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Messages - SoCal2warm

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The Daidai citrus I've had at past citrus shows were nasty bitter orange. I wouldn't eat it but that's just me.
That was no doubt Citrus taiwanica, Nanshodaidai, a very different fruit.

(Natsu means Summer in Japanese, while Nansho was the name the Japanese used to refer to the prefecture that is today Taiwan)

I think that natsumikan is not eaten fresh.
I think it can be eaten fresh, in my opinion, having tasted it. I tasted it in the Winter, so it had probably been hanging on the tree since Summer.
If you like bitter grapefruits or enjoy Ugli fruit.

It's certainly much more palatable than Chinotto sour orange.

But again, even though the inside has grapefruit bitterness, the white pith just under the peel doesn't have any bitterness, so in a certain way that makes it easier to eat because you don't have to worry about peeling off all the pith from the segments.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Anamatsu dai dai ? Does anybody know ?
« on: April 18, 2019, 06:54:14 PM »
I have Natsu daidai. I plucked one of the fruits from a big tree in the Los Angeles county Arboretum. (The tree was loaded with fruits and many had already fallen to the ground, so I didn't think anyone would mind)

I believe this tree is also known as Natsumikan (best translation: Summer Orange) in Japan. I think Amanatsu may be a particular variety of Natsumikan that is a little bit sweeter.

The fruits are like a mix between orange, grapefruit, and sour orange, and have just a little bit more bitterness than a grapefruit. I was able to enjoy eating it, but I'm not sure if everyone would. Certainly something different, a delicacy.
 The flavor and aroma were reminiscent of Jamaican Ugli fruit (another type of grapefruit).

It would probably make great marmalade too.

Oh, also to mention, unlike normal grapefruit the pith is sweet and not bitter. They make candied rind out of this fruit in Japan.

It has a fairly high number of seeds, so I have germinated a few.

It probably has a level of cold hardiness similar to Satsuma mandarin, I would guess.
I read one report of someone in London growing a Natsumikan tree right up against the side of their house unprotected and it fruited. (Not sure how much this really demonstrates cold hardiness though because I've also seen a picture of a big grapefruit tree fruiting up against an apartment block in London, and the temperatures within the city don't really drop that low)

I've also read a report the fruits can survive on the tree down to 18 °F, perhaps due to the protective effect of the thick skin, which would be fairly remarkable if true.

The fruits ripen in Summer, so need to stay on the tree through the Winter.

The original story in Japan is that this variety originated when a woman on the East side of Japan found a fruit washed up on the sea shore, and grew the seeds.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: April 18, 2019, 05:06:29 PM »
here's a close up of the trunk

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Passe Crassane pear
« on: April 18, 2019, 09:22:50 AM »
Yup, The passe crassane pear is exactly like in the photo linked above.
The French article claims it was a cross between pear and quince.

This could just be a rumor, however. I am not able to find any original sources.

En 1855, à Rouen, le pépiniériste Louis Boisbunel a l'idée de croiser une poire avec un coing. Leur enfant est la passe-crassane. Elle a hérité d'un peu de la physionomie de son « père » : elle est très joufflue, presque ronde, parfois bosselée. Sa peau est jaune marbrée d'ocre. Vous trouverez cette poire, plutôt bon marché, de décembre à avril.

In 1855, in Rouen, the nurseryman Louis Boisbunel has the idea to cross a pear with a quince. Their child is the crassane passer. She inherited a little of the physiognomy of her "father": she is very chubby, almost round, sometimes bumpy. Its skin is yellow marbled with ocher. You will find this pear, rather cheap, from December to April.

also entry in L'Encyclopédie visuelle des aliments, 1996, Quebec, page 213 :
La poire passe crassane est originaire de France créée en 1855 lorsque l'arboriculteur normand Louis Boisbunel croisa une poire avec un coing. C'est la poire d'hiver par excellence, car elle se conserve facilement.
created in 1855 when the Norman arborist Louis Boisbunel crossed a pear with a quince. It's the ultimate winter pear because it can be preserved

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Thorn Proof Gloves?
« on: April 17, 2019, 05:50:08 PM »
I saw a video from Japan of pickers wearing gloves while picking fruit from Yuzu trees.

You might look into kevlar gloves.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: April 17, 2019, 05:43:46 PM »
The citrumelo is beginning to put on new growth (light green leaf buds above leaves)

The Satsuma and Bloomsweet (even though they were covered) appear to have suffered more damage than I thought, which didn't become fully evident until things recently began warming up. I'm not sure if the Bloomsweet is going to survive. Leaves are still yellow-green and look alive but sickly, but the trunk looks all grey and almost dead.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: Passe Crassane pear
« on: April 17, 2019, 03:56:58 PM »
It is believed Passe Crassane is a pear-quince hybrid, but not known for sure. However, there are a number of things that point to that direction. Very dwarfed growing habit, parthenocarpic fruits, very good compatibility on quince (which the great majority of pear cultivars do not have, with the notable exception of Comice). Not to mention the very firm and hard fruits, notorious susceptibility to fireblight of this variety, several other things as well.

