my plants, like repots or root-pruning, and this one has almost died a couple of times--but it has *never* shown the vigor that has been talked about in the candolleana thread, and my Suriname Cherry is a very compliant, robust, have to really try to kill it sort of plant.  It hates, very much, changes in light patterns, and as a small plant, very intolerant of anything like full sun.  Really needs its micronutrients, too.

The other major issue is that at the time I got it, there was really rather little interest in Eugenias, and Jim West was still pretty much at the forefront with E. stipitata and victoriana.  Pitomba was the most exotic Eugenia plants offered in the states.  If I were to have been cheated state-side, this could, practically speaking, only be E. floribunda.  For several reasons, I've had to judge that unlikely.  So that mostly has meant some sort of issue with collection in Brazil.  Who down there would know about candolleana in the mid-90's?  I suppose they would know E. florida, but doesn't sounds like the right sort of flowers or the right color trunk.  Also, there are a number of Plinia, like rivularis and renatiana, that also has racemes instead of cauliflorus blossoms.  I've also have noticed that E. pyriformis has very diverse characteristics, with fruit that might pass for a cambuca.  Just mindboggling.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: July 19, 2015, 06:46:43 PM »
An aside, can you tell me what makes E. candolleana E?  It's just not like most of the other common groupings of Eugenias, and really just looks more like it belongs to Plinia to my *extremely* unexpert eye.  I mean, I've seen cambucas in person at Frankie Sekiya's nursery, and checked against the memory of the plant at home.  At least at the time, the cambucas at Frankies didn't have the dark green coloration that I see in pictures today.  I'd be motivated to, since I've have had the experience of buying something and getting something else (cedar bay cherry instead of yellow jaboticaba) before having gone to Hawai'i.

All this stuff is really confusing, especially since I've essentially by now think it's unlikely to be an actual cheating, with something that was common in the nursery trade in the '90s.  There are so many types and so many variations, and if it's some sort of Plinia, god help me, because there are just no good pictures of any aside from cambuca.  Even with P. rivularis, there are only a few pictures of blossoms, with at least one of them more like a truncifolia version of cambuca, with the others look like candolleana.  The drawings of P. renatiana clearly shows an inflorescence that's similar to what I've got now, instead of  big jaboticaba-like blossoms on the branches like P. edulis.

edit:  Eugenia florida can also be added to suspect list.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: July 19, 2015, 05:40:02 PM »
Yeah, I am going to have to get a picture of this thing uploaded.  Definitely could be Plinia rivularis, as that the blooms have the same bunch character as E. candolleana or S. cumini.  Got just no head for taxonomy.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: July 19, 2015, 02:51:02 PM »
Yeah, I'm getting that you can also tell by the trunk, jambolans will not really have peeling trunk at all, and be similar to cattelei guavas, right?

It is really closest to candolleana.  At this point, I'm pretty convinced it's a Eugenia, at least.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: July 19, 2015, 01:44:39 PM »
It has flowered with a couple of blossoms at a very young age, but this is the first time there has been any substantial blossoms.  Have now added Syzigium cumini as a possible suspect.  As an aside, it really does seem like eugenia candolleana and sygygium cumini have very similar behavior, and looking at various jambolan pics, S. cumini has lots of types, so I wonder how closely related these two guys are.

Bark was grey some time ago, has peeled to a relatively red bark, and isn't peeling now.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: July 18, 2015, 08:27:09 PM »
I don't have a digital camera.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: July 18, 2015, 07:07:42 PM »
I'm somewhat annoyed in the sense that I got this plant in the '90s from Ed Krajaulis.  It sounds like it's before Rainforest plums ever got to the US, but it also could be that the late Krajaulis was confused by similar common names in ordering direct from Brasil, so something.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: July 18, 2015, 06:46:53 PM »
Looks like my cambuca is flowering...

bad news is that it's flowering like a eugenia.  Candolleana or something like it.

Man, after the wood frame is done, you'll probably have an easy time expanding the orchard to include items like luc's garcinia or garcinia prainea, and other slightly ultratropical short stuff.

Since I'd like to regularly eat muscadines...

Grimals only sort of taste like muscadines--the taste is lighter and more delicate.  Not as sweet as a muscadine can be.

While muscadines have only a tough skin, Grimals have a resinous skin, with some sandpapery quality to it.  Grimals mostly have some juicy pulp with clumps of fiberous pulp, and a mildly cling seed that can be sucked for flavor awhile.  Muscadines, however, have a juicy outer pulp and a rubbery inner pulp with seeds.

I suspect that most people will prefer Grimals to muscadines because it's a bit easier to eat, and the flavor isn't strong to the point of funk.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: May 01, 2015, 03:51:55 PM »
fascinating...looks like I don't have any grasp of knowing how to grasp the differences between species.

