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Messages - SoCal2warm

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Changshou Kumquat
« on: April 29, 2020, 09:44:33 PM »
I have a seed grown Fukushu/changshou planted outside in ground.  I have not gotten any fruits yet.  It has just completed its 4th year outside from 3-8-16.  I live in zone 6 Cincinnati Oh on the teays river bank.  I do not have any Idea how cold it has gotten for it but it is doing very well
Do you put protection over it during the winter?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: NYC Citrus
« on: April 29, 2020, 05:01:14 PM »
I am surprised how large are its flowers
I find it surprising how those flowers are shaped like Poncirus trifoliata flowers, yet they are the big size of pomelo flowers.
It looks like even bigger because of the elongated shape of the petals.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: April 29, 2020, 04:49:35 PM »
Tai-tri, US 852, Sudachi, one of the Yuzu seedlings, both the Bloomsweet in a container and the Bloomsweet in the ground, are all just beginning to put out some new leaflet grow.
And a surprise, a pomelo seedling that was left outside in a container on the patio over the winter is also beginning to show a little bit of new leaflet growth, although the old leaves do not look so well, very pale and yellow. I believe the seed had come from a Reinking pomelo (though I can't be absolutely completely certain that that was the specific pomelo variety).

Looking closely, I'm barely seeing some tiny new leaflet growth just beginning to start on the Changsha, but that's planted in warm south-facing spot, with a brick wall behind it.
The leaves on the Changsha have begun greening up more, becoming less yellowish in hue.

The Ichang papedas (smaller in size, one on its own roots, one grafted) and the Ichangquat seedling (own root) still do not look any different from how they looked at the start of March, though the stems still look a relatively healthy green color.

April 29, 2020 , climate zone 8a, Pacific Northwest

update May 1, The Ichang papeda that is grafted, the one that did not look so well, is now just sending out growth of many small leaflets. The other smaller Ichang papeda on its own roots has been slowly greening up and looks healthy enough like it could begin sending out new leaflet growth at any time.

If you look at the before and after pictures, even on the Bloomsweet, you can see how the leaves look a noticeably greener hue now than they did at the end of winter, indicating the plants kept their leaves through the winter, the leaves are still alive, and have at least some ability to recover. (It's not a huge color change, but is noticeable) It's the same on my cold hardy gardenias, although the extent of the color change on the citrus is a little less. At least for the gardenias, I read that's an indicator that the roots may not be able to draw up as much iron due to the low temperatures. I don't know whether that same thing could be true of the citrus.

For reference comparison, I have a Satsuma seedling growing in a container right next to various other hardy citrus seedlings, left outside over the winter on the porch, and the leaves on the Satsuma are looking really borderline about whether they will be able to stay on the plant without falling off or recover; they will probably drop.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: NYC Citrus
« on: April 27, 2020, 02:57:27 PM »
The candidates that would have the best chance of doing well are, in this order:
US 852 and Tai-tri
possibly some sort of kumquat-trifoliate hybrid (but not citrangequat)

Ichang papeda would be pretty borderline where you are. At the very least, I expect it would need a very optimal warm spot outside, protected from the winds, possibly up against a building. I am not sure if it could survive or do well there.

There's also a rare hybrid N1tri out there (supposedly a hybrid between trifoliate and ichang papeda, with fruit quality much closer to ichang papeda).
Some think it could actually be a hybrid between ichang papeda and citrumelo, because the fruit quality is unexpectedly good for such a direct hybrid. However, its level of hardiness is debatable, it might not be much hardier than ichang papeda.

Tai-tri (taiwanica x trifoliate) does not have very good fruit quality and is scarcely better than trifoliate (though the fruits are little bit bigger, and a tiny bit less seedy).

I cannot confirm this, but I've heard Taiwanica lemon is a real survivor as well. Its fruit quality is not good, but it seems to recover well from cold damage. There's a possibility that it might be able to survive if planted in the right spot where you are. (Though it may not be able to survive the every once in a decade cold winter) It might need at least some light covering protection and some bottles of water arranged at its base, to resist freezing.

I doubt Thomasville citrangequat would do well where you are. I've heard a report from zone 7b (although it might have been on the border of 8a/7b) South Carolina that a citrangequat did not do so well and had never fruited. (It did worse than a Taiwanica lemon that was planted next to it) Also a Thomasville citrangequat tree in Vancouver, WA, zone 8a suffered severe bark damage at the base one winter, and its leaves turn much more yellow over the winter than the leaves of a Yuzu that is planted right next to it.

