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Messages - kumin

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nearly thornless Conestoga segentrange
« on: August 03, 2020, 01:14:34 PM »
Hardyvermont, I agree with you. The long wait affords an opportunity to study all types of characteristics other than flowers and fruit. This particular plant has notches at the "tip" of many of the leaves.
 I have no experience with Glen Citragedin, but there's considerable similarity between some of the leaves. When distant species are hybridized all sorts of interesting recombinations can appear. Some may be reminescent of other related species.

A very few of the initial seedlings favored the appearance of Poncirus polyandra from Fumin, China.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Nearly thornless Conestoga segentrange
« on: July 27, 2020, 08:39:56 PM »
Citradia, #002 is among the hardiest survivors, but needs additional testing to establish it's hardiness in relation to Poncirus. This selection is only 2 1/2 years old from seed, so fruit characteristics are unknown at this point.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Nearly thornless Conestoga segentrange
« on: July 26, 2020, 09:34:32 AM »
Conestoga #002, nearly thornless selection. Nice to see after dealing with Poncirus.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: July 25, 2020, 04:40:39 PM »
 Current photos of recent outdoor high grafts on Poncirus, as well as grafts on 1 year Poncirus.

Photos of the interior of the cold frame housing 1 1/2 year old grafted clones of the original survivors & 2 1/2 year old original surviving seedlings.

Recent outdoor high grafts of TaiTri, 5* citrumelo, and various Conestoga selections.

A few of 440 recent grafts on Poncirus year old seedlings. There are 8 seedlings per pot.

Conestoga #001 high graft on Poncirus needs support due to very rapid slender growth.

More recent outdoor grafts on fruiting age Poncirus.

2nd year graft of Conestoga #011 on fruiting age Poncirus, hopefully it'll flower in 2-3 years.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: July 24, 2020, 05:37:11 PM »
Very interesting post, jibro. Do you do Citrus breeding? If so, have you developed any selections?

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Grafting question:
« on: July 17, 2020, 03:08:06 AM »
I wait 3 weeks, then if the bud hasn't emerged, I will uncover the bud only. The remaining wrap usually doesn't interfere much with growth. It appears that the wrap might be fairly thick, if which case it can indeed restrict normal bud development.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Looking for Poncirus+
« on: July 16, 2020, 08:43:37 PM »
Feel free to send me a PM.

This graft is on an outdoor propagation bed.  The bed was covered when used for Citrus germination. It hasn't been heated, nor covered this season. I have an additional high tunnel, covered, but unheated. My cold hardy Citrus hybrids should need little, if any winter protection in a normal winter. The high tunnel is being used in an attempt to hasten maturity from seedling to mature, fruiting phase.

However, in the event of an extreme Arctic blast, it affords me the option to use emergency heat.

In regards to scion protection, it might be prudent in sunny, hot conditions, but I haven't done any misting, shading, etc. I bud/graft several hundred trees per year and pretty much let them fend for themselves, except for watering, weeding, removing suckers, and fertilizing.

This summer I've started using a variant graft. A problem with the bark flap graft is keeping all 3 layers properly aligned during the parafilm wrapping procedure. There's a tendency for one or two of the layers to shift to the side during wrapping.

The change is cutting the slipping bark on the rootstock in the shape of an inverted "L". That's a vertical incision as in a "T" bud, but the top horizontal cut only goes in one direction, but farther, hence inverted"L". A very flat and slender scion has the epidermis and a sliver of cambium removed from each of the 2 sides (just as previously). The knife used must be very sharp to provide smooth edges.

The prepared scion is inserted and pushed firmly under the bark flap, with the scion bud sticking out of the top of the horizontal cut, if desired. Wrapping should be from the attached side to the open cut to securely hold the scion within the bark.

I find I'm able to complete these grafts faster and have a more stable finished graft.

Within 3 weeks the success rate of this graft should be able to be evaluated.

Prepared scion, cambium exposed on both sides.

Inverted  "L" cut in rootstock bark -don't cut into wood.

Scion tucked securely to the left side - awaiting wrapping.

Graft wrapping - note the rotation - from the attached side toward the cut side on the rootstock.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Paired thorns on F2 citrange
« on: July 14, 2020, 07:52:46 PM »
I found a Poncirus branch with shoots that are transitional between thorns and normal shoots.

I've just completed 440 of these grafts. Percentage of successful takes might be off a bit due to hot weather. Hot, humid weather is preferable to hot dry weather in this instance.

The rootstock is of smaller caliper than ideal, which slowed down the process.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: TaiTri vs 5* deciduousness and hardiness
« on: July 07, 2020, 06:54:29 AM »
This is a recent 5* citrumelo bud and graft on Poncirus rootstock. The upper graft is a bark flap graft, the lower one is an inverted T-Bud. Both are growing well in the present hot weather. Both photos are of the same plant.

Shortly after bud-break.

The most recent photo.

In many bush type plants water sprouts are a natural means of generating new, vigorous replacement growth. Blueberries and roses come to mind.

