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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Swamp Lemon Adventure!
« on: August 31, 2018, 01:56:06 PM »
The Swamp Lemon leaves were intermediate between the pure trifoliate and the citrange leaves.  Not proof, but suggests to me that it isn't pure trifoliate.
That thought entered my mind when I looked at the picture as well.

It could just be a seedling of citrange, or possibly there may have been some cross-pollination with the trifoliate population growing out in the wild, and then the plant that had fruits without a bitter taste were positively selected for by the birds, and spread faster than normal trifoliate would.
I'm thinking, for example, that maybe there was someone who planted a citrange tree outside, or maybe it came from a rootstock that had overgrown its scion and the owner did not realize it, probably a potted orange tree brought inside during the winter, and then a bee carried this citrange pollen to one of the surrounding trifoliate plants in the surrounding vicinity. Or maybe the pollen came from a potted Meyer lemon, and the trifoliate x Meyer lemon offspring managed to survive and grow to eventually blossom, and then to pollinate a trifoliate tree growing in the wild. Then one of the seeds from that fruit grew, and the animals spreading the seeds much preferred the taste of this new trifoliate variety, so there was genetic introgression into the local wild trifoliate population.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Swamp Lemon Adventure!
« on: August 31, 2018, 01:08:32 AM »
Swamp Lemon flower

Both the flowers and leaves look trifoliate in the pictures you posted.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Sneaky Lemon
« on: August 29, 2018, 06:36:02 PM »
Isn't "Grand Frost lemon" just an irradiated seedless version of Ichang lemon?

Oroblanco seedlings

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemons
« on: August 29, 2018, 12:08:20 PM »
Thread title: "can you grow citrus in north Carolina?"
November‎ ‎13‎, ‎2016‎

I've a crazy gardener friend here in Fayetteville NC

> picture of bowl of lemons <

who has a lemon tree , outside, about 20 years old. She picked bushels of lemons on Thursday and I was the recipient of about 40 lbs of them. They do nothing for overwintering. About 5 years ago I started a baby with some of the yearly stash and it too is outside doing great with no winter protection.
December‎ ‎14‎, ‎2016

A poster on the Citrus forum says the lemon fruit in the above picture looks exactly like an "Ichang lemon". After googling it, I think it does too. It's pretty cold hardy.

According to a climate zone map, Fayetteville seems to be right on the border between 8a and 7b.

So that seems to be about the limit of what Ichang lemon can handle in the hot climate of the South.
(Keep in mind North Carolina has a lot more heat than cooler climates further North, so that's certainly going to be helping it grow better and recover more rapidly from any damage)

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: What is the best lychee?
« on: August 28, 2018, 10:30:02 PM »
Anyone know what lychee varieties are best suited for the cooler locations?
Brewster was known to handle cold a little bit better than others, one of the reasons it was originally selected for Florida, and probably "mountain-type" cultivars like Mauritius and Emperor (though I'm not entirely sure about Mauritius). Hak ip is also mountain-type.

Many types of plants can be difficult to grow in hot dry climates.
Strategies include partial shade from the intense Summer sun, consistent watering and keeping the soil from getting too dried out (perhaps put down a layer of mulch), possibly wind protection to help prevent too much evaporation from the leaves. Having other plants nearby can help provide shade, lower surrounding temperatures a little bit and increase humidity levels, indirectly resulting in less water stress on the plant.

I'm growing several seedlings of Oroblanco and plan to use Oroblanco as the female parent in several crosses. Here's my reasoning for that.
The reason Oroblanco is seedless is because it is triploid. That was the whole point why it was bred to be triploid. The fact that it is triploid though shouldn't affect the formation of nucellar seeds. Only the formation of zygotic seeds would be aborted. In other words, for Oroblanco to be so relatively seedless, it probably can't be very inclined towards nucellar seeds (if it was there would be a lot more seeds). So, by crossing Oroblanco with another variety, I would assume that a fraction of that majority of potential seeds that don't normally form will form. Although only a small fraction of the pollinations will result in viable zygotic seeds, it's also true that only a fraction of the potential seeds, that don't normally form because Oroblanco is triploid, are nucellar. So from a probability viewpoint, there are two competing sides. The pool of potential zygotic seeds that have a small probability of forming are much bigger than the pool of nucellar seeds.

I've read sources elsewhere that say for grapefruit, somewhere in the range of 70-90% of the seeds that form are nucellar, and Oroblanco is a grapefruit x pomelo cross. (Most pomelos are 100% zygotic, but not all varieties)

One of the possible reasons, I think, that triploids are never used in citrus crosses is because very little is known about them (or at least that information isn't commonly known). Citrus breeders may not be inclined to try using triploids as the parent if they have no idea what's going to happen, or what the science is.

So, I suspect it might be possible that attempting to use Oroblanco as the female parent in hybridization might lead to a higher percentage of zygotic seeds than using a regular grapefruit variety.

