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Author Topic: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest  (Read 21542 times)

kumin

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2019, 05:49:47 PM »
Eventually someone might compile a "how-to" manual on growing Citrus in "out of accepted" Citrus hardiness zones. Each success shows us what works and likewise, each failure shows us what not to do.

Dogjamboree

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2019, 12:21:18 AM »
Our winter in Portland was a lot milder than yours from what I've heard. The lowest the local weather stations listed for my zip was 26 degrees one night, but my thermometer said it only got down to 29. We've had low temperatures in the high 20's to low 30's for the last couple of weeks, but in my neighborhood at least we haven't had a single day where the little snow we received in the morning didn't melt by the afternoon. I read a university paper (can't remember where now) which said owari Satsuma are hardy down to the mid to high teens when established - - is this unrealistic? Seeing as we haven't had had a day where the low hit 25 degrees yet I'm curious as to why Satsuma couldn't survive. Not arguing by any means, as I have no idea about any of this, just curious really. As I said in my first post, my plan is to plant a 7' tree in the spring (if I go through with it) so not sure if one summer's growth and root development on such a big tree would qualify as well established or not. Either way, I wouldn't leave it to mother nature and would definitely want to provide some protection for the winter.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2019, 06:26:37 PM »
I read a university paper (can't remember where now) which said owari Satsuma are hardy down to the mid to high teens when established - - is this unrealistic?
In the South, probably yes, but judging by my experience here I think they start developing damage at maybe in the range between 18 to 24 F and in this climate it's very difficult for them to recover.
That's a very rough estimate so don't take those numbers exactly. When they're talking about mid teens, I am assuming those are only for brief intervals, only an hour or two if the temperature just temporarily dips down over the night and later returns to the high 20s the next day.

When we talk about survival, we have to qualify exactly what we mean. I left out two Satsuma seedlings entirely unprotected (except under snow) and they still show signs of life, green at the base, but it's obvious they are damaged to such an extent that they would never be able to recover and grow on their own if left outside.

It's possible a mature Satsuma might be able to survive in a very optimal microclimate in Seattle though, if it was the right spot.
(especially the more urban areas near the water, up against a South-facing wall)

Our winter in Portland was a lot milder than yours from what I've heard.
Yes, the winds originating from the Northeast bringing in cold air did not reach all the way down to Portland.
That's not always the case however, probably most years Portland gets just a tiny bit colder than Olympia, because it's further inland. Sometimes Portland can have hail. However, the urban core of Portland is a bit more mild, maybe 8b instead of 8a.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 06:34:30 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2019, 08:35:07 PM »
Here's a picture of one of the small Keraji seedlings. As you can see, most of the top died back, but there's still one green leaf at the bottom that looks like it will survive.


This tiny seedling was covered by a small plastic container, and buried in snow during the coldest part of the Winter.

Ilya11

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2019, 04:23:04 AM »
I'm curious as to why Satsuma couldn't survive.

I am quite sure that Keraji and most probably early Satsumas are the long term hardy in your area.
But for this they should be high grafted ( more that 50 cm) on poncirus rootstock , preferably grown in situ to preserve a long taproot.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 04:24:59 AM by Ilya11 »
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2019, 06:00:28 AM »
I am quite sure that Keraji and most probably early Satsumas are the long term hardy in your area.
But for this they should be high grafted ( more that 50 cm) on poncirus rootstock , preferably grown in situ to preserve a long taproot.
I might try grafting onto TaiTri, when the seedlings eventually get bigger.

I'm pretty sure Satsuma is marginal here, the one I have that was covered is grafted onto dwarf rootstock so I'm pretty sure that's poncirus.
The Keraji seedlings were both grown from seed and on their own roots, obviously.

Admittingly the Satsuma wasn't the biggest or mature, and the Keraji seedlings were certainly small seedlings, but part of that is demonstratrative of the lack of growth from the short growing season in this climate.

Ilya, I believe the climate here is quite similar to France, although a bit more continental, the summers can sometimes get very hot, and the Winters, although for the most part relatively mild, can sometimes have bouts of snow and an occasional sudden temperature drop over the night. This Winter was a bit unusual. Most years the snow doesn't stick to the ground very often, but this year was virtually a snow storm for a week. Branches in the trees broke from all the snow.