I believe Stan grafts all his citrus onto Flying Dragon. I don't know if this helps, but I am pretty far north in the PNW, zone 8a, and I have two Ichang papedas, pretty small in size, growing on their own roots not grafted, and by the coloration of the leaves I can tell that they have not done really good this winter, not compared to other varieties that are less hardy that are grafted onto rootstock. I don't know if that is any indication.
From what I've seen here, I get the feeling they would not survive somewhere north like New York in zone 7b. But of course I don't know.
I have a Yuzu seedling growing on its own roots that has good looking green leaves this winter, but it was killed back to the ground last winter. Why the leaves on the Yuzu look much greener and healthier than the Ichang papeda this year, I don't know. (And this is me making the assumption that resistance to leaf turning yellow in coloration is an indication of level of hardiness, which may also not be completely right)

In climate zone 7b, and as far north as you are, you are most likely not going to be able to grow the "good" tasting hardy citrus.
It will mostly be for experimentation purposes and novelty, as well as being ornamental. Don't expect anything like an orange you buy at the supermarket.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: April 26, 2020, 10:18:17 PM »
Bloomsweet beginning to put out some new leaflet growth

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Khasi Papeda
« on: April 22, 2020, 03:38:45 PM »
The area where Khasi papeda is indigenous to is in the equivalent of USDA climate zone 9b.

Between the three most popular citrus varieties, Meyer, Eureka, and Lisbon, Lisbon definitely is my favorite in terms of flavor and juice. Lisbon is the most common standard variety you will find sold in a supermarket.
However, everyone has their own personal favorites. Many prefer Meyer because it is a bit sweeter and has milder flavor with less sourness. Eureka is a slightly bigger fruit size and has a little rougher texture on the peel.

Ponderosa lemons can get huge sized fruits, are very ornamental, and the trees are also prolific and very fruitful, but it is not known for having the best flavor.

Meyer and Ponderosa might be considered by some to not really be "true lemons" in the sense that the others are. Meyer is believed to be a citron x mandarin hybrid, while Ponderosa is believed to be a citron x pomelo hybrid. Regular lemons originated in Italy around the 1500s and were hybrids between citron and sour orange.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Khasi Papeda
« on: April 21, 2020, 06:10:25 PM »
I believe Fruit Trees and More may carry Khasi papeda, if any of you are in Canada.
The nursery is owned by Bob Duncan and is in North Saanich, British Columbia.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Khasi Papeda
« on: April 21, 2020, 05:56:07 PM »

" C. latipes - The fruit is bitter sour in taste and is not commonly consumed raw, but in Khasi villages of Laitjem and Sadew, fruits are eaten between meals as snacks, usually blended with finely cut tender leaves of mustard or radish, with excess of chillies and sugar and salt for taste. "

Utilization of wild Citrus by Khasi and Garo tribes of Meghalaya, Anamika Upadhaya, Shailendra Singh Chaturvedi, Brahm Kumar Tiwari
Indian Journal of Traditional Knowledge, Vol 15 (1), January 2016

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: New ichang papeda
« on: April 17, 2020, 10:51:15 PM »
Note that Ichang papeda is different than Ichang lemon.
Yes, it can sometimes get a little confusing. Sometimes Ichang papeda used to, and still is, referred to as a "lemon", or "Ichang lemon", but Ichang papeda is the one with very distinct symmetrical shaped leaves, whereas Ichang lemon has much more ordinary leaves that look like the leaves on a pomelo or grapefruit.
(Due to the nature of the Chinese language, they did not have a very discriminating method to refer to these different citrus types. In China, Ichang papeda was called "Yichang orange", and Ichang lemon was referred to as "fragrant ball", which is also the same name they use for citron)

The leaves of Ichang papeda look very similar to the leaves of Kaffir lime. However, the leaves on very small Kaffir lime seedlings look pretty ordinary and do not really start taking on the characteristic symmetrical shape until the plant gets a little bigger.

I've tasted the leaves of Ichang papeda and they taste very much like the leaves of citron (specifically citron, not lemon leaves) except with a much lower level of lemony aroma, and also with a little bit of a strange sort of feeling of almost pungent "deepness" to the smell. The leaves are very close to, but not quite as tender as citron or Kaffir lime leaves (so I would say worse "eating quality", if anyone was curious).
I might be overemphasizing details that are not important here, but here it is, in case anyone wanted to know.

