Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: jaboticabas and zone 9a  (Read 6836 times)

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
jaboticabas and zone 9a
« on: May 13, 2014, 09:41:39 PM »
Hi!

What about jaboticabas in zone 9a?

I think with some protection until they are mature they will do it fine, then they could live without anti-frost protection. ¿?

I mean survive frost of -6 ºC (4 per winter) being at the shelter of some larger tree and / or using near ponds of water and / or large rocks heated by the sun, etc;

Or even an adult jabo, say, over 10 years old could survive unaided in an open field in a 9a hardiness zone?

Regards

Luisport

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2995
  • New in tropical fruit growing!
    • Fatima, Portugal
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 05:56:35 AM »
Hi!

What about jaboticabas in zone 9a?

I think with some protection until they are mature they will do it fine, then they could live without anti-frost protection. ¿?

I mean survive frost of -6 ºC (4 per winter) being at the shelter of some larger tree and / or using near ponds of water and / or large rocks heated by the sun, etc;

Or even an adult jabo, say, over 10 years old could survive unaided in an open field in a 9a hardiness zone?

Regards
Hi my friend! I know some jaboticaba trees in north of Portugal in 9a and b zones, that go full of fruits in summer!  :P

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 11:31:31 AM »
Great Luis, do you have more data, I mean, what kind of species/vars, sabara? cauliflora? etc., they just produce in summer? what about sizes/years of the trees, etc.

in winter does they loose all their leaves? how is the cold damage?

Luisport

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2995
  • New in tropical fruit growing!
    • Fatima, Portugal
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 11:38:43 AM »
Great Luis, do you have more data, I mean, what kind of species/vars, sabara? cauliflora? etc., they just produce in summer? what about sizes/years of the trees, etc.

in winter does they loose all their leaves? how is the cold damage?
Hi! I think it's Sabará... they loose the leaves, but it seams cold is a stimulant to biger crops... but don't take my view, this is not a certain thing.  ;D  My litle jaboticabas don't loose leaves this winter and are growing greatly! They are beautiful, but too litle to fruit... i have a jaboticaba de cabinho and a hibrid red one. 

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 12:27:52 PM »
Great Luis, do you have more data, I mean, what kind of species/vars, sabara? cauliflora? etc., they just produce in summer? what about sizes/years of the trees, etc.

in winter does they loose all their leaves? how is the cold damage?
Hi! I think it's Sabará... they loose the leaves, but it seams cold is a stimulant to biger crops... but don't take my view, this is not a certain thing.  ;D  My litle jaboticabas don't loose leaves this winter and are growing greatly! They are beautiful, but too litle to fruit... i have a jaboticaba de cabinho and a hibrid red one.


Ok, how are your frosts? and the frost of the other bigger ones?

Luisport

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2995
  • New in tropical fruit growing!
    • Fatima, Portugal
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 01:08:07 PM »
Great Luis, do you have more data, I mean, what kind of species/vars, sabara? cauliflora? etc., they just produce in summer? what about sizes/years of the trees, etc.

in winter does they loose all their leaves? how is the cold damage?
Hi! I think it's Sabará... they loose the leaves, but it seams cold is a stimulant to biger crops... but don't take my view, this is not a certain thing.  ;D  My litle jaboticabas don't loose leaves this winter and are growing greatly! They are beautiful, but too litle to fruit... i have a jaboticaba de cabinho and a hibrid red one.


Ok, how are your frosts? and the frost of the other bigger ones?
Well my frosts are not so hard, but the one in Braga i never see... i know she exists... in Braga there are big cold.

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 08:42:02 PM »
So, for now we dont have scientifically proven or detailed and accurate information on jaboticaba in the 9a hardiness zone

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12380
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 09:21:53 PM »
So, for now we dont have scientifically proven or detailed and accurate information on jaboticaba in the 9a hardiness zone

there are many species of myrciaria that are called jaboticaba, and they have different sensitivities.

generally speaking they can handle a freeze easily, but it's when temps go below 28F, and 25F, that you start to see real problems...there have been reports of mature M. jaboticaba (Sabara) trees enduring short drops of 21F and 19F...but this is by no means typical.



huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2014, 09:33:25 AM »
So, do you know about planted jabos, more than ten years old that died in zone 9a because of a frost?

Tropheus76

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 800
    • East Orlando 9B
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2014, 09:59:33 AM »
I am in a cool microclimate of 9B. We usually are about 10 degrees cooler than neighboring Orlando in the winter. I have two Jabo's and they are planted about fifteen feet from each other and have been for the last couple years. I had no trouble in the brief frosts we had this past winter, one frost they were protected, the other was a surprise frost where they were predicting upper 30s and we got well below that. The year prior we had a few more and I didn't do anything to protect them. One went through with flying colors and didn't even have leaf damage. The other got hit hard by one, and lost all leaves the next one. But it came back with new leaves in spring.

