Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers

Tropical Fruit => Tropical Fruit Discussion => Topic started by: simon_grow on July 31, 2016, 05:08:50 PM

Title: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on July 31, 2016, 05:08:50 PM
In an effort to learn and move forward, I have one upped my Double Stone Graft experiments and wish to create a super Mango rootstock with accelerated growth, increased adaptability to bioburden and different soil conditions and without the unnecessary expenditure of energy spent on flowering that is encountered with the Double Stone Grafted trees. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0) which unfortunately flowers in less than one year from grafting when grown in cool climates.

In order to accomplish this, I will be utilizing root pruning technology combined with multiple rootstock technology, especially emphasizing the use of specially selected rootstocks from dynamic geographies. Root pruning via MicroKote painted pots will inhibit root circling and promote a dense and fibrous root system that is more capable of up taking nutrients and water.

I am developing this technique for backyard Mango growers attempting to grow this fruit in marginal climates and/or marginal soil conditions. Because the average dooryard gardener lacks the resources to test out rootstocks in a scientific manner, I will be using multiple rootstocks in hopes that any one of the given rootstocks will perform better than another. The more diversity of rootstocks I use, the broader the range of growing conditions I hope my trees will be able to handle.

In this experiment, I will not be grafting a named cultivar onto the multiple rootstock tree, at least not initially. I will simply be innarching them together to create a melting pot of rootstocks. I will be growing these multiple rootstock trees in their root pruning pots for 1-2 years while stepping up the size of their root pruning containers in order to increase the density of roots which should enable the tree to be planted directly into the ground with little or no transplant shock.

My first round of multirootstock trees will be planted in very close proximity in order to minimize the footprint and facilitate grafting although this will surely restrict root growth to some extent due to extremely close competition between the roots within a pot. This phase is more of a testing of the waters which will help get my hands dirty before I begin my next phase of tests. With my a double Stone Graft experiments, it took me lots of trial and error work before I finally nailed down the process to be as efficient and streamlined as possible.

I'm eager to see what the rootmass will look like since I have 6+ seeds planted into a container about the size of a 1 quart jar. In my DSG thread(link posted above) you can see pictures showing the root system of several seedlings. The taproot can reach 6+ inches before the mango sprout even pops out of the soil so these seedlings here should have already been chemically root pruned by the time they sprout.

(https://s32.postimg.cc/al3kg7ehd/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/al3kg7ehd/)

(https://s32.postimg.cc/ost94ur69/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ost94ur69/)

(https://s32.postimg.cc/dhv6u89ox/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/dhv6u89ox/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on July 31, 2016, 06:25:38 PM
I just re read my first post and to those of you that have not been following my Double Stone Graft experiment, it would sound like I'm trying to create a non flowering mango tree, lol! Not true. In order to achieve a large fruiting Mango tree in as short of a timeframe as possible, we need to inhibit flowering of our young trees/rootstocks.

Mango trees grown in cooler climates must achieve a canopy size and trunk diameter of a yet unspecified critical mass before allowing it to fruit in order to avoid unnecessary expenditure of resources in flowering and fruiting. Grafting mature scion onto the rootstock will surely induce blooms during cold weather. So when should I top work the Super rootstock? The benefit of the Double Stone Graft is that I only needed to graft a single scion onto the double rootstocks but this leaves me with a small plant wanting to bloom its first year. If I wait too long, I will have a huge tree with multiple main branches with hardened brown wood that is much more difficult to graft and will require the use of multiple scions.

I will probably grow the Super rootstock to about 3-4 feet tall the first year at which point I will top it and wait for the new shoots to form at the top. I will then select 3-4 evenly spaced branches to form into the future scaffold branches. I don't want to side veneer scions onto the main trunk as grafting mature scions will induce blooming in Winter. I will keep this Super rootstock tree outdoors in the air pruning containers until the tree has been up potted several times and the roots are dense and have filled the final size container.

The tree at this point should be 5+ feet with 3-4 scaffold branches with a good amount of leaves on each main branch. At the end of year two or the beginning of year three, I will head back each of the 3-4 scaffold branches leaving approx 6 inches of branch where I will bark graft each of the splits. In other words, I will be topworking this tree. By doing this, I hope to capitalize on the strong root system and hopefully high vigor of the tree to push the grafts. Timing is critical for this last step and I hazard to guess that June-July will be the ideal months to graft Mango in SoCal with minimal risk of flowering. By grafting in June, this tree should grow vegetatively until November or December when it will most likely flower. Flower and fruit will be removed for the first year or two after field planting in order to allow the tree to fully establish.

If the bark grafts fail for any reason, the vigor of the tree will in all likelihood push new sprouts from below the heading cuts. These shoots can also be grafted.

Please excuse my brainstorming session, I'm still trying to figure everything out.

My next round of experiments are nearly identical but the seeds are planted farther apart giving each root system more room to grow but making it more difficult to bend the seedlings together for grafting.
Previous pictures were from 1-2 weeks ago, here are some updates.


(https://s31.postimg.cc/89497teav/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/89497teav/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/6il86bwrr/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6il86bwrr/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/i8z5nppk7/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/i8z5nppk7/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/hxhpay947/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hxhpay947/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on July 31, 2016, 06:49:20 PM
Here is some information I found that is helping me along with my experiments. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0)

Thanks to HIFarm and Oscar for pointing me to this article, see page 24. I am especially interested in the use of M. Laurina as a rootstock for its potential ability to resist Anthracnose. Also of special interest to me is the use use of M.gedebe, M. griffithii and M. quadrafida as a rootstocks for poorly drained soils such as the heavy clay, low oxygen soils in my yard. M.gedebe has been used successfully in East Kalimantan according to the report. http://repository.wwf.org.my/technical_reports/W/WildMangiferaSpeciesInKalimantanIndonesiaAndInMalaysia.pdf (http://repository.wwf.org.my/technical_reports/W/WildMangiferaSpeciesInKalimantanIndonesiaAndInMalaysia.pdf)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Stan on July 31, 2016, 07:34:23 PM
Did you see the youtube vid with grafting Mango by bark? I never heard of that.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on July 31, 2016, 08:32:30 PM
I've seen all The Shramajeevi videos and several others on bark grafting. I've done several bark grafts on Mango with good success. It's just so much easier to perform greenwood grafts.