Tonight, by the way, is the last night temperatures will dip below the freezing point this year.

Actually, I'm looking at the temperatures right now and it looks like France is just a tiny bit warmer than here this week. The temperatures are a bit more unstable here. Part of that may be because it has been fairly dry here and where you are it's been getting a lot of rain. (Rain releases heat as the water vapor condenses, so rainy days in the cold season will not be quite as cold)


« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 06:23:34 AM by SoCal2warm »

jim VH

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2019, 11:38:58 AM »
The temperatures in the Portland Metro area are quite location specific, depending upon proximity to the Columbia River Gorge, location in a cold air pocket such as a valley or bowl, and proximity to the urban heat island that is downtown Portland.
     At my location in Vancouver Wa., across the Columbia River from Portland, the winter low was 20F (-6.7C)just a week ago.  The Portland airport was 26F that same day.  Outlying areas like Battleground saw upper teens.  Olympia can be colder than most of Puget Sound because it is in a bit cold pocket bowl.

As far as Satsumas- My experience is that they can survive very brief exposures to mid-upper teens, as long as the temperature rises rapidly to above freezing a few hours later.  Prolonged exposures- ten hours or more- and daytime temperatures that stay below freezing for 48 hours or more will kill all Satsumas at temperatures below 20F, maybe even a bit above.  The Brown Select was the hardiest of those Satsumas I chose to sacrifice to the frost gods.  It almost survived 18F(-7.8C) during a 48 hour period were the temperature never rose above freezing, putting out one green shoot before it withered and died completely.  The least hardy was a Kishu Mandarin, which succumbed to  8 hours close to 23F(-5c).

I should add that all of these were on Flying Dragon rootstock, so it was not a case of rootstock death
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 11:50:44 AM by jim VH »

Ilya11

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2019, 12:55:11 PM »
I'm pretty sure Satsuma is marginal here, the one I have that was covered is grafted onto dwarf rootstock so I'm pretty sure that's poncirus.
The Keraji seedlings were both grown from seed and on their own roots, obviously.

Admittingly the Satsuma wasn't the biggest or mature, and the Keraji seedlings were certainly small seedlings, but part of that is demonstratrative of the lack of growth from the short growing season in this climate.

Many years ago I was like you, trying to "acclimatize" the small seedlings in the ground, but found that this is a dead end. The approach is quite good for selection among hybrid hardy seedlings, but small conventional citrus  will not survive long term under zone 8 conditions.
It is much more efficient to high graft them on poncirus or citrumelo.

Ilya, I believe the climate here is quite similar to France, although a bit more continental, the summers can sometimes get very hot, and the Winters, although for the most part relatively mild, can sometimes have bouts of snow and an occasional sudden temperature drop over the night. This Winter was a bit unusual. Most years the snow doesn't stick to the ground very often, but this year was virtually a snow storm for a week. Branches in the trees broke from all the snow.
Where I live ( Paris region 48 32′) the climate is remarkably close to that of Seattle (47 36′)
Satsumas are marginal, but possible to cultivate with some fleece protection.
We also had a heavy snow this year, but spring comes very early, ponciruses already  start to push buds.

On another hand, in Portland (45 31′ ) meteorological conditions are very close to those of Bergerac ( 44 51′).
Sylvain who lives there, has a remarkably large collection of citruses, including satsumas in his garden. They are fruiting and giving a rich harvest.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

PDXIan

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2019, 03:29:21 PM »
The temperatures in the Portland Metro area are quite location specific, depending upon proximity to the Columbia River Gorge, location in a cold air pocket such as a valley or bowl, and proximity to the urban heat island that is downtown Portland.
     At my location in Vancouver Wa., across the Columbia River from Portland, the winter low was 20F (-6.7C)just a week ago.  The Portland airport was 26F that same day.  Outlying areas like Battleground saw upper teens.  Olympia can be colder than most of Puget Sound because it is in a bit cold pocket bowl.

As far as Satsumas- My experience is that they can survive very brief exposures to mid-upper teens, as long as the temperature rises rapidly to above freezing a few hours later.  Prolonged exposures- ten hours or more- and daytime temperatures that stay below freezing for 48 hours or more will kill all Satsumas at temperatures below 20F, maybe even a bit above.  The Brown Select was the hardiest of those Satsumas I chose to sacrifice to the frost gods.  It almost survived 18F(-7.8C) during a 48 hour period were the temperature never rose above freezing, putting out one green shoot before it withered and died completely.  The least hardy was a Kishu Mandarin, which succumbed to  8 hours close to 23F(-5c).