I never understood the 9a/9b and which one is cooler than the other. I personally think my microclimate is an 8 but who am I to argue. I know mangos, papayas, and starfruit do not last the winter in my area, but the Jabo's do.

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2014, 01:51:49 PM »
Hi Tropheus76, so, without damage to the branches?

9a is cooler than 9b, how old are your jabos?

This seems to be a good map:



but it's old... the zone 9 moved to the south later

« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 01:54:57 PM by huertasurbanas »

Tropheus76

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 800
    • East Orlando 9B
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2014, 02:05:38 PM »
No damage. Just defoliation followed b y new leaves on the same branches in warmer weather. As far as mangos and starfruit, the mangos came back from the rootstock below the graft. Nothing came back from the starfruit. The trees are two years old now. 

That's a different map than others I have seen. Most I have seen have 9b along the coast and almost to Orlando inland with Orlando being 9 north and across from Daytona being 8. Wonder if its a new update.

Miguel.pt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
    • Portugal, Northwest, climate 9a/9b
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2014, 04:48:23 PM »
Hello Marcos
Here are my two cents on this discussion:

I know of several Jabos growing well outside here in Portugal but all those I'm aware of are on a 9b climate.
At mine 9a place I've already killed one 4 or 5 years old Sabará outside... but the truth is that I've negleted it so much that I'm not totaly sure if it died from cold during the winter... or from thirst during the summer (???)

But one year I've left one pot outside with 3 small plants of Jaboticaba-de-cabinho (Myrciaria trunciflora) and all survided the winter outside... then I've seem that Helton says this species can survive -5 degrees Celsius.

So I intend to try outside a bigger Myrciaria trunciflora I have on my GH now... I will report latter on results... good or bad.
I believe this Jaboticaba-de-Cabinho will be our best bet on our 9a climate... but it seems to be also one of those that can take longer to fruit.

I've seen that Helton mentions a totally decidous Jabo that he calls "Jaboticaba apimentada" (Hot-spicy jabo) or something like that... I wish I could try that one someday!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 03:02:09 AM by Miguel.pt »

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12380
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2014, 05:02:23 PM »
from least cold sensitive to most...species of same color have about the same cold tolerance..also tried to list them in order, from least sensitive to most...so the lower down the list, the more sensitive it will be.

approx 25F critical when mature
M. jaboticaba
M. cauliflora
M. trunciflora
M. cauliflora hybrid (Red Jabo)
M. spirito-santensis (Grimal)


approx 27F critical when mature
P. edulis
P. rivularis
M. strigipes
M. coronota (many varieties, with different sensitivities...var restinga seems sensitive!)
M. phitrantha
M. aureana
M. grandifolia
M. glazioviana


approx 28F critical when mature
M. vexator
M. dubia


I have no experience with M. tenella, but I know it is one of the most cold hearty...
also have no experience with M. oblongata, but I believe it is quite cold tolerant...somewhere between M. jaboticaba, and M. coronata.

I also believe M. floribunda is also quite cold tolarant, but have not personal experience.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 05:05:46 PM by ASaffron »

Miguel.pt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
    • Portugal, Northwest, climate 9a/9b
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2014, 05:26:06 PM »
I've remembered now that I have another one here that Helton says can support -6 degrees Celsius.

I think it is the "Cambui amarelo" (Myrciaria cuspidata?)... but not totally sure because it did not fruited yet.... someday I will try one of these outside too.

Marcos, the South Brasilian / Uruguayan species will be our best bets for sure

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2014, 10:12:28 PM »
Hi Miguel, all this information is valuable, thanks. Then the Jaboticaba who died was young, 4 or 5 years does not produce a very high tree or a very thick trunk.

Also, we dont know why did it died, and I guess it had no frost protection at all.

Small Myrciaria trunciflora surviving -5º C/23ºF (or less, as you can get -6ºC/21ºF  there) would be great!

Jaboticaba apimentada sounds good too! maybe it resists more than -7º C/19ºF? would be great

Please take care of this bigger M. truncifolia in your GH, will you cold acclimate it? see: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=10481.0

Didnt knew MYRCIARIA DELICATULA (http://www.colecionandofrutas.org/myrciariadelicatula.htm), it seems very tasty too, sweeter than uvaia+araza

"Marcos, the South Brasilian / Uruguayan species will be our best bets for sure", yes, m. sabara grows in the argentinian north, my sabaras are from Paraguay.

Adam: "I have no experience with M. tenella, but I know it is one of the most cold hearty", for sure it should be! some months ago I was looking for jabos from Uruguay, and it's maybe the only one that grows there in the wild (http://datos.sndb.mincyt.gov.ar/portal/occurrences/992459/).

