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Messages - SoCal2warm

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You're right, your mangosteen doesn't look all that absolutely healthy and pristine. Maybe I shouldn't have planted mine in an open area.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Seeds wanted to purchase
« on: November 13, 2018, 12:11:38 AM »
Someday I'd like to open a citrus seed store, providing fresh seeds just harvested from fruits. Customers would have to subscribe to a waiting list, with their contact information, so the seeds would be sent out when they were ready.

The trouble with citrus seeds, they're not available when YOU want them, they're available when the seller has them. And that's just not how business tends to work usually.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: November 12, 2018, 06:44:14 PM »
This is in zone 8, and I don't think any of this would be worth attempting if it was even in zone 7b.
I have read a few reports of non-hardy gardenia varieties occasionally being able to survive around the sound in this region (which seems very encouraging, if true).

As for fruiting, I'm not truly sure if that will happen. Unlike much of the rest of the PNW region further North along the sound, we do get some heat here in the Summer (although it's not a long Summer, and the nights can often still get pretty cool).
The Satsuma is in a cold frame enclosure outside, that's not going to be opened up until April, so surely that's going to be acting as a greenhouse of sorts, giving it the extra heat it needs (at least on clear sunny days).
It's also important to take into consideration that citrus grown from seed (not on rootstock) will be less precocious and take much longer until it begins fruiting, even though I think own-root citrus are more vigorous and hardy in this zone 8 climate. This combined with the shorter growing season and cooler Northerly climate could mean that it could take a very long time before a citrus tree begins fruiting, and the tree might be quite big by the time that happens. That's why I wouldn't necessarily give up on a seed-grown tree just because it's been growing for 10 years.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: November 12, 2018, 11:26:18 AM »
November 12, it's the first day with frost. There's a light frost covering the ground.
It's about 8 degrees colder right now than it is in Seattle.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« on: November 12, 2018, 07:48:44 AM »
One common cause of delayed graft failure, it is believed, is differences in growth rate between the rootstock and scion.
Some varieties grow at different rates than others.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Citrus medica variety identification
« on: November 11, 2018, 10:46:13 PM »
I'm not an expert on citron varieties, but the shape seems consistent with Florentine citron, which is one of the most common varieties.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Oroblanco
« on: November 11, 2018, 04:19:35 PM »
How do you test if the seedling is tetraploid?
There's no easy certain test, but generally the leaves of tetraploids tend to be just a little bit bigger.

You might go find the thread "about how to breed seedless citrus varieties" starting at post number 3. Ilya11 posted some good information.

I put a plant cover over it


Citrus General Discussion / Re: Oroblanco
« on: November 11, 2018, 12:56:47 AM »
It would be interesting to know the ploidy level.
There's also a small chance the seedling could be tetraploid.
Due to the much lower viability of triploid seed formation (when they are zygotic; this doesn't affect nucellar seed), a substantially greater proportion of the viable sexual gametes are unreduced. An unreduced 3n gamete can then combine with a normal 1n haploid, resulting in a 4n zygote.

There was one study that found a tetraploid in 1 out of 24 Oroblanco seeds.

(The much less common naturally unreduced gametes do not suffer from the triploid viability problems since they never underwent meiosis, that's why their ratio becomes higher among the viable seeds, since there are fewer viable seeds)


Still in the 80s during the day, though the nights are cooling off.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Identification for 'Citrus pages'.
« on: November 09, 2018, 02:58:10 PM »
not sure if this may be of any relevance:
After studying Citrus macroptera and other members of the subgenus Papeda and observing the hybrids between them and species of the subgenus Citrus that are common in the Philippines, Swingle became convinced that a hybrid such as Tanaka thought his Citrus polyandra to be (Citrus macroptera X C. medica) could not possibly show a wingless petiole, even though one supposed parent, the citron, has an almost completely wingless petiole, because the other supposed parent, C. macroptera, has a very long, very broadly winged petiole (certainly the largest petiole to be found in Citrus).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Yuzu... my new obsession!
« on: November 08, 2018, 10:33:50 PM »
Lebmung your Yuzu tree has so SERIOUS thorns.  It must have been grown from seed.
New growth on Yuzu, especially young plants, have lots of big thorns. One of my trees (small to medium sized) has thorns that are more than 2 inches long.
These things could pop a car tire.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Pawpaw inquiry
« on: November 08, 2018, 09:40:12 PM »
They will grow in zone 9. However, in Texas, I'd give them a little bit of shade, as long as they're young.
The summers in Texas can be really hot and dry, depending on where you are, which can put a strain on pawpaws.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Identification for 'Citrus pages'.
« on: November 08, 2018, 08:11:09 PM »
Lebmung, your macroptera is probably a hybrid because the wings seem too small.
If it was grown from a seedling and C. macroptera is not a real species, then that may just be normal variation.
I suspect C. macroptera (the general variety, not Jara lemon) may be a kaffir lime x sour orange hybrid, or something along those lines.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Identification for 'Citrus pages'.
« on: November 08, 2018, 08:06:33 PM »
Here are the leaves of what I believe is Citrus macroptera (dark green) and leaves of Kaffier lime..
That variety of C. macroptera you have obviously has a pronounced winged petiole, although not as much as kaffir lime.
If it doesn't come from a relation to kaffir lime, one wonders where it came from.

