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Messages - Walt

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1
Got to get one,  Or get someone to make the cross for me.

2
I really think an acidless Pt would be preferable to one with just the bad poncirus removed.  Poncirus hybrids I've eaten are much too sour.  Mixing juice of US 852, for example, with an acidless poncirus+  F2 hybrid might make a very nice juice.
That isn't my final goal, of course, but a step along the way.

3
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 12, 2019, 03:32:35 PM »
SoCal, I have several years to plan where to go from this point. I've started TaiTri and Citrumelo seedlings and will evaluate their hardiness in the meantime. Any potential pairing of parents should offer either increased hardiness, or edibility. Hardiness is becoming apparent in the F2 survivals, but  palatability is unproven. I don't plan on re-introducing tender Citrus from this point forward. Therefore improvements in flavor would need to come from the very hardiest non-poncirus sources as you suggest, or from genes within hybrid populations. After the plants grow additional foliage, I will be able to taste-test them for Poncirus off-tastes as Ilya does.

If I'm very fortunate a few of the plants might have edible fruit. In the past when I created Citrandarin hybrids, there was one edible (albeit sour) individual in the first generation. My understanding is that having mandarin parentage dramatically reduces the Poncirus off-flavors. Ruby blood orange as the Citrus component of these F2 citranges likely won't provide such a benefit.


Sorry.  This was the quote that I meant to have in my post above.

4
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: May 12, 2019, 03:28:53 PM »
If I'm very fortunate a few of the plants might have edible fruit.
Hybridizing very hardy citrus that is truly good eating quality is going to take a long time.
I would count yourself lucky if you are able to achieve a hybrid that can survive in your winters and doesn't have poncirus bitterness, even if it might not be good fruit quality.

Perhaps someone in the future could later take your achievement and use it to hybridize a better hybrid in the future.
Incremental progress. If you achieve a significant improvement, even if it might not be what you had hoped for, don't throw it away.


As always, we have similar goals but are using different methods.  So far you have guessed right more than I have.  I have learned much from your results and modified my plans for the better.  Many thanks.

That said, I will be bringing in new breeding stock of pure citrus. 

I'll use Flying Dragon X Seedless Kishu.  Flying Dragon as it is my oldest P. trifoliata that gives a good percentage of zygotic seeds.  Seedless Kishu for its dominant gene for seedless.

I want to use Flying Dragon X Blood oranges.  Blood oranges have been said ,elsewhere on this forum, to have no sourness.  While I want some sourness in my citrus  fruit, all my 1/2 and 1/4 Pt hybrid fruit are much too sour.  IF the "no sour" in blood oranges is due to a single gene, then F2 Flying Dragon x Blood might include no sour or less sour fruit.  I think that (Clem x tri) x Clem juice mixed with a no sour trifoliata hybrid juice might give a good drink.

Also, as I've said elsewhere, I'd like to remake all the citrus X P. trifoliata crosses using Laaz's precocious P. t and using P.t like Poncirus+.

If anyone has the trees to make any of these crosses, but no room to grow them out, make the crosses and I'll make room for the seedlings.  And I'll share budwood as soon as possible.

5
Citrus General Discussion / Re: Meyer lemon, why?
« on: May 12, 2019, 02:43:54 PM »
The local Dillons food store is selling Meyers lemons this year.  First I've had.  I like them.  I've never had any lemon tree ripened and picked at perfection.  So I really can't compare.

6
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: April 13, 2019, 07:46:36 PM »
As soon as your trees have leaves, you might taste them as Ilya does.  It would be great if even one lacks the Poncirus taste.

7
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: April 09, 2019, 03:02:37 AM »
Just this morning I was transplanting some of the seedlings from group pots to seperate pots.  The tallest are about 5" tall, 12 1/2 cm?  The smallest are less than 1 cm.  And in transplanting, I found that several big ones had very small ones coming from the same seed.  So I guess there will be more nucellar seedlings than I thought.  But still I think much less than 1/2 nucellar.  I think.

8
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: April 08, 2019, 10:24:18 AM »
My seedlings are still on the north side of the house, in the shade.  Actually, the south is somewhat diagonal to north, so the seedlings get some late afternoon sun. 
I watch the weather forecast carefully, and take them inside if it will get near freezing.  In the last 2 weeks they have spent 3 nights and one day in the house. 

9
Would spraying with urea help seedlings grow faster?

10
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: April 03, 2019, 11:40:25 AM »
This morning I spent much time thinking about Kumin's results from growng some 3000 F2 citrange seedlings. It seems selecting for winter hardiness will be easier than I thought.  I'm sure much fine tuning will be needed, but just surviving isn't as hard as I thought.  And then there is flavor.
I thought getting rid of the extreme sourness of P. trifoliata hybrids would be a long process, over many generations.
So I googled inheritance of sour in citrus.  I got several papers, but here is one that puts it in laymans terms.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190305100651.htm
Basicly, it says there are 2 main genes controling much of the sourness in citrus.  I'm sure there are many modifier genes , but it looks like reducing acid will also be much easier than I thought.

