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Messages - simon_grow

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26
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« on: October 14, 2017, 04:12:25 PM »
With careful watch over nutrients and pH of the soil, Florida Turpentine rootstock trees can grow ok with multiple vegetative flushes although there is still cracking of the trunk, gummosis, dieback and droopy branches. The pH of the soil here is slightly lower at around 7(most my yard is 8+Before amendment )and I constantly lower it with sulfur granules. The branching starts at about 4 feet and I e been removing all growth that droops too low. This tree had severe cracking and gummosis and I left it alone without any treatment, I did not cut away the affected areas, and the cracks appear to have healed itself and calloused over with healthy tissue. At the time when the trees cracks were open and bleeding out, it is an easy opening for diseases to set in.

I hope now that it has reached what I consider critical mass, it has enough energy to overcome most of the issues with Florida Turpentine rootstock trees. The main issue I still have with this tree is that it can not form full sized fruit, only golfball sized nubbins. Iím hoping that reaching critical mass this year will enable it to have enough energy to overcome the the Powdery Mildew that heavily affects its blooms and Fruit set.




Simon

27
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: White Jade Pineapple
« on: October 14, 2017, 02:53:48 PM »
I though about that but felt that the slips might protect the fruit from animals. Iím not too concerned about the size of this first fruit. For my next fruiting, I will remove most clones and try to get a bigger fruit. The slips around the crown also seem to protect the fruit from sunburn.

Simon

28
another thing that would be very curious to me
is if you use multiple seeds and graft them together...
and... if you dont graft  to the top, but let them grow and fruit
what would it taste like ?
if you grow a Manilla and a Kent and graft them together, what size would the fruit be ?

It may be a fast way of creating a new variety,
 since the seed should hold those genetics (i think?)
and you could grow it out.

The fruit should not be affected much. The multiple rootstocks will increase vigor and in this manner, the tree will be larger and healthier which in turn may yield larger and sweeter Fruit but the overall flavor of the fruit should not be affected to any great extent.

In experiments with citrus and melons, firmness and Brix were affected. With horizontal gene transfer at the graft site, scions arising from the resulting chimera will have new genetic material but who knows exactly what the new DNA encodes for? If the new genes were expressed in the grafted scion wood, we could see some differences in the new plant but nothing significant has been observed so far.

Simon

29
Here are a few other random Mango seedlings I have planted in the yard.







So preliminary results show that random seedlings grow as well as LaVern Manilla. Productivity, disease resistance and long term survivability are yet to be unseen however Leo Manuel has many huge Mango trees and the majority of them are top worked seedling trees.
Simon

30
That could work. Seedlings are highly variable however and Polyembryonic varieties would be the best choice for consistency. Monoembryonic varieties have too much genetic diversity and each seedling can have growth habits completely different than another seedling from the same mother tree.

Here is a picture of a Kent, Keitt, Haden not sure which one, seedling that is approximately 3-4 months old. It is almost two feet tall and has a strong trunk for a seedling itís size. It grew so fast because of the fertilizer and the timing of the growth. It went through itís seedling growth period during Summer and was able to capitalize on all the heat.



Simon

31
I forgot to mention that although none of the trees have died, some of the weaker seedling grafts did die back leaving fewer than the original number of rootstocks. This seedling started out with about 6 rootstocks and it only has about 3-4 left but the remaining rootstocks appear to be strong.

When I compare these CSMR seedlings to normal seedlings planted at the same time, the growth of these multiple rootstock trees is at least double and in some cases triple that of a normal seedling.

This is for trees that have been somewhat neglected and only occasionally fertilized.

I performed another experiment where seedling trees were fertilized With smart release fertilizers( Nutricote) combined with other fertilizers and also up potted at the appropriate growth points and these single rootstock trees performed phenomenally.

I was able to get newly planted seedlings to grow close to 2 feet tall in about 4 months.

To be fair to my CSMR trees, they did not get Nutricote during the critical young seedling stage so I can only imagine how large they would be if they did!

I apologize that all this info is jumbled up into a huge mess that only I can decipher but thatís the way my brain works. I am trying to be as open and candid as possible and Iím reporting all failures and successes.

My experiments are dynamic and this makes it difficult to show exact comparisons between strictly controlled test subjects. For example, after I found out how wonderful Nutricote is for my trees, I applied it to all my experiments but different trees got the fertilizers at different stages of growth which can affect the outcome. As I find out what works and what doesnít, I stop using the techniques that I have already proved to have issues and I adapt new techniques that I find promising.

Simon

32
Here is a California Super Mango Rootstock tree that is a little over 1 year old and grown in a large pot. It only has two rootstocks and is about 3 ft tall and 3.5 feet wide. It appears to be getting ready for one last push for the year. Notice the strong trunk.









Simon

33
A quick update on this experiment, I created several of these California Super Mango rootstock trees and theses trees are basically like my Double stone graft trees but some have more rootstocks innarched to them and these CSMR trees are Not grafted with mature scions.

At a bit past the 1 year mark, all the trees are still alive and I have not experienced any of the issues that the DSG trees had, namely, low survivability and precocity which stunts the trees because much energy is spent on flowering and fruiting.

Instead, these trees are thriving and all the energy that would have gone into flowering and fruiting is stored in the wood until the climate is appropriately warm enough to push a vegetative flush which is strong and lush.

I was busy with my family and some of these CSMR trees were kept in a tiny container too long and appears to have slightly delayed itís growth. Also, more rootstocks does not appear to be the biggest factor affecting rapid growth. I have some Double rootstock( CSMR, Not grafted with mature scions) trees that are outperforming CSMR trees with 5+ rootstocks. I would hazard to guess however that the CSMR trees with more rootstocks and thusly more genetically diverse, will be more disease resistant although this is all assumption for now. I should note that my CSMR trees with 5+ rootstocks happen to be the trees that were kept in too small a container because I was trying to force them to create numerous hairy feeder roots by confining them in small pots treated with Microkote as you may have read in the early pages of this thread. My mistake was keeping them in super small pots for waaaay too long before up potting.

34
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« on: October 14, 2017, 12:28:31 PM »
I've tried amending my soil and I've also planted in holes that weren't amended. My seedlings and Lavern Manilla mango trees are planted in the same soil as the Florida trees and only the florida trees perform poorly.

Here is a Carrie mango on Florida rootstock. It was planted into the ground about two years ago and constantly flowers and fruits with 0-1 veg flush a year. The branches and leaves look horrible, it could be phomopsis slowing it down, not sure.

Anyways, because of its slow progress, I planted several seedlings in the same hole so same soil, same water and same fertilizer. As you can see in the picture, the seedlings have put on two vegetative growth flushes and I believe they will overtake the Carrie in 1-2 years. one of the seedlings is I grafted and the other seedling is grafted with Venus. The. Venus flowered and tried to hold fruit which I removed.

The largest tallest tree is the Carrie but it is much older than the seedlings which were planted last year IIRC

Simon




Here is an update of this little experiment. The Carrie on Florida Turpentine rootstock was the biggest tree and the seedlings were planted much later. First, here is an update of the Carrie:


 Remember that these trees/seeds were planted in the exact same hole so they receive the same water, fertilizer and sunlight. If anything, the seedlings has it worse because they were smaller and unestablished. The seedlings were also partially shaded by the much larger Carrie.

As you can see, the Carrie is dead and the in situ grafted seedling(CAC) is taller than the Carrie when it was in its prime. Notice that the seedling grafted with CAC is growing strong with uprightbranches and there is no signs of disease or drooping. Here is the seedling, now much larger:







Simon

35
I copy and pasted this from another thread because the discussion is useful here:
I have a bunch of random seedlings and itís too early to say for sure but they all seem to grow as well as the Lavern Manilla Mango seedlings.

Simon

Interesting.  What do you think it is about the Turpentine seedlings they use in Florida that makes them particularly bad for California?  I ask because if so many different seedlings can work for us, but Turpentine doesn't, there must be something about it that makes it uniquely bad for us and good in Florida.

Iíve been contemplating this fact for about the last six years and canít say for sure what it is but there are several possibilities that do pop up in my head.

One of the possibilities is the fact that the trees are initially grown and potted in Florida and we donít know how long theyíve been in the pots. They can be in the pots for extended periods of time because they need to be shipped to California and once they reach their destination here, they still need to be displayed at the Nursery where they may sit for another several months up to several years before they are sold. Based on my own personal experience, trees that are immediately planted into the ground as soon as they are purchased establish faster and appear to be much healthier than a tree that is purchased and kept in a pot for an extended period of time before planting.