Also to mention, both Ichang papeda and Changsha mandarin root very easily from cuttings, much easier than other citrus.

Here's a picture of Jim's Kabosu just taken yesterday.

It's put on some growth since I last saw it. (Which I find somewhat surprising since that was from the end of September to April)
Jim says it looks like it has the same level of hardiness as Yuzu and Sudachi. He says he was able to try one fruit from the tree. It got very big and orange, and developed a sweet taste.

Jim's Ichang Lemon (not Ichang papeda, to avoid confusion) tree is also doing surprisingly well, very big (over 6 feet), although Jim says it has never flowered or fruited.
(I suggested to him to give it a few more years, as some varieties can be much less precocious than others, and that it might fruit when it gets a little bit bigger or older)

Jim's Early St. Ann Satsuma (big tree) survived through the winter just fine, going unprotected for the first time, and Jim reckons it would have likely produced fruit this year. But we'll never know because Jim tore the tree out in early Spring. He got tired of protecting it, and says this winter was a relatively mild one for him, and it had become overgrown and was taking up too much space in the spot where it was. The last I saw of it, the tree was just a little over 4 feet wide, maybe 5 feet high, looked pretty old.

Jim also told me his huge Yuzu tree bush produced 50 pounds of fruit one year (either this winter, or the year before), and some guy who had a local brewery came and collected them because he was going to make fresh Yuzu flavored beer.

The very outer layer of the big Yuzu bush has yellow leaves, especially on the South-facing side, but the leaves inside the bush all look very green and healthy. Apparently the outer layer of the bush acted to provide insulation. The South-side is facing the street and that is where it is most exposed to winds.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: New ichang papeda
« on: April 17, 2020, 02:00:07 PM »
an entry about Ichang papeda I was able to find from an old source:

some excerpts:

" This species is cultivated in the vicinity of Ichang, and it bears a very large lemonlike fruit that is of sufficiently good quality to cause it to be shipped to markets several hundred miles distant.
In China this species occurs in an undoubted wild state in the hills of the Upper Yangtze Valley from Ichang west and southwest in Hupeh, Szechwan, and Kwichow, growing at altitudes of 1,500 to 6,000 feet. In Assam a closely related but slightly different form is found at an altitude of 5,000 to 6,000 feet in the Khasi Hills.

The species thus ranges over a region at least 1,500 miles long and some 500 miles wide.

This plant is reported in all parts of its range as growing in a truly wild state and is cultivated on a small scale around Ichang along the Yangtze River, where the fruit is called the "Ichang lemon" by foreigners.

The typical Citrus ichangensis as it occurs in southwestern China is a small tree or a large shrub, usually 5 to 15 feet high (1.5 to 5 meters), but sometimes reaching 20 feet. It also occurs wild in fruiting condition only 2 to 3 feet high on the cliffs of the Yangtze Gorges. "

The article also makes mention to both a wild and cultivated form with slightly better fruit quality.

" Mr. E. H. Wilson informs the writer that the form of this species cultivated in the Ichang region yields an excellent fruit known to foreign residents of the Yangtze Vallet as the "Ichang lemon." These fruits are shipped down the river to Hankow and west well into Szechwan, and are so much esteemed as to command good prices.

So far as is now known, Citrus ichangensis is native farther north than any other evergreen species of Citrus, only the deciduous Citrus trifoliata having a more northerly range. Besides having the northernmost range of any known evergreen species of Citrus it occurs at the highest altitudes reported for any wild species of the genus. In the Hsingshan District, in latitude 31° 10', Mr. Wilson collected this plant at an altitude of 4,200 feet, and Pére Cavalerie found it in central Kweichow at a height of 5,577 feet. "

Journal of Agricultural Research, Department of Agriculture, Volume 1, Washington D.C., October 10, 1913
Citrus ichangensis, A promising, hardy, new species from Southwestern China and Assam, article by Walter T. Swingle

(Note who wrote the article, this is the same man after whom the "Swingle citrumelo" was named)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Khasi Papeda
« on: April 15, 2020, 01:53:41 PM »
It is closely related to Ichang papeda, but it is not as hardy as Ichang papeda.

