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Author Topic: jaboticabas and zone 9a  (Read 6834 times)

huertasurbanas

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jaboticabas and zone 9a
« on: May 13, 2014, 09:41:39 PM »
Hi!

What about jaboticabas in zone 9a?

I think with some protection until they are mature they will do it fine, then they could live without anti-frost protection. ¿?

I mean survive frost of -6 ºC (4 per winter) being at the shelter of some larger tree and / or using near ponds of water and / or large rocks heated by the sun, etc;

Or even an adult jabo, say, over 10 years old could survive unaided in an open field in a 9a hardiness zone?

Regards

Luisport

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 05:56:35 AM »
Hi!

What about jaboticabas in zone 9a?

I think with some protection until they are mature they will do it fine, then they could live without anti-frost protection. ¿?

I mean survive frost of -6 ºC (4 per winter) being at the shelter of some larger tree and / or using near ponds of water and / or large rocks heated by the sun, etc;

Or even an adult jabo, say, over 10 years old could survive unaided in an open field in a 9a hardiness zone?

Regards
Hi my friend! I know some jaboticaba trees in north of Portugal in 9a and b zones, that go full of fruits in summer!  :P

huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 11:31:31 AM »
Great Luis, do you have more data, I mean, what kind of species/vars, sabara? cauliflora? etc., they just produce in summer? what about sizes/years of the trees, etc.

in winter does they loose all their leaves? how is the cold damage?

Luisport

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 11:38:43 AM »
Great Luis, do you have more data, I mean, what kind of species/vars, sabara? cauliflora? etc., they just produce in summer? what about sizes/years of the trees, etc.

in winter does they loose all their leaves? how is the cold damage?
Hi! I think it's Sabará... they loose the leaves, but it seams cold is a stimulant to biger crops... but don't take my view, this is not a certain thing.  ;D  My litle jaboticabas don't loose leaves this winter and are growing greatly! They are beautiful, but too litle to fruit... i have a jaboticaba de cabinho and a hibrid red one. 

huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 12:27:52 PM »
Great Luis, do you have more data, I mean, what kind of species/vars, sabara? cauliflora? etc., they just produce in summer? what about sizes/years of the trees, etc.

in winter does they loose all their leaves? how is the cold damage?
Hi! I think it's Sabará... they loose the leaves, but it seams cold is a stimulant to biger crops... but don't take my view, this is not a certain thing.  ;D  My litle jaboticabas don't loose leaves this winter and are growing greatly! They are beautiful, but too litle to fruit... i have a jaboticaba de cabinho and a hibrid red one.


Ok, how are your frosts? and the frost of the other bigger ones?

Luisport

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 01:08:07 PM »
Great Luis, do you have more data, I mean, what kind of species/vars, sabara? cauliflora? etc., they just produce in summer? what about sizes/years of the trees, etc.

in winter does they loose all their leaves? how is the cold damage?
Hi! I think it's Sabará... they loose the leaves, but it seams cold is a stimulant to biger crops... but don't take my view, this is not a certain thing.  ;D  My litle jaboticabas don't loose leaves this winter and are growing greatly! They are beautiful, but too litle to fruit... i have a jaboticaba de cabinho and a hibrid red one.


Ok, how are your frosts? and the frost of the other bigger ones?
Well my frosts are not so hard, but the one in Braga i never see... i know she exists... in Braga there are big cold.

huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 08:42:02 PM »
So, for now we dont have scientifically proven or detailed and accurate information on jaboticaba in the 9a hardiness zone

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 09:21:53 PM »
So, for now we dont have scientifically proven or detailed and accurate information on jaboticaba in the 9a hardiness zone

there are many species of myrciaria that are called jaboticaba, and they have different sensitivities.

generally speaking they can handle a freeze easily, but it's when temps go below 28F, and 25F, that you start to see real problems...there have been reports of mature M. jaboticaba (Sabara) trees enduring short drops of 21F and 19F...but this is by no means typical.



huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2014, 09:33:25 AM »
So, do you know about planted jabos, more than ten years old that died in zone 9a because of a frost?

Tropheus76

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2014, 09:59:33 AM »
I am in a cool microclimate of 9B. We usually are about 10 degrees cooler than neighboring Orlando in the winter. I have two Jabo's and they are planted about fifteen feet from each other and have been for the last couple years. I had no trouble in the brief frosts we had this past winter, one frost they were protected, the other was a surprise frost where they were predicting upper 30s and we got well below that. The year prior we had a few more and I didn't do anything to protect them. One went through with flying colors and didn't even have leaf damage. The other got hit hard by one, and lost all leaves the next one. But it came back with new leaves in spring.

I never understood the 9a/9b and which one is cooler than the other. I personally think my microclimate is an 8 but who am I to argue. I know mangos, papayas, and starfruit do not last the winter in my area, but the Jabo's do.

huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2014, 01:51:49 PM »
Hi Tropheus76, so, without damage to the branches?

9a is cooler than 9b, how old are your jabos?

This seems to be a good map:



but it's old... the zone 9 moved to the south later

« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 01:54:57 PM by huertasurbanas »

Tropheus76

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2014, 02:05:38 PM »
No damage. Just defoliation followed b y new leaves on the same branches in warmer weather. As far as mangos and starfruit, the mangos came back from the rootstock below the graft. Nothing came back from the starfruit. The trees are two years old now. 

That's a different map than others I have seen. Most I have seen have 9b along the coast and almost to Orlando inland with Orlando being 9 north and across from Daytona being 8. Wonder if its a new update.

Miguel.pt

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2014, 04:48:23 PM »
Hello Marcos
Here are my two cents on this discussion:

I know of several Jabos growing well outside here in Portugal but all those I'm aware of are on a 9b climate.
At mine 9a place I've already killed one 4 or 5 years old Sabará outside... but the truth is that I've negleted it so much that I'm not totaly sure if it died from cold during the winter... or from thirst during the summer (???)

But one year I've left one pot outside with 3 small plants of Jaboticaba-de-cabinho (Myrciaria trunciflora) and all survided the winter outside... then I've seem that Helton says this species can survive -5 degrees Celsius.

So I intend to try outside a bigger Myrciaria trunciflora I have on my GH now... I will report latter on results... good or bad.
I believe this Jaboticaba-de-Cabinho will be our best bet on our 9a climate... but it seems to be also one of those that can take longer to fruit.

I've seen that Helton mentions a totally decidous Jabo that he calls "Jaboticaba apimentada" (Hot-spicy jabo) or something like that... I wish I could try that one someday!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 03:02:09 AM by Miguel.pt »

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2014, 05:02:23 PM »
from least cold sensitive to most...species of same color have about the same cold tolerance..also tried to list them in order, from least sensitive to most...so the lower down the list, the more sensitive it will be.

approx 25F critical when mature
M. jaboticaba
M. cauliflora
M. trunciflora
M. cauliflora hybrid (Red Jabo)
M. spirito-santensis (Grimal)


approx 27F critical when mature
P. edulis
P. rivularis
M. strigipes
M. coronota (many varieties, with different sensitivities...var restinga seems sensitive!)
M. phitrantha
M. aureana
M. grandifolia
M. glazioviana


approx 28F critical when mature
M. vexator
M. dubia


I have no experience with M. tenella, but I know it is one of the most cold hearty...
also have no experience with M. oblongata, but I believe it is quite cold tolerant...somewhere between M. jaboticaba, and M. coronata.

I also believe M. floribunda is also quite cold tolarant, but have not personal experience.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 05:05:46 PM by ASaffron »

Miguel.pt

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2014, 05:26:06 PM »
I've remembered now that I have another one here that Helton says can support -6 degrees Celsius.

I think it is the "Cambui amarelo" (Myrciaria cuspidata?)... but not totally sure because it did not fruited yet.... someday I will try one of these outside too.

Marcos, the South Brasilian / Uruguayan species will be our best bets for sure

huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2014, 10:12:28 PM »
Hi Miguel, all this information is valuable, thanks. Then the Jaboticaba who died was young, 4 or 5 years does not produce a very high tree or a very thick trunk.

Also, we dont know why did it died, and I guess it had no frost protection at all.

Small Myrciaria trunciflora surviving -5º C/23ºF (or less, as you can get -6ºC/21ºF  there) would be great!

Jaboticaba apimentada sounds good too! maybe it resists more than -7º C/19ºF? would be great

Please take care of this bigger M. truncifolia in your GH, will you cold acclimate it? see: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=10481.0

Didnt knew MYRCIARIA DELICATULA (http://www.colecionandofrutas.org/myrciariadelicatula.htm), it seems very tasty too, sweeter than uvaia+araza

"Marcos, the South Brasilian / Uruguayan species will be our best bets for sure", yes, m. sabara grows in the argentinian north, my sabaras are from Paraguay.

Adam: "I have no experience with M. tenella, but I know it is one of the most cold hearty", for sure it should be! some months ago I was looking for jabos from Uruguay, and it's maybe the only one that grows there in the wild (http://datos.sndb.mincyt.gov.ar/portal/occurrences/992459/).

Your list is very very useful, thanks! maybe we should add the above mentioned species (and I think rivularis should be tougher)

approx 25F critical when mature
M. jaboticaba
M. cauliflora
M. trunciflora
M. cauliflora hybrid (Red Jabo)
M. spirito-santensis (Grimal)

approx 27F critical when mature
P. edulis
P. rivularis
M. strigipes
M. coronota (many varieties, with different sensitivities...var restinga seems sensitive!)
M. phitrantha
M. aureana
M. grandifolia
M. glazioviana

approx 28F critical when mature
M. vexator
M. dubia
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 10:55:36 PM by huertasurbanas »

Tomas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 10:39:32 PM »
Thanks Adam for the list of jaboticabas with temperature hardiness. That's a very good list to keep.

Tomas

huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2014, 11:43:25 AM »
Thanks Adam for the list of jaboticabas with temperature hardiness. That's a very good list to keep.

Tomas


Yes, this is critical info, we should improve it in the next years!

Miguel.pt

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2014, 03:09:55 AM »
Marcos,

I said M.cuspidata... not M. delicatula... but the truth is that I just don't know which one I have here and from the leaf shape I think is the M. cuspidata

Someday I will try a P.rivularis outside too... this species is from south Brasil so I have high hopes on this one too for 9a.

Take care
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 02:08:32 PM by Miguel.pt »

huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2014, 04:55:42 PM »
Marcos,

I said M.cuspidata... not M. delicatula... but the truth is that I just don't know which one I have here and from the leaf shape I think is the M. cuspidata

Someday I will try a P.rivularis outside too... this species is from south Brasil so I have high hopes on this one too fro 9a.

Take care


Ah: http://www.colecionandofrutas.org/myrciariacuspidata.htm
"Planta rústica e bastante adaptável e que resiste a baixas temperaturas (até – 6 graus)" and maybe less...

plinia rivularis looks so good! I think I can get some trees too, keep us posted!

huertasurbanas

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 10:08:17 PM »
So, for now, we know that the most cold hardy ones are:

Myrciaria trunciflora
M.cuspidata
Jaboticaba apimentada
m. delicatula
m. tenella
plinia rivularis

Do you know some other cold hardy (less than 25º F) jabo?

Anyway, I think (as some people told) that m. jaboticaba can survive in a 9a zone if -maybe- more than 15 years old or so.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 10:25:37 PM by huertasurbanas »

Mango Stein

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2015, 10:29:55 AM »
Adam,
What do you mean by 'critical temperature'? Is that the point at which a mature tree will die or just when it will really start to suffer/lose leaves and stems?
There's no such thing as "ultra tropical"

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2015, 01:16:00 PM »
Adam,
What do you mean by 'critical temperature'? Is that the point at which a mature tree will die or just when it will really start to suffer/lose leaves and stems?

Mango Stein,

critical temp is one that may cause fatal harm, but doesn't mean it will definitely kill the tree.

looking back at my ranking of Myrciaria/Plinia cold sensitivity, it needs to be revised!  there's some info on there that's not quite accurate!

Plinia edulis can take more cold than I gave it credit for, I believe the critical temp is closer to 25F....and M. trunciflora is one of the most cold tolerant, supposedly being able to withstand brief exposure to temps around 22F...

and there are still more corrections that need to be made...


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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2016, 09:48:50 AM »
I would love to know more about the M. Trunciflora varieties.
I  have killed so many Jabo's in their indoor seedling stages already, that I was a bit turned away from Jaboticaba's. I figured they are just too delicate to grow. But now that I learned that in the south of Brasil and north of Argentina, they mainly grow named varieties of M. Trunciflora, I think it might be worth trying to find the cold hardiest variety again. Some of my small Red ones are outside now, taking some regular -2 C frosts and looking pretty good.

Luis, or Miguel, do you have any more precise information on this legendary Jaboticaba in Braga, the north of Portugal? If this one is for real, it is probably the most northern Jaboticaba, grown outside in Europe. I would love to check this out on my next trip to Portugal, so if you have any concrete information, please let me know.


Luisport

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2016, 10:16:29 AM »
I would love to know more about the M. Trunciflora varieties.
I  have killed so many Jabo's in their indoor seedling stages already, that I was a bit turned away from Jaboticaba's. I figured they are just too delicate to grow. But now that I learned that in the south of Brasil and north of Argentina, they mainly grow named varieties of M. Trunciflora, I think it might be worth trying to find the cold hardiest variety again. Some of my small Red ones are outside now, taking some regular -2 C frosts and looking pretty good.