Obviously Jara lemon is only one subvariety of C. macroptera, and at this point I'm thinking it may have originated from a hybrid between C. macroptera and C. medica, although that is speculative. I don't think the C. macroptera you have is Jara lemon.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Identification for 'Citrus pages'.
« on: November 08, 2018, 02:34:35 PM »
This paper refers to it as Citrus macroptera var. anammensis

I would probably classify it as a hybrid between the C. medica and C. hystrix groups, and if it was in fact derived from the variety C. macroptera, likely some C. aurantium as well (but I wouldn't use that for broad categorization purposes).

If you look at other pictures of "Jara lemon" fruits you can definitely see a resemblance to kaffir lime (bumpy skin and green).
Many citron varieties can of course also be bumpy, but doesn't look like they are quite as bumpy as a Jara lemon.
Kaffir limes are similar to Jara lemons in that inside flesh of the fruits are not valued because the flavor is not as good, and they are more valued for their rinds.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Identification for 'Citrus pages'.
« on: November 08, 2018, 11:02:58 AM »
SoCal2warm, everything you said is wrong.
Really? Did you see those two links I provided?

Citrus Pages is a serious site. I don't look for answers like "it might be", "it seems", "is probably", "or perhaps".
My question is: Is there someone who knows the classification of Jara lebu?
You obviously did not bother to look up the English Wikipedia entry on it.

Do you even know what macroptera means? Very winged petiole.
As the pictures and movies show, the leaves are like lemon/citron. so it cannot be kaffir lime, or macroptera!

We usually use the petiole to differentiate lemons and citrons. Lemons leaves are articulated, citrons leaves are not.
On the pictures and videos it seams the leaves are not articulated but it is hard to be sure.
Actual morphological traits are not necessarily always connected to the name in specific instances.

Jara lemon may very likely have some citron ancestry in it as well. It's not uncommon for such mixture to exist. (for example, Key lime has both citron and C. micrantha ancestry)

That could very likely explain why this variant of "C. macroptera" does not display winged petioles.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Identification for 'Citrus pages'.
« on: November 08, 2018, 01:24:51 AM »
One more thing, I'm not sure how hardy "Jara lemon" is specifically, but kaffir lime is a lot hardier than regular limes and can grow in zone 9.

(kaffir lime is not a true lime, kaffir is descended from the species C. latipes whereas limes are descended from the species C. micrantha, although both species are classified under papedas. In the specific case of "Jara lemon" it seems its genetic composition is probably a mix of sour orange and C. hystrix, or perhaps from C. latipes more directly.)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Identification for 'Citrus pages'.
« on: November 07, 2018, 11:14:40 PM »
Looks like it might be related to kaffir lime.

You might look up Citrus macroptera.
subvariety annamensis

A cultivar of C. macroptera var. annamensis known as 'Sat Kara', is grown primarily in the Sylhet division of northeastern Bangladesh where it is called "hatkora" or "shatkora"

The oils in the peels are very fragrant and exported for use in perfume.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Snek ́s citrus container plantation
« on: November 07, 2018, 06:27:53 PM »
Have you tried removing all the leaves (any leaf that is even the slightest bit affected, look carefully), thoroughly spraying the entire plant with fungicide for two weeks, and then quarantining the plants for three months? Give another application of spray 2 weeks later, and preferrabbly use at least two different types of fungicides. I would give the soil a spray too, and maybe even change out the top layer of soil. Make sure the quarantine area is not in an area where too much humidity will build up (but not too excessively dry either).

To treat many diseases you will have to spray 2 or 3 separate times in intervals of 8-15 days. That's the best way to be thorough.
I would also completely disinfect your grow area, and run some hot dry air through there for a few days. Inspect the plants in periodic intervals (2 weeks) and remove afflicted ones into a separate quarantine area for treatment.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Amazing Changsha tangerine survived 8F freeze!
« on: November 07, 2018, 06:05:09 PM »
That makes me really hopeful here.
I just looked up the record and 8F is the coldest temperature that's ever been recorded in Olympia, WA.
While you were being hit with an unusual freeze on the East Coast, there were big camellia bushes everywhere in bloom here on New Years Day.
I've even run into a few reports of non-hardy gardenia varieties sometimes being able to survive outside in this region.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« on: November 06, 2018, 04:02:16 AM »
From that picture of the graft union, it looks like that rootstock may have been too slow growing.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citreae tribe hardiness
« on: November 05, 2018, 10:36:04 PM »
There is Severinia buxifolia (Chinese Box Orange), supposedly hardy to zone 8 (maybe only 8b).

Hybrids have been made with Citrus:

Also quick mention to another only recently discovered rare species, Poncirus polyandra.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Name game
« on: November 05, 2018, 10:25:56 PM »
So what? Yes they both are in the Papeda group!
It's possible Yuzu could be its own species, with close relation to Ichang papeda, but there are several things that point in the other direction.

If they are so closely related to each other, like the DNA marker analysis seems to infer, what are the chances that the two would develop to be so different, with Yuzu taking a strong resemblance to mandarin? It is believed hybridization is the more likely possibility. It could even have its origins in an ambiguous zone between "natural species" and "artificial" hybridization. I don't think anyone is really 100 percent certain.

In terms of genetic marker studies, Yuzu usually groups closely to Ichangensis, but look at this study, they have Yuzu grouped in the mandarin group instead of Lemon/Lime/Ichangensis: (Fig 2, but you can also see Fig 1)
(however, in all fairness, since a few different varieties in that mandarin cluster, like Kabosu and Sudachi, also have descent from Yuzu, it could have thrown off the matching algorithm and made Yuzu wrongly cluster with mandarins)

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