Here is an update after the initial approach grafts. I've still got lots of grafting before all the rootstocks are connected.

Simon
(https://s31.postimg.cc/lh3n0nonr/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/lh3n0nonr/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/5k4v3xw9j/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5k4v3xw9j/)
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on July 31, 2016, 11:59:51 PM
Several of the rootstocks I am using in this experiment were selected because of favorable growth patterns I've personally witnessed or because of anecdotle reports that it may grow better in a particular type of soil. I used a combination of Monoembryonic and Polyembryonic Mango seeds because of the reports in CRFG and other sources that hint to Monoembryonic Mango trees being more resistant to Powdery Mildew whereas Polyembryonic Mango trees are reported to give better resistance to Anthracnose.

I would like to thank Mangofang(Gary) for sharing his seeds from his large Manilla Mango tree with me. Manilla is going to be the primary rootstock I attach all other seedlings to because of its proven ability to grow in my high pH, heavy clay and low oxygen soils. I will likely test out other varieties as the "Main" rootstock such as Fairchild(thanks for recommendation Zands), Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart. If I can get a hold of some Kesar seeds, I would like to test it out as the main rootstock as well.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: wslau on August 01, 2016, 01:26:10 AM
Several of the rootstocks I am using in this experiment were selected because of favorable growth patterns I've personally witnessed or because of anecdotle reports that it may grow better in a particular type of soil. I used a combination of Monoembryonic and Polyembryonic Mango seeds because of the reports in CRFG and other sources that hint to Monoembryonic Mango trees being more resistant to Powdery Mildew whereas Polyembryonic Mango trees are reported to give better resistance to Anthracnose.

I would like to thank Mangofang(Gary) for sharing his seeds from his large Manilla Mango tree with me. Manilla is going to be the primary rootstock I attach all other seedlings to because of its proven ability to grow in my high pH, heavy clay and low oxygen soils. I will likely test out other varieties as the "Main" rootstock such as Fairchild(thanks for recommendation Zands), Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart. If I can get a hold of some Kesar seeds, I would like to test it out as the main rootstock as well.

Simon

Simon,
I have made 2 Fairchild seedling rootstock for you for your trials.  I will give them to you (should they survive) when I see you in September.

btw, do you really get anthracnose in San Diego?
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 01, 2016, 08:27:12 AM
Thanks Warren, that would be great. Yes, I get lots of Anthracnose in my yard. My yard is very moist in the mornings and my mangos usually have some Anthracnose when I pick the fruit from the tree. The Anthracnose really reveals itself when I set my fruit on the counter to ripen. By the time the fruit are ready to eat, there are usually at least several spots on them. I have not fruited many varieties of mango in my yard but my Mahas and Glenn get Anthracnose. My Lemon Zest and Pineapple Pleasures are clean so far but they are far from being ripe. I am trying to see if I notice a pattern for Anthracnose infections such as if the Polyembryonic or Monoembryonic mango varieties tend to get it more, nothing so far.

Even Leo's fruit gets anthracnose. We are close enough to the coast to get coastal moisture at times and we often get heavy fog. Many gardeners around here also grow fungus magnets like Tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini, etc...

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 04, 2016, 11:31:39 AM
It's been about a week since I've made the first cuts on the rootstocks and the innarched seedlings tops are starting to push again so this tells me that the healing process has already started. The seedlings come from a diverse background and it shows in their rate of growth and the smell of their leaves.

When grafting newly sprouted seedlings, the first thing you will notice this that the main trunks/sprouts are extremely juicy and fragile, more like a tomato or melon sprout compared to a stiffer greenwood Mango stage. For making cuts on these fragile stalks, I like to use razor blades instead of the box cutter I normally use.

Because these sprouts are so fragile, you have to be very careful not to cut through the entire stalk. As soon as you make the cut, sap will immediately start to come out of the cuts which may make it a bit more difficult to wrap because it will be slippery and the parafilm may not stick to itself. Because so much moisture is lost, I remove several leaves from the top of each grafted seedling, this will also allow more light to make it to the smaller, newly emerging seedlings.

(https://s31.postimg.cc/oqmqwdeef/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/oqmqwdeef/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/ryr89f0o7/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ryr89f0o7/)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/734xy64h3/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/734xy64h3/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 04, 2016, 12:24:34 PM
Here is an in situ grafted Venus on single Kent rootstock that decided to bloom now, in August, this is the reason why I must wait until June-August to graft. The earlier I graft, the more time I will give my plants to push the scion but grafting earlier in the year also increases the risk of blooms. The later I graft, the less time I give the scion to push vegetative growth before winter but this increases my liklihood of getting a vegetative instead of floral push.

Venus is supposed to be a later season mango but I wonder how late is too late? I know Leo gets high quality Winter mangos but I wonder just how late we can actually push it without being detrimental to fruit quality.
(https://s32.postimg.cc/fit1i78lt/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fit1i78lt/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: sapote on August 04, 2016, 02:59:33 PM
"I will probably grow the Super rootstock to about 3-4 feet tall the first year."

This is amazing growth rate!!! I never could get my seedling first year over 2 feet. Too much loving could kill my mango.

How do you push it so fast? Pull in front or push from behind :)?

Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: sapote on August 04, 2016, 03:08:40 PM
Simon,

In this photo I can't see the green color seeds that usually presented next to those young seedlings. Were they being covered under the top soil? I found those "egg york" seeds would be rotted too fast if they were covered.


(https://s31.postimg.cc/kj81hfbpz/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/kj81hfbpz/)
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 04, 2016, 03:42:51 PM
Hey Sapote, I have no issues germinating Mango seeds. They usually germinate in 1-3 weeks, average around 2 weeks. The key is to give them full sunlight which should bring the soil temps in the pot around 90-100+F. The warmer they are, the faster they sprout. I'm sure, I occasionally get a rotten seed but I plant so many seeds that I usually have enough for my needs.

I like to plant my seeds about 1 inch below the soil. If I feel I have a weak seed, say perhaps from a Polyembryonic seed, I may plant the embryo right at the surface. The issue I have with planting the embryo at the surface is that the top 1 inch of soil dries out really quickly and when the seedling sprouts, the sprouts can be top heavy and start to lean down because the sprout was not anchored below the soil.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: sapote on August 04, 2016, 06:47:21 PM
"I like to plant my seeds about 1 inch below the soil."

Very interesting. I assume you meant the top of the seed was 1" below the soil. This had not worked for me -- they were all rotted. I seeded mine just the same way in nature, except hush-less: half the seed above soil and in warm but under shade. In full sun they failed on me. With seedlings in the tall milk carton about 12" tall, I don't have circled tap root in one year and just planted the whole carton after making some vertical cuts around the box. No soil fall-off issue.




(https://s31.postimg.cc/6dti7wa47/IMG_0711.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6dti7wa47/)
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 04, 2016, 07:15:46 PM
"I will probably grow the Super rootstock to about 3-4 feet tall the first year."

This is amazing growth rate!!! I never could get my seedling first year over 2 feet. Too much loving could kill my mango.

How do you push it so fast? Pull in front or push from behind :)?

Hey Sapote, I have not accomplished this yet, this is only a goal and it is based on my observations that the Lavern Manilla are approximately 1 year old, most of them are 3-4 feet tall when I purchase them. I have heard that Lavern grows their seedlings in a greenhouse so I will be at a disadvantage but I have the benefit of multiple root systems.

I am documenting the entire process with pictures of the progression so that the growth rate can be validated. It would be too easy for anyone to claim they had a seedling grow ten feet in 3 years but to see pictures of the progression to verify the claims would be even more spectacular.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Vernmented on August 04, 2016, 11:59:27 PM
Here is some information I found that is helping me along with my experiments. [url]http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0[/url] ([url]http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=20816.0[/url])

Thanks to HIFarm and Oscar for pointing me to this article, see page 24. I am especially interested in the use of M. Laurina as a rootstock for its potential ability to resist Anthracnose. Also of special interest to me is the use use of M.gedebe, M. griffithii and M. quadrafida as a rootstocks for poorly drained soils such as the heavy clay, low oxygen soils in my yard. M.gedebe has been used successfully in East Kalimantan according to the report. [url]http://repository.wwf.org.my/technical_reports/W/WildMangiferaSpeciesInKalimantanIndonesiaAndInMalaysia.pdf[/url] ([url]http://repository.wwf.org.my/technical_reports/W/WildMangiferaSpeciesInKalimantanIndonesiaAndInMalaysia.pdf[/url])
Simon


Hi Simon. I love what you are doing here. Thank you for taking the time to document all of this. I have some multi rootstock projects come up soon and a few little things I have been messing with in the past 6 months. If you are really interested in the multispecies approach this article will help you a lot. I just had a farm tour and class a few days ago at Fairchild Farms with Dr. Richard Campbell. He got into a lot of things but he went into great detail with this fantastic breeding program they are doing there. They already have some successful crosses between species and have been planting out the seeds for years. What would be really helpful for you is their experience with interstock grafting for compatibility with the turpentine rootstock they use for the limestone they plant into. He also said that next years mango festival will be the "wild" species theme and they will have grafted trees available to purchase! :) The casturi mango is delicious by the way if you haven't had it.

http://www.fairchildgarden.org/Portals/0/images/Fruit%20Program/Publicacions/China-update_on_New_Mangifera_species_in_Florida.pdf (http://www.fairchildgarden.org/Portals/0/images/Fruit%20Program/Publicacions/China-update_on_New_Mangifera_species_in_Florida.pdf)

Also, have you thought about planting in oversize mounds? I am dealing with muck at my home planting and I am going to be reworking with with augering through the compressed ancient swamp bed, amending with biochar and perlite, and making huge planting mounds. The few plantings I did this for are really thriving. I am a big fan of putting in the extra effort in dooryard plantings to push things into the more ideal microclimate. I am going to take some pics and videos to track the progress. 

Here is a picture of Richard Campbell in front of the shell of the isolation cage from one of the wild/indica crosses they did. I forget which species this was.

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8706/28157587554_b94218d912_c.jpg)

This really is an incredible time to be a mango grower.   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 05, 2016, 12:22:52 AM
Hey Josh, thanks for the information! Hopefully Dr Campbell will be successful with his crosses, sounds like he already is. I would believe he is likely breeding for better adaptation to fungal issues while keeping production high. I'm sure the crosses will help with better adaptability to high pH and wet growing conditions as the article i posted shows there is real potential there.

I rely heavily on forum members like you to help me along as I am completely oblivious to what going on over in Florida. I hope that what Dr Crane and Dr Campbell does will help all of us dooryard growers.

From what you have posted, their experiments are the real deal with scientific controls and a planned goal. I'm just a backyard grower with several spots in my yard playing around with grafting in the hopes of developing a technique that can benefit people growing Mango in marginal climates.

Please keep us updated with what you find out. If you can find out what species they are using and the goal of using that species, such as resistance to anthracnose, that would be great. I'm especially interested in acquiring rootstock of these new hybrids. tyanjs again for relaying the information, it really helps!

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 11, 2016, 03:10:45 PM
Here's the second part of my experiment. This set of seeds was planted slightly farther apart making it easier to wrap with grafting tape and giving the seeds a little more room to spread out. For this experiment, I planted the seeds inside a large MicroKote treated pot. The point of this experiment is to see if I will get similar root pruning benefits if the seedlings are not stepped up in pot size.

I feel that by purposefully cramping the roots in a small Root pruning pot, it will promote faster root pruning and provide for a more dense root system. For this experiment, the seeds are in a large root pruning pot and they will not be stepped up. I believe the roots will sprout from the seeds and go straight down until they hit the bottom of the container. Once it hits the root pruning paint, the root will be tip pruned and stimulate root branching. Because these seeds are in a large and deep pot, the root pruning will not occur until the roots hit the sides or bottom of the container.


(https://s9.postimg.cc/99vjrg06j/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/99vjrg06j/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 11, 2016, 03:23:18 PM
While grafting these seedlings last night, I noticed that each seedlings sap smelled similar to the taste of the fruit. For example, when I cut into the Lemon Zest seedling, the sap smelled like Lemon Zest. Because LZ is Polyembryonic, this may be one method to determine which seedling is the clone before the mature leaves have formed. Once the mature leaves have formed, you should be able to tell which is the clone by the wavy look of the LZ leaves. I'm not sure if the Zygotic LZ seedling will have the same LZ smell or not, my hand was cross contaminated already so after I cut one of the LZ seedlings, everything smelled similar.

Here is a look at the roots from my first set of experiments where the seedlings were cramped into a small pot allowing them to get root pruned much earlier. You can see there are multiple root tips trying to poke out of the drainage holes. I'm hoping that there is already a dense fibrous root system starting to develope inside this cramped pot. I will be up potting into a larger root pruning pot in the next couple days.
(https://s9.postimg.cc/lehb7vj6z/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/lehb7vj6z/)

(https://s9.postimg.cc/y75f7susr/image.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/y75f7susr/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Vernmented on August 13, 2016, 01:33:17 PM
One issue with large pots is the tendency for roots to shoot downward and circle the bottom of the pot. The deeper the pot the larger the root void I would think. I am sure you will still be light years ahead of a nursery grafted tree that is ALWAYS shaped like a 1 gallon pot. Actually, Pine Island Nursery recently started using smaller than 1 gallon pots to grow out their mango rootstock for grafting.

I have heard that Zill crumbles the leaves and smells them when he is doing his breeding with the seedling trees. You can really tell a difference in the fruits when you smell other parts of the plant.

Keep it up!  :)
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on August 13, 2016, 05:11:53 PM
Thanks for the info Josh! Every pot for this round of experiments is in MicroKote treated pots so once the roots hit the bottom, they should be root pruned instead of having their roots circle.

I have trays of seedlings in super cramped MicroKote treated pots to see if I can induce early dense hairy root growth. A dense hairy root structure will better utilize the soil, nutrients and water. I hope to grow these seedlings and allow root pruning to occur before up potting them to larger root pruning pots. Once I dig up some of these seedlings, I will try to get a good picture to see if I get a more dense and fibrous root system than when grown in traditional pots.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: alangr088 on November 22, 2016, 10:51:20 PM
Is there updated pictures of your experiment?
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 23, 2016, 08:19:40 AM
Excellent thread BTW.

Paint laden with copper hydroxide painted onto conventional pot bottoms and sides is close to 100% efficient in terminating root tips which induces lateral branching....more root mass. I'm still on my Griffin's Spin-out paints but here's an old DIY thread of making your own.   Air/light pruning using RootMaker products or Smart Pots are very efficient too.

Microkote used to be made under the brand-name SpinOut by Griffin L.L.C. until SePRO bought the rights. After the re-branding they added  other metals labeled as "nutrients". In my opinion this is all marketing; the roots will be stopped and not absorb anything near the Microkote layer - so really the only active ingredient is the chemical that stops the roots from growing further (this chemical is copper hydroxide which was the original ingredient in SpinOut).

Microkote is pricey ($28 for 8oz). But you should be able to make your own.

1) Buy some dry Copper(II) Hydroxide, this is used usually as a fungus pestizide. Interestingly, SePro stuff can be bought on ebay ([url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/CuPRO-5000DF-Fungicide-Bactericide-61-3-Copper-Hydroxide-SePRO-3lb-foil-bag-/370622313276[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/CuPRO-5000DF-Fungicide-Bactericide-61-3-Copper-Hydroxide-SePRO-3lb-foil-bag-/370622313276[/url])), this is probably the same stuff they put into Microkote. Other sources are      
KOCIDE 3000 (made by DuPont) or [url]http://kingquenson.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/424951536-200579235/Copper_hydroxide.html.[/url] ([url]http://kingquenson.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/424951536-200579235/Copper_hydroxide.html.[/url])
2) Dilute the Copper(II) Hydroxide in latex paint. The original SpinOut was made with 13 oz/Gal of Copper(II) Hydroxide (source: [url]http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/28/5/527.6.abstract[/url] ([url]http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/28/5/527.6.abstract[/url])). Remember to account for the original concentration of dry Copper(II) Hydroxide in the pesticide bag (this is typically 50%, for which you would add 26 oz per Gal of latex paint).

Remember to read all the instructions in the bag when handling pesticides.

This costs about 10x less than buying the Microkote solution which is over-priced and over-marketed (b/c of those extra additive "nutrients") in my opinion.


Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on November 23, 2016, 01:27:49 PM
I've been sick for several months so I fell behind on a lot of my projects but these trees are doing very well with accelerated growth compared to single rootstock trees. I had an experiment where about 7 seedlings were grown in a very small pot with the plan being that I step up the size of the container as the roots filled the pot but I completely neglected this tree and it is still in the same pot but growing great although I'm afraid to see what the roots look like even though I used the root pruning paint. I'll update with pictures when I get a chance.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Solko on November 23, 2016, 01:49:45 PM
I'm sorry to hear you have been sick, Simon. I hope you get well soon. I always enjoy your posts and follow most of your experiments with great interest. I hope it's nothing serious and you get better quickly.
All my best!
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: raimeiken on November 23, 2016, 05:42:02 PM
i love reading your progress on this, especially that we share the same soil conditions. I'd love to get a rootstock that will do very well in our native soil without having to heavily amend and baby the trees here. Would make mango growing here much much easier.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: JF on November 23, 2016, 06:02:33 PM
i love reading your progress on this, especially that we share the same soil conditions. I'd love to get a rootstock that will do very well in our native soil without having to heavily amend and baby the trees here. Would make mango growing here much much easier.

If you lower the ph in your soil and water some varieties on turpentine  work in Socal. 2 year old Coc cream and jehangir on turpentine rootstock.

(https://s21.postimg.cc/fshnteurn/IMG_2467.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fshnteurn/)

(https://s21.postimg.cc/u07ci27gj/IMG_2470.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/u07ci27gj/)
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Mark in Texas on November 24, 2016, 08:19:15 AM
I feel your pain Simon and can relate - I recently had a lower lumbar back surgery with a "recovery" that was hell regarding pinched nerves, and still is, am scheduled to have another surgery with rods/screws installed by a different neurosurgeon, have a farm/house/wife to take care of and tomorrow we open for our Xmas Choose-n-cut season.  ??? I just pull up my big girl panties, suck it up, go reaaallllll slow and gitter done.  Good luck and happy T-D everyone!


(https://s16.postimg.cc/rzjk579yp/Tree_Rows.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rzjk579yp/)
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on March 17, 2017, 07:02:52 PM
As expected, the multiple rootstock trees that were innarched together have not flowered yet. There really is no reason for them to flower as mature scion was not grafted onto them. These seedlings are a combination of poly and Monoembryonic varieties in hopes of better adaptability to various soil conditions and bioburden.
(https://s3.postimg.cc/6gm9759en/IMG_1699.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6gm9759en/)

(https://s3.postimg.cc/qci8moqfz/IMG_1700.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qci8moqfz/)

(https://s3.postimg.cc/hirc5l3hb/IMG_1705.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hirc5l3hb/)

(https://s3.postimg.cc/67ooh7wm7/IMG_1706.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/67ooh7wm7/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on October 14, 2017, 01:11:46 PM
A quick update on this experiment, I created several of these California Super Mango rootstock trees and theses trees are basically like my Double stone graft trees but some have more rootstocks innarched to them and these CSMR trees are Not grafted with mature scions.

At a bit past the 1 year mark, all the trees are still alive and I have not experienced any of the issues that the DSG trees had, namely, low survivability and precocity which stunts the trees because much energy is spent on flowering and fruiting.

Instead, these trees are thriving and all the energy that would have gone into flowering and fruiting is stored in the wood until the climate is appropriately warm enough to push a vegetative flush which is strong and lush.

I was busy with my family and some of these CSMR trees were kept in a tiny container too long and appears to have slightly delayed itís growth. Also, more rootstocks does not appear to be the biggest factor affecting rapid growth. I have some Double rootstock( CSMR, Not grafted with mature scions) trees that are outperforming CSMR trees with 5+ rootstocks. I would hazard to guess however that the CSMR trees with more rootstocks and thusly more genetically diverse, will be more disease resistant although this is all assumption for now. I should note that my CSMR trees with 5+ rootstocks happen to be the trees that were kept in too small a container because I was trying to force them to create numerous hairy feeder roots by confining them in small pots treated with Microkote as you may have read in the early pages of this thread. My mistake was keeping them in super small pots for waaaay too long before up potting.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on October 14, 2017, 01:17:26 PM
Here is a California Super Mango Rootstock tree that is a little over 1 year old and grown in a large pot. It only has two rootstocks and is about 3 ft tall and 3.5 feet wide. It appears to be getting ready for one last push for the year. Notice the strong trunk.
(https://s1.postimg.cc/3g1w953pgb/3_F5_A419_F-208_F-404_D-_B963-0313_F867_BEC4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3g1w953pgb/)

(https://s1.postimg.cc/9jtobl965n/68_C132_A1-47_A2-4609-8_A0_E-_AE5999_B9271_A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9jtobl965n/)

(https://s1.postimg.cc/1o8xe8jhp7/915_AA37_E-859_B-47_CC-_B7_B6-0_A612_CCA6654.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/1o8xe8jhp7/)

(https://s1.postimg.cc/5m1auwuq23/957_AA1_C1-_DB73-4504-_BEAA-8_E7579_F76_AED.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5m1auwuq23/)

(https://s1.postimg.cc/1dm3l2umbv/D4_A54_C1_F-0_FDD-448_A-87_C5-_ABA3_FA471_D9_A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/1dm3l2umbv/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on October 14, 2017, 01:35:15 PM
I forgot to mention that although none of the trees have died, some of the weaker seedling grafts did die back leaving fewer than the original number of rootstocks. This seedling started out with about 6 rootstocks and it only has about 3-4 left but the remaining rootstocks appear to be strong.

When I compare these CSMR seedlings to normal seedlings planted at the same time, the growth of these multiple rootstock trees is at least double and in some cases triple that of a normal seedling.

This is for trees that have been somewhat neglected and only occasionally fertilized.

I performed another experiment where seedling trees were fertilized With smart release fertilizers( Nutricote) combined with other fertilizers and also up potted at the appropriate growth points and these single rootstock trees performed phenomenally.

I was able to get newly planted seedlings to grow close to 2 feet tall in about 4 months.

To be fair to my CSMR trees, they did not get Nutricote during the critical young seedling stage so I can only imagine how large they would be if they did!

I apologize that all this info is jumbled up into a huge mess that only I can decipher but thatís the way my brain works. I am trying to be as open and candid as possible and Iím reporting all failures and successes.

My experiments are dynamic and this makes it difficult to show exact comparisons between strictly controlled test subjects. For example, after I found out how wonderful Nutricote is for my trees, I applied it to all my experiments but different trees got the fertilizers at different stages of growth which can affect the outcome. As I find out what works and what doesnít, I stop using the techniques that I have already proved to have issues and I adapt new techniques that I find promising.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: greenman62 on October 14, 2017, 02:12:59 PM
Simon
this is awsome stuff. so glad you are documenting.
i have been planning on doing something similar
my grafting abilities are not the best, and i am practicing that first.

One thought i had, was that , is it not just the pot, but also the makeup of the soil
and particle size that would determine root branching ?

i remember pulling a papaya out of a container, and the roots looked like my hair.
it was grown with a lot of builders sand (larger particle sand)
ive been trying to use some sand AND perlite in all my mixes since.

also
i actually started some simple experiments with hormones a while back.
you  might want to look into it, in helping the roots branch more early.
what i had noticed was multi-stalks, and lots of aerial branching very early.
(i wasnt looking at roots, i wish i would have though)

Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: greenman62 on October 14, 2017, 02:18:45 PM
another thing that would be very curious to me
is if you use multiple seeds and graft them together...
and... if you dont graft  to the top, but let them grow and fruit
what would it taste like ?
if you grow a Manilla and a Kent and graft them together, what size would the fruit be ?

It may be a fast way of creating a new variety,
 since the seed should hold those genetics (i think?)
and you could grow it out.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on October 14, 2017, 02:50:55 PM
another thing that would be very curious to me
is if you use multiple seeds and graft them together...
and... if you dont graft  to the top, but let them grow and fruit
what would it taste like ?
if you grow a Manilla and a Kent and graft them together, what size would the fruit be ?

It may be a fast way of creating a new variety,
 since the seed should hold those genetics (i think?)
and you could grow it out.

The fruit should not be affected much. The multiple rootstocks will increase vigor and in this manner, the tree will be larger and healthier which in turn may yield larger and sweeter Fruit but the overall flavor of the fruit should not be affected to any great extent.

In experiments with citrus and melons, firmness and Brix were affected. With horizontal gene transfer at the graft site, scions arising from the resulting chimera will have new genetic material but who knows exactly what the new DNA encodes for? If the new genes were expressed in the grafted scion wood, we could see some differences in the new plant but nothing significant has been observed so far.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on October 16, 2017, 12:30:23 AM
Here is a CSMR tree planted into the ground at Spaughís place. Itís about 3-4 feet tall and was planted into the ground about 2 months ago. It is a little over 1 year old.
(https://s1.postimg.cc/2o0nq7uhp7/4_E9575_A8-9660-4662-9683-614_B9_E12_B952.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/2o0nq7uhp7/)

(https://s1.postimg.cc/3r0d13p1a3/D350_AD2_F-8965-48_AB-_B0_D2-18_D92_B266_CCB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3r0d13p1a3/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Mark in Texas on October 16, 2017, 09:32:25 AM
Amazing work Simon!

Are you saying there's some kind of gene, DNA, transfer from the rootstock to the scion?  Wondering if that would be like genotype transfers such as imparting cold hardiness and fruit quality.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on October 16, 2017, 01:38:47 PM
Thereís a lot of articles out there that talk about scion rootstock influences but I believe you are more interested in the lateral gene transfer between plant grafts at the Union such as the case with my CSMR?
Here is one article that explains it a bit. https://m.phys.org/news/2014-06-species-sex.html

By using multiple rootstocks from a diverse genetic pool such as the use of both Polyembryonic( CRFG says polys are resistant to Anthracnose) and Monoembryonic (CRFG says monos are more resistant to Powdery Mildew) seedlings, I hope that the rootstocks that are more adaptable will survive and the rootstocks may even be able to impart resistance to specific bioburdens.

I have a thread on Mango rootstocks that talks more specifically about other Mangifera species that are known to impart benefits. Dr Richard Campbell, Noris Ledesma and Dr Crane would know much more about this subject than myself.

I want everyone to know that what Iím doing is not Science. Iím simply very curious and performing basic experiments, not even really experiments because I donít have real controls, to see what may work for an average backyard gardener. I do keep up with the latest technologies regarding gardening especially as it relates to growing Mango but what Iím trying to come up with is a technique that can be utilized by average gardeners that donít have access to test fields and DNA sequencing technologies.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on November 24, 2017, 08:00:16 PM
I just want to post some pictures to document the growth rate of some of my new experimental seedlings. I want to post images of the seedlings along with the date they were planted into their pots. The date that is on the label is the date that I stuck the seed into the pot.

These experiments are a continuation of my DSG(Double Stone Graft) experiments which failed due to low survivability and multiple issues associated with grafting with mature scions, namely that they flower in about one year from seed sprouting.

From my previous California Super Mango Rootstock experiments, Iíve concluded that two rootstocks is enough to boost the vigor of young plants and this minimizes the use of rootstocks and time it takes to graft. I did notice slightly more vigor on plants with more than two rootstocks but the time and effort is not worth the slight increase in vigor compared to double rootstocks. The difference between the vigor on single vs double rootstocks is dramatic.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on November 24, 2017, 08:09:08 PM
This year, I will be innarching polyembryonic varieties such as Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart with vigorous Puerto Rican Turpentine seedlings from Leo Manuel. Leo was right and these PR seedlings that he recommended to me is one of the most vigorous seedlings I have seen.

They have caught up to and exceeded the growth of all other seeds I planted this year. Here is a picture of Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart,  Valencia Pride, Keitt and several other varieties that are 1-2 months older than the PR Turpentine seedlings but the PR Turpentine seedlings are 2-3 inches taller than all other seedlings.

(https://s8.postimg.cc/47s0jp5gh/47_B3_F6_FD-_E5_C4-4_C62-_B195-_C13_B19_B24_DB5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/47s0jp5gh/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/npmnzocox/54634_E54-_E7_B2-4_FF4-9_A2_C-77_A8_AC42800_C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/npmnzocox/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/v5lxlfxtd/7_B0_D5_C35-4_D43-4_CBC-92_CE-_FEBA7_D14_A324.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/v5lxlfxtd/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/7rdy9jxwh/87_F32_B3_E-12_CD-4_C20-_A8_B8-248_E8_EE8_A45_F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/7rdy9jxwh/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/j3qjrbbq9/B8_C82652-364_A-44_D8-_B5_EB-_C0_A56_C15778_D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/j3qjrbbq9/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/hbxkwffip/B9_C6_BCE3-_FE0_A-42_D6-93_EE-07_AE89418011.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hbxkwffip/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/6p3rqzrxt/DCB66_C39-_AEBF-48_E8-_A1_E4-97059_BDCF439.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6p3rqzrxt/)

(https://s8.postimg.cc/u3br2wufl/EC977_D74-_B9_B8-415_B-8_F4_B-_D1_BD68_D8162_D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/u3br2wufl/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: raimeiken on November 26, 2017, 08:10:22 PM
those look great! how do you germinate the seeds? do you just crack them open and plant?
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: waxy on November 27, 2017, 12:51:00 PM
those look great! how do you germinate the seeds? do you just crack them open and plant?

I usually let the fruit ripen then eat it, once all the flesh is gone I crack the seed open.
The embryo usually starts growing by that time, 99% germination for me.

Sometimes I get a polyembryonic seed and 2 seedlings appear, I just snip off the slower grower.
Allows energy to focus on a single branch for optimal growth.

I've actually shipped out some seeds to several folks on here already rooting not too long ago.
Just full sun and they're trying to reach for the sky.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on November 27, 2017, 03:40:06 PM
I just remove the husk and germinate the embryo with bottom heat around 90-100F to the point the root begins elongation but the stem has not grown yet. Once I see the root, I plant it into pots or grow bags. I only do this in Winter. In Summer, I remove the husk and stick the embryo in pots or raised beds and they germinate when theyíre ready.

It is very difficult to germinate mango seeds in marginal climates without bottom heat. I use a seedling heat mat with a thermostat. I use two mats on to of each other to reach 100F but the temperatures directly above the mat are much lower than the 100F reading.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on December 03, 2017, 09:41:59 PM
Here is the next round of multiple rootstock trees. In case you havenít been following my threads, Iíve made a lot of progress in regards to finding out what does and doesnít work.