When I look up Eugenia candolleana online, the leaves look a lot more like psidium cattleiianum combined with suriname cherry.

How did you guys identify it so readily as Eugenia?  When I looked again, now, I went with, older leaves at bottom are more ovate rather than linear; trunk too green.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: April 30, 2015, 11:31:24 PM »
That's the way mine looks (when it was smaller), and the way I remember Frankie's cambucas back in '01.

Honestly, I think aside from vexator, cambuca is relatively easy to tell.  Vexator leaves droop a lot more.  P. rivalris has a different leaf shape.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Jaboticabaholics Anonymous
« on: April 30, 2015, 03:01:44 PM »
You know...if the skin wasn't so resinous and sandpapery, grimals would be a clearly better eating experience than muscadines.  I can eat my way through a pound of muscadines in a sitting.  There's just no way I'll ever get enough fruit from my potted specimen to ever get sick of jaboticaba.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Pawpaws in SoCal.
« on: April 29, 2015, 04:03:52 PM »
Pawpaws do not genuinely taste like bananas.

They generally taste like a no-acid, higher fat cherimoya with more flavor emphasis on orange--sweet potatoes, pumpkin, muskmelon, mango, heavier tropically taste elements like that.  I've heard Cornus kousa fruit is also similar in taste.

While I have not tried the fruit myself, my working assumption is that for practical purposes, the higher quality fruits are basically a very poor man's durian.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: April 29, 2015, 12:44:38 AM »
My tree has never had that deep green leathery look to it.

while looking at pictures on the internet, it's pretty amazing to me just how much M. vexator looks like cambuca, more so than something like glomerata...

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cambucá and other trees
« on: April 27, 2015, 07:35:25 PM »
Mine is at least 15yo, red bark, has flowered at ~4 years without result as a small, stressed plant.  Never since, so far.

What, precisely, is the virtue of coronata, other than size?

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« on: April 26, 2015, 02:55:03 AM »
Long way from any joy, but I have a Maria's Joy and a Susquehanna planted earlier this spring...

Ed, what would you say the difference was between Susquehanna and Wabash in terms of flavor?

One correction on kava.  The issue was that the sample in the study included kava stems, which are definitely toxic, when the product should be made from lateral roots.  At least that is my memory of it.

Oscar, my bet is on malnutrition plus agricultural spraying--specifically paraquat (probably in combination with whatever toxic experience with annona).  One of the things that really makes me think something is off, is the focus on what are really small islands.  Guadalupe, but not Dominican Republic, or Costa Rica, or Columbia?  Kii peninsula?  Why New Caledonia instead of Australia?  That makes for a thought that the common factor has to do with small amounts of arable and livable land, and so people are living next to highly intensive agriculture.

* shah8 grabs hair

starling1, you're being an obnoxious git.

I cited my background so as to suggest that I am not completely unfamiliar with the literature.  I am not saying that I am an expert.

Part of what gets mine, and plenty of other people's goat, is the consistent appeal to authority, when there are not authoritative studies to appeal to, not truly so.  And then act as if we're in denial.  Dud(ettes), everyone here knows!  This site is mainly full of people who know A LOT about this sort of thing!  You can't simply state something about how we have to accept that soursops are dangerous.  Because we know.  Plenty of people have been talking about it for a decade plus years now.  The issue isn't that we don't appreciate the dangers, or what the studies say.  The issue is the number of tropical fruits that do NOT have toxin issues are a pretty strong minority!  I mean, for example, you shouldn't drink scotch while eating durians.  Unless we're talking about highly domesticated fruits like figs, or fruits with really simple appeal, like pitaya, most everything else tropical will build up, or have toxin issues if you eat a lot of them.  There is a pretty dang good chance that something more complicated than simply eating lots of soursop (or drinking tisane) is causing said atypical Parkinson's, and the rather dramatic toxic nature of acetogenins overstates the actual risk profile.  We haven't even considered whether the benefits outweigh the risks--soursop tisane is perhaps cheap and dangerous, but it may well work for poor people, and Parkinsons is just the long term cost, generally of being poor.

Nobody said eating or making tisane of the leaves was safe.  The argument was about the fruit.  Take a look at the OP.  Five soursop fruits a year is marginally safe!