11
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: April 02, 2019, 11:10:20 PM »
I expect to have to carry my plants inside a few times.  Yjey won;'t be safe for another 5 weeks.  But they need to get used to the sun gradually.  Wind too.  Basicly I'll treat them like tomatoes.

12
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: April 02, 2019, 02:40:31 PM »
I don't have numbers, but Taitri has had very few polyembryonic seeds.  Good.
For over a week, I;ve had my older trees outside, bring them in when freeze is predicted.  But today I took almost all my seedlings outside.  45 pots.  Many have several seedlings, so much of this week I will be seperating them and putting the in bigger pots.  Soon the Flying Dragon and precocious Pt can go in the ground.   

13
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: April 02, 2019, 02:16:43 PM »
Using US 852 seedlings, with 60-70% zygotic seedlings would be good.  I might try to buy Stans whole crop next year.  From 14 fruit this year I got only 50 seedlings,  If I had sterilized the seeds, I might have had over 288.  As Ilya said, this has been a learning experience.

14
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: April 02, 2019, 10:57:34 AM »
Poncirus leaf buds have just started to swell the least bit and I expect the surviving hybrids to follow suit shortly. That will bring a moment of truth to this venture.

So the hybrids are breaking dormancy later than P. trifoliata.  That would be a good trait here, where late spring freezes are common.
Unless the hybrids are breaking late due to some cold damage.
 I am learning a lot from your experiment.  Thank you for sharing all this.

15
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: April 01, 2019, 02:13:23 AM »
If they are dwarf because they just grow slower, then I can agree, though I repeat that having survived your winter they are worth having and breeding them.  But if they are dwarf because their internodes are shorter thyn may not be slow maturing.

16
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 31, 2019, 03:04:09 PM »
I'm wondering what you have against the dwarfs.  Dwarfs of many fruits are popular.  To me, surviving a winter would make them treasures.  Do dwarfs in citrus not do well?

17
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 28, 2019, 02:29:44 AM »
Congratulations!  I admired the effort, but didn't think it would work.  Still a long way to go to get good hardy citrus, but you made a huge step.

18
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« on: March 14, 2019, 03:06:11 PM »
If you have 10 still alive, that is 10 more than I expected.  I hope so.

19
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: March 03, 2019, 02:34:19 PM »
I have been having about 5% albinos on seedlings from all F2 interspecific crosses.  I thought that was just the way it was.  Glad to know I can be getting 5% more seedlings with little extra work.

20
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: March 02, 2019, 09:44:15 AM »
I would like to hear about any seedlings from Taitri.  Has anyone grown them to maturity?  What is the rang of quality?

21
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: March 01, 2019, 09:27:31 PM »
Thanks Ilya.  Still another thing I've learned here.  So does this only on seedlings, or at any time in the life of a citrus tree?

22
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: March 01, 2019, 03:25:17 PM »
Here is the first indication of 27 TaiTri seeds beginning to germinate on day 6 inside a repurposed poultry egg incubator. The auxiliary thermostat is set at 86 deg. F., the seeds were disinfected and the seed coats were removed prior to planting. Disinfection and seed coat removal decrease the likelihood of  there being albino seedlings.



I wouldn't expect such treatment to reduce percent albinos.  I think the albinos are due to genetics.  Am I wrong?  I know that with Sorghum and Phasiiolus, where I was keeping seeds from each plant seperate in each generatioin, some of the siblings of albinos gave albinos.  I followed this for 5 generations, just out of curiosity.
I know that this might not be true of citrus.  I have had to adjust my expectations every time I've changed crops.

23
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Citrus seed germination beginning in 6 days
« on: March 01, 2019, 03:16:45 PM »
I've had plenty of albinos from Taitri seeds.  Percentage isn't very high, but when you plant 500 seeds, expect some albinos.
I've had some albinos in every interspecific citrus cross I've germinated.  US 852, Taitri, (Clem x Tri) x Clem, Meyer lemon.  It didn't surprise me.  I've had albinos from many interspecific hybrids over the years.  Sorghum x S. halapensis, Phasiolus vulgarus x Ph. coccinieus. 

24
Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: February 12, 2019, 11:58:43 AM »
Recently I printed this thread and re-read it all, marking things I'd missed and should respond to.
Several times I've written that I'll be growing 200 seedlings per population per generation.  Not the same thing at all.  With 9 populations, that would be 1800 seedlings per generation.  But I've decided I won't be doing population 9.  And population 1, pure P. trifoliata, will be a much smaller population.  All I'll be doing with population 1 will combine precocity, lack of nasty ponciris flavor, and high percent zygotic seeds.  That doesn't require 200 seedlings.  So I'm down to 1400 seedlings per generation.  By starting different populations in different years, I will be starting 200 to 400 seedlings per year.  However, I'm now planning on doing it with mandarins and with finger limes.  That means 400 or more seedlings per year.  I can do that.


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