If we look back at that study by Ollitroult, and assume that all the resulting triploid seeds were nucellar, then perhaps the other 50% (roughly) of [diploid] seeds that will form will be zygotic hybrids. (In other words, the percentage of hybrid seed obtainable from Oroblanco might be 50%, whereas for a regular grapefruit it might only be 10%. It can be really difficult/impractical trying to breed citrus varieties when a very large percent of the seeds in the female fruit parent you're harvesting seeds from are nucellar)


zygotic = result from sexual recombination of chromosomes
nucellar = genetically identical to fruit parent, no recombination of genes took place, oftentimes because the resulting sexual gamete cells inside the seed wasn't strong enough to grow, so the nucellar tissue surrounding the gamete inside of the seed outcompeted and took over instead in its place

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Are Forgotten Crops the Future of Food?
« on: August 28, 2018, 12:27:28 AM »
Interesting. How can 2/3 of our food supply come from just 4 plants sources? Neglect at an extreme level, time people wake up to the diversity of nutritional options.
Just try going to the grocery store next time and not buying anything with wheat (flour), cow milk (dairy), or sugar (including high fructose corn syrup) in the ingredients.

And on top of that, how about eating a meat that's not beef, chicken, or pork?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: August 27, 2018, 02:47:12 PM »
very small Keraji seedling, in ground

it's putting on some leaf growth.

small Yuzu seedling, in ground

this one is in the Yashiro Japanese Garden, Olympia
only gets infrequent watering but seems to be doing quite well, perhaps because there's a pond nearby that raises the level of humidity, and the garden is enclosed on all sides creating a windbreak, and there's lots of nearby shade from plants & trees which helps keep ambient temperatures a little lower than they otherwise would be in the blazing hot summer.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: August 27, 2018, 12:34:24 PM »
Some more posts recovered from

Ben Zumeta
(March 2018 ?)

My best friend from childhood's parents have a lemon tree in their yard in NE Seattle. It's at least 15yrs old and seems quite productive and healthy. He is a lifelong orchardist and vintner though and may have used old farmer magic. terms of the happy lemon in Seattle, beyond good ol farmer magic I would attribute its success to being about 2/3 of the way up a SE facing hill with a house above it to the NW. The bottom of the hill has a grocery store parking lot and large arterial covered in black top, and this undoubtedly radiates heat. It also probably likes the boner view of Mt. Rainier.

Marco Downs

I heard recently that Dave Boehnlein got a Yuzu harvest from a tree he planted in a parking strip in Seattle, no special earth/stone works, but lots of feeding and watering. I haven't seen many posts from him on this forum lately but I know he's pretty approchable. From what I've seen, yuzu and other (semi)hardy citrus can grow leaves just fine, which can be wonderful for cooking, but getting the fruit to ripen can be tricky.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: August 22, 2018, 01:14:13 PM »
I see 2 main issues in practical work. In the south it would be easier to produce large amount of seedlings but you have to wait for the chance of frost tests. That means you keep more seedlings as you need. (fortunately not my position  ::) )
In the north (like me) it is much more difficult to produce enough seedlings for frost tests. Due to limited space in greenhouse etc. Most seedlings grow very slowly in their 1st season here in our climate.
That's why it is probably more pragmatic to have two different people living in different locations collaborate. One would be in a position to grow out the plants, the other would be in a better position to test them.
This just involves some coordination between different breeders, and exchange of seeds/scions.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Soon To Be Released By The USDA
« on: August 21, 2018, 01:57:24 AM »
I do not know anything of FF-6-15-150
USDA 6-15-150 is a hybrid of Lee Mandarin and Orlando Tangelo.
That makes it a (Clementine x (Dancy x Duncan Grapefruit)) x (Dancy x Duncan Grapefruit) cross.
Fruits are the size of a medium mandarin, but with an orange-like exterior texture
Flavor is described as flavorful, lovely subtle flavor, tangy undertones, very juicy, difficult to section, seedy
was said to be the most cold tolerant mandarin to come out of the USDA citrus breeding program in Florida, on par with Satsuma mandarins

poncirus hybrid US119 that is in its pedigree is not more hardy than navel oranges.
supposedly hardy to 10F, young trees injured in low 20s

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Soon To Be Released By The USDA
« on: August 20, 2018, 04:59:21 AM »
1/16 of poncirus pedigree and not bred for hardiness
That may be true, but if you look at several of the selections this was bred from, they are actually fairly cold hardy.
FF-6-15-150 for example has as much cold hardiness as Satsuma mandarin.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Soon To Be Released By The USDA
« on: August 20, 2018, 12:10:06 AM »

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: August 19, 2018, 04:47:54 PM »
Yes, leaf smell is interesting. Ichang papeda doesn't have the same leaf smell as Yuzu. Ichang papeda leaves smell very mild and slightly lemony, Yuzu leaves smell more intense and spicy. The difference is obvious, despite the fact Yuzu is believed to have descended from Ichang papeda.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: August 17, 2018, 11:10:21 PM »
Last year I obtained around  400 hybrid seedlings of 5star citrumelo crossed to Morton citrange and Batumi citrumelo. After selection for the absence of poncirus taste of leaves. I have around 50 plants of each cross growing in the ground.
Ilya, be aware that if citrumelo was the fruit parent, likely 70-90 percent of the seeds are nucellar. You may not necessarily be able to tell which ones are nucellar. If citrange was the fruit parent, the percent will be even higher (probably above 98-99 percent).

