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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 12, 2019, 12:25:04 AM »
One of the (few) advantages of trying to grow in the PNW is that the temperatures remain really cool (much too cold for citrus to grow) for nearly half the year, so that means there's no danger of leaving dormancy before the danger of frost has passed.
Although we did have some freak unusual weather in the 2017-2018 Winter, with a highly unusual snow in early November and then the temperature never dropping below freezing the entire month of December, then afterwards there was actually a really warm period in early March. (This is far from typical though)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Using up those Citrangequats!!!
« on: January 10, 2019, 05:01:26 PM »
eyeckr sent me some fruits.

Thomasville Citrangquat was like a slightly more sour version of calamondin. It had good flavor. (I could even say that I could enjoy eating it) The peel was borderline tolerably edible but a little too much like orange peel to really eat it. I found one seed inside.
Fruit size was nice, bigger than your typical calamondin.

On the other hand, Glen Citrangedin had a really off flavor and aroma, smelling reminiscent of baby wipes, and because of that was inedible (to me). fruits were also tiny

I tasted them side by, and am going to have to say that Thomasville is clearly superior in every way to Glen.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: January 09, 2019, 03:20:33 PM »
N1tri seedling
(C. ichangensis x trifoliate)

I have a Saint Dominic's Sour Orange tree grown from seed planted in 2005. It is now 9-feet tall and has fruited for the last 2 years.
In Colorado? Protected during the Winter, or outside?

Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Best Garcinia root stock for California
« on: January 04, 2019, 01:41:55 AM »
Fukugi (Garcinina subelliptica) is commonly grown as an ornamental and windbreak in Okinawa. According to the following article, the grafting success rate for mangosteen onto Fukugi was 11%, while mangosteen onto mangosteen rootstock was 68%. They say that Fukugi is not recommended as mangosteen rootstock because its grafted seedlings grew slower than seedlings with mangosteen rootstock.

Fukugi would probably grow very well in Southern and Central coastal California. It has yellow fruits that are not very good for eating but fruit bats in Okinawa are known to like eating them.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Sudachi cold hardiness
« on: January 03, 2019, 02:01:32 PM »
  Interesting, I guess citrangequat is not a stable line and might not grow true from seeds. The F2 and beyond offsprings could be more cold or less cold tolerant.
That could be a good thing if you're trying to hybridize it, using it as the female fruit parent to get a new variety.

If I graft meiwa kumquat on flying dragon, how much the hardiness it would increase? If I plant it on the southside of my house to avoid cld wind, will it survive without protection in Atlanta?
Probably not much. Kumquat is already prone to enter into protective dormancy by itself, which is the whole point of FD rootstock.

Meiwa on FD would likely survive in Georgia in zone 8a, but I would be very surprised if it managed to survive in zone 7b.
If you did want to try it, I would definitely try planted up against a wall in a warm spot protected from wind, and maybe covered with a burlap sack and large plastic bag as well for some small degree of insulation from wind.

One woman tried to grow a small kumquat tree with minimal protection in zone 7b Atlanta but it did not survive. It was on rough lemon rootstock though.

Not very likely, at least not from a direct cross.

However you might take a look at this:
Citrofortunella x Tricimequat

Up for bid are seeds of the Tricimequat.  This is a beautiful small cold hardy Citrus tree, that gets fragrant white flowers, and delicious sweet Kumquat like fruit (and Kumquat is in the parentage of this unique hybrid), and like all Kumquats, you eat the peel and all with these.  This unusual cross is a hybrid of the Procimequat (another Kumquat hybrid) crossed with Trifoliate Orange for additional hardiness, and amazingly there is no bad taste from the trifoliate.  I enjoy eating these just as much as my Meiwa Kumquats, but this tree is much more cold tolerant  It is a rounded upright grower, and this is evergreen.  They are hardy to at least USDA zone 7b, and quite possibly 7a.  These plants would make excellent additions to your rare plant collection, or just make a unique statement in your yard.

