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Messages - SoCal2warm

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1
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Growing rare cold-hardy hybrid
« on: August 11, 2020, 12:29:56 PM »
Poncirus in New England tended to stay green, some all winter.  These were smaller plants, and trees also seem to become more deciduous as they get older.  In the south, some are turning color now, and more will color up later.  I have speculated that the rapid onset of cold in the north keeps them from forming an abscission layer. 
Rather I would speculate that it may be just the opposite. In the North, temperatures begin consistently going down long before the first frost. Whereas in the South, the temperatures can fluctuate more between warm and very cold days. It is well known that citrus leaves do not tolerate wide fluctuations in temperature like this and that this can cause them to drop.
In the North, you do not really have "cold spells", it's more of just a colder season. Once it gets cold, it does not warm up again. The leaves can stay in a state of dormancy without being woken up.

That is what I would think.

2
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: August 11, 2020, 12:14:18 PM »
I also have numerous Yuzu (both seedlings and ones grafted onto rootstock). They have all done very well. Even two of the ones that were grafted onto rootstock and left in containers outside during the cold (2018-2019) winter. After the winter, they did not look good, and I thought they might not survive, and would just decline until they finally died, but I planted them in the ground, and they both are putting out healthy leaf growth now. They seem to be on track to fully recover. Yuzu seems to be a vigorous growing variety and can easily recover here.

I would say that Yuzu is the best performing variety here (with only the possible exception of the Dunstan citrumelo).

3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: August 11, 2020, 12:01:32 PM »
here's the tiny keraji seedling, it's put on some noticeable growth over the last week, although still nothing impressive:


The Ichangquat still hasn't really done anything, still has its leaves from last year, but no new leaves. The leaves are green but not the healthiest color, still somewhat of a pale yellowish green:


The Ichang papeda (this one growing on own roots), leaves do not look the healthiest dark green color as well


But the other ichangquat seedling (picture not shown in this thread), that was presumably pollinated by a citrumelo, it has been growing out new leaf growth that is a dark green healthy color. Perhaps its leaves look healthier because they grew out later into the year, when temperatures have stayed consistently warmer.

August 11, 2020

4
It's growing out leaves well now, and they are a healthy dark green color

Aug 11

5
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 27, 2020, 05:35:50 PM »
Yuzu bush on grafted rootstock, doing very well


Bloomsweet, big healthy looking leaves

It's still not that big, needs more time to get established

Dunstan citrumelo

Doing pretty good, moderately vigorous

July 27, 2020


No fruits from these plants yet, they need to get bigger first

keeping them well watered, that's the secret to getting them to put on growth in the summer here, since conditions are now getting hot and dry

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 27, 2020, 05:17:10 PM »
here's the leaf growth coming out of one spot on one of the little side branches of the Ten Degree Tangerine.


Again, it wasn't able to successfully put out any leaf growth last year, although it tried, so this is a good sign.

(Ten Degree is a cross between Clementine and Yuzu, for any of you who did not know)

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 26, 2020, 05:35:06 PM »
Citrus won't grow with nights 55F or lower at least where I live near Houston
Well, you have to remember these are hardy varieties of citrus.

Nighttime low temperatures for the month of July have ranged between about 46 and 54, with two nights going down to 44.

I took the data for the nighttime lows for the first 15 days in the month of July, and got an average of 50.


Maybe citrus where you are do not deal with the widely fluctuating temperatures as well, since daytime temperatures in Texas (where you are) can get very hot.



By the way, it has just begun to finally warm up. Clear sunny days. Temperature right now at 2:30 in the middle of the day is 83 F.

I'm seeing some obvious growth on the tiny Keraji seedling now. Still no growth on the Ichangquat, but the leaves from last year appear to be greening up more, and I would guess they are functional.

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: July 24, 2020, 07:54:43 PM »
I've been thinking about crossing Tetraploid poncirus with regullar poncirus, both with better taste and select triploid seedless more edible poncirus, but I am not sure if it's possible without in vitro technic Embryo rescue and how to idntify triploid one...
It's both easily possible to make a cross, and easy to identify the triploid by its fruits. Triploids will be relatively seedless (or at least obviously far fewer seeds, sometimes tiny shriveled up seeds).

(Of course, you will actually have to grow the seedling until it becomes big enough to fruit, to determine that)

9
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 23, 2020, 04:03:26 PM »
This has been an unusual summer. We haven't had many hot days so far, in June or July. (writing this as of July 23)
It's 62 F right now, 1:00 in the middle of the day. Yesterday I had a wool sweater on.
The first half of June was downright cold, with a few days where the temperature didn't even get above 59 F.

