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Messages - Walt

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Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: December 13, 2018, 01:45:52 PM »
I have 29 Us 852 Zygotic seedling growing.  3 are new today. 2 were new yesterday, so they are still sprouting.  So far only 2 have been polyembryonic.  I should have 200 zygotic seedlings by now, but a move and cold got in the way.
Most are still too small to tell if they are trifoliate or unifoliate.  (monofoliate?  I never know when to use poly or multi and mono or uni.  I don't learn like when I was younger.)  I find that they have to have 4 or 5 leaves before I can tell if those little leaves are single or not.  And then I know from reading this forum that different leaves on the same plant can be trifoliate and unifoliate.
I'm only interested it leaf type to see the first sign of segregation.  I don't really care if my results have trifoliate leaves or not.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Indoor Citrus planter
« on: December 03, 2018, 03:09:41 PM »
I've read that online, in discussions on tomatoes, etc.  I'm wondering if it works on trees.  Mostly I'm wondering about citrus trees, of course.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: December 03, 2018, 12:01:01 PM »
A third seed is germinated this morning.  It has at least 2 seedlings coming from it.  So some are monoembryonic, some are multiembryonic.  Sample size of 3 gives no real statistical information.  But at least I know some are monoembryonic and some aren't.  I have 19 of these planted.  I expect more will germinate.  Every one will give a little more information about percent monoembryonic.
I'll have to sort them and keep track of which are which.
And someone recently posted that percent monoembryonic is influenced by pollen parent.  I expect temperature during growth of seeds before harvest might also influence it.  So much to learn.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Indoor Citrus planter
« on: December 02, 2018, 03:29:08 PM »
Ilya.  Thanks for info on Android lux meter level,  I'll have to get that.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Indoor Citrus planter
« on: December 02, 2018, 03:23:19 PM »
True.  The Agricultural Research Station at Woodward, Oklaholma, USA has their "greenhouse" in their basement, as lighting is cheaper than heating.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: Indoor Citrus planter
« on: December 01, 2018, 04:11:13 PM »
Good for you.
I was in Low's a couple of days ago, and I saw that LED grow lights were selling for $27 for a foot long strip, that when I got home, I found it was extremely bright.  And the red and blue is suposed to be used much better than the full spectrum lights.
This is not an ad for Low's.  I'm sure that if I had shopped online, I could have found it cheaper.  Just saying prices have come down since I had last shopped for LED grow lights.  You might think about adding some.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: December 01, 2018, 03:57:21 PM »
Ilya.  Thanks for the advice.  I have plenty of 3 to 5 year old in pots P. trifoliatas available for roots stocks.  And today I have 5 more US 852 seedlings than yesterday.  They seem to have started germinating for real.  They are small, but someone recently posted a link to a Youtube lesson on micrografting.  Looks like micrografts could be made without sacrificing the seedlings, I mean, I could use the same seedling to graft onto several US 852 seedlings, just in case my first micrografts don't work.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: November 30, 2018, 03:24:36 PM »
N1triVos F2 seedlings started coming up on Thanksgiving.  Now, just 8 days later, the largest is 10 cm. tall, with 9 leaves.  The second largest is 8 1/2 cm., with 7 leaves, but its leaves are wider, so it has more leaf area.  I can already see segregation for some traits, but not the ones that matter.  Seedlings number 5 and 6 came up overnight.  I expect more will come up.
The N1triVos seedlings are next to a pot of finger lime seedling.  Finger limes are about 6 weeks old, I think, and in good health.  But they are less than 1/2 as tall as the tallest N1triVos F2 seedlings.  The finger limes have more leaves, but less leaf area.
Precocity in apples is best measured by counting leaves to first flowers.  I mean when comparing populations not growing in near identical conditions.  So I am counting and recording number of leaves as a measure of precocity, hoping I'll find it is true with citrus.  But I am seeing differences in days of growth between nodes, so I have my doubts.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: November 30, 2018, 03:04:19 PM »
I started planting seeds of US852 about November 1 or 2.  First 2 seedling showed this morning, Nov 30.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: hybrids with precocious Poncirus
« on: November 28, 2018, 01:06:06 PM »
I have some precocious P.t seeds from Laaz germinating.  The first 2 seedling are single, so I guess they are from monozygotic seeds, and maybe therefore zygotic.
A couple of years ago, I got seeds  of precocious P.t from Alan Bishop.  From 10 seeds, I got about 8 seedling.  Though I didn't notice whether they were each from different seeds, the numbers suggest they might have been.
So, has anyone noticed whether Laas's precocious P.t breeds true even when crossed?  If not, I'll be using it as seed parent as well as pollen parent.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Winter care of citranges, etc.
« on: November 24, 2018, 12:04:01 PM »
Yes, my citranges have always wintered indoors, or in an unheated leanto greenhouse on the south side of my house.  There they had mild freezes but remained green and presumably growing some.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: November 20, 2018, 11:51:18 AM »
Riverside says that they have 2 F. hindsii that were both recieved with information that they were tetraploids, but that chromosome counts showed both were diploids.
And now I've told you everything I know about F. hindsii.  It didn't take long, did it?

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: November 19, 2018, 01:13:22 PM »
Ilya, or anybody.  Has any good come from F. hindsii hybrids?  I'm thinking of using it to improve precocity.  But as a fruit, it gets very poor rating, (0).

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Winter care of citranges, etc.
« on: November 17, 2018, 12:44:41 PM »
If your basement have temperature of less than +10C you do not need lights for overwintering.