You are bidding on 5 seeds of Citrofortunella x Tricimequat.  greg17086
Apparently it's a (Hong Kong kumquat x (kumquat x lime)) x trifoliate hybrid.

Although the sale has now ended, I was able to goad the owner of One Green World into getting and trying to germinate them.

Maybe if this was further crossed with Ichangquat we might get something truly edible.

Oh, by the way, I recently got the opportunity to taste Meiwa and agree it's the tastiest kumquat I've gotten to taste so far.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Sudachi cold hardiness
« on: January 02, 2019, 04:28:01 PM »
This was posted by one of our members in this forum:
jim VH
Vancouver,Wa. zone 8b
March 22, 2018

Yes, My Sudachi and Yuzu easily survived 8F (-13.3C) in January 2017 in Vancouver Wa., just across the Columbia river from Portland Or., with only minor small twig damage and about 20% defoliation on each.  The Sudachi appeared to have a higher percentage of small twig damage than the Yuzu.  On the other hand, the Yuzu is a much larger tree, and size does matter.

Genetic studies have suggested that Sudachi originated form a cross between an unidentified parent and Yuzu. That unidentified parent probably was a cross between Kishu and a Koji-type citrus which had Tachibana in its ancestry. (Kunenbo is a Koji-type citrus, to give you some idea of what we are talking about here, indeed this "Koji-type" citrus may have been a Kunenbo, but not the same Kunenbo variety that Satsuma, Bloomsweet, and Keraji (as well as Kabosu also) originated from. I think the name "Kunenbo" in general was used to refer to a certain type of larger fruit aromatic tangor-like type of mandarins, which may have all appeared similar to each other but in some cases had heterogenous origins)

I'm guessing Sudachi is nearly as, or possibly equal to, hardy as Yuzu and can survive down to zone 8.
It might not really thrive in the colder parts of zone 8, unless planted up against a house or in a large city near a large body of water.

rare Natsumikan seeds, most likely will not be available again (only available next couple of days)
cold hardiness level between Bloomsweet and Satsuma (supposedly one Natsumikan tree has survived up against a wall outside in London)
flavor somewhere in between an orange, grapefruit, and sour orange, flavor slightly watery but enjoyable, though can be kind of acidic,
not too many seeds and big juicy fruits, also fruits seem to have remarkable ability to survive on tree down to 18F

$1 for one seed, $1.50 for 2 (limit 2)
freshly harvested from fruit

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: January 01, 2019, 02:43:34 PM »
And I do not believe that rooted cutting is weaker than seedling.
I'm not inclined to believe that either. (although who really knows?)
My purpose to starting this thread was not to say that there is a difference between grown from seed and rooted cuttings,
I was simply speculating on the effects of being grafted onto different rootstock. That's the discussion I was trying to focus on.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: December 30, 2018, 10:40:53 PM »
I'm not very confident even the rare seedling will show much more cold hardiness than its parents.

(Unless that seedling originated from a heterogenous hybrid involving cold hardy hardy cultivars)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: December 30, 2018, 07:43:52 PM »
I found this post archived on the old Citrus Growers forum:
Location: Pensacola, Florida zone 9
9 March, 2010

I have been surprised at the cold tolerance of my sister's Owari satsumas--on their own roots. They survived mid teens with no protection and little damage--for several nights. There are not a lot of citrus that taste better either.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: December 30, 2018, 07:20:47 PM »
A post I found archived on the old Citrus Growers Forum:
Las Palmas Norte
Location: Lantzville, Vancouver Island
23 January, 2014

Been ages since I was on this forum last. Just a quick update on a few in-ground citrus I have in zone 8b Vancouver Island.
Last big freeze was Dec 6 where temps dive bombed to 20F / -6.7C. Both Yuzu and Changsha where absolutely fine. 10 Tangerine had it's leaves flag, only to pick up again after that bad night.
Hope everyones citrus is doing great. Belated Happy New Year.
Las Palmas Norte
27 February, 2014