Here's an excerpt from an old article:
" This species [Ichang papeda] is cultivated in the vicinity of Ichang, and it bears a very large lemonlike fruit that is of sufficiently good quality to cause it to be shipped to markets several hundred miles distant.
In China this species occurs in an undoubted wild state in the hills of the Upper Yangtze Valley from Ichang west and southwest in Hupeh, Szechwan, and Kwichow, growing at altitudes of 1,500 to 6,000 feet. In Assam a closely related but slightly different form is found at an altitude of 5,000 to 6,000 feet in the Khasi Hills.
The species thus ranges over a region at least 1,500 miles long and some 500 miles wide. "

Journal of Agricultural Research, Department of Agriculture, Volume 1, Washington D.C., October 10, 1913
Citrus ichangensis, A promising, hardy, new species from Southwestern China and Assam, article by Walter T. Swingle

Apparently the natives in that area used the fruits as a form of insect repellent for their feet.
Most sources say the fruit is otherwise not used by the locals, but I do recall seeing one source that described a few culinary uses.
I would gather then that the fruits are/were probably not often used, but might have been used occasionally by some native tribes in some locations. Probably not great fruit quality.

In another study I saw, the fruits of Khasi papeda do not contain high levels of photosensitizing furanocoumarins like lime and lemon do, and the levels were lower than grapefruit.

That Khasi papeda would have a lime-like flavor is not surprising, because Khasi papeda is also related to (and its native growing range is not that far from) C. micrantha, which is basically the ancestor of limes (and has off-the-charts high levels of furanocoumarins, by the way).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: TaiTri vs 5* deciduousness and hardiness
« on: April 14, 2020, 12:15:29 AM »
I have three TaiTri seedlings outside in containers, and none of the seedlings lost their leaves this winter. In fact, the coloration of the leaves still look fairly healthy.
This is in zone 8, the Pacific Northwest.

I also have a Dustan citrumelo planted outside which did not lose its leaves this year, and still looks quite good.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: April 06, 2020, 05:27:16 PM »
tiny Keraji seedling



I think today is like the first day of Spring, it's finally warming up.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: April 06, 2020, 02:15:31 PM »
Changsha mandarin, survived the winter outside unprotected

Ichang papeda, on its own roots

small plant, maybe only 5 inches high

April 6, 2020

Of course I vent it when temps get above freezing and especially if gets into 50’s.
It's too bad you can't hook up some sort of automatic venting system connected to a temperature thermostat.
It must constantly occupy attention in your mind to have to worry about whether temperatures are going to go above 50 outside during the cold half of the year. That would be too much worry for me.

Kumquat is probably going to be hardier than other common citrus varieties, since it goes into a protective state of dormancy so easily (stays in dormancy).
I'm not sure if this really demonstrates "hardier grown from seed", since I would imagine the span (differential) between kumquat grown on poncirus compared to kumquat on its own roots, and some other hardy citrus grown on poncirus versus on its own roots, would not be as great.

(What I mean is the whole point of grafting a hardy citrus on poncirus is to keep it in dormancy, a trait kumquat already has, to some extent)

Generally kumquat can survive down to zone 8b, so that's already within zone 8 territory.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Frost Protection
« on: March 20, 2020, 03:50:37 PM »
Well, I haven't had good luck with my frost protection. It seems that enclosing the frame with transparent vinyl plastic leads to a greenhouse effect during sunny days, which can lead to the plant starting to come out of dormancy, and then the cold night comes and the temperature rapidly swings in the other direction. The daytime difference between inside and outside can be great, whereas the nighttime differences are only a few degrees. The hardy citrus does not handle these temperatures swings very well. Or at least that's what it seems like.

Probably would have been better to use an opaque white enclosure to avoid excessive heat build-up. Maybe even with a small vent on top to be able to leak out excessive heat.

Trees that are grown from seed (and thus are growing on their own roots) have to reach a bigger size before they begin fruiting.

That is one of the main reasons these trees are usually not grown from seed.

Grafting a tree onto rootstock limits growth, and thus diverts the tree's energy into fruit production, earlier on in the tree's lifespan.

If you try to grow a pomelo tree on its own roots, it could take a long time before it begins fruiting, and that tree could grow to be very big. In their natural state in the tropics, pomelo trees can grow to be 45 feet high.
My grandparents used to have a big orange tree that must have been over 15 feet high.

You will one day have fruit, but it might be many years.