Luis, or Miguel, do you have any more precise information on this legendary Jaboticaba in Braga, the north of Portugal? If this one is for real, it is probably the most northern Jaboticaba, grown outside in Europe. I would love to check this out on my next trip to Portugal, so if you have any concrete information, please let me know.
Hi! Yes it's true, i saw photos... this jaboticaba it's in Felipe house in Braga... You can contact him here: https://www.facebook.com/SitioDasFrutasRaras

Miguel.pt

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2016, 02:29:50 PM »
I would love to know more about the M. Trunciflora varieties.
I  have killed so many Jabo's in their indoor seedling stages already, that I was a bit turned away from Jaboticaba's. I figured they are just too delicate to grow. But now that I learned that in the south of Brasil and north of Argentina, they mainly grow named varieties of M. Trunciflora, I think it might be worth trying to find the cold hardiest variety again. Some of my small Red ones are outside now, taking some regular -2 C frosts and looking pretty good.

Luis, or Miguel, do you have any more precise information on this legendary Jaboticaba in Braga, the north of Portugal? If this one is for real, it is probably the most northern Jaboticaba, grown outside in Europe. I would love to check this out on my next trip to Portugal, so if you have any concrete information, please let me know.

Hi Solko,
You don't need to search any further for M. trunciflora... I happen to know someone that can get one for you... that person is me of course!

The jaboticaba in Braga is currently growing inside a GH, although the owner said it spent some years outside... even if Braga can have a 9a climate the owners place is located in a slope so I suspect this can help to drain the cold.
The owner says it is a Sabará but I have some doubts because the leaves seem too big for Sabará... I suspect it is an Hybrid one but not sure yet... last visit I collected some branches that I tried to graft in one of mine but to soon to say if I was lucky or not... my last visit was when I decided to take the afternoon off and go to Oporto just to collect your parcel...remember?!

Take care my friend
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 02:37:25 PM by Miguel.pt »

Solko

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2016, 01:36:28 PM »
Thank you Luis, for the info on that Jaboticaba. If it is really outside, that would be pretty amazing. In any case, his greenhouse looks very interesting!


Hey Miguel,

Thank you so much, that is very generous of you, again!  :) I would love to get some seeds or a plant of M. Trunciflora of you when I will visit Portugal this year.
I am very curious to see this Jaboticaba in Braga. What a funny coincidence that you went to see that place the same day you picked up my package  :D
In any case, if the Trunciflora would be able to handle the climate in the North of Portugal, that would be great news. Of all the Myrtaceae I tried, I find the Jaboticaba's pretty demanding - hard to germinate, slow to grow, and hard to get to a decent size in my pots further up north. I was hoping that once in the ground they would do better, because they would get rainwater. It is just the cold tolerance that worries me. And maybe the drought in summer.

Good growing!

Solko

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2016, 04:59:39 AM »
Here is a report on my potted Myrtaceae in the snowy Alps.




We are having a very mild winter, with regular frost at night, but never more than -3 Celsius. That means that all my Feijoa, Ugni and hardy Myrtaceae stayed outside all winter, some in the ground, but most of them in pots. Even though these are pretty frost hardy, they really suffer from the snow - their wood is too soft to take the load and branches can break.




I even have Guabiju seedlings that are only six months old sitting outside in the frost and they are taking it like a champ.




Solko

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Re: jaboticabas and zone 9a
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2016, 05:21:01 AM »
I have kept my other potted Myrtaceae outside under an overhang. And apart from one week in which the temperature didn't come above freezing during the day, they have stayed outside all winter so far. That spot is the lowest spot in my yard, so it is also a cold sink and won't protect them from the cold, but the plants do get some protection from the snow.
In this picture are Strawberry Guava, Red Jaboticaba, M Delicatula, Uvaia, Cherry of the Rio Grande, Sour Orange, Campomanesia Xanthocarpa and Psidium Myrtoides.
Most of them are two or three years old. They have taken the nightly frosts extremely well so far, I only have had damage to the upper branches of my Cherry of the Rio Grande and my Myrciaria Delicatula(1 and a half years old this winter)



Here a close up of the damage on M. Delicatula: some burnt leaves and top branches. What amazes me is that the Red jaboticaba and the Uvaia in the background haven't even lost a single leaf. So that does suggest the Red jabo should be pretty hardy when it gets even bigger and older...



Those two just look green and happy, while C Xanthocarpa, Cherry of the RG, Psidium Myrtoides and also even my Pitanga - reported to be pretty cold hardy - have all lost some or most of their leaves and look a bit miserable.



 

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