This is probably not giving the citrus as much chance to put on growth.

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 22, 2020, 05:10:15 PM »
tiny Keraji seedling just beginning to put on new growth



This is the Ichangquat seedling. It hasn't really done much. The leaves from last year are still alive but do not really look the healthiest and are not a deep hue of green. It has not grown any new leaves so far this year, nor is there any sign of new green buds.

The leaves are green, more green than any other color, but a little bit pale and yellowish, though they have been recovering their green color hue over the past several months.


Here's a close up of some small new leaf growth coming out of the Ichangquat seedling that presumably had been pollinated by a citrumelo:

This had been growing inside, and then I planted it outside during late January. Some of the side branches died back and it defoliated, but it now seems to be starting to regrow.

11
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Maypops (in zone 6a/5)?
« on: July 21, 2020, 08:06:26 PM »
Maypops will likely be able to survive zone 6 if you are further in the South, and have a longer growing season with lots of heat. They completely die back each winter, but they are fast growers and will completely regrow their vines and be able to flower.

Supposedly they can survive zone 5, but that may be more difficult.

Maypop is closely related to passion fruit flower.

12
Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Help my pear tree
« on: July 21, 2020, 08:02:05 PM »
If the leaves look fine, you should immediately cut off the fruit and put it in the trash.
The tree will most likely be fine.

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 21, 2020, 04:59:43 PM »
here's the Yuzu seedling, in ground

July 21

so far it has made it through two winters (well, actually two and a half sort of)

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: July 21, 2020, 02:39:52 PM »
Amazing, my Ten Degree Tangerine is finally beginning to put out some leaf growth, after last year not being able to put out any leaves (after the damage from the very cold winter).
I see a small little leaf beginning to grow on it, a real leaf, not just a green bud trying to leaf. There are about four little leaflets all together in a little bunch, just a little over half an inch long (1.5 cm). It really looks like these will be able to grow out this year.

July 21

15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: N1triVoss
« on: July 20, 2020, 06:17:06 PM »
for whatever it's worth, here's my little seedling from N1tri



16
The plant ended up defoliating, and there was side branch die-back. The main trunk stem is still deep green and healthy looking though. It has just started to put out some new leaflet growth from two of the less damaged little branches.


If this behaves like Yuzu seedlings I have planted in the past, this may be able to recover.
I probably shouldn't have transferred it outside in January, but I think it would have struggled with the transition outside no matter what time of the year I moved it, it seems from my prior experience doing this.

That it is sending out new leaf growth is a very good sign.

My other Ichangquat seedling still has all its leaves from last year, they are green and alive but kind of pale and yellowish, not the healthiest color, and the plant has put on absolutely no new leaf growth so far. It is alive so I am waiting for signs of leaf growth. So far it appears less resilient than Yuzu seedlings.

17
I will be conducting a specific test over this winter.
The below picture shows two Ichang papeda plants, one on trifoliate rootstock, the other rooted from a cutting on its own roots.

This side by side experiment should be interesting, because I specifically wanted to look at ichangensis and related hardy citrus to ichangensis, and specifically wanted to look at this behavior in zone 8.
Soon we should have a more sure answer whether ichangensis grows better on rootstock or not, when surviving cold climate conditions.
I can provide an update to the results of my test. (as of June 29, 2020)
It seems that both plants have done about equally as well. But the one growing on its own roots has much larger new leaves, in terms of size of the leaves. (I do not believe this is simply due to it getting a head start over the other)
However, they both appear equally vigorous, I would say. The one on the rootstock looks like it has the same energy as the other one, but it is holding back and pacing itself.

The older leaves (from last year prior to the winter) on both do not look very healthy. Still alive and slightly green, but more pale and yellowish.

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: June 27, 2020, 02:34:31 PM »
Bloomsweet


The Bloomsweet is putting on some decent growth now, some big healthy looking leaves, and it seems to be recovering well.

small Ichang papeda seedling, the dark reddish new leaves have now turned green


Here's the small Yuzu seedling (on its own roots)



Changsha mandarin (on grafted rootstock, picture not shown) also is doing very well. planted in a sort of protected spot on south-facing side of house.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: June 17, 2020, 05:53:46 PM »
Ichang papeda seedling


June 17, 2020

The darker reddish leaves are the new growth the seedling has put out so far this year.
This little seedling is growing in the ground, outside, survived the winter here unprotected.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 17, 2020, 12:50:31 AM »
Sorry if I got kind of short with you. I was in a frustrated mood (not really about you, it involved a discussion in another forum).
And sorry for underestimating your knowledge of fruit tree growing.