If I had to guess, I would guess you might have to wait 5 to 8 years before that seed-grown pomelo tree, of the size already shown in that picture, begins producing fruit. Pomelo trees also take a bit longer than other varieties of citrus.

One last important point, the issue could be pollination. Unlike grapefruit, most pomelo varieties are self-incompatible, and there should be some other different variety around, if you want fruit. (This can even be accomplished by grafting in a different variety into the same tree, either a different pomelo variety or other citrus)
If you're seeing flowers, but no fruit, the issue could be pollination.

However, I think I can see some other citrus tree in the background, in that picture, so maybe that is not the issue.

  Some souce claimed that Marumi Kumquat can withstand 10F and start to lose leaves at 0F without injury. Is it a myth?
I highly doubt it. Yuzu is supposed to be hardy down to 10 F, and I am pretty certain a kumquat is not going to be as hardy as Yuzu.
(And Yuzu can definitely suffer some damage even above 10 F, so that number should not be taken to mean the plant will be just fine and healthy)

I was able to find this in my notes:

Nippon Orangequat 14 F or 10-16 F

These notes were derived from a compilation of a lot of research and anecdotal reports I read through.
I don't know if that helps any. I don't have any specific listings in my notes for Marumi kumquat.

I believe Meiwa is very nearly as hardy as Marumi, but I am by no means a kumquat expert.

Kumquats can only survive down to zone 8a, and that's only in the South, and they do not do well in the colder part of zone 8a, close to the border of zone 7.
I read of an experiment done close to Atlanta (zone 7b) where someone planted a kumquat, protecting it with a little frame covered by frost cloth, to see if it could survive. The winter killed it.

Is it the hardiest kumquat? Probably. Unless you count Ichangquat (kumquat x Ichang papeda), but that is a pretty hard one to get a hold of, and in addition the skin is said to have some moderate bitterness (although of course nothing like poncirus).

My small Ichangquat seedling appears to have survived outside through a winter in zone 8a, Olympia, WA, although the leaves do not look as good as the Yuzu.
Judging by how it has behaved, I would imagine a kumquat would really struggle up here, but I am not in the South.

There's also Sunquat (kumquat x Satsuma mandarin) but that is not any hardier than Meiwa.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Mandarin/Lemon recommendations
« on: March 17, 2020, 12:12:11 AM »
SoCal2warm, do you find a flavor difference in the juice between Lisbon and Eureka or just appearance, or ?
Eureka is bigger and looks better, but in my personal opinion, Lisbon is a just a bit juicier and has a little bit better flavor.
But they're not that different, and it can sometimes be difficult to tell the two varieties of fruit apart.

Eureka also has thicker rind.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« on: March 14, 2020, 09:55:04 PM »
There was snow falling in Olympia too, yesterday and today (March 13, 14) but it did not stick to the ground.
No snow on the ground.
The lowest temperature only went down to 27.
So I guess Vancouver got colder than Olympia further north during this late season cold wave.

Jim, how is your Early St. Ann Satsuma doing? You said you were going to leave it unprotected this winter as an experiment.
How do the leaves look?
Do they look worse than the Yuzu?

Also to mention, water loss will be much higher from heating caused by light, or heating from a heat mat, than heat that is even and circulating within a plant enclosure.
If the plant is a warmer temperature than the surrounding air, water loss will occur. This is the same principle that freeze drying works through.
Cold air holds less water, so when that air passes over a warm surface, heat is transferred to the air, and along with that heat moisture is carried away because the warmer air can now hold more water vapor.
However, if the warm air is relatively saturated with humidity, and it is not cooler than the temperature of the plant, than it will not carry away much moisture or have a drying effect.

A potential disadvantage of excessive light is that it is effectively beaming heat energy directly onto the leaves. This can put drought stress on a plant.
This is a particular consideration because plants growing in containers have smaller root systems without as much access to water.

My theory on why plants are green is because maximum photosynthesis takes place early in the morning or late in the afternoon, or in overcast weather, when there are cooler temperatures to avoid water loss. The plant closes its pores more in the heat of the middle of the day. Cooler temperatures correlate to a higher percentage of red or blue light. Also the plant does not need higher conversion efficiency when there is more light, which correlates to higher ratio of green wavelengths in the middle of a sunny day. Early in the morning, the sun is at more of an angle, passes through more layer of atmosphere, so the spectrum is shifted to longer more red wavelengths.

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