"...the passé-crassane, is actually a pear-quince hybrid that was developed in Normandy. It is particularly useful in cooking because of its firm, grainy flesh, but it is also tasty eaten raw." (The 150 Healthiest Foods on Earth: The Surprising, Unbiased Truth about What You Should Eat and Why, by Jonny Bowden, p144 )

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichangquat and Ichang papeda
« on: April 16, 2019, 03:31:20 PM »
They are of the third generation.
B.Voss got the seeds from initial hybrid made in Florida; selected and multiplied by grafting one very strong plant.
My tree is one of these grafts.
Thank you, Ilya, that's very interesting, I did not know that.

Its seeds are 100% zygotic and one third of them contains embryos with green cotyledons like its kumquat ancestor.
It seemed more like two thirds of my seedlings had cotyledons.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Ichangquat and Ichang papeda
« on: April 16, 2019, 01:23:00 AM »
My three Ichang papeda cuttings have all begun to show signs of leafing out. Here's one of them:

They are just small cuttings, but the cups are covered with plastic cling wrap to hold in the humidity, and the cups are inside a warm mylar lined grow tent enclosure in a warm room.

These are Ichangquat seedlings:

I have to say most of the Ichanquat seedlings are very vigorous growing, I think even more vigorous than Yuzu.
Now there are a few Ichangquat seedlings that are not as vigorous growing, and it certainly seems the Ichangquat seedlings show more variability than Yuzu seedlings.

The leaf characteristics on the Ichanquat seedlings also show variability. 2 of them looked semi-narrow, a little bit like kumquat, one of them looked narrow like kumquat, a few seem to have slight winged petioles like Yuzu, one of them with a slightly bigger winged petiole maybe more like pomelo, but the remaining six seedlings all seem to display rather ordinary leaf type. It's as if the two leaf characteristic traits of the original species parents cancelled each other out.

These seedlings are of course the second generation from the cross between Ichang papeda x kumquat.

(Much thanks to Ilya for the seeds)

I have been grow very many other types of seedlings and the only ones that are near as vigorous growing as Ichangquat are lemon and Oroblanco grapefruit.
(I've grown a few of each, so I think I have a large enough pool to make some statistical observations)

I have two US 852 (Changsha x trifoliate) and two TaiTri (Taiwanica x trifoliate) seedlings and they haven't seemed to do as well, only moderately vigorous growing and they've all displayed leaf yellowing.

Unfortunately I can't comment on Ichang papeda seedlings since I've never grown them. Vigor is a good sign for cold hardiness, I believe, although obviously not all vigorous citrus are cold hardy.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Orri Mandarin
« on: April 15, 2019, 01:30:09 AM »
There are so many mandarins on the market there days, more or less they all taste much the same.  Some are a little sweeter, and some are a little more acidic.  All in all mandarins are mandarins.
That's mostly true, but is not quite all true.
You've obviously never tried a Shasta Gold or a fresh Satsuma that was just picked from the tree of a very mature (15+ years) tree.
Also no one is going to say that a Page mandarin tastes like a regular mandarin.

Shasta Gold also has some Temple Orange in its lineage, so I suspect there may be some similarity in flavor to Orri.

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Passe Crassane pear
« on: April 14, 2019, 08:54:42 PM »
Here's a rare pear variety, 'Passe Crassane', which is actually a pear x quince hybrid

solid zone 10, Southern California
It did produce two fruits last year but they did not really fully ripen, and then fell off the tree. Neither of the fruits contained viable looking seeds.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Orri Mandarin
« on: April 14, 2019, 07:17:07 PM »
It's a hybrid of Temple Orange and Dancy.

(I've never gotten the opportunity to taste Temple Orange but it's supposed to be well renowned for its flavor, and is actually itself believed to be an orange-mandarin hybrid)

In ancient times, the word corresponding with "apple" actually referred to quince. (Modern large edible dessert-quality apples were yet to exist in Europe at that time)
So "Persian Apple" would have actually been a very apt description of a citron at that time.
Both fruits are yellow, hard, and very fragrant. Citrons actually have a little bit of a substance called ionones in their fragrance, which smell like violet flowers. The fragrance of quince includes this substance as well.
Both citron and quince are high in pectin, and so there are some similarities for culinary uses.

Citron probably came from the Northeastern region of India, diseminated over time across India and into the Persian Empire (typically as an exotic luxury item in the gardens of the wealthy), and then was taken by the Jews to Israel.

It wouldn't be until around 1000 AD that the next citrus variety arrived in Europe, the sour orange, and then another 300 years after that until the sweet orange arrived (though it would take another 200 years or so for it to become popular and spread).

I enjoyed  your disclaimers 😈

I am just coming up with very speculative theory, based on scant available evidence.