I do get frustrated at people when they post something, but don't bother posting [what I feel are] the critical details.

For example, when people post a picture of something that is growing for them outside, but they don't say where they are, what climate zone, whether they protected it over the winter, etc, it's almost worthless for them to share that without the information.

I feel sorry for you you're having so much trouble. As you well know, your spot is probably not the most ideal for explorations into permaculture, as beautiful as the spot might otherwise be.

I don't want to get too far off-topic, but I've developed a theory that the reason the North American continent (north of Mexico) wasn't very populated was simply that so much of the climate is not very conducive to agriculture, for one reason of another. It was not until widescale irrigation much later, and all the technology that went along with that, that allowed crops to be grown in dry areas.

21
Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Ichang papeda available
« on: June 16, 2020, 05:52:23 PM »
It seems like no one care about the ichang papeda.
I think you may be right, from what I've noticed.

I can't understand it, but then again I love lemons, so maybe I am a bit personally biased.

I am working on breeding a seedless yuzu with better freeze tolerance using my seedless ichang papeda and yuzu. People might be interest more in seedless yuzu I guess.
That sounds interesting. Maybe you will get something that is a little bit more cold tolerant than regular yuzu. Maybe with a little bit of a different flavor too.

Be aware though that something like around 90% of the seeds in a Yuzu will be nucellar (i.e. clones of the parent yuzu fruit), so you will likely have to grow a lot of seedlings.
Maybe you can help prematurely identify hybrids among them by leaf shape, but then you will likely be throwing out some other good candidates as well.

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 16, 2020, 04:03:04 PM »
Citradia, could you tell us where you got the fruit from? Were you able to see the parent tree that the fruit came from? Did the leaves on the parent tree look similar to that seedling, or did they look more like ichangensis leaves, with a very symmetrically sized leaf petiole?

That will help us determine what your seedling might actually be.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 16, 2020, 03:59:30 PM »
a flowering Ichang Papeda seedling in my backyard. A very tiny plant. Probably not a pure one.
I don't know, it is very hard to tell. The petioles in that picture look big enough that it just might be possible it could be pure ichangensis, but they also look significantly smaller enough that it really might not be.

If it is not pure, I would think it would probably have to be some ichangensis x ichangensis hybrid of some sort, maybe ichangensis x yuzu.

I grew several seedlings from ichangquat, and they displayed a variety of different leaf types, but none of them looked so close to ichangensis as that.

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 15, 2020, 11:47:14 PM »
Sorry for the negativity, but Iíve had a bad day; Today I cut down eleven apricot, plum, and other trees that have underperformed for the past several years. Iím sick of plants Iíve put so much effort into that just donít work. Itís ironic that I get better quality and quantity fruit production out of my satsumas and grapefruit here in NC with winter protection than I get out of apples, peaches, plums. The only things that I get a harvest from here are grafted citrus, Montmorancy cherries, blueberries, and rowan, paw paw.
Not to get too off-topic, but it's the climate.
Ironically, the same reason why your citrus is able to put on so much growth during much of the year is likely the same reason why your apricot and plum trees do not do so well; it's the heat and humidity. Apricots tend to do much better in the drier Western half of the US. Where you are, I would imagine the trees would require a lot of spray to keep the disease level down, not to mention insect pests.

As for peaches, you're also a little too far north (on the East Coast) to get good consistent crops, since the blossoms are vulnerable to late spring freezes.

I would imagine persimmons would do well for you (although it might be beneficial to choose the slightly hardier varieties).


This link might be useful to you and gives a listing of late-blooming fruit varieties that can help avoid damage from spring frosts:
https://midwestpermaculture.com/2017/03/late-flowering-fruit-trees-avoid-frost-damage/


I was hoping for something slightly better than poncirus that could survive here without having to build a greenhouse around it
You are in climate zone 6b ! Not a lot in the citrus family is going to be able to survive there, unprotected. Have you tried US 852 ? That's about the only thing I can think of that's a little better than poncirus that may be able to survive for you.

25
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangensis froze to death, then bloomed.
« on: June 15, 2020, 09:36:52 PM »
I planted the seeds myself from an ichangensis fruit.
Sorry, Citradia, you're not really giving us enough details here.

The fruit, did it come from a plant you yourself were able to see? If so, how did the leaves on that parent plant look?

If itís a hybrid, oh well, itís not very cold hardy, so it can freeze to death again for all I care.
Citradia, you're in zone 6b. Many others in zones 7 to 8 might be interested in such a new hybrid, assuming it's not just Ichang lemon.
Which would again depend on details you have not given us.


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