Having stated the above, I was delivered several trees which were smaller and very healthy when I received them and I immediately planted them into the ground and they still died. They were Tebow, Carrie, NDM #4 and Mallika.

Another possibility is that there are disease pressures here that are not prevalent in Florida. Some of the major issues we get here is Phomopsis, gummosis and droopy branches that seem to lignify at a small diameter and not expanding much, or at all, after the lignification. I can pretty easily look at a Mango trees trunk and branches and tell whether itís a Florida tree or not.

We have noticed several details that should give us a clue as to why the Florida trees perform so poorly here. Several varieties such as Valencia Pride, Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart and a few others appear to grow very well here on Florida rootstock although they still get some dieback, gummosis and droopy branches. These varieties are all vigorous and seem to be able to outgrow whatever it is thatís inhibiting other varieties on Florida rootstock.

Another pattern that I have noticed over the years is that the Florida rootstock trees appear to grow much better in areas with more heat units. This should be obvious to most people but it can easily be overlooked when we are focused on a specific geographical location such as Florida Vs SoCal. In Palm Springs, Garyís trees on Florida rootstock are growing very well and even his Lemon Zest on Florida Turpentine rootstock is growing excellent and producing lots of high quality fruit.

When we focus in specifically on SoCal, I have noticed a trend where all the microclimates with higher heat units such as La Habra, Anaheim Hills and other slightly warmer cities in SoCal have much better success with Florida trees than in cooler climates like mine.

I know we would like to keep it simple and find the one reason why the Florida rootstock trees perform so poorly here but nature is complex and dynamic and I believe the issue is a combination of all the factors I listed above.

If I were to make my best guess right now, I would say that the Florida trees perform poorly here because (1) of the long duration they are kept in their pots, both at the Nursery in Florida, the Nursery here in SoCal and also at the homeowners property before they are planted into the ground.
(2) there are disease pressures here, or acquired in Florida, that affect our trees much more severely because of reason (1) above and because our cooler climate does not enable our trees to outgrow the disease pressures as easily as if they were grown at a warmer climate with higher heat units such as that of Florida or warmer parts of SoCal.

A grower can better understand what Iím describing above if you track how many vegetative growth flushes we get here Vs what Floridians get. Some of my Florida rootstock trees such as Glenn, Edward, Spirit of 76 and Maha Chanok have been in the ground about 7 years now and on average, they only vegetatively flush twice a year.

This is partially due to the fact that they bloom and hold fruit for about 6+ months out of the year and we only get good vegetative flushes for the warmest 2-4 months depending on where you live.

In order to capitalize on this small window period of ďIdealĒ growing weather, the Mango grower must water and fertilize properly in order to take advantage of these conditions.

I will copy and paste this into my ďGrowing Mango trees in SoCalĒ thread as I am drifting off topic.

Simon

36
I have a bunch of random seedlings and itís too early to say for sure but they all seem to grow as well as the Lavern Manilla Mango seedlings.

Simon

Interesting.  What do you think it is about the Turpentine seedlings they use in Florida that makes them particularly bad for California?  I ask because if so many different seedlings can work for us, but Turpentine doesn't, there must be something about it that makes it uniquely bad for us and good in Florida.

Iíve been contemplating this fact for about the last six years and canít say for sure what it is but there are several possibilities that do pop up in my head.

One of the possibilities is the fact that the trees are initially grown and potted in Florida and we donít know how long theyíve been in the pots. They can be in the pots for extended periods of time because they need to be shipped to California and once they reach their destination here, they still need to be displayed at the Nursery where they may sit for another several months up to several years before they are sold. Based on my own personal experience, trees that are immediately planted into the ground as soon as they are purchased establish faster and appear to be much healthier than a tree that is purchased and kept in a pot for an extended period of time before planting.

Having stated the above, I was delivered several trees which were smaller and very healthy when I received them and I immediately planted them into the ground and they still died. They were Tebow, Carrie, NDM #4 and Mallika.

Another possibility is that there are disease pressures here that are not prevalent in Florida. Some of the major issues we get here is Phomopsis, gummosis and droopy branches that seem to lignify at a small diameter and not expanding much, or at all, after the lignification. I can pretty easily look at a Mango trees trunk and branches and tell whether itís a Florida tree or not.