Put bluntly, there is not enough of a real world signal such that one should think that is for real.  We should be hip-deep in Parkinsons' disease patients, and there would be no freakin' denying it.  There might be a lot of obfuscatory studies like what was done for tobacco, black lung/asbestos, repeated concussions in football, but the signal was always there.  Worldwide, there is *huge* consumption of annonacae fruit.  We should have at least as signal for atypical Parkinson as we do for tylenol.  Or even just a tenth of it.  If we are as fast to talk about problems consuming Monstera Delicosa, we should have, long ago, a fairly well understood public awareness that such fruits are toxic.  As such, there is a pretty automatic high standard of evidence required for me and many other people.  By the way, I have, albeit minimal, an actual background in neuroscience.  That means I can read these papers to a minimal extent and evaluate what it says.  I don't have to put up with "studies say".  I don't have to put up with correlations, either.  Again, there is a real world, living experiment/experience going on, and the studies have to conform to what we see in the world--we're not talking about fringe stuff or patient studies.  We're talking about, presumably, Goya being history's greatest monster, slowly poisoning the third world with delicious, delicious juice!

Hello again, KarenRei...

First off, I'm not LakeSuperior or any of that sort of obnoxious pseudorationalist git...

That means:

1)  I accept that annonacae fruits have poison in them.

2)  I accept that a high enough consumption means that we are poisoned by them.

My problem is that the concern for anonacae fruits is disproportionate to the actual risks, and that the scientific studies to date are a lot weaker than you seem to understand.  There are routine qualifiers, like in the pawpaw paper, making clear that critical questions like bioavailability from actual pawpaw consumption is not fully answered.  Moreover, *compared to other tropical fruits and less domesticated fruits*, anonacae may well not be an outlier in terms of dangerous consumption, and that we're overseeing the clear analogies to obviously poisonous substances, with easy causation established.

Moreover, all of the studies cited are simply way too small, and with way little discrimination, epidemiological-wise.

The conclusion of the best work, from which you cited that image goes like this:
The clinical, neuropsychological and neuroradiological analysis of Gd-PSP and Gd-PDC patients suggests that these two groups cannot be confounded with Parkinson's disease and, except for the oculomotor signs, cannot be distinguished from each other. This is confirmed by correlation with the consumption of annonaceous products, which is as low in Parkinson's disease patients as in controls, but equally high in the Gd-PSP and Gd-PDC groups, although there was a tendency for Gd-PDC patients to have consumed more than the Gd-PSP patients. It should be noted, however, that about 50% of the atypical patients were not heavy consumers of annonaceaous products, suggesting that other factors, environmental or genetic, might affect the vulnerability of patients to the neurotoxins in Annonaceae. In addition, a certain number of control patients (n = 22) fell into the category of high consumers, and might constitute a group at risk for the development of atypical parkinsonism. This study has reinforced the hypothesis that atypical parkinsonism in Guadeloupe may be related to an alimentary toxin, but prospective longitudinal studies are needed to clarify this point, which is very important not only for scientific reasons, but also for public health. Our detailed clinical, neuropsychological and neuroradiological analysis of this form of parkinsonism provides criteria for the diagnosis of this disease in other populations potentially at risk.

And this was also true of another study I found (but could only read the abstract of) which concluded that anonacae consumption is not necessarily strongly-linked to atypical Parkinson.

Moreover, from the cited image, what high consumption meant was effectively normed at one fruit/cup of fruit juice a day for ten years, and high consumption is like double that.  Step back for a sec.  How many people, given adequate means, will eat that much of a single fruit every day?  That makes for wondering whether selecting for consumption is also selection for other factors.  Also, few people with means and access to a global marketplace, even if they totally LOOOVE soursop, are going to manage to consume that much for that long, in the face of the rest of the delicacies the world offers.

Lastly, again, a tremendous number of tropical products are really rather toxic if you let yourself think that way.  I mean, are you going to be super cautious about white sapote?  How about nutmegs or cashew apples?  Are you going to take the risk of consuming that Mamey?  The game is basically the same as it is with everything else, including beer, etc.  In moderation, prepared properly.

And there's where the cite request comes in.

Seriously, Rei, luv your for the volcano stuff on Dailykos, but I was talking about said rare condition when I said aspartame having a clear link.  I am not aware of any such refined study for consuming the fruit specifically. 

What I will accept is a study that does a reasonably convincing statistical cleaning per those atypical Parkinson having a direct relationship to consuming the *fruit*.  I went and did a quick check online--Just about *everything* is based on Guadelupe, and there are no studies for Cuba (for perhaps, obvious reasons), or Puerto Rico that I could find, and those two places love their soursop at least as much, and leaf consumption is also traditional.  You should see clear clusters there, and elsewheres in the tropic.  Consumption of soursop and soursop juice is pretty considerable.  You should not have problems finding a trail of atypical Parkinson throughout the third world.  The focus of studies on Guadalupe in particular should ring bells.  This is not to be dismissive about the actual risks of consumption, which are very likely to be easily handled or understood in terms of what is too much.  It is also rather important to understand that there are plenty of abusive studies that reflect unlikely circumstances or bad prep circumstances. 

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