The vigorous stem on the right is the straightest, most upright of all the growth. Personally, I would allow it to mature another year or so, then remove all growth to the left of it. This should result in a nice straight, upright tree mature enough to begin fruiting. This stem is positioned to improve the tree branch scaffolding.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Dead bearss lime tree
« on: May 31, 2020, 05:55:27 PM »
The scion appears totally dead, while the roots don't. I'm curious what causes this condition. I may not be correct, but would expect a disease attacking the root system first, to kill the root system outright.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 30, 2020, 07:47:28 PM »
Growth habits of several Poncirus/Poncirus hybrid seedlings:

Conestoga 010: deciduous, hardy plant, small  leaves.

Conestoga 011: deciduous, very hardy plant, strong, open branches. Twin thorns frequent, small-medium leaves with wavy edges.

These two looks almost like pure poncirus to me, the leaf in the middle is shorter than usual F1 hybrid with trifoliate, the same cold hardiness as poncirus is another sign, that these are much more close to poncirus than orange...
Conestoga 011 reminds me one of my Tetraploid poncirus, shorter  petiole, wider leaves with wavy edges are one of the sign of tetraploid.

a| Tetraploid poncirus, b| regular diploid poncirus

Jibro, I took a few minutes to examine Conestoga 011 in some detail and must agree that the petiole is shorter than the other plants. It appears to be only +/-  30% of the length of Poncirus petioles. I'm not certain this is a positive for my purposes, although if it's truly a tetraploid, I suppose triploids could be created at will. I will need to research how to get the ploidy tested at some point.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: May 29, 2020, 07:11:22 AM »
Getting fruit to ripen is an additional hurdle to clear toward the goal developing edible cold-hardy Citrus. Developing acid cultivars should be considerably easier than sweet ones. In northern regions Summers are often either too cool, or too short to accumulate adequate sugars.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 26, 2020, 04:34:33 PM »
Yes mikkel, many, but not all of our weeds have European origins. The early settler's plants didn't arrive with phytosanitary certificates.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 26, 2020, 02:17:40 PM »
 Two additional monofoliate plants.

Conestoga 064 rather large leafed, sparsely branched. There's an occasional bifoliate, or trifoliata leaf.

A different plant having slender, dense branches and small leaves. This plant was initially trifoliate.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 19, 2020, 11:53:54 AM »
Yes, I'm semi-retired and this is my only real interest. I've done many grafts and buddings since I was a teenager. So I'm actually looking forward to this. Some people gamble, some travel, some follow sports, I immerse myself in horticulture.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 19, 2020, 05:43:05 AM »
Around 500 seedlings to be grafted?

Actually more than 800 (rootstocks, not scions). There will be multiples of the more promising scions.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 18, 2020, 01:23:35 PM »
Jibro, since the F2 generation is genetically still quite close to the original parents, it stands to reason that the progeny most closely resembling either parent, will likewise have hardiness and fruiting characteristics similar to that particular parent. An honest assessment would likely conclude, that the most likely use and value of these plants is as parents, on the way to further refined and improved selections.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 17, 2020, 03:52:10 PM »
Mikkel, I don't have a count, I will probably wait until all of them leaf out. There may be some that will fail to do so. I think there should be a minimum of 100. In about 2 weeks I should have a better idea of the numbers. It is quite possible that many of them will fail in a severe winter in this area. That's the reason a test in zone 7b is being planned.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 17, 2020, 12:33:13 PM »
There are more than 800 ready this summer and next summer. I will have a bit of a challenge to get them all completed. I hope to do serious outdoor trials of all the clones I presently have. I have a nephew located 320 kilometers (200 miles) south of my location in zone 7b. He's agreed to trial some of my grafted clones at his location.

 In addition, there are several hundred original seedlings that were neglected, but survived in the original field trial beds. These had little to no damage during the past mild winter. I've weeded these beds and will give these plants an additional winter trial to test their hardiness. Some of these are starting growth in the last few days, about 10-14 days later than Poncirus. They are a mixture of evergreen and deciduous plants. Finding these plants, some of which had no dieback was a pleasant surprise. The low temperature during the winter was +10 deg. F (-12.2 C).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Frost Protection
« on: May 17, 2020, 07:17:04 AM »

Of course, if you have some technical skills, you can reproduce this solution in these or other dimensions.

The geometrics of this protective enclosure are well designed. By narrowing the top exposure, wind and night sky radiant cooling are reduced. By maximizing ground exposure, warmth radiating from the soil is captured at an increased rate.

So for me, it appears to be based on sound theory. Actual field conditions may confirm, or refute the concept.

As I look at the photo in greater detail, I see there's a floor on the bottom. This would block the warmth from the soil. I believe this may not be as practical as I originally thought.

The design may be eye catching for marketing purposes. A bit like designing fishing lures to catch the eye of the angling customer more than the actual fish.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 17, 2020, 06:36:09 AM »
400 of 800 Poncirus seedlings to be budded/grafted as soon as the caliper increases a bit. At this stem diameter any budding/grafting would take very steady hands and very good vision! Fortunately I'm near sighted, removing my glasses will put these right in my focal range.

The bark may be a bit too fragile to allow much manipulation, however. The buds/scions would also need to be of a similar tiny diameter.

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