Unfortunately, that means a lot of the seeds you have may not be second generation hybrids. That means you'll have to wait to find out, if it shows more cold hardiness or better fruit quality than either of the parents (or even if the fruit just looks different).

What perhaps should have been done was to breed a monofoliate hybrid with trifoliate leaf citrumelo, and then identify the seedlings from the citrumelo which are monofoliate (since they must be hybrids).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: August 17, 2018, 11:42:40 AM »
I'm thinking if you try second generation hybrids (F2) you might start seeing some interesting traits of much better edibility and higher cold tolerance appear.
For example citrange x citrange, or citrandarin x citrumelo.

This is because some of the genes for cold hardiness could be recessive, so there would have to be a trifoliate ancestor from both parental lines for these genes to be expressed. In other cases there may be a gene in the normal citrus parent which is dominant and detrimental to cold hardiness, so if using a pure normal citrus in even one parent side, it would be impossible for the immediate offspring to not have the dominant gene.

Doing some very basic math, if there were two of these genes (either beneficial recessive, or detrimental dominant, or just a combination of recessive genes, one for edibility and one for cold hardiness, for example) the probability that both would get expressed in the offspring together (assuming this is only out of the zygotic seeds of course) would be 1/16.

Citrus Buy, Sell, & Trade / Re: Ugli and King mandarin tree
« on: August 17, 2018, 12:58:52 AM »
I have some ugli fruit seedlings I grew from a fruit I found at a supermarket I'd be happy to give away, but it probably wouldn't be worth all the trouble I'd have to go through since you're in Europe, getting a plant certificate, and whether it would even survive the delay through customs. The taste is kind of like a watery kind of bland navel orange, with just a little bit of grapefruit.

Anyway, the ugli fruit I tried didn't really taste all that good, although there is something kind of unique and spicy about the fragrance in the peel. The flavor is like a kind of watery bland navel orange with maybe just a little bit of grapefruit. It is very juicy though.

You're not really missing anything, and anyway I read ugli fruit doesn't deal well with the slightest bit of cold, so it may not be the most appropriate choice where you are.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Help me fix my mandarin
« on: August 16, 2018, 10:35:07 PM »
It's probably still young, the root system hasn't had a chance to get fully established yet.

Try to keep the soil moist, but allow a time every 5 days or so where the soil is allowed to dry out. Not completely dry, but not too moist.

It's possible you might have stressed the roots with too much fertilizer or too much water, which in any case can be a difficult thing because the plant needs a lot of water when the temperatures are very hot and it's in the sun (and you live in a desert with drier air so that doesn't help).

Another little fact you may not know, mandarins are (in general) not as tolerant to heat and blazing sun as oranges and grapefruits are. That may be a small factor as well. And it's probably not a huge difference.

With the heat wave you've been having, I wouldn't be surprised the leaves don't look the best.
If it's still very hot (commonly above 87 degrees) and you really wanted to go to extreme lengths you could put a shade cloth covering over it for the next month, reducing evaporation loss and hopefully encouraging new leaflets to grow. But I think the trouble of doing that would probably not be justified at this point.

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Orchard Crime Wave in New Zealand
« on: August 15, 2018, 01:48:18 PM »
Country has taken in a fair amount of immigration, poverty rates are around 50% higher than they were 5 or 6 years ago.

New Zealand is an exporter of produce to Australia, which proved that you don't need cheap immigrant labor to pick fruits for commercial sale, but now a lot of teens and young adults that used to be hired in the fields are being pushed out of the job by harder working adults from other countries, so it's beginning to lead to a wave of juvenile delinquents.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Clamondin
« on: August 14, 2018, 11:27:05 PM »
Look at the difference between the leaves of these two mandarinquats grown from seed, one looks like mandarin leaves, the other has narrower leaf shape that looks like kumquat. Both seeds came from the same batch of fruit.

It will be interesting to see what the fruits look like.
(kumquat/mandarinquat tend to start fruiting young, so shouldn't be too long of a wait)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Ichanglemons
« on: August 14, 2018, 10:30:46 PM »
Might be interesting to try crossing Ichang lemon with citrumelo.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: August 14, 2018, 10:28:11 PM »
Sometimes what is regarded as common knowledge can be wrong though. Sometimes a specific experiment to answer that question has never been carried out, or only applies to specific situations (certain varieties, a certain climate zone).

There is no such thing as wild Changsha.
Unless I am misremembering, there are multiple varieties of wild Changsha in a certain region of China. I saw it in a very old publication (before 1920) in Google books, and it had a few black & white pictures. I believe the spelling was also different, and the book might have had something to do with botanical observations from missionaries. I'm not able to find it now.
If it wasn't changsha it had to have been some other cold hardy orange citrus fruit. But I specifically remember it mentioned some of the varieties having more drought tolerance or deeper roots, better adaption to clay soil or flooding, if located near river plains.

The differences didn't relate to fruits but adaptations to growing in different environments in that area. It was a drier area in the North, without much tree cover.

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