I think that is my solution for this winter.
But after that. I want year-round growth on my citrus.  Time is wasting.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Winter care of citranges, etc.
« on: November 16, 2018, 12:32:31 PM »
As it says in Game of Thrones, "Winter is coming."
Actually, winter weather is already here, and it will stay a while.
So, how do more experienced people care for their citranges, citandarins, and citstuff that you are overwintering.
I know some of you live where they won't even drop their leaves and require no care over the winter.
Some of you live where they do drop their leaves, but require no special care over the winter.
But mine must come inside or they will never make it to spring.
I left mine outside until they dropped their leaves, then brought them into a cold basement.  I have lights on them, but not enough to do any good.
In the past I kept them in an unheated greenhouse, where the got some light freezes, but never lost their leaves,  But the greenhouse burned.  California isn't the only place with wildfires, through my fire was nothing like theirs.
I had hoped to have a new greenhouse by now, but it will be another couple of months at least.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: November 16, 2018, 12:18:54 PM »
Thanks for the replies.  More would be welcome. 
With over 200 seeds, I could get by using the method I said I planned to use.  But I have no idea what percent will germinate, nor what percent  will be zygotic.  So I might use these additional ways of screening for zygotics.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: November 15, 2018, 04:08:31 PM »
I have been asked how I'll know which seedlings of US852 are zygotic and which are nucellar.
I noted that Ilya tested the leaves for the poncirus smell.  That's a start.  But I'll also be watching as they germinate. 
I assume seeds that send up single seedlings will be mostly zygotic.  Seeds that send up 2 or more seedlings will be mostly nucellar and will be discarded.  Does that sound right?
I used the word mostly because I read that one citrus variety gives mostly nucellar seedlings in spite of having a single seedling per seed.  And I've read that a seed can have one zygotic seedling plus one or more nucellar seedlings.  But I expect that out of a few hundred seeds, I can save mostly zygotic seedlings by this method.  And that's good enough.

I have used a greenhouse dug into a hillside, which never froze in northern zone 6.  But one year a blizzard piled a meter of snow on it and the roof fell in.
I used a greenhouse for 4 or 5 years with shutters of 2" styrofoam which were cranked up in the morning when good weather was predicted.  They were cranked back down nights.  As backup. that greenhouse had a wood stove which we kept filled and ready to light.  There was a thermostat hooked to an alarm.  The thermostat was set just above freezing.  If the alarm went off, someone had to get up and go light it.  It was a lot of daily work, cranking the shutters up and down, and having wood ready all the time.  But it was really cheap. and in those days cheap was very important to us.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: What kind of citrus is this?
« on: November 03, 2018, 04:09:17 PM »
What Citrange reported above says that genes for not liking trifoliate orange is common, it is not universal. 
More to the point, I'm trying to use trifoliate oranges to get more winter hardy citrus that taste good.  I might end up developing hardier citrus that taste good to a small group of people, but not for most people.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: What kind of citrus is this?
« on: November 02, 2018, 03:43:40 PM »
Years ago I taught high school biology.  There were a bunch of papers for tasting to see who could taste what was on a given strip of paper.  There were several different flavors, ability to taste a given chemical is due to a different gene.
I was warned not to give them to students to take home and chart the genes throughout their family tree, as biology classes had done before, because it had lead to law suits when students found out they had genes that neither of their parents had.  It had also lead to divorces.
So we don't all taste the same chemicals.  They most commonly used example is in brassicas (cabbage family).  Many people find brassicas quite bitter.  Others don't taste the bitterness at all.
So while I am quite aware of what is going on, I am suprized to find it in citrus.

For what its worth, I didn't find any bitterness at all in citandarin US 852.  I understand that most people do.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Long term cold hardy citrus breeding project
« on: November 01, 2018, 02:59:28 PM »
Things are moving along, finally.
Seed arrived from Ilya from N1triVoss, and they are planted.  US852 came from Stan of US 852 and 100 seeds were planted this morning.  A plant of Flying Dragon is here.  Plants of Changsha and US 852 are here.  Mr. Hong, of Hong's landscape in Wichita, KS, let me collect all the fruit I wanted from his trees, bushes really.  Lots of seeds are in pots but most are still in the fruit.
All the planted seeds are in pots in the bathroom, the warmest room in the house.
The US 852 fruit are not nearly as bad as I expected, but very sour.
I have a citangre a few years old, and a citremelo, both of a size that might possibly bloom next year, but more likely a year or two later.I also have a nameless fingerlime of blooming size, and a bunch of seedlings from named varieties from seeds from John Dyson.
Walt, Kansas #1 citrus breeder.  (That is meant to be funny.  I'm sure Kansas has no other citrus breeder.)

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: First fruits of Citrumelo 5star x Morton cross
« on: November 01, 2018, 02:40:18 PM »
This is very encouraging.

Citrus General Discussion / Re: What kind of citrus is this?
« on: November 01, 2018, 02:21:20 PM »
I've been "threshing" trifoliatas for seed.  I tried letting the juice sit overnight in the refridgerater, then trying the juice.  Sure, I could have drank it with sugar and water, but why bother?  It just didn't seem worth the bother.  Trifoliata needs some serious breeding if it is ever going to be anything but a root stock.

Cold Hardy Citrus / Re: Large poncyrus fruit!
« on: October 28, 2018, 03:33:17 PM »
They are significantly bigger than what I have.

Walt very interesting about your greenhouse. What were the dimensions and orientation to the sun? What was the glazing? There was another guy in Kansas who did something similar.

Thanks for the link.
My greenhouse was a 20 ft. square.  That's a bit more than 6m. per side.  It was dug into a south-facing side of a valley.  The walls were railroad ties I got 4 for $1, from a railroad that had been abandonded.  Top was 4 ft. by 8 ft sheets of glass from an abandonded solar heater for a school gym, delivered free.
I couldn't afford to build a greenhouse like that using new materials, then or now.

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