We have DNA marker analysis that can point out some relationships, and some historical records.
I'm just trying to combine those and make some sense out of this all.

Here's another proposed grouping of hardy citrus types

And influence of citrus maxima to mandarins?
The relationship being referred to would be artificial, due to human cultivation.
There was genetic introgression into the genepool of cultivated mandarins. I believe the humans noticed that some of these mandarins had better flavor and seemed to grow a bit better (hybrid vigor, if you want to look at it that way) and these mandarin cultivars gradually disseminated their way up North.

Perhaps citrus Taiwanica was one such mandarin-pomelo hybrid cultivar that escaped into the wild and became naturalized in Taiwan, undergoing some degree of further evolution. Taiwan has plenty of precipitation so lack of drought tolerance would not have been a problem there, but the island does have fairly severe freezes that come along about every 40 years, so there would have been natural selection for the most cold tolerant progeny.
We are talking in much older times, I doubt Taiwanica exists in the wild on the island anymore.

I'm looking at a map and the Chinese city of Yichang seems just a little further north of Changsha, about 320 km northwest.

That would lead me to believe that, while they may technically constitute separate species, the Changsha mandarin may just effectively be a natural evolutionary progression on the branch off between Ichang papeda and mandarins, which are native to the region a little bit further to the southeast.

I read an article in an old encyclopedia that stated that Ichang lemons [referring to Ichang papeda here, do not want to cause confusion] were actually cultivated (only in personal yards) in that area and sometimes were used by the inhabitants (or sold in markets) as lemons (probably inferior to ordinary lemons but that must have been all they had in that area), although they could also be found in the wild.

It's also possible there could have been genetic introgression at some point into the Changsha species from cultivated mandarin varieties, which also would have contained a small amount of pomelo ancestry.
I do not have any way of convincingly supporting this but I suspect the combination of pomelo genes to mandarins was able to increase the level of cold hardiness (even though pomelos are native to the region much furth south), perhaps because pomelo genes were able to provide more vigor to overcome cold damage. (suggestive evidence being the hardiness of Taiwanica lemon, many varieties of sour orange, and the fact that grapefruit varieties were able to be bred in Florida that were more hardy; furthermore I have grown many types of different seedlings and the Oroblanco pomelo-grapefruit hybrids appear to be the most vigorous and fastest growing, followed by pure pomelo)
I know this is very speculative.

If that's the case, Yuzu might ultimately be an evolutionary progression as well and constitute its own very closely related species.
Ancient Chinese texts refer to "oranges" (thought by modern scholars to be Yuzu) growing on the upper banks of the Yangtze river, and that area runs between the Yichang and Changsha area (much closer to Yichang than Changsha).

I would theorize that this may be a very closely related family of species, that had been developing and evolving in isolation in this area for a long time, and thus are not simple hybrids.
This region of Asia has a lot of localized biodiversity, due in part to the high productivity of the wet Summer season and long growing season.

In case you're wondering why pomelo genes might be able to add more vigor, and mandarins never independently evolved that, I found this:
"Water use for grapefruit and lemon is about 20 percent higher than that of oranges, while water use for mandarins is about 10% less."

I hypothesize there may be a trade-off between drought tolerance and vigor. As one goes further north in China there is less precipitation. So because the species needed to be able to survive rare years of drought, they were not able to take advantage of the full cold hardiness that would have come with more vigorous growth genes.

(A bit unrelated, but despite the higher water needs, pomelos can still tolerate higher amounts of sun than mandarins, which is not surprising either since pomelos are native to a region closer towards the equator)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Some rare variety hardy seedlings
« on: April 13, 2019, 08:18:38 PM »
TaiTri seedling (Taiwanica x trifoliate)

Citrus General Discussion / Re: What is the BEST Lemon Variety?
« on: April 13, 2019, 08:08:28 PM »
Kind of off-topic, but if I were trying to breed a new lemon variety, I would hybridize Citron with Duncan grapefruit and Yuzu, or maybe something like that.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: trying to root C. ichangensis
« on: April 11, 2019, 11:48:34 PM »
one of the C. ichangensis cuttings is already putting out new little leaflets

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Leggy satsuma mandarin
« on: April 09, 2019, 10:46:25 PM »
Trim off the apical bud if you want it to branch out.

If the natural behavior of a fruit tree ever baffles you, realize it's not truly natural, because your tree is grafted onto rootstock, which affects a lot of growth habit behavior that ends up needing to be compensated for.

And yes, you might have made it grow too fast. Don't expect any fruit this year.

Some other types of hardy citrus can be grown in parts of Germany

I've also read a report of Trifoliate Orange surviving and fruiting in Aarhus, Denmark (which is north of Germany).

I don't think wax apple roots are too invassive, and in any case wax apple does not tend to grow very vigorously in Southern California (scorching summers and lack of humidity), so you should be okay, but you might want to take a few light precautions just to be on the safe side.

I think the ones with the magenta flowers might have more cause to worry about than the ones with the white flowers.

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