We have noticed several details that should give us a clue as to why the Florida trees perform so poorly here. Several varieties such as Valencia Pride, Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart and a few others appear to grow very well here on Florida rootstock although they still get some dieback, gummosis and droopy branches. These varieties are all vigorous and seem to be able to outgrow whatever it is thatís inhibiting other varieties on Florida rootstock.

Another pattern that I have noticed over the years is that the Florida rootstock trees appear to grow much better in areas with more heat units. This should be obvious to most people but it can easily be overlooked when we are focused on a specific geographical location such as Florida Vs SoCal. In Palm Springs, Garyís trees on Florida rootstock are growing very well and even his Lemon Zest on Florida Turpentine rootstock is growing excellent and producing lots of high quality fruit.

When we focus in specifically on SoCal, I have noticed a trend where all the microclimates with higher heat units such as La Habra, Anaheim Hills and other slightly warmer cities in SoCal have much better success with Florida trees than in cooler climates like mine.

I know we would like to keep it simple and find the one reason why the Florida rootstock trees perform so poorly here but nature is complex and dynamic and I believe the issue is a combination of all the factors I listed above.

If I were to make my best guess right now, I would say that the Florida trees perform poorly here because (1) of the long duration they are kept in their pots, both at the Nursery in Florida, the Nursery here in SoCal and also at the homeowners property before they are planted into the ground.
(2) there are disease pressures here, or acquired in Florida, that affect our trees much more severely because of reason (1) above and because our cooler climate does not enable our trees to outgrow the disease pressures as easily as if they were grown at a warmer climate with higher heat units such as that of Florida or warmer parts of SoCal.

A grower can better understand what Iím describing above if you track how many vegetative growth flushes we get here Vs what Floridians get. Some of my Florida rootstock trees such as Glenn, Edward, Spirit of 76 and Maha Chanok have been in the ground about 7 years now and on average, they only vegetatively flush twice a year.

This is partially due to the fact that they bloom and hold fruit for about 6+ months out of the year and we only get good vegetative flushes for the warmest 2-4 months depending on where you live.

In order to capitalize on this small window period of ďIdealĒ growing weather, the Mango grower must water and fertilize properly in order to take advantage of these conditions.

I will copy and paste this into my ďGrowing Mango trees in SoCalĒ thread as I am drifting off topic.

Simon

37
This is a really interesting method. I'm going ot have to give it a try.

I have a part of my yard with some amended soil and almost full shade. Seedlings typically adjust better to Vegas conditions I've found, at least in terms of mangos that I've played with, so this will be a fun experiment to try.

I'm curious, which rootstock should I grow from seed would have the best soil salt tolerance?

Try several different types if you have access to seeds, some species or hybrids may have better resistance to root rot or salinity than others.

My friend and I are still enjoying the fruits of our labor. The original tree that started this thread is doing great. We topped it low so itís growing wide and bushy like we wanted.

Simon

38
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: White Jade Pineapple
« on: October 14, 2017, 10:52:07 AM »
I just checked when I first noticed the flower stalk and it was around June 12 so the fruit should be ready somewhere around December 12. My climate is marginal for Pineapples and itís starting to get cold here at night. Nightly lows are around 57-59 now but the daily highs can still get up into the upper 80s. I wonder if the big differences between the daily highs and lows will affect the fruit quality?

Simon

39
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: White Jade Pineapple
« on: October 14, 2017, 10:43:55 AM »
Here is an update of my first White Jade Pineapple plant and Fruit. The slips and suckers are growing very large now, almost completely shading the fruit. The fruit doesnít seem to getting much larger and it appears as if some of the eyes are starting to lighten up in color but it should still have about another two months to grow according to the six month rule.

One of my friends has a pineapple plant with a fruit on it that was close to ripening and an animal cake by and nibbled on the bottom of the pineapple. My plant has slips and suckers at the base and these baby plants have very sharp pointed leaves that acts like a barrier, or at least I hope they will.









Simon

40
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Annona Rosada
« on: October 14, 2017, 10:14:56 AM »
Those Annona Rosada look amazing Frank! I remember all the fruit you had hanging on the tree and they were all very large. Do they graft well on Cherimoya?