For this round of grafts, ive decided to add only one additional rootstock because having more than one additional rootstock only increases the growth by a little and doesnít warrant the time and materials to justify the slight increase in growth.

For the additional rootstock, I chose to use the Puerto Rican Turpentine rootstock suggested to me my Leo Manuel and so far, it is showing exceptional growth compared to all other rootstocks Iíve tested so far.

I am innarching seedlings from top tier polyembryonic varieties such as Orange Sherbet, Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart along with a few Monoembryonic varieties. Iím using these polyembryonic varieties because the clonal nature of the non zygotic seedlings should give me plants nearly identical to the parent variety without inheriting the florigenic hormones circulating in mature scion wood.

Iím avoiding mature scion wood because my DSG( Double Stone Graft) experiments taught me that the cold weather in my marginal climate is too strong a stimulus and will undoubtedly promote flowering even in seedlings within the first winter.

By utilizing top tier polyembryonic seedlings, I can create robust, strong double rootstock trees that grow at an accelerated rate due to having multiple rootstocks and I avoid unnecessary expenditure of energy which is normally wasted by flowering and holding onto fruit. Instead of flowering my CSMR trees have gone into a dormant state in Winter and then flushed with vigor once warm weather arrives. I can imagine that all the energy that would have gone into flowering is now saved up and stored in the tree, potentially allowing the young tree to push one or more additional vegetative flushes.

Here is an Orange Sherbet seedling innarched with one additional PR Turpentine rootstock. I will allow the grafted area to heal over at which point, the callous tissue would have expanded and started to split the parafilm. Once the grafted region has completely healed, I will top the PR Turpentine seedling leaving only the selected seedling with two intact root systems.


(https://s17.postimg.cc/5uporoat7/65_CDBE24-_E1_F2-428_E-91_F8-_C778_A880_CFA5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5uporoat7/)

(https://s17.postimg.cc/bvndoqppn/9_BF869_F9-_C528-4_C6_A-9520-_B49235_F7747_E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bvndoqppn/)
Lemon Zest
(https://s17.postimg.cc/s6nhl34sb/F7_EC3_B84-5659-4_FCF-_AE36-84_A132249_E96.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/s6nhl34sb/)
Sweet Tart
(https://s17.postimg.cc/im3uy82ln/DBA00938-34_B2-4873-_AC54-_CBC48_DDBCA39.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/im3uy82ln/)
Edward Seedling, Edward is a cross between a polyembryonic and Monoembryonic Mango and anecdotal evidence suggests it may have slightly better resistance to both Anthracnose and Powdery Mildew. This seedling will be grafted with a Lemon Zest scion in the future to see if it is able to fruit in locations heavily infested with Powdery Mildew.
(https://s17.postimg.cc/up96lc38r/CC8_B06_A1-_EE9_B-4_E1_D-_B828-75_F8783_A2774.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/up96lc38r/)
Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: FreshOne on March 12, 2018, 06:11:16 PM
Would grafting two 1-year old Lavern manila seedling from HD work?




Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: marklee on March 12, 2018, 09:05:51 PM
Would grafting two 1-year old Lavern manila seedling from HD work?
All the time
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on March 12, 2018, 10:49:33 PM
It should work but it wonít have as much genetic diversity. I like to use one polyembryonic and one Monoembryonic variety.

Also be aware that Lavern may be selling Turpentine rootstock Mango trees soon. I was notified by a friend that visited the nursery.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Mark in Texas on March 13, 2018, 08:54:25 AM
Also be aware that Lavern may be selling Turpentine rootstock Mango trees soon. I was notified by a friend that visited the nursery.

Simon

Hi Simon, what's the problem with Turpentine?
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on March 14, 2018, 10:50:11 PM
Hey Mark, the grafted trees that many of us in SoCal have purchased from Florida have very unfavorable growth habits. They have a horrible issue with overly droopy branches which require extensive staking and many of the varieties that are not considered vigorous grow at an abnormally slow rate and have early lignification of small diameter stems. There is also extensive issues with gummosis and cracking of the bark. When a friend sent out samples to get tested at a lab, it was determined to be Phomopsis affecting his trees.

Early investigation indicated that the Florida trees were grafted onto some sort of Turpentine rootstock. Not all Turpentine rootstocks are bad as you can see from Leo Manuelís huge trees but Leo used Turpentine seedlings.

Here is a post with more information
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.0 (http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.0)

When random Mango seedlings or Lavern Manilla rootstocks are planted next to each other, the random seedlings and Lavern Manilla trees thrive while the Florida rootstock trees decline.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: behlgarden on March 15, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
Simon, difference here could be turpentine adaptability to more water and wet feet compared to dry California weather. Ashok has had some success on this Florida trees with excessive watering.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Brev Grower on March 15, 2018, 11:54:23 AM
Ok, so I have been following along with this interesting experiment and from my understanding from the above articles, it seems that the only place there is genetic diversity is from material (shoots) arising from the graft union? Not from anything above it. Am I understanding this right?
E.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on March 15, 2018, 12:01:15 PM
Behl, that could be one of the factors affecting the growth. We have noticed that vigorous varieties such as Valencia Pride, Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart and several others seem to grow more vigorously here in SoCal but the droopy growth habit remains on many of these varieties.

The Florida Turpentine rootstocks can grow ok as Frank mentioned, if you take special care to ensure the pH of the soil is slightly acidic but this is hard to do in many parts of SoCal where soil pH is generally above 7. With a pH this high, many of the micronutrients are locked and require pH lowering amendments or a heavy layer of mulch which encourages microbial life. The waste, excrement, byproducts, exudates of the microbial life affect the Cation exchange capacity and Anion exchange capacity which allows the trees to uptake more nutrients from the soil.

If one were to utilize soil, water, leaf samples such as what would occur on a large scale agricultural setting, there would probably not be any issues using Florida rootstock. There are tensionometers that can be utilized to tell you when and how much to water and many other technologies that can be utilized to succeed with growing Mango here in SoCal but Iím more focused on helping the average backyard hobbyist gardener succeed with growing Mango here.

The cost and complexity in regards to the above mentioned techniques is enough to scare new would be Mango growers away from this hobby and I have been bringing up the potential issues regarding Florida rootstock trees ( when grown in SoCal) so that others can avoid all the problems that may arise from selecting the less than ideal rootstock.