I should add that all of these were on Flying Dragon rootstock, so it was not a case of rootstock death

I'm in inner SE Portland. About 7 miles south of the airport. This past week my low was 29F, when the airport was 26F. But my greenhouse on the southern side of my house only got down to 33. The only tree that has lost leaves this winter is a Buddha Hand. Just about everything is flowering now. 

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2019, 09:56:36 PM »
Looks like the little Yuzu seedling is not doing so well:



jim VH

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2019, 10:44:32 AM »

I'm in inner SE Portland. About 7 miles south of the airport. This past week my low was 29F, when the airport was 26F. But my greenhouse on the southern side of my house only got down to 33. The only tree that has lost leaves this winter is a Buddha Hand. Just about everything is flowering now.

Wow!  That greenhouse makes quite a bit of difference on the bloom time.  All my citrus are outdoors in the ground with no supplemental heat.  Except for the Flying Dragon, they usually don't bloom until sometime in May.  Despite this lateness, the sourer fruit- Yuzus, Sudachis, etc. are ripe -or ripe enough anyway- before the first hard freezes of Autumn.   

I don't protect the hardier citruses, but I do put up up temporary shelters with thermostat contolled Christmas tree lights for heat for the Satsumas ,which are more tender and whose fruit ripen later.  These shelters are normally left open  on the south to provide air circulation.  I only close them up and turn on the lights if either there are fruit on the tree and the temperature drops below 30F, or else if there are no fruit but the temperature looks to drop below 20F for an extended time.

I've already taken the shelters down for the year, but perhaps next year I should try leaving one up and let the sun heat it  to see if there is a signifigantly earlier bloom time.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #111 on: March 16, 2019, 12:34:08 AM »
I just talked to a chef in Seattle and he said he has a Yuzu tree growing outside in a (very large) container that he never brings inside. He said it was 7 years old and has never fruited yet.
He lives in Ballard. He also says at his other restaurant (he used to have) he had two other Yuzu trees growing in a trough outside for several years. They never fruited either.

lebmung

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #112 on: March 17, 2019, 08:32:55 PM »
I just talked to a chef in Seattle and he said he has a Yuzu tree growing outside in a (very large) container that he never brings inside. He said it was 7 years old and has never fruited yet.
He lives in Ballard. He also says at his other restaurant (he used to have) he had two other Yuzu trees growing in a trough outside for several years. They never fruited either.

Yuzu might take 15 years to fruit from seed, a grafted tree would flower in less than 2 years.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #113 on: March 17, 2019, 08:37:38 PM »
Yuzu might take 15 years to fruit from seed, a grafted tree would flower in less than 2 years.
I disagree. Yuzu has a somewhat dwarfed growing habit, so I would estimate it might take 7-14 years in this climate (assuming no protection, and not grafted).
Grafted tree might still take a bit longer than 3 or 4 years here.

That's just from instinctual knowledge and intuition though, not direct actual experience.

jim VH

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #114 on: March 18, 2019, 11:17:03 AM »
FWIW, my grafted Yuzu from One Green World took six years before it bore fruit.  It's possible their mother tree is immature, maybe grown from seed.  No other tree I've purchased from them showed any significant delay in fruiting, however.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #115 on: March 18, 2019, 11:39:00 AM »
It's possible their mother tree is immature, maybe grown from seed.
Very few nurseries grow from seed. Unless it's a very difficult to find variety and seed is the only thing they were able to obtain.
It takes a lot of effort, a different type of expertise, a special setup, and certainly more time to grow from seed.

However for me I've become very proficient at it, and for me it's much easier to grow from seed, especially since it takes up much less space and I can grow it inside.

FWIW, my grafted Yuzu from One Green World took six years before it bore fruit.
Interesting that your grafted Yuzu took 6 years to fruit in Vancouver, WA.
Or rather I should say informative.