Simon

41
I have a bunch of random seedlings and itís too early to say for sure but they all seem to grow as well as the Lavern Manilla Mango seedlings.

Simon

42
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Please help Identify mango disease
« on: October 13, 2017, 05:59:35 PM »
In your second picture, have you checked that plant for thrips? It would be safe to perform a foliar spray with Southern Ag Citrus nutritional spray which you can pick up at Home Depot.

Simon

43
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Please help Identify mango disease
« on: October 13, 2017, 05:38:51 PM »
Did you recently re pot those seedlings or move them from a shady spot of the yard to a sunny spot in the yard? With the recent heat wave we got, trees not accustomed to full sun can easily get sun burned.

Simon

44
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Truly tropical top 5
« on: October 13, 2017, 05:32:13 PM »
My top five are
1 Lemon Zest
2 Sweet Tart
3 Kesar
4 Seniorita
5 Leo Keitt seedling

Simon

What is this LEO KEITT SEEDLING a couple of you are talking about?

Thanks,
Joe.
Leo Manuel grew a Keitt seedling.  It turned out to be a great-tasting mango.  (Why don't you call it "Leo?"  Frances Hargrave was a Keitt seedling also, wasn't it?)

Hey John, I hope that Leo does eventually name it because it was excellent tasting even when compared to the numerous named varieties that it went up against. We need more data to collect over several more years to see if it is consistently a good Mango. Leo planted the seed so it will be up to him to give this Mango a name. I will try to find out more about this variety next time I visit him. Hopefully production is good. Iíll also ask about vigor and disease resistance.

Simon

45
Hey Mango Maniac12,

Yes, these Keitt seeds are definitely worth planting, Iíve planted numerous Keitt seeds myself. I havenít updated my experiments in a while but so far Iím finding out that any Mango seeds whether they be Kent, Keitt, Haden, Tommy Atkins or Manilla all work well for rootstocks. When planted early enough in the season to take advantage of the Summer heat, they can grow at an extremely rapid rate.

Simon

46
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cherimoya season inSocal
« on: October 13, 2017, 02:08:50 PM »
Frank, the Annonas in your moms yard weíre huge and absolutely looked perfect.

I hand pollinate my flowers and removed all misshaped fruit in trees he first round of thinning. I was supposed to remove fruit that were too close to each other in the second and third round of thinning but as you can see in the pictures, I was too late. This is a multi graft tree with about 6 varieties on it.

Simon

47
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Cherimoya season inSocal
« on: October 11, 2017, 11:45:51 PM »
Hereís a shot of some fruit on my tree, I performed the first round of thinning but skipped the second round because I was too busy. I would much rather have fewer larger fruit than a bunch of smalls because the ratio of flesh to seeds/skin is higher in larger fruit.

My hand in picture for scale


Simon

you call this thinning? OMG

I wish I did the second round of thinning because these fruit were all smaller than when I thin properly.

Simon

48
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Truly tropical top 5
« on: October 11, 2017, 11:42:31 PM »
My top five are
1 Lemon Zest
2 Sweet Tart
3 Kesar
4 Seniorita
5 Leo Keitt seedling

Simon

49
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: help pruning young cherimoya
« on: October 10, 2017, 09:49:48 PM »
Do you know when your dormant season is and also when you typically get new growth on your Cherimoya tree? Iím inexperienced with growing Cherimoya anywhere other than SoCal. Frank(JF) is very experienced with Annonas so Iíd follow his advice.

Since you say the tree is completely falling over, you can stake it half way up so that itís somewhat straight but allowing for the top and branches to blow a bit in the wind.

Do you happen to see any buds from the petiole scars? Do you get any frost in your climate?

Simon

50
Tropical Fruit Discussion / Re: Dragon Fruit Set
« on: October 10, 2017, 09:42:49 PM »
If it is large in size and flowered well but didnít set any fruit, itís pretty safe to say it needs to be cross pollinated. Sometimes humidity levels can affect the level of receptiveness or viability of the female/male parts. I recommend planting S-8(Sugar Dragon) as a cross pollinator because it flowers profusely and can set multiple crops. My vine set three rounds of fruit and still has a bunch of flowers, which probably wonít set fruit because itís getting too late in the season.

Simon

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