So far from my observations and back yard experiments, Mango seedlings are the best way to grow Mango trees. Mango seedlings grow with vigor, are much less droopy, do not have issues with pre mature lignification of thin branches and will not be stunted from flowering because they are not grafted with mature scion wood.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on March 15, 2018, 12:26:04 PM
Ok, so I have been following along with this interesting experiment and from my understanding from the above articles, it seems that the only place there is genetic diversity is from material (shoots) arising from the graft union? Not from anything above it. Am I understanding this right?
E.

Brev grower,

Iím not sure I understand your question. If you are referring to a grafted tree, there is no genetic diversity because the tree is grafted, usually with a named cultivar. When someone talks about genetic diversity, they are usually talking about sexual reproduction.

In grafted trees, there may be horizontal gene transfer between the rootstock and scion but that is beyond the scope of what I want to discuss in this thread.

For my California Super Mango rootstock experiments, I am trying to find rootstocks that are very different in the hopes that one rootstock will outperform the other. The two easily distinguishable rootstock out there are Monoembryonic and Polyembryonic varieties. These are two huge bins we are categorizing Mangos into. Each of these bins will have cultivars that are better or worse adapted to specific growing conditions and disease pressures.

Sweet Tart and Lemon Zest are both categorized into the Polyembryonic bin but since Lemon Zest has horrible issues with Powdery Mildew, I would use Sweet Tart over Lemon Zest as the Polyembryonic seedling in my multiple rootstock experiments.

I would do the same thing with Monoembryonic seedlings but because there is a re arrangements of chromosomes in Monoembryonic seedlings due to sexual reproduction, each seedling needs to be treated as a unique individual. For example, you can plant 100 Kent seedlings and all 100 seedlings can have completely different growth habits, resistance to disease and productivity. All 100 seedlings will share the Maternal portion of its genome but the rearrangement of the chromosomes can turn on/off spicific genes or metabolic pathways which can affect all aspects of the resultant seedling.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: Brev Grower on March 15, 2018, 12:54:17 PM
Hey Simon, I was referring to the horizontal gene transfer which the plants seem to be undergoing when they are inarched together as with your double rootstock experiments. One of the articles I was reading made it sound like the horizontal gene transfer ( or mixing of genes to produce a new species) was possible when grafting the two rootstocks together. But I was trying to make sure I was understanding the article correctly in my interpretation. It seems they were saying that gene mixing, asexually, is possible from the graft site of two species inarched together. So, on your DSG mango with one rootstock cut off, would the resulting material above the graft site have chromosomes from both rootstocks or just one? That goes back to my question about whether shoots coming from only the graft site are genetically mixed ( horizontal gene transfer) or if anything above the graft is then genetically manipulated. Again, I am very novice and my interpretation may be totally wrong. Just wondering as this may have implications in the future for mango hybridization, like your experiments...:) Thanks!
E.
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on March 15, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
Hey Brev grower,

The articles that I read explained that there is horizontal gene transfer from the graft sites but I donít know of the implications. I donít know that any of the transferred genes will cause any type of changes in the phenotype of the plant or fruit. This is beyond my knowledge level and Dr Ledesma, Dr Campbell or Dr Crane would probably have more info if you asked them.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: RollingInTheWeeds on April 25, 2018, 02:13:05 PM
Hey Simon, I was referring to the horizontal gene transfer which the plants seem to be undergoing when they are inarched together as with your double rootstock experiments. One of the articles I was reading made it sound like the horizontal gene transfer ( or mixing of genes to produce a new species) was possible when grafting the two rootstocks together. But I was trying to make sure I was understanding the article correctly in my interpretation. It seems they were saying that gene mixing, asexually, is possible from the graft site of two species inarched together. So, on your DSG mango with one rootstock cut off, would the resulting material above the graft site have chromosomes from both rootstocks or just one? That goes back to my question about whether shoots coming from only the graft site are genetically mixed ( horizontal gene transfer) or if anything above the graft is then genetically manipulated. Again, I am very novice and my interpretation may be totally wrong. Just wondering as this may have implications in the future for mango hybridization, like your experiments...:) Thanks!
E.

Hi Brev Grower,
I got confused at the same point.  Without reading the complete original study to see exactly what the scientists did, it's a little unclear; I suspect that what's being hinted at in the summary Simon provided a link to is this: they took small samples of the tissue where the two plants were joined to one another, and (in a lab) cultivated that tissue into new "plantlets."  And those little lab babies had all the genes from both parents.  If that's the case, (and looking at the oak+beech picture at the top of the article as another hint), then the two stems/trunks stay genetically independent.

Simon, in your pictures it looks like where you join two stems one of those two ends up taking over from that point upward, and you snip off the weaker one after a while.  Is that correct?
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on April 25, 2018, 06:53:45 PM
When I innarch the seedlings together, I snip off the top of the seedling that I donít want after the graft has healed over. The remaining seedling with multiple rootstocks will grow over the left over stump leaving a smooth transition.

Simon
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: RollingInTheWeeds on April 26, 2018, 10:45:52 PM
You have a wonderful idea here, Simon.  Thank you so much for sharing it -- the ideas, the pictures, the lessons learned ... all of it.  It's a wealth of information that many of us can benefit from and then share our own evidence and lessons learned.  20 years from now there'll be backyard growers thanking you and others who contribute to the project.  (Of course a lot of us will be dead by then, but that's kind of the way it works, isn't it?)
Title: Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
Post by: simon_grow on April 27, 2018, 12:33:00 AM
Thanks RollingInTheWeeds,

I just hope that the people that really love Mangos and are passionate about growing their own fruit will be able to do so. The California Super Mango Rootstock trees are just for fun and so far they are growing great but for the majority of people in SoCal and elsewhere that live in marginal climates for growing Mango, I recommend they simply plant Polyembryonic seeds from good varieties for best success without the need for grafting.

Direct seeded plants donít have as many issues with over/underwatering that Potted seedlings have and you also avoid the need to transplant the seedling and acclimate it to full sun. The undisturbed taproot on direct seeded Mango trees also seems to help them survive adverse conditions better.

The CSMR plants are growing much faster than my single rootstock plants but Iím running into issues caused by me by not fertilizing adequately and not up potting in a timely manner. I can only imagine how fast they would be growing if I treated them properly.

Simon