10 Tangerine picked up nicely after the leaf flag back then and has been fine since. Recent wet snow has not fazed any of these either. Mother nature is expected to deliver another blow this weekend with temps down into the low 20's / -5C on Saturday (Mar.1).
(reference to Ten Degree Tangerine, a yuzu x clementine hybrid)

Location: North Vancouver, BC, Canada
6 June, 2010

Skeeter, Your sisters satsuma - was it a seedling or a cutting? I have heard satsumas are difficult to root (cuttings). I have tried a few different methods - all without success. We didn't get much frost this winter and NO snow ! - only a few frosty nights in December. My (in ground) satsuma, Changsha and for the first time my Juanita are in bloom now - meyer lemons have finished blooming Smile


Gregn, citrus enthusiast. North Vancouver Canada. USDA zone 8. I grow In-ground citrus, Palms and bananas. Also have container citrus

One DNA marker study found that Shikuwasa (C. depressa) and Tachibana clustered closely together and seemed to be related.
(Phylogenetic Relationships among Selected Citrus Germplasm among Selected Citrus Germplasm Accessions Revealed by Inter-simple Sequence Repeat (ISSR) Markers, Dequiu Fang, UC Riverside, 1998 )

Although it's not a direct relation, so it's not as if Tachibana is the actual parent of Shikuwasa.
(Hybrid Origins of Citrus Varieties Inferred from DNA Marker Analysis of Nuclear and Organelle Genomes, Tokurou Shimizu, 2016 )

Both of these varieties are indigenous to Taiwan, so they may have shared some common ancestor in the past or evolutionary diverged from the same line.
The latter study also indicated that Shikuwasa appeared to have either C. medica and/or and C. ichangensis (analysis wasn't very precise on this point) ancestry going back in its line, in addition to the relationship with Tachibana.

So some of these distant origins remain somewhat of a murky mystery.

(Nanshodaidai doesn't appear to show any relation to either of them in these studies, rather appears to have mandarin and pomelo ancestry, but that may not necessarily preclude the possibility of something else in its ancestry going distantly back)

SoCal2warm, interesting about your article of citrus grown on the Ryukyu Islands.  I believe your article is correct, however the interesting thing to me is that I lived on the Ryukyu Islands for two years (Okinawa) and I never seen a citrus tree.
They may have originated there several hundred years ago, but I think today they are nearly extinct in the wild and almost no one grows them, since people in modern times are less dependent on self-sufficiency and less in touch with agriculture and growing things. (Also I think citrus imports from foreign countries have displaced the use of native varieties)
Okinawa is not a big island, and I'm sure there has probably also been a lot of deforestation compared to hundreds of years ago.
It is kind of paradoxical that in the origin regions of some of these citrus cultivars very few of the people now living there even know what they are.
All across Asia the old culture, and many of the unique agricultural cultivars that went along with that traditional culture, have slowly died off. There are attempts being made to preserve them.

drew up ancestry diagrams

Cold Hardy Citrus / parentage of Sudachi
« on: December 27, 2018, 06:47:08 PM »
Sudachi is a slightly more regional citrus variety, used in Japan (more commonly used in Tokushima Prefecture) as a lemon similar to Yuzu except usually harvested while still green.

The Wikipedia entry for Sudachi states "Recent genetic analysis has confirmed its status as a hybrid, with one parent being the yuzu, and the other an unidentified relative of two native-Japanese cultivars, the koji and tachibana orange".

The entry under Yukou makes it a little more clear: "Genetic analysis has shown it to be a cross between the kishumikan and koji, a part-tachibana orange hybrid native to Japan.

Kishumikan is of course the ordinary kishu mandarin (sold in many nurseries, I have one, one my favorites, very small fruit size but effortless to peel).

Now, as for the koji, I had to look that up.

Useful Plants of Japan Described and Illustrated, by Dai Nihon Nokai, page 64, has an entry under Citrus nobilis, of which Koji-mikan and Koji are listed as synonyms.