Your list is very very useful, thanks! maybe we should add the above mentioned species (and I think rivularis should be tougher)

approx 25F critical when mature
M. jaboticaba
M. cauliflora
M. trunciflora
M. cauliflora hybrid (Red Jabo)
M. spirito-santensis (Grimal)

approx 27F critical when mature
P. edulis
P. rivularis
M. strigipes
M. coronota (many varieties, with different sensitivities...var restinga seems sensitive!)
M. phitrantha
M. aureana
M. grandifolia
M. glazioviana

approx 28F critical when mature
M. vexator
M. dubia
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 10:55:36 PM by huertasurbanas »

Tomas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • USA, Virginia - 7a
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 10:39:32 PM »
Thanks Adam for the list of jaboticabas with temperature hardiness. That's a very good list to keep.

Tomas

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2014, 11:43:25 AM »
Thanks Adam for the list of jaboticabas with temperature hardiness. That's a very good list to keep.

Tomas


Yes, this is critical info, we should improve it in the next years!

Miguel.pt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 397
    • Portugal, Northwest, climate 9a/9b
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2014, 03:09:55 AM »
Marcos,

I said M.cuspidata... not M. delicatula... but the truth is that I just don't know which one I have here and from the leaf shape I think is the M. cuspidata

Someday I will try a P.rivularis outside too... this species is from south Brasil so I have high hopes on this one too for 9a.

Take care
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 02:08:32 PM by Miguel.pt »

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2014, 04:55:42 PM »
Marcos,

I said M.cuspidata... not M. delicatula... but the truth is that I just don't know which one I have here and from the leaf shape I think is the M. cuspidata

Someday I will try a P.rivularis outside too... this species is from south Brasil so I have high hopes on this one too fro 9a.

Take care


Ah: http://www.colecionandofrutas.org/myrciariacuspidata.htm
"Planta rústica e bastante adaptável e que resiste a baixas temperaturas (até – 6 graus)" and maybe less...

plinia rivularis looks so good! I think I can get some trees too, keep us posted!

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2625
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 10:08:17 PM »
So, for now, we know that the most cold hardy ones are:

Myrciaria trunciflora
M.cuspidata
Jaboticaba apimentada
m. delicatula
m. tenella
plinia rivularis

Do you know some other cold hardy (less than 25º F) jabo?

Anyway, I think (as some people told) that m. jaboticaba can survive in a 9a zone if -maybe- more than 15 years old or so.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 10:25:37 PM by huertasurbanas »

Mango Stein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 285
  • Red Light Zone 10b
    • Australia
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2015, 10:29:55 AM »
Adam,
What do you mean by 'critical temperature'? Is that the point at which a mature tree will die or just when it will really start to suffer/lose leaves and stems?
There's no such thing as "ultra tropical"

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12380
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2015, 01:16:00 PM »
Adam,
What do you mean by 'critical temperature'? Is that the point at which a mature tree will die or just when it will really start to suffer/lose leaves and stems?

Mango Stein,

critical temp is one that may cause fatal harm, but doesn't mean it will definitely kill the tree.

looking back at my ranking of Myrciaria/Plinia cold sensitivity, it needs to be revised!  there's some info on there that's not quite accurate!

Plinia edulis can take more cold than I gave it credit for, I believe the critical temp is closer to 25F....and M. trunciflora is one of the most cold tolerant, supposedly being able to withstand brief exposure to temps around 22F...

and there are still more corrections that need to be made...


Solko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
  • Zone 8b-9a
    • Europe
    • View Profile
    • Visual Art
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2016, 09:48:50 AM »
I would love to know more about the M. Trunciflora varieties.
I  have killed so many Jabo's in their indoor seedling stages already, that I was a bit turned away from Jaboticaba's. I figured they are just too delicate to grow. But now that I learned that in the south of Brasil and north of Argentina, they mainly grow named varieties of M. Trunciflora, I think it might be worth trying to find the cold hardiest variety again. Some of my small Red ones are outside now, taking some regular -2 C frosts and looking pretty good.

Luis, or Miguel, do you have any more precise information on this legendary Jaboticaba in Braga, the north of Portugal? If this one is for real, it is probably the most northern Jaboticaba, grown outside in Europe. I would love to check this out on my next trip to Portugal, so if you have any concrete information, please let me know.


Luisport

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2995
  • New in tropical fruit growing!
    • Fatima, Portugal
    • View Profile
Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2016, 10:16:29 AM »
I would love to know more about the M. Trunciflora varieties.
I  have killed so many Jabo's in their indoor seedling stages already, that I was a bit turned away from Jaboticaba's. I figured they are just too delicate to grow. But now that I learned that in the south of Brasil and north of Argentina, they mainly grow named varieties of M. Trunciflora, I think it might be worth trying to find the cold hardiest variety again. Some of my small Red ones are outside now, taking some regular -2 C frosts and looking pretty good.

Luis, or Miguel, do you have any more precise information on this legendary Jaboticaba in Braga, the north of Portugal? If this one is for real, it is probably the most northern Jaboticaba, grown outside in Europe. I would love to check this out on my next trip to Portugal, so if you have any concrete information, please let me know.
Hi! Yes it's true, i saw photos... this jaboticaba it's in Felipe house in Braga... You can contact him here: https://www.facebook.com/SitioDasFrutasRaras

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers