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Messages - tabbydan

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76
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Tarap Fruit
« on: December 04, 2012, 05:42:55 PM »
Hello all tropical fruit lovers,im from Sabah,Malaysia. Im new here and so excited of this forum,so today i would like to introduce one of the native fruit from my place,Tarap. Is anyone here familiar with this fruit?

Funny you mention that fruit... Both times that I've gone to Indonesia I've looked for that fruit and didn't find it (same thing for the one time I was in Malaysia).  Oddly last time I was in Indonesia I was told the white fleshed one didn't taste very good- I don't know if A. odoratissimus has a variety of cultivars with different flesh colors and flavor characteristics... or if some of the ones described were some other species which had white flesh, or it could just be people's personal preference.

Other people have told me it is one of the best Artocarpus out there... I know it grows in spots in Malaysia and Indonesia, but it isn't terribly well commercialized.  A friend who went to the Philippines reported that they were widely commercialized there.

I've heard of A. odoratissimus being called "marang" or "tarap" those are both local "common names" for the fruit.

Sadly when I'm in Asia I don't usually have a lot of time to look for fruits (I usually go on cultural tours which are very nice... but I'd also like to try fruit gems like these).

I would love to find some of the natural treasures of Malaysia or Indonesia... sadly they aren't as easy to find as the cultural attractions.

I'm looking forward to many more posts from you.  Feel free to talk about Durio species or other native fruits.

I'm heading to Burma in the near future... if you know anyone who knows the plants of that region well it would be a big help.

77
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Magnifera Pajang only $45 per seed.
« on: December 03, 2012, 06:04:13 PM »
This is an interesting species.  I could not understand why so many people in Sabah consider it to be their favourite fruit until about a month ago.   When you first eat it, it is just a sour thing with an unrecognizable flavour .  You realize that you can't eat a whole fruit all at once so it seems to have little value.  I ate it on and off and watched the salted bambangan pickle sit in my fridge for months.  It was only after about 14 months of eating it on and off as a sort of duty that I found myself with a plate of rice, some accompanying tempeh and vegetables and a sudden desire for the bambangan pickle.  I thought, "I could just squeeze some lime for freshness and acidity", but my body said, "No, it wanted bambangan."  Now, I find the craving for it comes with cooked food that is a bit dry.  Not a lot, just a spoonful on the plate.  The flavour is stong and wonderful.  It is now an essential fruit for me.

Reminds me of cupuassu (Theobroma grandiflorum) except:
1) it is addictive on the spot
2) it is almost always eaten as a sweet not a savory

"unimproved" cupuassu are TOO SOUR to eat out of hand and people have developed "improved" ones that are sweet enough to eat out of hand.  I consider that a horrible waste though because the cupuassu flavor quickly saturates on your tongue (using a lot doesn't lead to much more flavor than using a relatively small amount).  So the "unimproved" ones seem to give their own built in guide for how to use them.

Hope I get to try this mango relative sometime... but from the description it sounds like an acquired taste (like ginseng).

78
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Monster Fruit Trees: 50m tall and 55m wide
« on: December 03, 2012, 09:22:06 AM »
Ficus has a lot of monsters, horizontal and vertical.

Durio left to do their own thing often get big.

79
I think you'll have trouble sorting out the bad from the good because it seems like most of the problem is genetic.

It seems that people have variable sensitivity to some chemical in the fruit.  Some people are extremely sensitive and can't stand any surinam cherries, some people are moderately sensitive and like some of the fruits with a lower concentration of those chemicals, other people are not terribly sensitive and like most of them, finally some have no sensitivity and can eat all of them.

I'm either in the low sensitivity or no sensitivity group.  Most of them taste just fine to me.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I had one that tasted bad.  My wife (on the other hand) is at the other end of the spectrum.  A local garden has this fruit and they report most people try the fruit and are unable to even eat a whole one... I find that same plant produces fruit I enjoy.

80
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Burma (Meowmar?) redux
« on: November 29, 2012, 07:00:24 AM »

Was it the ivory white wax jambu? Its the sweetest of the regular jambu fairly commonly available here.

It could have very well been wax jambu.  That's what it looked like to me and I paid it no special attention at the time (especially since it was the most expensive fruit at the market).  I only got interested when a coworker pointed out the same thing in photos (from somewhere else) and said it tasted like lytchee.

81
Tropical Fruit Online Library / Re: Congo native fruits by Roy Danforth
« on: November 28, 2012, 05:38:39 PM »
Where did you get this booklet? My husband and I are in the process of adopting from the Democratic Republic of Congo; I'll have to add this to my reading list. Just for knowledge of my daughter's country of origin, of course ;)

A friend mailed me a copy.  I think if you google it you might find it out there.  The Danforth's are missionaries so they put this book out to raise funds.  I'm not big on the missionary aspect but they did have a cool aspect to their mission- they helped people get fruit trees for sustenance and for generating cash... at the same time they tried to grow native fruits and see what it took to grow them.

I believe their original facility they had to abandon some time ago, I've heard they are still in Africa though.

82
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Eugenia neonitida
« on: November 28, 2012, 04:56:39 PM »
Yummy post...  I have a Eugenia fetish so I'm definitely hoping I get to try this fruit someday.  Sounds like a great container plant.  Of course, some of the Eugenia I find are easy to grow (Surinam cherry) and others (like E. victoriana) seem to be VERY unhappy in cool conditions with low humidity.

83
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Burma (Meowmar?) redux
« on: November 28, 2012, 04:53:49 PM »
Would you happen to have anything like this for Vietnam?  ;D

Vietnam has Artocarpus tonkinesis (unlikely to see the fruit in a market however other parts of the plant are used in traditional medicine) and has some other slightly funky items such as Diallium / Floucourtia.  Also wampee is sold there.
 
Ho Chi Minh City / Saigon has this kick ass marketplace where there are a number of fruit vendors.  I saw (aside from the durian, mangosteen, longkong) one slightly odd item a snow white fruit that had the same shape as wax jambu (undoubtedly a Syzygizium).  I did not try that as I figured it was just another wax jambu (I like wax jambu but it has a good amount of fiber in it and I find I can eat only so much fiber, so often I pass it up so I can eat more of other fruits).  However, a coworker showed me pictures of such a thing (I think she encountered something that looked the same in Africa) which she said was sold under the name "Lytchee"!!!!  Apparently it tasted like lytchee too, quite odd.

84
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Burma (Meowmar?) redux
« on: November 28, 2012, 10:28:55 AM »
Just read this garden is at 1000 meters above sea level, so probably will not have much in the way of tropical fruit trees. Still might be a nice place to visit if you are in central Mandalay part of Burma.
http://wikitravel.org/en/Pyin_U_Lwin


Yeah, I figured before you even posted the altitude, that it would plant rich but not necessarily edible fruit rich (and you said that too).  Still, as you also said, people there might be able to direct me to other people who might know Burmese fruits.

I really don't know what is endemic to Burma.  I imagine they have a decent assortment (10-20???) of Garcinia species, maybe some Artocarpus (3-5????), no idea about Durio (1-3, probably just 1), Litsea is probably pretty good, and I used to think it was the home of Baccurea (before finding those were mainly centered about Indonesia)....

As you mentioned in the beginning it is a bad time of year for fruit.

85
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Burma (Meowmar?) redux
« on: November 28, 2012, 08:24:11 AM »
If you contact this botanical garden in advance and ask for an english speaking tour guide that would be your best bet of finding anything rare. I don't think you're going to find rare garcinias or rare artocarpus at fruit vendor stalls in large towns.

I think seasonality will make it a poor harvest trip.  That being said I think places like Burma (which have been cut off from most of the world for a while) are probably slightly easier spots for finding odd stuff (its always an uphill battle though).  I suspect that there is more of a tendency to collect odd fruits from the wild, likewise to grow odd fruits.  Places that are more connected with the world at large tend to fall into growing mainly commodity crops and forget their natural treasures.  When in season they probably do sell odd things like Garcinia cowa, etc. at local markets in Burma.

Thanks for the tips...

86
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Burma (Meowmar?) redux
« on: November 28, 2012, 07:59:58 AM »
There is a large botanical garden at  Pyin-U-Lwin called National Kandawgyi Gardens. Apparently it is a quite large garden modeled after Kew, was built in 1915, and has a good collection. How good the collection of fruits is i don't have any idea. If you are tied into a tour you may not be able to get around to it anyway? (Apparently they sell seeds at their gift shop.)

We have a private tour and we've planned out where we're going to be already.  That being said what we do in those spots is up to us, we can change things as we like.  I'll look to see if this is near where we are going to be staying for some leg of the trip.
My wife isn't into fruits like I am, however, I've found that she is amiable to touring gardens provided they are nice looking.  Both in Singapore (at the two gardens I picked) and in the Bali Botanical Gardens she didn't mind me spending time there (and she actually enjoyed spending time there).  Last time we were at Bogor Botanical Gardens (and the Bali Gardens is typically described as just a small offshoot of that) which was in 2006 she wasn't so wild about it because there was a lot of trash on the ground (mainly newspapers) and it wasn't pretty.  Not sure if Bali Botanical Gardens has always been better maintained or if it is just changes from '06-'12 or what.
She also likes fruit, but unlike me, is not willing to spend a lot of time looking for odd stuff- and she doesn't put any premium on trying odd stuff either (she's happy with durian, mangosteen,... the basics).

Thanks for the tip.  I also need to do some online searching.  Previously someone mentioned that there were some Garcinias that might be ripe in Dec.  Also there could be some odd Artocarpus species (along the lines of A. tonkinesis) that I could look for

87
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Burma (Meowmar?) redux
« on: November 28, 2012, 06:51:00 AM »

Northern Thai border is only for crossing into border town of Burma and return the same day. To access the rest of Burma you need to fly into capital, Rangoon. There are plenty of people there that can be hired and speak English. It's very safe to visit now for tourists. A lot safer than visiting Chicago, Miami, or New York.

We fly into Yangon... (as you suggest).
We booked a private tour which was actually less expensive than the package tours where you're on a bus with a whole bunch of other people.  I was pretty livid after the last package tour because there were two occasions where I'd have wanted to stop the bus to pick up some fruit (would have taken 2 minutes or so) and the leader refused.  The other tourists on the package were nice, I just felt the service of a package tour is pretty poor and it is rather inflexible.

We're doing a cultural tour (yet again) but I'll try to sneak some fruit stuff in.  The problem is that it is pretty easy to find someone who knows something about Bagan.... but a lot more difficult to find someone who knows somethng about native Garcinia / Artocarpus...

Yeah, it's a lousy time of year for fruit.

88
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grapefruit warnings
« on: November 27, 2012, 05:11:34 PM »
This is an article about the photochemistry of some naturally occurring furo coumarins.  At the start of the article they give structures (the furan ring is the five membered ring with oxygen in it) and talk about how some were used in ancient Egypt to treat skin diseases (the treatment would be very painful though).

http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/hindawi-publishing-corporation/photochemical-and-photobiological-properties-of-furocoumarins-and-UULA6o9Z08

Plain coumarins (no extra furan ring fused on) are also interesting and have a lot of history and fokelore.  Coumarins tend to be rather toxic and occur here and there in the plant kingdom.  The most famous example is in Tonka beans where they give a delightful aromatic flavor (unfortunately they are also carcinogenic).  At one point tobacco companies were adding (or investigating adding) coumarins into processed tobacco.  I believe the goal was to make the flavor more appealing.  This caused a chemist working at one of the companies to resign (he felt that was unethical)... and was the basis for the story "The Insider".

89
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grapefruit warnings
« on: November 27, 2012, 01:26:53 PM »
When I asked my pharmacist about drug interactions with grapefruit (which I love) he said that the effect lasts for weeks, not hours and that there was no safe way to eat grapefruit and my daily medications.

I've always heard hours.... I could easily be wrong but that's what I heard.  You can google "grapefruit effect" or "furo coumarins" or various other keywords.  Look for articles written by scientists rather than some random hacks.  Some will talk about the timescale of how long the enzyme is "poisoned".

90
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grapefruit warnings
« on: November 27, 2012, 11:59:31 AM »
Notice i said to give up the drugs IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. Nobody on this planet really needs to be taking 10 or more drugs per day for the rest of their life. Yet due to prevailing pharmaceutical greed so MANY do. Granted many drugs are beneficial, but the ones you mention, like antibiotics and lithium i think don't react negatively with grapefruit. Anyway, even a good thing like antibiotics, can and is overdone in the modern drug manic society we live in. That is why so many people don't react positively any more to so many antibiotics. The evil here is certainly not in the grapefruit, it's in the mass drug consumption.

Ok... if you say overuse I completely agree.  There is a lot of overuse.  It sounded like you were saying drugs were bad grapefruit good, drugs had side effects- grapefruit didn't.

BTW: grapefruit does impact antibiotics.  Antibiotics are largely destroyed by the enzyme I mentioned.  If you have grapefruit and then take antibiotics you effectively multiply the dosage.  Lithium (as it is given in the form of an ionic substance) would not at all be impacted (as you indicate).

Pharamaceutical companies have also drafted the idea of adding synthetic furo comarins to medicines to decrease the dosage needed.  Given that it would also make foods more toxic I'd say that is also abusive (unless you are dealing with an extreme life or death case).

91
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grapefruit warnings
« on: November 27, 2012, 11:09:04 AM »
My recommendation is to give up the medications, if at all possible, and keep the grapefruit. Medications have a lot more side effects than grapefruits, all of which drug side effects are potentially fatal or health damaging. But doctors rather than going into that the poor grapefruit gets the brunt. We are a society addicted to pharmaceutical drugs, so many people popping 10 or more pills per day! If they were eating 10 or more fruits per day then they probably wouldn't need the pharmaceutical drugs.

That seems like pretty dangerous and poor advice.

While I will not argue that pharamaceutical companies are greedy and do lots of unethical things I think it is pretty obvious the best things to come out of 20th century medicine are the drugs.
There are things like penicillin and other antibiotics that have literally save many millions of people.  There are other things like lithium for treating bipolar disorder that have enabled people who would have otherwise had a horrrible life to have a functional and happy one.

Also when it comes down to it all things natural and artificial are chemicals, all things have side effects.  Grapefruit has side effects (that's why there is "the grapefruit effect" which has an impact not just on medicine but also on making otherwise non toxic foodstuffs toxic).

92
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grapefruit warnings
« on: November 27, 2012, 10:39:35 AM »

 I like grapefruit. I like to eat it. I like the juice. It's delicious in its own way!

Like it or not- it is still EVIL!!! Am I the only one who sees the fiendish horns of the grapefruit?!? Lo, I hope that the mandarin will deliver you from your perilous fate Saifu!

----
It's actually pretty easy to lookup stuff about furo coumarins and cytochrome interactions....  There is a lot of research in the area.

Another odd twist about furo comarins is that they often are photochemically active in visible light.  People who pick celery (which has relatively high concs. but lower than grapefruit I think) which is blighted by rot often get burns on their skin.  Likewise people who handle limes and bergamot sometimes also get burns.

I believe in ancient Egypt they used furo coumarins to treat a skin disorder (using the photochemical burning)... a painful treatment.

Furo comarins are also moderately toxic in their own right.  As it is a class of compounds (coumarin with an attached furan ring) they aren't all equally bad.

93
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Grapefruit warnings
« on: November 27, 2012, 09:41:11 AM »
Some may be aware that grapefruit are terrible tasting, but they can also do some pretty nasty things to folks on a certain number of medications. Recently, studies have doubled the amount of prescription medications that are impacted by grapefruit, which can lead to increasing the potency of the medication and inadvertent overdose or rendering the drug ineffective. I guess its another reason to graft over that old grapefruit to a nice flicks yellow pommello or lemonade fruit ;)

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health-fitness/warning-grapefruit-reacts-with-expanding-list-of-drugs/story-fneuzlbd-1226525021022


Pummello over grapefruit wouldn't be a great fix to this problem.
Grapefruit has relatively high concentrations of compounds known as furo-coumarin.  Pumello has concentrations of them at about the same level as Grapefruit.  In other citrus they are typically found in the peel such as lime and bergamot.

Parsips, and carrots also have furo-coumarins but they aren't as much of a concern (lower conc I think and also different ones that might be less "active").  Fig seeds also have these compounds.

Furo-coumarin basically tie up cytochrome P-450 which is an enzyme in your gut that acts to destroy a WIDE variety of naturally occuring plant toxins.  Without that enzyme foods and foodstuffs such as cacao, onions. garlic, brocolli, mushrooms.... become toxic as their "bad chemicals" are no longer broken down in the gut.

At the same time oral medications are effectively multiplied (because typically oral medications are largely destroyed by these same enzymes).  In some rare instances this might be a good thing (such as allowing people to take chemothearapy agents oraly rather than by injection, or for extreme cases like antiviral agents in dire situations).

So if you're afraid of grapefruit (for the furo-comarins, rather than the outright disgusting revolting hideous flavor) avoid pumello and the rind of lime and bergamot too.

Another way to deal with this problem is to eat grapefruit LAST.  The furo-coumarins typically tie up the cytochromes for a few hours.  If you eat grapefruit and have no food or medicine afterwards for many hours (like say at bedtime) there should be no issue.

Or just skip grapefruit since it is an evil and demented citrus.

94
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Burma (Meowmar?) redux
« on: November 26, 2012, 08:43:56 PM »
So I started a thread about this before (sort of, sort of not) but I'm putting it out for some more fresh commentary and also for some other tidbits.

Does anyone have Burma advice (fruits to look for, local names, gardens (public / private), growers...)?

If the last post on this topic got faint interest here's something to add to the pot.... provided I find stuff there (and manage to get it back) I am willing to share my spoils.  Here is the way it works- typically I contact a friend in Florida and ask him if F&S has various things (I only do that if it is something "odd" that I feel they might not have).  If so typically I send him 2/3rds of what I have of that for F&S and himself, the remaining 1/3rd I keep for myself.  Things that aren't rare (rambutan, durian, mangosteen.... I don't even ask him about because I know F&S has it).  The stuff I don't send to him I keep a portion and a portion is up for grabs.  First priority is people who helped me in the past (like Luc, "Saifu", etc) after that I'll give out on the basis of informal trades.  That is to say it is on the honor system and unless you always require a trade to give something out, or you always charge for seeds, then I don't require anything in return (but ask if you have something interesting in the future that if you have extra please share with me).  If you do charge or do require seeds then I ask that we do a formal trade.

Kind of cheesy but I do plan on visiting the jumping cat temple- I do have to consult my deities when I'm there (hence meowmar).

95
When I interviewed the girl last year about the fruit, she gave me mostly good information, but with one error.  Here is what I recorded from our interview:

sour, but smells good…kepel means 'fist', tangerine sized... not sold in market..fruit rolled in hands like governor plum… lots of seed…yellow fleshed…a bit sweet

It is not sour, and I think she meant not that there are many seeds, but that the proportion of seed to flesh is high.  I was so happy to learn that the fruit should be rolled in the hands.  I know for governor plum that knowledge makes a big difference in the taste of the fruit.  I have not yet tried keppel unrolled to taste the difference.

I google translated something from Indonesian saying that the skin fights bad breath (I assume that is what "mouth deodorizer" means) but I can't imagine anyone eating the skin just as it is.  My local contacts have not heard this.

I've heard kepel varries in flavor quite a bit.  The description I usually hear is "mango + cinnamon".  The ones I had in CATIE were not terribly impressive, they were basically like a watered down and simplified mango (in flavor).

Legends about kepel are common.  There are some old legends that claim if you eat it you will smell like violets (I wonder if something is lost in translation there because I'm not sure that violets are native to Indonesia).  I ate 6-9 fruits in CATIE and nothing about me smelled any better than before (I wasn't seriously expecting it to, though I thought it might have an "asparagus" like effect on some things produced).

I really like the way kepel trees look.  They tend to be gnarled, that plus the califlori makes them look cool.  On my first trip to Indonesia I didn't notice the kepel trees, but on my second trip I kept seeing them (in various Kraton's and other sites).

96
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: How much do you like this forum?
« on: November 26, 2012, 01:03:13 PM »
I love this forum.  Some days I check it before I check my email or facebook.  Discovering this forum and reading some of the posts, I felt like an athiest who walked into a library and saw Zeus, Thor and Krishna talking at a table.

You feel like an athiest who walked into a library and saw Zeus,...?

So I guess that means you've talked to a doctor about taking psychatric medications after seeing this forum?

My favorite posts are ones about esoteric fruits (like your's about odd bacurrea...)

97
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: sete capotes flowering
« on: November 22, 2012, 09:48:12 PM »

ahaha ;D BTW Dan, did you see the vid on Cambuci?

Where is the vid?  Actually maybe I shouldn't watch it... might blow my mind.

98
No problem in Central FL pushing the zone limits of this tree.

It gets less credit than it deserves for being well adapted to our region (almost as cold hearty as a guava).

they've grown so big and fast near me, that they've had to be cut in half (40ft tree, to a 20ft tree)

In the wrong location, (like the NW side of a house, thats on the south east side of a giant field) this plant will suffer horribly when the temps dip below 32F (with proper dry windy conditions).

I'm not sure about it being a problem well outside of it's zone limits (say 9a), I think this tree could be fruited in a pot, and in a greenhouse up in Ohio.  Although the tree will be a beast, and grow into a 25 gal pot in about 4 yrs with proper care.

The trick will be maintaining warmth, and suppressing the tree's size, and encouraging lateral growth.

D. virginiana should help with all of that.  It doesn't seem to grow as big or fast as black sapote.  And it should confer a few degrees more of cold hardiness (still below freezing the budwood probably won't last).  Sounds like a good experiment (even if some others have tried).

People in Fl who have to deal with others picking their fruits might want to do the opposite.  Graft american persimmon onto black sapote, grow it at the border, and watch theves with puckered in mouths.

99
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Best Photo Contest
« on: November 21, 2012, 02:34:54 PM »
For those who haven't voted, PLEASE help our entrants by casting yours.  It should only take a few seconds.  Hard to believe we've only gotten 28 votes from 21 entries out of 500+ members, provided there are lots of inactive members, there should be plenty more to determine this.

I submitted but didn't vote as I don't trust myself  :)

I'm curious is there some way to see where the vote tally is at?

100
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: sete capotes flowering
« on: November 21, 2012, 02:33:20 PM »
I agree with you, Sérgio ;) Cambuci and Palilo are also top notch fruit in the Campomanesia genus 8) Cambuci is on top of my list...need to do some hunting ;) Quem procura, sempre achá ;D

You guys got me drooling... and it isn't even Thanksgiving yet!

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