Citrus nobilis is a somewhat broad category that primarily includes the citrus kunenbo, in fact the two are probably almost synonymous. (kunenbo isn't quite a single cultivar either but is actually a group, although there's a main cultivar of kunenbo)

Sudachi descends from the same koji-type parent that Yukou does. (Hybrid Origins of Citrus Varieties Inferred from DNA Marker Analysis of Nuclear and Organelle Genomes, Tokurou Shimizu, 2016 )

So, to put everything in perspective, Sudachi originated as a cross between Yuzu and a particular type of kunenbo that derived from tachibana (that is happens to have some tachibana in its ancestry).

This actually would make the parentage of Sudachi very similar to Satsuma mandarin (although the two fruits are very different). Satsuma derives from kishu x kunenbo. Sudachi derives from kishu x a type of kunenbo with some tachibana in it.

(kunenbo is a mandarin with some pomelo in its ancestry, maybe comparable to the family of citrus known as a tangor, and likely all existent varieties of kunenbo are pretty closely directly related, even if some have admixture ancestry from other citrus groups)

If you look at pictures of the Yukou, it looks pretty yellow, like something with a lot of pomelo ancestry or almost some sort of lemon. It wouldn't be very fitting to describe it as a mandarin.

(More information on that here, if you were really interested: )

So how simply to describe the origin of Sudachi?

I might say that Sudachi is a cross between Yuzu and another semi-sour citrus related to Satsuma mandarin but which also has Tachibana Orange going back in its ancestry.

(It's worthwhile to put Tachibana in the description because Tachibana likely is conferring some genes for cold hardiness. Genetically, Tachibana is very closely related to mandarin, some taxonomists would almost consider it a subspecies under mandarin, but is a little cold hardier, enters into Winter dormancy more easily, and is a little cold hardier than ordinary mandarin. Tachibana is also a bit more sour than the ordinary sweet varieties of mandarins people are familiar with)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: December 27, 2018, 05:46:28 PM »
I'm starting to wonder if all the monozygotic seeds are really zygotic.  Hadyvermont PMed me saying he doubted if all monozygotic seeds are zygotic.  I argued against him, though I was also starting to think the same.
It probably depends on the variety, I am guessing.
I'm pretty sure monoembryotic seeds can be nucellar.

It's a good way to help separate them out, but may not completely separate out the zygotic from nucellar.

Obviously if you have 100 seedlings and can't grow them all out, and you are only looking to keep the zygotic ones, the polyembryonic ones should be discarded. That would at least double or triple the chance that the remaining seeds will be zygotic.

It's all about probabilities and optimizing them.

Example: maybe for one variety, just hypothetically, 70 percent of the monoembryotic seeds will be zygotic, while 10 percent of the polyembryonic seeds will contain a zygotic seedling sprout. It might look something like that.

Regardless of the variety, I think it's still always a good way to help discriminate if you have many more seeds than you want to grow.

I usually write on the labels for my seedlings whether they originated from a polyembryonic seed. That information could help me later.

limequat seeds available for free

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Tetraploid Poncirus drought and cold resistance
« on: December 24, 2018, 02:04:05 PM »
Citrus tetraploids typically display a little bit more cold tolerance and have slightly larger leaf and flower size.
However, they do not set quite as much fruit as normal diploids.

Tetraploid versions of diploid species are very common in the plant world, and with garden cultivars.
In fact, this is believed to be one of the possible routes of speciation, when a plant spontaneously doubles its number of chromosomes and then that leads to a reproductive barrier with the rest of the species gene pool (because the mixed offspring between the two groups, triploids, typically have marked decrease in fertility). There's even one example of this among citrus, the Hong Kong kumquat.

Fresh yuzu seeds available again
2 for $3
please inquire within next couple of days

(they all have >92% germination rate if germinated properly)

is it going to make it?
It doesn't look like it. The bark is splitting open in several areas and looks kind of shriveled.

Passe Crassane tree

Karp's Sweet (with lychee tree in background)

Temperate Fruit Discussion / Re: can pluots pollinate other pluots?
« on: December 22, 2018, 07:53:46 PM »
I believe it is possible for all stonefruit to pollinate other species of stonefruit for the purposes of fruit set.

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