I donated a Keraji to them, so hopefully that variety may be available at some point in the future.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 11:43:17 AM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #116 on: March 18, 2019, 12:31:46 PM »
Here's the other Keraji



It's still covered. If it doesn't survive, it will be more due to lack of vigor rather than from obvious damage.

March 18

maesy

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #117 on: March 18, 2019, 01:32:36 PM »
What were your lows?

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #118 on: March 18, 2019, 03:06:11 PM »
What were your lows?
That's hard to say.

Just a couple of hours before the forecast called it was going down to 12 F, I measured 24 F right outside the doorstep.
The forecast said it would dip down to 12 F at 6:30 in the morning and I measured the temperature at 3:20 just before that.
I also later measured the temperature further out in the back yard at night a few days later and the temperature measurement was only 2 degrees higher than what the forecast stated it was at that exact time.

These Keraji seedlings were also covered with small clear plastic containers, and covered in some snow on top of that, so certainly there must have been a small insulating effect. On that night I also put large paper bags to cover them on top of that, with a gallon container of water inside each bag. (This was before it snowed further and the plants were completely buried)

So if I had to estimate, I would guess these plants probably did not experience a low below 16 F.

maesy

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #119 on: March 18, 2019, 03:25:57 PM »
What about the daytime highs? Did it rise above freezing those days? Or did you have prolonged frost for several days?

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #120 on: March 18, 2019, 04:58:31 PM »
What about the daytime highs? Did it rise above freezing those days? Or did you have prolonged frost for several days?
The days remained constantly cold, only a little above freezing, but the temperatures did not dip below freezing for more than 4 or 5 hours at a time, and most of the time they were not that far below freezing.
I think the hardier citrus would have done perfectly fine if they had only gone through December and January, but it was the cold that came along with snow in February that caused damage.

lebmung

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #121 on: March 18, 2019, 05:37:46 PM »
Did you mulch the plants? From what I know what happens it that when the soil is frozen the plant can't get water anymore and the light through transpiration kills the plant. So the plant needs to be really established with a tap root down 50-80 cm to extract water. One way you can to that is to grow the seeds in a long container like the one used for mango. From what I've seen, then the citrus starts to grow it sends a long tap root. In a not so deep container the tap root starts to go round and halts the growth.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #122 on: March 21, 2019, 05:14:56 PM »
A lot of the weather in the PNW depends on which way the wind is blowing.

Most commonly the wind comes from the West.
This is because of the Westerlies, due to the Coriolis effect diverting North moving winds towards the West. Since Earth is spinning towards the East and since the regions closer towards the poles are moving at a slower speed than the equator, that means winds moving from closer near the equator towards further towards the poles will be deflected apparently geographically East. This has everything to do with the curvature of the Earth, since the distance between longitude is less as one moves higher in latitude.
When the wind is blowing from the West it brings moist cool air from over the ocean. This often means overcast skies.
 In the Summer it helps bring cool air. (And this cooling effect does not change between day and night)
In the Winter this cool air happens to still be warmer relative to what the temperatures would otherwise be, so it helps prevent the temperatures from going below freezing. All the moisture brought in by the air originating from the ocean also condenses into rain, mostly drizzle, helping to release more heat (since water vapor releases heat as it condenses into liquid). The overcast skies from all the cloud cover reflects back thermal radiation from the ground, acting as a sort of thermal blanket at night. All these effects help prevent the temperatures in Winter from dropping too low.

If the winds are blowing in from the Northeast during Winter, it can get very cold and there can be snow.

If the winds are blowing from the East during the Summer, it can get very hot, and there will be clear skies regardless of the season.



This is why most of the trees in this area are evergreen. Cool air coming in from the ocean means most of the rain is going to come when the temperature on land is colder than the cool air in the ocean, so that mostly means the Winter half of the year. During the Summer the needle-like leaves allow the cooler air to pass over them so they do not heat up too much in the sun which would cause excessive water losses to evaporation. Since the air is cooler and moving into a warmer area, it will not release any rain.

Sylvain

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2019, 08:21:43 AM »
 ???!!!

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #124 on: March 25, 2019, 03:35:43 PM »
Ten Degree Tangerine

Doesn't have a lot of leaves left but the trunk still looks green.
Any damage should have become evident by now. (Although the citrus has still not put on any growth)

Had things warm up a few days ago. Quince and cherry trees starting to leaf and bud out.

 

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